Avatar review thread

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Post Reply
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by NecronLord »

Starglider wrote:The fluff, and in particular, the game. The fluff actually has a point though, since (a) the flux vortex jams all comms and sensors but somehow not the avatar link running off a little portable generator,
Easily reconciled. At no point in the film did I think there was more to the flux vortex than 'shitloads of floating rocks overwhelm our cheap radar computers' processing abilities.' It doesn't jam comms, at least not short range ones, witness Quadrich talking to all his other little helicopters, and Jake saying 'Brother' a lot with that neck-comm thing they had.
and (b) Sully was able to travel around a whole continent recruiting people, without suffering link dropout, without the RDA being able to trace his signal, while still running off that little portable generator.
This is more iffy, though it does assume that the methodology isn't something more esoteric such as quantum entanglement, or for that matter, isn't just run by a suite of satellites that the scientists have control over.
I'd also note that there is no way in hell you could get the necessary bandwidth for a full-sensory link with a conventional radio signal, without being limited to line of sight (due to being forced to use microwave frequencies). The only plausible explanation would be a global network of satellite relays in low orbit (which still won't work due to rain fade and vegetation, but hey), but we know that no such network exists because if it did the RDA could trivially terminate Sully's Avatar link after he goes rogue.
Assuming the scientists who absconded weren't the guys with the keys to that.

I can imagine Parker Selfridge's face as they propose trying to take out a sattellite network that probably costs one metric shitton, just to get one guy, who yes, is causing trouble, but is really just going to get his avatar shot in the face if they don't.

In comparison, you are proposing it runs off magic man. Magic. I don't know what the 'fluff' says, but it sounds awful fishy to me. And really, really lame when most of the film is very good scientifically. Much like mysterious FTL-comms from the rock.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Starglider
Miles Dyson
Posts: 8709
Joined: 2007-04-05 09:44pm
Location: Isle of Dogs
Contact:

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Starglider »

NecronLord wrote:I don't know what the 'fluff' says, but it sounds awful fishy to me.
The main objective of the game is finding three psychic crystals, that are the key to hacking into Ewya... so yeah.
Junghalli
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5001
Joined: 2004-12-21 10:06pm
Location: Berkeley, California (USA)

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Junghalli »

Anguirus wrote:It's just an astonishing coincidence that on the next star over there is a moon with a rainforest with a bunch of near-humans cavorting about in it. Keep in mind that hominids have only existed on this planet for a tiny slice of its history.
I already said the Na'Vi struck me as way too humanoid. I can forgive it though, as Cameron pretty obviously made them that way so they would be naturally sympathetic to the audience. It would be harder to get people to sympathize with something that looked truly alien.
I also thought that many of the trees, shrubs, and mushrooms looked very Earth-like, though I'm no botanist so I can't pick out species or anything.
Some of the plant life did look pretty Earthlike compared to the animals. On the other hand the general design of a trunk with branches ending in big flat photosynthetic organs is a pretty sound one, so it seems pretty plausible that it would evolve elsewhere.
1) What is proto-Eywa?
Some plant that's learned to hijack the chemical signals used to communicate by some species of animal and "domesticate" them.
2) How does a SINGLE species kill EVERYTHING else? Natural selection doesn't work the way you think it does (some populations can explode and slaughter a lot of other species but not remotely close to everything).
A single INTELLIGENT species killing off everything else I could easily see. Look at the damage humans do to the ecosystem in the process of optimizing it to our own needs (i.e. turning it into farms and cities). I'm thinking Eywa probably only began its really massive re-engineering of the biosphere after it had already developed sapience.

The obvious way to do it would be to use that domesticated animal I spoke of as its proxies and have them hunt all the other megafauna to extinction. Hmm, it would probably have to be a fairly sophisticated and intelligent tool-user in its own right to do that. Proto-Na'Vi? Although that doesn't seem to fit that well with the way they seem to be so different from other lifeforms. Maybe the mysterious builders of that suspiciously artificial-looking structure that holds the soul-tree?
3) What advantage do the "proto-Eywans" gain that outweighs the energy cost of growing these "bio-links" that is SO overwhelming that they brush aside all competitors?

The bio-links strike me as some pretty crazy "over-engineering" for natural selection, since the most plausible scenario that comes to mind (plants conveying accurate status information to their pollinators) could be accomplished just as easily with the bioluminesence they already exhibit.
That's why I'm thinking the control didn't start out as bio-links. It started out as pheremone signalling or something like that. The bio-links evolved after the initial domestication relationship was already well-established, and obviously evolved to facilitate better control.
I would expect that a little network of plants and animals that tries to kill everything else is going to do little more than kill itself off.
Not if it's sapient and its opponents aren't.
However, let's engage in a little invasion ecology. Say that there's an isolated island on Pandora that has none of the Eywa-connected plants and animals that we see in the film. How does the Eywa-system penetrate this?
In the film they describe Eywa's network as planet-wide and orbital shots show Pandora to have multiple landmasses, so if we take that at face value it apparently extends under the ocean somehow. I figured the network extends to marine life as well as terrestrial.
Why do these trees need to communicate? Remember, all communication systems cost energy, and these super-specialized neural link-ups even more so.
Probably to facilitate its "gardening" of the ecology to be more favorable to itself, which probably works better the more area it can control, and a unified network might be more cooperative than a large number of independent trees, which might start to compete and fight with each other. Making itself bigger would also allow it to increase its intelligence.
Moreover, it's unclear how Eywa would wreak its will. It' s not at all clear from the film that it can give orders other than "charge" and "link up with the blue chick."
If it can manipulate huge numbers of animals of different species to attack some specific thing it doesn't like I think it's reasonable to think it can probably manipulate animal behavior in other ways.

Edit:
Anguirus wrote:"Why do these trees need to communicate?" That was poorly phrased. Trees on this world communicate with each other all the time, using mostly chemical modalities. What evolutionary imperative gives you sessile, photosynthetic, enormous organisms that communicate with each other lightning-fast? If this evolved in response to some massive threat (say, herbivores analogous to Earth sauropods, or some kind of super-locust) then why is it still maintained in the apparent absence of the threat?
Perhaps because the threat passed when Eywa developed sapience and massively re-engineered the entire biosphere. After which point the communication network was very useful to it, facilitating its gardening of the ecology and allowing it to retain intelligence.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by NecronLord »

Starglider wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I don't know what the 'fluff' says, but it sounds awful fishy to me.
The main objective of the game is finding three psychic crystals, that are the key to hacking into Ewya... so yeah.
*Eyetwitches*

Who says they're psychic?
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Anguirus »

Don't have time to write a long response to Junghalli and PeZook (maybe later Junghalli, you raise some pretty cool points). However, I think you (especially PeZook) are getting the wrong idea. I think the environment created in this movie is an outstanding achievement. I just don't think it's literally realistic. I don't think the movie actually would *work* if it attempted to create a realistic extrasolar ecosystem, so this isn't a criticism of the film. I was just trying to qualify my earlier response to Starglider.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Serafina »

NecronLord wrote:
Starglider wrote:
NecronLord wrote:I don't know what the 'fluff' says, but it sounds awful fishy to me.
The main objective of the game is finding three psychic crystals, that are the key to hacking into Ewya... so yeah.
*Eyetwitches*

Who says they're psychic?
Right off the Wiki:
The Avatar Program was initiated to improve communication with the Na’vi, the intelligent humanoid inhabitants of Pandora. Human volunteers are paired with avatars, which are artificially created human/Na’vi hybrids controlled by persona-projection technology. While the human controller remains in a sleep-like state in a psionic link unit, his or her personality inhabits and completely controls a custom-made Na’vi body.
Definately has the word "psionic", aka "psychic" in it.
Granted, it could mean some kind of sophisticated technology and just be a fancy word for it...but there you have it.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by PeZook »

Anguirus wrote:Don't have time to write a long response to Junghalli and PeZook (maybe later Junghalli, you raise some pretty cool points). However, I think you (especially PeZook) are getting the wrong idea. I think the environment created in this movie is an outstanding achievement. I just don't think it's literally realistic. I don't think the movie actually would *work* if it attempted to create a realistic extrasolar ecosystem, so this isn't a criticism of the film. I was just trying to qualify my earlier response to Starglider.
Ah, sorry then. I thought you were criticizing the movie for not being realistic enough.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
User avatar
Sarevok
The Fearless One
Posts: 10681
Joined: 2002-12-24 07:29am
Location: The Covenants last and final line of defense

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Sarevok »

Regarding psychic communications between creatures and Ewya and Jake and his Avatar body - why can't psychic communication mean it uses radio waves ? It could a biologically developed radio transmitter and receiver. Pandora creatures already have USB tentacle tethers and electric communications networking between trees so a radio would not be too far fetched.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Serafina »

Sarevok wrote:Regarding psychic communications between creatures and Ewya and Jake and his Avatar body - why can't psychic communication mean it uses radio waves ? It could a biologically developed radio transmitter and receiver. Pandora creatures already have USB tentacle tethers and electric communications networking between trees so a radio would not be too far fetched.
What i said - it could just be a fancy name for some kind of technological device.
Heck, if we had a device for mind-to-mind communication, i could actually imagine that it could be named "psychic".

But nontheless, it IS an indication for, well, magic. A weak one (you know, the old "name"-thing), but it's there.
Since we do not KNOW how it works and it is not contradicted by any effects, it is actually possible.

Still, since it needs an technological device, i still think it's a fancy name for some kind of technology.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
Junghalli
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5001
Joined: 2004-12-21 10:06pm
Location: Berkeley, California (USA)

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Junghalli »

Anguirus wrote:Don't have time to write a long response to Junghalli and PeZook (maybe later Junghalli, you raise some pretty cool points). However, I think you (especially PeZook) are getting the wrong idea. I think the environment created in this movie is an outstanding achievement. I just don't think it's literally realistic. I don't think the movie actually would *work* if it attempted to create a realistic extrasolar ecosystem, so this isn't a criticism of the film. I was just trying to qualify my earlier response to Starglider.
Well, yeah, I'll grant Eywa is definitely a stretch. I can imagine ways in which such a thing might concievably evolve but I wouldn't exactly consider the set-up we see plausible. I was simply pointing out that I don't think it's one of those things that absolutely falls apart when you try to look at it rationally.
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Guardsman Bass »

You know, I'm curious - the pandorapedia mentions that the Na'vi have basically stayed the same for a long time because of Eywa ensuring a fairly regular supply of food for them to use. Does that apply to most of the other megafauna? Does Eywa ensure that the Thanators never grow enough in terms of numbers to cause a crash in their prey populations and the like?

Obviously, that wouldn't eliminate Random Genetic Drift, but it would definitely be something interesting for a hypothetical xenobiologist.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by NecronLord »

I'm calling extraordinary claims on psychics by the way. I never saw any evidence of it being magic; other than the name, is there any other evidence of psychic-ness?
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Rye
To Mega Therion
Posts: 12493
Joined: 2003-03-08 07:48am
Location: Uighur, please!

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Rye »

NecronLord wrote:I'm calling extraordinary claims on psychics by the way. I never saw any evidence of it being magic; other than the name, is there any other evidence of psychic-ness?
Psychic doesn't necessarily mean magical telepathy or seeing the future or whatever; it could just be mind-related technologies, which is the true meaning of psychic. For example: "when one tries to speak freely about what comes in his/her mind in relation to a word of his/her free choice, the lines of thoughts are related each other and focus on an unconscious psychic complex." A mechanical telepathy isn't too crazy an idea anyway, and I like the idea of that MRI being an entanglement machine, since their nervous systems are close enough to work the same.
EBC|Fucking Metal|Artist|Androgynous Sexfiend|Gozer Kvltist|
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by NecronLord »

Magic telepathy is pretty clearly the meaning intended though. My point is that it's not necesserily magic telepathy just because it's called psychic.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
[R_H]
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2894
Joined: 2007-08-24 08:51am
Location: Europe

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by [R_H] »

The floating mountains, do they float because there's a lot of unobtainium in them?
User avatar
Zor
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5928
Joined: 2004-06-08 03:37am

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Zor »

[R_H] wrote:The floating mountains, do they float because there's a lot of unobtainium in them?
Yes, this is well established in secondary materials.

Zor
HAIL ZOR! WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
Heros of Cybertron-HAB-Keeper of the Vicious pit of Allosauruses-King Leighton-I, United Kingdom of Zoria: SD.net World/Tsar Mikhail-I of the Red Tsardom: SD.net Kingdoms
WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL
Terran Sphere
The Art of Zor
User avatar
Spoonist
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2405
Joined: 2002-09-20 11:15am

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Spoonist »

Zor wrote:
[R_H] wrote:The floating mountains, do they float because there's a lot of unobtainium in them?
Yes, this is well established in secondary materials.

Zor
Which is kind of funny, since to me it would not be best to have the ground level mining operations on a "metal" that floats, instead it would be going for the things that... you know... float? Like hoarding in those floating rocks would probably have a really good concentration of the stuff.
Not to mention plain detonating the rocks to seperate the high grade stuff which would go up, from the low grade stuff which would fall down.
:D
But then we wouldn't have such a neat movie, would we...
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5196
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by LaCroix »

These rocks are something the people at home like... Halleluja Mountains... It would be _very_ bad PR to carve them up...

Also, mining one of them could mean that the system keeping them afloat might collapse, with you sitting on top or under that falling piece of rock...
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
Aratech
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2006-11-04 04:11pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Aratech »

Sorry to ask, but I just saw the movie yesterday. Is it okay to post a quasi-review/opinion of what I saw? I ask because it seems rather late in the game to give that kind of 'thoughts on subject X'.
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Anguirus »

Well, yeah, I'll grant Eywa is definitely a stretch. I can imagine ways in which such a thing might concievably evolve but I wouldn't exactly consider the set-up we see plausible. I was simply pointing out that I don't think it's one of those things that absolutely falls apart when you try to look at it rationally.
Well that saves me time. I don't think we actually disagree on much, if anything. :)

I wonder if I can somehow pervert my ecology class discussion tomorrow into talking about Pandora... :P
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by NecronLord »

Aratech wrote:Sorry to ask, but I just saw the movie yesterday. Is it okay to post a quasi-review/opinion of what I saw? I ask because it seems rather late in the game to give that kind of 'thoughts on subject X'.
Of course it's allright.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
[R_H]
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2894
Joined: 2007-08-24 08:51am
Location: Europe

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by [R_H] »

Audiences experience 'Avatar' blues
James Cameron's completely immersive spectacle "Avatar" may have been a little too real for some fans who say they have experienced depression and suicidal thoughts after seeing the film because they long to enjoy the beauty of the alien world Pandora.

On the fan forum site "Avatar Forums," a topic thread entitled "Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible," has received more than 1,000 posts from people experiencing depression and fans trying to help them cope. The topic became so popular last month that forum administrator Philippe Baghdassarian had to create a second thread so people could continue to post their confused feelings about the movie.

"I wasn't depressed myself. In fact the movie made me happy ," Baghdassarian said. "But I can understand why it made people depressed. The movie was so beautiful and it showed something we don't have here on Earth. I think people saw we could be living in a completely different world and that caused them to be depressed."

A post by a user called Elequin expresses an almost obsessive relationship with the film.

"That's all I have been doing as of late, searching the Internet for more info about 'Avatar.' I guess that helps. It's so hard I can't force myself to think that it's just a movie, and to get over it, that living like the Na'vi will never happen. I think I need a rebound movie," Elequin posted.

A user named Mike wrote on the fan Web site "Naviblue" that he contemplated suicide after seeing the movie."Ever since I went to see 'Avatar' I have been depressed. Watching the wonderful world of Pandora and all the Na'vi made me want to be one of them. I can't stop thinking about all the things that happened in the film and all of the tears and shivers I got from it," Mike posted. "I even contemplate suicide thinking that if I do it I will be rebirthed in a world similar to Pandora and the everything is the same as in 'Avatar.' "

Other fans have expressed feelings of disgust with the human race and disengagement with reality.

Cameron's movie, which has pulled in more than $1.4 billion in worldwide box office sales and could be on track to be the highest grossing film of all time, is set in the future when the Earth's resources have been pillaged by the human race. A greedy corporation is trying to mine the rare mineral unobtainium from the planet Pandora, which is inhabited by a peace-loving race of 10-foot tall, blue-skinned natives called the Na'vi.

In their race to mine for Pandora's resources, the humans clash with the Na'vi, leading to casualties on both sides. The world of Pandora is reminiscent of a prehistoric fantasyland, filled with dinosaur-like creatures mixed with the kinds of fauna you may find in the deep reaches of the ocean. Compared with life on Earth, Pandora is a beautiful, glowing utopia.

Ivar Hill posts to the "Avatar" forum page under the name Eltu. He wrote about his post-"Avatar" depression after he first saw the film earlier this month.

"When I woke up this morning after watching Avatar for the first time yesterday, the world seemed ... gray. It was like my whole life, everything I've done and worked for, lost its meaning," Hill wrote on the forum. "It just seems so ... meaningless. I still don't really see any reason to keep ... doing things at all. I live in a dying world."

Reached via e-mail in Sweden where he is studying game design, Hill, 17, explained that his feelings of despair made him desperately want to escape reality.

"One can say my depression was twofold: I was depressed because I really wanted to live in Pandora, which seemed like such a perfect place, but I was also depressed and disgusted with the sight of our world, what we have done to Earth. I so much wanted to escape reality," Hill said.

Cameron's special effects masterpiece is very lifelike, and the 3-D performance capture and CGI effects essentially allow the viewer to enter the alien world of Pandora for the movie's 2½-hour running time, which only lends to the separation anxiety some individuals experience when they depart the movie theater.

"Virtual life is not real life and it never will be, but this is the pinnacle of what we can build in a virtual presentation so far," said Dr. Stephan Quentzel, psychiatrist and Medical Director for the Louis Armstrong Center for Music and Medicine at Beth Israel Medical Center in New York. "It has taken the best of our technology to create this virtual world and real life will never be as utopian as it seems onscreen. It makes real life seem more imperfect."

Fans of the movie may find actor Stephen Lang, who plays the villainous Col. Miles Quaritch in the film, an enemy of the Na'vi people and their sacred ground, an unlikely sympathizer. But Lang says he can understand the connection people are feeling with the movie.

"Pandora is a pristine world and there is the synergy between all of the creatures of the planet and I think that strikes a deep chord within people that has a wishfulness and a wistfulness to it," Lang said. "James Cameron had the technical resources to go along with this incredibly fertile imagination of his and his dream is built out of the same things that other peoples' dreams are made of."

The bright side is that for Hill and others like him -- who became dissatisfied with their own lives and with our imperfect world after enjoying the fictional creation of James Cameron -- becoming a part of a community of like-minded people on an online forum has helped them emerge from the darkness.

"After discussing on the forums for a while now, my depression is beginning to fade away. Having taken a part in many discussions concerning all this has really, really helped me," Hill said. "Before, I had lost the reason to keep on living -- but now it feels like these feelings are gradually being replaced with others."

Quentzel said creating relationships with others is one of the keys to human happiness, and that even if those connections are occurring online they are better than nothing.

"Obviously there is community building in these forums," Quentzel said. "It may be technologically different from other community building, but it serves the same purpose."

Within the fan community, suggestions for battling feelings of depression after seeing the movie include things like playing "Avatar" video games or downloading the movie soundtrack, in addition to encouraging members to relate to other people outside the virtual realm and to seek out positive and constructive activities.
User avatar
Ryan Thunder
Village Idiot
Posts: 4139
Joined: 2007-09-16 07:53pm
Location: Canada

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Ryan Thunder »

*checks to see if it's an onion article*

Uh oh... Please tell me CNN does joke articles. :P
SDN Worlds 5: Sanctum
User avatar
Aratech
Jedi Knight
Posts: 627
Joined: 2006-11-04 04:11pm
Location: Right behind you

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Aratech »

NecronLord wrote:
Aratech wrote:Sorry to ask, but I just saw the movie yesterday. Is it okay to post a quasi-review/opinion of what I saw? I ask because it seems rather late in the game to give that kind of 'thoughts on subject X'.
Of course it's allright.

Okay. My thanks, Sir. I just hope I don't accidentally trigger a flame war. I've never really done an in depth movie review/rating before. :?




Avatar Review

James Cameron's Avatar, is to say the least, a Box Office blockbuster that puts Michal Bay to shame and is turning other directors greener than the dollar bills that Cameron is probably swimming through right now in his homage to Scrooge McDuck. That he has performed what is essentially the wet dream of every director in Hollywood (again) is praiseworthy, but this is not to say that Avatar is without its flaws.

Below, I shall break the film into four major categories: Story. Characters. Visual/Audio medium. Acting. Beyond that, bonus points may be awarded for miscellaneous things, or point deducted for things that I do not like. This is scored between 1 and 10 for each categories, with the miscellaneous contributing points towards the final averaged score. For this purpose, a 10 would be, say, the likes of Terminator 2, the Empire Strikes Back, Return of the King, The Dark Knight, etc. 5 is decidedly average, something that usually comes out of Hollywood to try and make more money than it cost to produce with the hope of nabbing an Oscar in a specific category, such as Superman Returns or the older Hulk movie. 1 would be anything directed by Uwe Boll or similar garbage, such as Batman and Robin or Star Trek V.

Now then, onto the review.

Characters:

Some of Avatars characters are good, others are not so good. To start with, Jake Sully, is a man that I had trouble sympathizing with, beyond the 'oh, I've lost my legs and can't afford to have the spinal surgery done, boohoo, boohoo' and being so obviously thrust in over his head that its not even funny. His job is to find a diplomatic solution to the mutual problems besetting both sides of the conflict (namely that the Na'Vi obviously don't want to leave their homes, and the RDA wants what's underneath their home, and aren't taking no for an answer.) His job is to gain their trust, this justifies him keeping the deadline a secret until after they've started to accept him. However, once that time passes, he has an obligation to these people who have overcome their prejudice, and who have accepted them into their lives, despite knowing full freaking well what he is, to warn them of the danger. Does he 'man up' and confess to them what his purpose is? No. He doesn't tell them he's been gathering information on them. But that's not the issue. He doesn't even have the decency to inform them that in X number of days, the Sky People are going to show up, and they're going to smash them so badly that it'll make getting eaten by those wolf creatures look downright pleasant by comparison.

Even on the final night of the deadline, when the RDA tells him, "The dozers arrive tomorrow. You've got till then to spill your guts, give them the 411, and get them out of there, or really bad stuff is going to happen." What does he do? Does he bolt to tell them of the danger, does he tell the Chief, who has taken him in against his better judgment, what is going to happen? No. He's busy screwing his daughter (something that he should know better than, as she's betrothed to another man (so we can add 'adulterer' to his list of unsympathetic qualities) and he's fully aware of just what kind of an epic level shitstorm he's going to stir up by doing so.

Once Hometree is so much firewood, he then decides that gathering them up to assault the RDA homebase is the right fine thing to do despite knowing how badly they'll get mauled in a best case circumstance. This is even though he knows the RDA will not bother the Na'Vi again, as they have what they want. And he does this by invoking Mighty Whitey so badly it hurts, but more on that later.

Our antagonist suffers from the same unlikeability, but for different reasons (as again, you're not generally supposed to 'like' the antagonist). Quaritch is a badass, to be sure. One of the best in recent cinema. Unfortunately, that's all he is. There is no depth to his character. He's a flat strawman of every remotely enthusiastic military man in the history of mankind. He has no backstory, no depth beyond channeling the spirit of a Khornite Beserker so hard that I was half expecting him to yell 'Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!' when he was fighting Jake at the end. He is utterly flat, and Cameron apparently hoped that by invoking the spirit of every Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, Jackie Chan, and Sean Connery character in existence, people would perhaps look past this. I am not amused.

Nor can Cameron attempt to pass it off by comparing Quaritch to other somewhat one dimensional antagonists in the past like the Xenomorphs or the Terminators. The Colonel is not some unthinking, bestial alien, nor is he an assassination robot with a single overriding directive and a one track mind. He is a human being. A man who was presumably skilled enough to be placed in charge of security for what is arguably the most important colony in human existence. He does not respond like that. He acts like a beast with barely contained aggression and a whole host of mental problems that make you wonder how he even passed a basic psych examination. This is not a man who should be placed at the head of security of such an important and fragile operation, and I cannot find it in myself to believe that the RDA would be bonkers enough to place him in charge. The other two 'main' antagonistic marines suffer the same fate. They are utterly irredeemable, no depth of character. They are bad, bad men (with the token black guy to possibly avoid invoking Unfortunate Implications) and we are to feel no sympathy for them whatsoever. Riiiiiight. Because the RDA is going to, at the cost of several hundred million dollars a piece, ship out a defense force consisting solely of triggerhappy, borderline nutcases to protect an extraordinarily valuable colony years away from any help in a situation that gives new definition to the meaning of the word 'delicate.'

Our Corporate Slimeball is the same. Utterly unlikeable, to the point where we are apparently supposed to want to shoot him in the face despite only knowing him for five minutes. Cameron certainly succeeded if that was his intent. Unfortunately, Slimeball (I cannot be arsed to remember his name, and I don't think he's worthy of one, as once again, he's not a character so much as a strawman for everything bad about corporate capitalism). The man is utterly fucking incompetent. He has no idea about the world he's supposed to be 'governing', no desire to learn about what he's supposed to be overseeing, and acts like he's stoned out of his head half of the time without a care in the world.

And I'm supposed to believe that the RDA, a corporation massive enough to singlehandedly fund something like this, is going to put this lughead in charge? A man so massively incompetent at even number crunching that he cannot realize what I, someone with no business training or capitalist market specialization whatsoever, noticed within thirty seconds of seeing it: that the Na'Vi have theoretical, maybe actual, immortality at their disposal, and the fact that if you can figure out how to corner that market, that you will make profits that will make the Unobtanium mining look like bloody pocket change! This is derived from the simple notion that people will pay through the nose to stay alive for five more minutes. Let alone five more millennia.

Again, riiiiiight.

Fortunately for Avatar, Supporting Human Cast to the rescue! Sigourney's character, Grace, represents a properly fleshed out, fully rounded human being. She is short tempered with people she doesn't like, and has a very hard 'shell' around her character. Fortunately, though, she softens once you get to know her. A tad cliché perhaps, but Sigourney Weaver is a talented enough actress to pull it off and make it look believable. Most of the other nonmilitary supporting cast and the defecting pilot (whom I shall fondly call Vasquez as she does remind me much of said character from Aliens) have flaws and positive character traits well mixed together. You don't save this, guys, but you do help it a lot.

The Na'Vi are somewhat one dimensional as well, with the exception of Neytiri (though she's a tad skitso at first (reactions to Jake) she fleshes herself out sufficiently before the end). She goes through a wide range of situations, and has a set of humanlike emotions to compliment them. The watcher can feel her anger, helpless rage, her love, her hopes, and her fears. Her voice actress is also talented enough to match this dynamic character and keep up with the rigorous demands of her role. Aside from her, though, everyone just feels… flat. Testru is there to be 'macho tough guy/rival for female's affections' who we all know the moment we meet him will come to eventually accept Jake, despite Jake effectively supplanting him from the job he's been groomed for since his birth. The Chief and Shaman likewise are there to channel 'wise old Indian' to the point where it's about as subtle as a Barbarian Horde.

Though I must note that I do not sense this supposed 'anti-technology' vibe from the Na'Vi that some at Spacebattles have chanted and shouted about. I see them turning down medicine of unknown quality in exchange for their homes, which is logical and very humanlike. As has been said in other areas: Eminent Domain exists and is a conferred power of the Federal Government for a damn good reason.

Overall rating: 5.5 out of 10. The Human protagonist, and his two antagonists are either unlikable or flatter than the sheet of notebook paper that I doodled on while waiting for the 24.5 minutes worth of previews to just, freaking, end. For the Na'Vi, it is reversed, with only the protagonist having much real depth. The supporting cast, though, combined with Neytiri's well rounded character, manage to keep this above the average mark.


Story:

….
….
….
Where to begin? This is certainly the weakest part of the movie. I can see why some have termed it Dances With Wolves in SPAAAAAAAACCCCCEEEEE, or Avatar: White Guilt. The Na'Vi channel the old and tired Noble Savage/American Indian so hard that it literally hurts for me to watch it. It's tragic as well, as there was much potential here to do something original, in depth, dare I say, beautiful. And it has been squandered in the name of a morality play about something that we've long since seen is not good. Yes, forcing people off of their land in the name of corporate greed is bad. Yes, killing them for it is bad. I do not deny that the line is clearly drawn.

And there is where the problem lies. The movie is black and white in its morality. 99.9% of the Humans are irredeemably evil, shortsighted, psychotic, or thinking with their little heads. The Na'Vi are 100% saintly. They have no crime. There are no cowards. There is no greed. No internal racism or bigotry. No wars (that we see), they exist in perfect harmony among themselves, the other tribes, and their world to the point where they hate the shedding of blood of predatory animals about to make a snack out of one of their 'own.' There is no grey, no color. The lines are not blurred. And the story suffers for it. Because real life is not so simple.

And worse, in his attempt to portray them as such noble savages (which is also a curiosity for me: why do so many Na'Vi seem to have (I think, keyword think) African accents when speaking English, when they learned English from an American?), Cameron inadvertently invokes Mighty Whitey to the point where I was forced to facepalm a few times. Such as the 'Last Shadow' creature that Jake had to tame to prove that he was the baddest, ballsiest MF'er around. You expect me to believe that a Jarhead with no experience or information on Pandora, with less than 1 hours worth of actual experience observing this aerial apex predator (the majority of which was spent running the hell away from it), was able to figure out something that the Na'Vi hadn't in thousands upon thousands of years? Worse, something so blindly obvious as the fact that as an Apex predator that attacks by diving down, that nothing on this entire world fucks with, it's not going to be watching six o'clock high, a natural ambush position, because nothing in the entire world is crazy enough to do that? (Also, Cameron: you missed an excellent opportunity by just having the screen black out there and not actually showing us how Jake managed this apparent 'miracle').

In short, the story is cliché, old, and ridiculously one sided. This can be fine in some circumstances, such as Schindler's List. But environmentalism and anti-colonialism much be approached more delicately, more subtly, or you risk turning off your audience and doing more harm to your cause than good, ala Captain Planet.

I am not saying that RDA is in the right. Far from it, they were clearly the bad guys here. And any who supported or sided with them, driven home so frequently and with such force as to make A Christmas Carol look downright subtle. But that's it. I've seen more delicacy and depth from Michal 'I like Shit Blowing Up' Bay.

Overall Rating: 2.5 out of 10.

The hopelessly preachy and unoriginality make this, without a doubt, the worst story that Cameron has ever told and put to picture. I've seen Schumacher films with more interesting tales to tell than this.

Goddamnit Cameron. You are better than this.

Audio/Visual:

The strong point for this movie, without a doubt. Credit is to be given where credit is due. And here, it most certainly is. Avatar has done what no other predominantly CGI film has done. It has managed to skirt the uncanny valley for the most part. The Na'Vi and most of Pandora's wildlife look like real creatures. Much like the Prawn from District 9, in the back of your head, you know these things aren't real, but on screen, they do come to life. Cameron's newly invented CGI camera technology is also used to its best here. In short, these are special effects done right (Mr. Bay, if you're watching this movie. Do take notes. This is how it should be done). As it was in Aliens, and in Terminator 2, Cameron has once again raised the bar to a new height, and as far as the visual is concerned, this is the movie that all others, especially sci-fi epics, will be compared to. And it will be a difficult hurdle to clear.

The audio work is similarly spectacular. I've never heard of this James Horner individual before, but the audio track, as well as the ambient life noise from Pandora's wildlife, is some of the best I've ever heard. I can tell you without a doubt, that I shall be purchasing this soundtrack at the first available opportunity.

There are minor glitches here and there (for example, when Quaritch first turns in the AMP suit when he's addressing Jake about getting his legs back, there's a sudden drop in quality of the CGI, but I didn't notice it happening too often), and it is not enough for the score to be affected.


Overall Rating: 10 out of 10.

Masterfully done, Mr. Cameron, masterfully done. You have created something that is a feast for the eyes, as well as for the ears.


Acting:

The second strongest point of the film. Now, while the characters and story are not really very good at all, there is a genuine sense that the actors are giving it their best shot. They don't act like people who are just there for the paycheck, but are really enthusiastic about playing their roles (I suspect for all the character's problems, Quaritch and Slimeball's actors must have been having a field day of the 'I cannot believe I'm getting paid to do this' type). The enthusiasm and skill are wonderful to watch, and Cameron has always been good at pulling skilled performances out of his characters that truly bring them to life. He has once more succeeded here, as have, I feel, all of the characters and voice actors. I enjoyed watching them, and I look forward to seeing more performances by these individuals in the future, especially if (as seems likely) a sequel or even a trilogy is in order, and I wish them well in their careers.

Overall Rating: 9 out of 10.

Again, credit is to be given where credit is due. Hats off to these fellows for an all star performance (again, Mr. Bay, if you're watching this movie, take notes. That goes double for you, Mr. Boll).

Miscellaneous Final Modifiers:

Some good and bad things to add in here.

The Good:

Message. The story is clichéd as all hell, and the path to telling it is botched. But I shall still give it credit for attempting to teach a good moral to the people watching it. With luck, some of them will be able to look past its preachy and over the top nature and see that message. +.5

Attention to detail: Cameron has always been a stickler for this, and I appreciate the effort to remain internally consistent and the attention paid to the little things, that are all too often today glossed over in favor of more explosions and gratuitous T&A for the sake of explosions and gratuitous T&A. +1

The Bad:

Military Incompetence- While not as bad as some films of last couple of decades (I'm looking in the direction of 90% of Star Trek films, the American Godzilla film, and Dragon Wars), there is still gobs of it at the final battle. The biggest thing, even more than sending in a shuttle capable of VTOL for a long, slow glide under the mountains where it's clear from Sat imagery that there's a vertical air corridor straight down that don't involve flying through thousands of meters of Obvious Ambush Territory, was the ability of the Na'Vi to pull off that successful ambush. This can be partially excused due to the problems of the navigation aides, but there's an issue here of common sense and obeying command. Despite being on escort duty against air attack, and everyone being specifically told to keep their heads on a swivel/looking up and that there are thousands of hostiles in the area (of which they've known for years ride around on these banshees), I am supposed to believe that not one person was looking up to spot the ungodly massive cloud of these things that just descended upon them? That no one even bothered to scream 'Heads up!" or the like?

Riiiiiighht.

-.5, for not being as bad as a lot of movies, but still having the military act stupidly in a situation where they really shouldn't. I'm not asking for the second coming of Sun Tzu, just common sense.

Deus Ex Machina- As a English major, I am inclined to despise these things on general principle, except when they're obviously being played for laughs (examples include the otherwise god-awful Spy Kids 3-D (seriously, that 2 hours of my life I still want back (long story involving much younger siblings)) or movies/Arthurian lampooning plays involving Tim Curry) or done extraordinarily well. This was not. The planet, after having the stuffing mined out of it (literally) for at least years, if not decades, and only now, even after they've obliterated a Soul Tree, listens to the 'prayer' of the protagonist (which is conflicting in nature, "We killed our mother? There is no Green? Then what was this Venezuelan bush that Quaritch was going on about and that Jake worked in?) decides 'screw Humanity, get them off of me!' -.5

Final Score: 7.25 out of 10.

Without a doubt, as far as story telling is concerned, this is not Cameron's high point (and I say this as someone heavily in the environmental and 'oppressing people in the name of corporate greed is bad' camps). Visually and Auditorially, this is a masterpiece, but those seeking Oscar level writing should not attend this movie. For those who may be able to turn their brains off and enjoy the visual eyecandy of the movie and special effects, you may feel satisfied. Those seeking good acting should also look here, as there are gems to be found amongst the refuse of the story line and some poorly thought out characters.

Much as it pains me to say it about a film by James Cameron I relegate this to the 'Popcorn Flick' pile. It is, however, still a very, very good popcorn flick. Better than many that have come out of Hollywood of late. I must again stress that this scale places a 5 at an average, much like how Chuck Sonnenburg, AKA SFDebris does his Star Trek reviews. This movie is above average, but it falls short of the greatness that Cameron was hoping for. Still, its strong box office showing gives much hope that there will be future exploration of this universe, and perhaps the kinks can be ironed out, the subjects that were glossed over explored more in depth, correcting the flat characters and perhaps making the Na'Vi less a race of walking Mary-Sues.
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Re: Avatar review thread - NO SPOILERS UNTIL FRIDAY

Post by Anguirus »

^ You've never heard of James Horner? He scored Aliens and Titanic, as well as two Star Trek films. Or did I miss sarcasm?

Anyway, since I talked about the biology stuff, it seems apropos to post Tetrapod Zoology's take on the film's organisms
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
Post Reply