Somalia: Better Off Stateless

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Surlethe
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Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by Surlethe »

You guys all know the classic counterexample to anarcho-libertarianism: Somalia (now Haiti).

Enjoy. :)
Abstract wrote:Could anarchy be good for Somalia’s development? If state predation goes unchecked government may not only fail to add to social welfare, but can actually reduce welfare below its level under statelessness. Such was the case with Somalia’s government, which did more harm to its citizens than good. The government’s collapse and subsequent emergence of statelessness opened the opportunity for Somali progress. This paper uses an “event study” to investigate the impact of anarchy on Somali development. The data suggest that while the state of this development remains low, on nearly all of 18 key indicators that allow pre- and post-stateless welfare comparisons, Somalis are better off under anarchy than they were under government. Renewed vibrancy in critical sectors of Somalia’s economy and public goods in the absence of a predatory state are responsible for this improvement. (JEL: O1, O17)
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by ray245 »

Surlethe wrote:You guys all know the classic counterexample to anarcho-libertarianism: Somalia (now Haiti).

Enjoy. :)
Abstract wrote:Could anarchy be good for Somalia’s development? If state predation goes unchecked government may not only fail to add to social welfare, but can actually reduce welfare below its level under statelessness. Such was the case with Somalia’s government, which did more harm to its citizens than good. The government’s collapse and subsequent emergence of statelessness opened the opportunity for Somali progress. This paper uses an “event study” to investigate the impact of anarchy on Somali development. The data suggest that while the state of this development remains low, on nearly all of 18 key indicators that allow pre- and post-stateless welfare comparisons, Somalis are better off under anarchy than they were under government. Renewed vibrancy in critical sectors of Somalia’s economy and public goods in the absence of a predatory state are responsible for this improvement. (JEL: O1, O17)
Given that they are talking about a government that is on the verge of collapse, I would hardly find such a comparison to be valid.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by Darth Wong »

Well, technically, Somalia's thriving naval piracy industry would count as an example of "Renewed vibrancy in critical sectors of Somalia’s economy".
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

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It would also count as a "revival of sacred traditions, practiced over millennia until they were prohibited by a ruthless state oppression of the pirates' individual freedoms".
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by K. A. Pital »

Ow, man. You could also add to that the following fact - Somalia's fertility rose massively after collapse of government. Woohoo! People must live so good they're giving birth to tons of babies. Or maybe not. Alas, without a government, it's hard to even gather proper statistics.
Anarchist wrote:Renewed vibrancy in critical sectors of Somalia’s economy
I also heard one of their pirate lords commands a true armada and calls himself "Admiral", and his "Navy" has vice-admirals, et cetera. Yup, I believe it is the way of progress. A true stateless Navy! :lol: The guy should put that in their paper.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by LaCroix »

Thanas wrote:It would also count as a "revival of sacred traditions, practiced over millennia until they were prohibited by a ruthless state oppression of the pirates' individual freedoms".
You could add tribe wars in that category too. If they now take up human sacrifice again, it's a triple win.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by RedImperator »

Well, to be fair, Somalia's pre-1991 government was a particularly loathsome dictatorship; part of the reason the country is such a mess now is because the last time it had a functioning government, that government stole just about everything. I can see certain development indices improving under those conditions, especially outside Mogadishu itself. Still, it's hardly an argument for anarchy if you say, "Well, the previous government was so fucking terrible that in some ways people are better off living in a hellscape of endless tribal warfare."
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by Vendetta »

RedImperator wrote:Well, to be fair, Somalia's pre-1991 government was a particularly loathsome dictatorship; part of the reason the country is such a mess now is because the last time it had a functioning government, that government stole just about everything.
And now stealing just about everything is a free enterprise.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

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Are these Libertarians are so retarded that they are actually comparing a loathsome dictatorship on the verge of collapse during a brutal civil war to its aftermath and then implying this proves that not having a state is better than all forms of government? Including western democratic systems that deliver far higher standards of living for it's citizens? Hell, even a Chinese style system of government would improve the situation ten-fold.

I guess years of Islamic insurgency (and growing extremism), rampant piracy, warlordism, social and economic meltdown are all better than the "tyranny of government".

You have to be a special kind of idiot to be a Libertarian.
Last edited by bobalot on 2010-01-20 02:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by Formless »

I'd imagine that to most libertarians, a loathsome dictatorship is the logical end state of all forms of government. Libertarianism (especially its American strand) is equal parts paranoid and stupid, you know.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

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Formless wrote:I'd imagine that to most libertarians, a loathsome dictatorship is the logical end state of all forms of government. Libertarianism (especially its American strand) is equal parts paranoid and stupid, you know.
Which is contrary to actual evidence, but Libertarians rely on axioms rather than reality.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

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I always wonder why the Libertarians praising Somalia as some sort of budding Libertarian paradise never actually chose to live there and experience that experiment unfold. They prefer to stay in their "statist" nations.

Hell, even though communism eventually failed, it least had adherents prepared to leave their homes in their thousands for their communist dream. Libertarians look like total pussies in comparison.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by K. A. Pital »

You see, many of them lack the essential skills of wielding AK-47s and slaughtering people, kidnapping crews and engaging in piracy against ships from a small cargo freighter to a supertanker.

It is the fault of the state education system that they were brainwashed into being educated people. In reality, it barred them from learning the critical skills above, and thus they are barred from the utopian land of Atlas Shrugged forever.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by Spyder »

Looking at the table from page 12 (crap formatting sorry.)
Looking at the table on page 12
Table 1. Key Development Indicators Before and After Statelessness
1985-1990a 2000-2005 Welfare Change
GDP (PPP constant $) 836b 600c,e ?
Life expectancy (years) 46.0b 48.47c,g Improved
Life expentancy up form 46 to 48.47. Not exactly an indicator that they've found an ideal solution.
One year olds fully immunized against measles (%) 30 40h Improved
One year olds fully immunized against TB (%) 31 50h Improved
Physicians (per 100,000) 3.4 4h Improved
Infants with low birth weight (%) 16 0.3l Improved
Infant mortality rate (per 1,000) 152 114.89c,g Improved
Maternal mortality rate per (100,000) 1,600 1,100i Improved
Pop. with access to water (%) 29 29h Same
Pop. with access to sanitation (%) 18 26h Improved
Pop.with access to at least one health facility (%) 28 54.8k Improved
Extreme poverty (% < $1 per day) 60 43.2k Improved
Radios (per 1,000) 4.0 98.5k Improved
Telephones (per 1,000) 1.92d 14.9k Improved
TVs (per 1,000) 1.2 3.7k Improved
Fatality due to measles 8,000 5,598j,m Improved
It looks like an overall improvement in sanitation has lead to a slight improvement in health, which explains the life expectancy increase...but
Adult literacy rate (%) 24b 19.2j Worse
Combinedn school enrollment (%) 12.9b 7.5a,f Worse
The author doesn't seem to consider this a problem but I'd be willing to wager that as the illiteracy grows, any 'progress' Somalia has made is about to take a sharp turn backwards.

He also doesn't establish causation for the increased health indicators, just correlation. We don't know if any of the advancements are actually due to having an anarchistic state.
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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

Post by Mayabird »

You have nothing. You pick up a rock so if someone comes along to try to kill you you have a very slightly increased chance of fighting the person off or killing them instead. Now you have a rock instead of nothing. This counts as an improvement.

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Re: Somalia: Better Off Stateless

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Stas Bush wrote:You see, many of them lack the essential skills of wielding AK-47s and slaughtering people, kidnapping crews and engaging in piracy against ships from a small cargo freighter to a supertanker.

It is the fault of the state education system that they were brainwashed into being educated people. In reality, it barred them from learning the critical skills above, and thus they are barred from the utopian land of Atlas Shrugged forever.
Part of the problem is in Somalia, people learn these "essential skills" from al-Qaida and its Islamist allies. The libertarian lunatics who think Somalia is better off stateless, also claim to be athiests who are free from the "tyranny of religion."

No, I'm not one of those lunatics who think people NEED God in their lives, but people need RULES- codes of conduct that are generally enforced, so people don't just go around raping and looting as they please. Organized religion provides SOME rules, and putting up with the priests' bullshit is better than having a society full of wannabe ganstas going around raping and looting as they please, assuming the rules ALSO apply to the priests (cough! Catholic pedophiles! cough!).
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