Star Trek VS Star Blazers

[kotori87]

With the Live Action Space Battleship Yamato movie due out this year, I've been re-watching the original series and looking for videos on youtube. Yesterday I found a mashup video pitting the TOS Enterprise against the Space Battleship Yamato:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLJpCNyYanw

This got me thinking, how would a fight like that really turn out, assuming the two sides actually fought, instead of making peaceful contact? How would the Enterprise's phasers affect the Yamato? How would Yamato's guns and deus ex... I mean wave motion gun affect the Enterprise? And, just for fun, what would happen if the Yamato fired 1945-vintage ammunition instead of twisty energy-beams from its main guns?

For discussion purposes, assume Yamato is in original Quest for Iscandar form without the upgrades received during Comet Empire, but does have its asteroid-ring shield.

[open_sketchbook]

While I imagine quantification of animation will be difficult, my preliminary guess is that the original Enterprise would get pretty stomped providing the Yamato crew go straight for the wave motion gun. That thing has quite a bit of reach and I doubt that the Enterprise could survive it. However, the weapon has a considerable charge time, so the question is really "Can the Enterprise kill the Yamato before the WMG is charged?" Considering that the Yamato lacks shields, I imagine that the fight would go like this: Enterprise and Yamato face off at maximum effective range. Yamato charges wave motion gun. Enterprise launches torpedoes. Wave Motion Gun fires, Enterprise is obliterated. Torpedoes strike, Yamato is vapourized. Yamato's fighter pilot guy with the hair cries manly tears.

[lord Martiya]

Yamato has actually two other advantages, as the space battleship routinely engages at longer range than Star Trek ships ever did and has at least 24 AA laser guns in twin mounts (if I remember well, they converted only the 127mm guns in pulse lasers. If they did the same with the 25mm guns, then we have another 162 AA laser guns).
Given that, we have four possibilities.
1)If the shock cannons can do damage and only the 127mm guns has been converted, then the Enterprise would have quite a few problems, as the Yamato would fire the shock cannons from out of phaser range and have good possibilities to shoot down the photorps. If a single torpedo pass, the Yamato will be just a glorious memory, but if not, then the Enterprise will be forced to surrender.
2)If the shock cannons can do damage and all the AA weapons of the WWII-era Yamato have been converted in pulse lasers, then the Enterprise, all versions, will need a small miracle to place that torpedo and win.
3)If the shock cannons are ineffective, then the most probable outcome will be mutual annihilation, as the wave motion gun would pretty much disintegrate everything in its path and Sanada would need a lot of luck to hit the torpedoes with the asteroid shields (the torpedo explosion would just send the asteroids against the Yamato, so he would need to shoot them at the incoming warhead).
4)If the shock cannons are effective as I remember and can shatter asteroids (I'm not sure, I have to rewatch the series), then you need a tactical Borg cube commanded by Kirk to get a match for the Yamato, anything less would be just gun practice.

[Batman]

All of that would be a lot more impressive if it came with some actual numbers on range and firepower.
As per the video, I'd say the E-nil is doomed, because not only does the Yamato have the technology to have guns firing IN OPPOSITE DIRECTIONS nevertheless hit the target, but the E-Nil crew apparently underestimates the threat to the point where Uhura is allowed to go to her quarters to change uniforms.

[Uraniun235]

I don't think the wave motion gun would come into play.

If Yamato knew enough about Enterprise to immediately resort to the wave-motion gun, then Enterprise would know enough about Yamato to keep out of the line of fire. The enormously superior agility of Enterprise (can engage warp drive at will, and even wallowing at impulse power can turn a hell of a lot quicker than Yamato can) leads me to believe that Yamato would not be able to keep the Enterprise in her sights.

If the Yamato didn't know enough to immediately resort to the wave motion gun, then by the time they've realized how dangerous the Enterprise is, it'll probably be too late, if not too close.

Yamato has actually two other advantages, as the space battleship routinely engages at longer range than Star Trek ships ever did and has at least 24 AA laser guns in twin mounts (if I remember well, they converted only the 127mm guns in pulse lasers. If they did the same with the 25mm guns, then we have another 162 AA laser guns).
Given that, we have four possibilities.
1)If the shock cannons can do damage and only the 127mm guns has been converted, then the Enterprise would have quite a few problems, as the Yamato would fire the shock cannons from out of phaser range and have good possibilities to shoot down the photorps. If a single torpedo pass, the Yamato will be just a glorious memory, but if not, then the Enterprise will be forced to surrender.
2)If the shock cannons can do damage and all the AA weapons of the WWII-era Yamato have been converted in pulse lasers, then the Enterprise, all versions, will need a small miracle to place that torpedo and win.
3)If the shock cannons are ineffective, then the most probable outcome will be mutual annihilation, as the wave motion gun would pretty much disintegrate everything in its path and Sanada would need a lot of luck to hit the torpedoes with the asteroid shields (the torpedo explosion would just send the asteroids against the Yamato, so he would need to shoot them at the incoming warhead).
4)If the shock cannons are effective as I remember and can shatter asteroids (I'm not sure, I have to rewatch the series), then you need a tactical Borg cube commanded by Kirk to get a match for the Yamato, anything less would be just gun practice.

Much of your post appears to be built on the assumption that Yamato can decide the range at which the battle will take place. Even if Yamato had superior range (which is questionable seeing as, looking through my TOS DVDs, I cannot recall a single episode where the Enterprise fired on a target that was in the same frame), I don't see any evidence that Yamato has superior speed or maneuverability.

Additionally, I don't see why the phasers can't wear down and penetrate the orbiting asteroids.

[lord Martiya]

My assumption that the Yamato can dictate the range comes from the fact no Federation ship had been observed shooting phasers at the twenty km ranges the Yamato has been observed shooting into oblivion Gamilas ships and those pulse lasers can shoot quite fast. And for the superior agility and speed... While I have to admit that the Yamato is as agile as a drunken whale, the speed is another matter: at sublight there's no evidence of either one superiority, I'd dare to say they're at similar levels, but at FTL the Yamato traveled to a Magellan cloud (don't remember which one) and back in less than one year while wasting time fighting Gamilas ships. And I still have to see evidence that the Enterprise is fast and nimble enough to avoid those turretted shock cannons.
For the asteroids, those came from the rests of a dwarf planet shattered by an undisclosed Gamilan weapon and were mostly made of rock. Given that, I don't say the phasers wouldn't penetrate them, I say they wouldn't penetrate them FAST ENOUGH to count in the battle.

All of that would be a lot more impressive if it came with some actual numbers on range and firepower.

I remember the Yamato blasting Gamilas 'battleships' (that's how they called them in the manga, I still have to rewatch the anime to see how Okita and friends called them) at twenty km ranges. For the firepower, I still have to rewatch the series to see if the shock cannons are powerful enough to shatter asteroids (I won't even try to get figures for the wave motion guns, so far that laser from hell on steroids has shattered everything that hadn't a laser-reflecting mirror on it).

[Simon_Jester]

When the original series came out, people hadn't learned to make a fetish out of space battles that looked just like WWII naval battles or dogfights. Therefore, when Enterprise opened fire it was usually on a distant target at unspecified ranges, with the strong implication that those ranges were not visual, and were much more than 20 km.

The apparent range of combat dropped enormously starting in the later series, because the guys doing the special effects were now able to make realistic-looking* space dogfights, which was not possible in the 1960s. So suddenly the ships were engaging at ranges where both ships were visible in the same frame... which had not happened before. Outside the story, that was because a battle between two models on wires would have looked idiotic in 1965; inside it passed unremarked.

*As in "looks like it's really happening," not as in "looks like this is how wars would really be fought."

[lord Martiya]

When the original series came out, people hadn't learned to make a fetish out of space battles that looked just like WWII naval battles or dogfights. Therefore, when Enterprise opened fire it was usually on a distant target at unspecified ranges, with the strong implication that those ranges were not visual, and were much more than 20 km.

The problem is that they just IMPLIED this, not shown it. I remember those fights and got a similar impression, but they didn't show it. On the other hand, Academy Productions showed battles at a range similar to the one in WWII naval battles, and Matsumoto continued the trand in his manga version and his other space operas.

[Patrick Degan]

When the original series came out, people hadn't learned to make a fetish out of space battles that looked just like WWII naval battles or dogfights. Therefore, when Enterprise opened fire it was usually on a distant target at unspecified ranges, with the strong implication that those ranges were not visual, and were much more than 20 km.

The problem is that they just IMPLIED this, not shown it. I remember those fights and got a similar impression, but they didn't show it. On the other hand, Academy Productions showed battles at a range similar to the one in WWII naval battles, and Matsumoto continued the trand in his manga version and his other space operas.

No, they did not just "imply" it, they stated it directly in at least two episodes in which the Enterprise was engaging targets at ranges out to 90,000km ("The Changeling", "Journey To Babel"). As for impulse capabilities, the comparable Klingon battlecruiser which was at roughly the same capability as a Federation heavy-cruiser class starship demonstrates the ability to close to target at velocities of 40,000km/sec, as it did making its strafing runs on the Enterprise in "Elaan Of Troyus".

My assumption that the Yamato can dictate the range comes from the fact no Federation ship had been observed shooting phasers at the twenty km ranges the Yamato has been observed shooting into oblivion Gamilas ships and those pulse lasers can shoot quite fast. And for the superior agility and speed... While I have to admit that the Yamato is as agile as a drunken whale, the speed is another matter: at sublight there's no evidence of either one superiority, I'd dare to say they're at similar levels, but at FTL the Yamato traveled to a Magellan cloud (don't remember which one) and back in less than one year while wasting time fighting Gamilas ships. And I still have to see evidence that the Enterprise is fast and nimble enough to avoid those turretted shock cannons.

Your assumptions are based on a number of false premises and faulty data, as outlined above. Furthermore, all of the Yamato's targets have lacked any sort of defensive energy shielding and apparently were very thinly armoured given how easily they were blown apart. This alone changes the conditions of the battle, in addition to the fact that the Yamato would be wallowing like a garbage scow against a far more agile ship with greater impulse speed capability.

While the Yamato may have a superior space-jumping capability at far greater galactic distances, her space warp generator requires a long charging interval and precise computation from the navigational systems before making the attempt. The Enterprise by contrast can warp out of the battle zone at a moment's notice and reenter at any vector of Capt. Kirk's choosing. This gives the Federation ship the superior manoeuverability and thus adds to her capacity to control the fight.

As for the wave-motion gun, it's vulnerabilities have been addressed by Gamilon, Comet Empire, and Dark Nebula Empire commanders and three times nearly resulted in the Yamato's loss when those vulnerabilities were exploited: its long charging interval and the fact that it's a fixed-axis weapon ("Yes, it's an obvious tactic, isn't it Talan? They think they're going to use their wave-motion gun against us"). The Enterprise will not simply sit still and wait to be blasted.

For the asteroids, those came from the rests of a dwarf planet shattered by an undisclosed Gamilan weapon and were mostly made of rock. Given that, I don't say the phasers wouldn't penetrate them, I say they wouldn't penetrate them FAST ENOUGH to count in the battle.

Which is fine, I suppose, as long as the battle between the two ships takes place anywhere near an asteroid field. If not, this defence is not available at all.

If the shock cannons can do damage and all the AA weapons of the WWII-era Yamato have been converted in pulse lasers, then the Enterprise, all versions, will need a small miracle to place that torpedo and win.

Two-dimensional thinking. You really must have forgotten the number of times the Yamato took heavy missile damage on her underside hull where there is about zero weapons coverage and therefore represents a huge vulnerability. And just what "miracle" would really be required for the Enterprise to manoeuver below the Yamato and gut her exposed belly from long range?

[lord Martiya]

No, they did not just "imply" it, they stated it directly in at least two episodes in which the Enterprise was engaging targets at ranges out to 90,000km ("The Changeling", "Journey To Babel").

I'll look at those two episodes to see what they used. If phasers, then I suppose Yamato would be fucked. If not, then Yamato has the time to turn and shoot down the missiles.

As for impulse capabilities, the comparable Klingon battlecruiser which was at roughly the same capability as a Federation heavy-cruiser class starship demonstrates the ability to close to target at velocities of 40,000km/sec, as it did making its strafing runs on the Enterprise in "Elaan Of Troyus".

I do NOT dispute this. But I'd like to point out that the Yamato's wave motion engine at sublight enables the ship going from Mars to Titan in a couple days. That's why I consider them roughly equal in sublight speed (in the manga a freak accident enabled a much faster travel, but that was indeed a freak accident and manga-only).

My assumption that the Yamato can dictate the range comes from the fact no Federation ship had been observed shooting phasers at the twenty km ranges the Yamato has been observed shooting into oblivion Gamilas ships and those pulse lasers can shoot quite fast. And for the superior agility and speed... While I have to admit that the Yamato is as agile as a drunken whale, the speed is another matter: at sublight there's no evidence of either one superiority, I'd dare to say they're at similar levels, but at FTL the Yamato traveled to a Magellan cloud (don't remember which one) and back in less than one year while wasting time fighting Gamilas ships. And I still have to see evidence that the Enterprise is fast and nimble enough to avoid those turretted shock cannons.

Your assumptions are based on a number of false premises and faulty data, as outlined above. Furthermore, all of the Yamato's targets have lacked any sort of defensive energy shielding and apparently were very thinly armoured given how easily they were blown apart. This alone changes the conditions of the battle, in addition to the fact that the Yamato would be wallowing like a garbage scow against a far more agile ship with greater impulse speed capability.

On the firepower thing, it could just be that the Yamato's guns are just asteroid-shattering weapons. Still, I won't dispute that the Enterprise is more armored than Gamilas ships (maybe they are more armored than the NX-01, but I don't know).
On the speed and manouvrability, the Yamato would be wallowing like a rocket-bootered garbage scow, as the speed is similar. The agility is something else (Leijiverse ships with Trek-like agility were much smaller or commanded by Captain Harlock, and we're speaking of the pre-Comet Empire Yamato only), and that would give Kodai a way to prove he's earning his pay (I mean, Gamilas ships were just target practice, only fighters, Deslar flagship and ground bases were real opposition. Those and the much later 'subspace submarines' that at the time didn't exist yet).

While the Yamato may have a superior space-jumping capability at far greater galactic distances, her space warp generator requires a long charging interval and precise computation from the navigational systems before making the attempt. The Enterprise by contrast can warp out of the battle zone at a moment's notice and reenter at any vector of Capt. Kirk's choosing. This gives the Federation ship the superior manoeuverability and thus adds to her capacity to control the fight.

Meaning he can run away or pull out some trick if the Yamato proves too superior in a stand-up fight. Yes, that would give Okita a run for his money or even victory to Enterprise.

As for the wave-motion gun, it's vulnerabilities have been addressed by Gamilon, Comet Empire, and Dark Nebula Empire commanders and three times nearly resulted in the Yamato's loss when those vulnerabilities were exploited: its long charging interval and the fact that it's a fixed-axis weapon ("Yes, it's an obvious tactic, isn't it Talan? They think they're going to use their wave-motion gun against us"). The Enterprise will not simply sit still and wait to be blasted.

I'm quite conscious of wave motion gun weaknesses, and you forgot the fact it's just an overpowered laser from hell on steroids like the Deslar cannon (I recall Deslar admitting it's the very same technology, only more powerful), and that Sanada's reflection shield trick could be pulled on them. And that's why I call it's use only in the wave motion gun vs torpedo scenario and supposed ejecting the asteroid shield would be the only way to shoot down those torpedoes (pulse lasers wouldn't be available during the charging).

For the asteroids, those came from the rests of a dwarf planet shattered by an undisclosed Gamilan weapon and were mostly made of rock. Given that, I don't say the phasers wouldn't penetrate them, I say they wouldn't penetrate them FAST ENOUGH to count in the battle.

Which is fine, I suppose, as long as the battle between the two ships takes place anywhere near an asteroid field. If not, this defence is not available at all.

And that's why I called the asteroid shield in use only if the wave motion gun is the only way to shoot down the Enterprise, and only as a feeble way to save the Yamato: if the shock cannons are effective the asteroid shield just doesn't matter, as the shock cannons would be fired from out of phaser range and it wouldn't matter against a torpedo passing the AA onslaught.

If the shock cannons can do damage and all the AA weapons of the WWII-era Yamato have been converted in pulse lasers, then the Enterprise, all versions, will need a small miracle to place that torpedo and win.

Two-dimensional thinking. You really must have forgotten the number of times the Yamato took heavy missile damage on her underside hull where there is about zero weapons coverage and therefore represents a huge vulnerability. And just what "miracle" would really be required for the Enterprise to manoeuver below the Yamato and gut her exposed belly from long range?

That at the longest range the Yamato would have the time to turn and use the pulse lasers. Still, you have a point: if, for any reason, Okita didn't launch the Black Tigers, at any other range a photon could be Yamato's doom (side missiles were never very effective). I KNEW there was a reason if I consider Queen Emeraldas Matsumoto's ultimate battleship in spite of my love for the green Arcadia, it's his only ship with fighter cover everywhere. Thanks for pointing out.

[lord Martiya]

Ghetto edit: for the Queen Emeraldas I was talking about the version appeared in the same-named anime miniseries, where the ship has not only the cannons in the 'galleon' but has enough hidden guns, missiles and whatever weapon Tochiro or some other madman put on it to destroy dozens of ships with a single salvo and fast-firing enough to destroy some hundreds ships in less than ten seconds (look here from 9.07).

[Simon_Jester]

As for impulse capabilities, the comparable Klingon battlecruiser which was at roughly the same capability as a Federation heavy-cruiser class starship demonstrates the ability to close to target at velocities of 40,000km/sec, as it did making its strafing runs on the Enterprise in "Elaan Of Troyus".

I do NOT dispute this. But I'd like to point out that the Yamato's wave motion engine at sublight enables the ship going from Mars to Titan in a couple days. That's why I consider them roughly equal in sublight speed (in the manga a freak accident enabled a much faster travel, but that was indeed a freak accident and manga-only).

Ah... do the math. The distance from Mars to Titan is close to 1.4 billion kilometers, varying slightly as a function of orbital position. Assuming the minimum of two days to get out there, that's ~170000 seconds, or an average speed of ~8000 km/s. This is much lower than the speed shown by the Klingon battlecruiser in its strafing run.

Of course, much depends on acceleration, not just speed. But that just makes the gap bigger. The acceleration required to get up to those speeds for a short-duration strafing run is much greater, many orders of magnitude greater, than what you'd need to build up speeds of 8000 km/s on the long, straight Titan-Mars run.

So I don't think we're looking at similar sublight speeds here.

On the speed and manouvrability, the Yamato would be wallowing like a rocket-bootered garbage scow, as the speed is similar.

The problem here is that by all appearances, the Yamato does not have the straight line acceleration to keep up with Enterprise. Think of it as a rocket-boosted garbage scow hydroplaning across the water at 60 km/hour... while being attacked by a helicopter that can fly at 200 km/hour. The Enterprise has advantages in both sublight speed and agility.

Meaning he can run away or pull out some trick if the Yamato proves too superior in a stand-up fight. Yes, that would give Okita a run for his money or even victory to Enterprise.

On the other hand, he can also dance around Yamato and beat the tar out of it without bothering to engage in a stand-up fight. Sort of like an attack helicopter fighting a rocket-boosted garbage scow.

That at the longest range the Yamato would have the time to turn and use the pulse lasers. Still, you have a point: if, for any reason, Okita didn't launch the Black Tigers, at any other range a photon could be Yamato's doom (side missiles were never very effective). I KNEW there was a reason if I consider Queen Emeraldas Matsumoto's ultimate battleship in spite of my love for the green Arcadia, it's his only ship with fighter cover everywhere. Thanks for pointing out.

I'm not sure I understand.

OK... Let me see if I follow this bit. Your argument is that Yamato is armed with a large battery of point defense lasers that would make it difficult or impossible to hit with missiles. On the other hand, because for reasons I do not know they chose to do all this on the hull of a WWII battleship, the ship has effectively no point defense covering its belly (the hull that would otherwise be below the waterline).

The question here is: how fast can Yamato roll? If they can roll 180 degrees around the long axis of the ship, flipping it upside down from the point of view of an outside observer, in a very short time, then they can always bring their point defense lasers to bear against a missile attack, and the Enterprise will probably not be able to outmaneuver them that way unless they do something very strange and clever.

On the other hand, if it takes them many seconds or even minutes to roll ship that way, then they're doomed, because they can neither dodge to keep their vulnerable belly out of Enterprise's line of fire, nor turn to use point defense against torpedoes targeted against the belly.

[DrStrangelove]

A lot of things depend on the timeline for Yamato. In the 3rd season they got wave motion shells for the shock cannons for example, and like trek ranges were often stated to be thousands of kilometers in the anime. Distances which shock cannon shells travel in a second or two. Then you have torpedoes in the newest anime which are able to create small force fields.

[Patrick Degan]

No, they did not just "imply" it, they stated it directly in at least two episodes in which the Enterprise was engaging targets at ranges out to 90,000km ("The Changeling", "Journey To Babel").

I'll look at those two episodes to see what they used. If phasers, then I suppose Yamato would be fucked. If not, then Yamato has the time to turn and shoot down the missiles.

Phasers were used in "Journey To Babel", photorps in "The Changeling". And in the case of the latter, the torpedoes closed with Nomad at 90,000km range in about 4-6 seconds from launching, indicating velocities of 15-22,000 km/sec. The Yamato will never get her topside missile launchers or point-defence batteries in firing position before those torpedoes strike.

As for impulse capabilities, the comparable Klingon battlecruiser which was at roughly the same capability as a Federation heavy-cruiser class starship demonstrates the ability to close to target at velocities of 40,000km/sec, as it did making its strafing runs on the Enterprise in "Elaan Of Troyus".

I do NOT dispute this. But I'd like to point out that the Yamato's wave motion engine at sublight enables the ship going from Mars to Titan in a couple days. That's why I consider them roughly equal in sublight speed (in the manga a freak accident enabled a much faster travel, but that was indeed a freak accident and manga-only).

Or the ship made warp jumps from Mars to Jupiter (you forgot that episode with the Floating Continent and first use of the wave gun) and then to Titan, which would more reasonably account for the transit time across solar distances. The ship's observed sublight space operations, however, do not indicate a superior drive capability to that of the Enterprise.

On the firepower thing, it could just be that the Yamato's guns are just asteroid-shattering weapons. Still, I won't dispute that the Enterprise is more armored than Gamilas ships (maybe they are more armored than the NX-01, but I don't know).

I would not say the Enterprise is better armoured, as she relies upon her deflector shield system as her primary protection.

On the speed and manouvrability, the Yamato would be wallowing like a rocket-bootered garbage scow, as the speed is similar. The agility is something else (Leijiverse ships with Trek-like agility were much smaller or commanded by Captain Harlock, and we're speaking of the pre-Comet Empire Yamato only), and that would give Kodai a way to prove he's earning his pay (I mean, Gamilas ships were just target practice, only fighters, Deslar flagship and ground bases were real opposition. Those and the much later 'subspace submarines' that at the time didn't exist yet).

No, the comparison is not at all apt. The "rocket-boosted scow" essentially can only accelerate and decelerate, which does not allow manoeuverability or even velocity control except of the crudest kind.

I'm quite conscious of wave motion gun weaknesses, and you forgot the fact it's just an overpowered laser from hell on steroids like the Deslar cannon (I recall Deslar admitting it's the very same technology, only more powerful), and that Sanada's reflection shield trick could be pulled on them. And that's why I call it's use only in the wave motion gun vs torpedo scenario and supposed ejecting the asteroid shield would be the only way to shoot down those torpedoes (pulse lasers wouldn't be available during the charging).

You mean the reflection shield which was only ever used once, apparently was never installed on any other ship of the Earth Defence Force fleet, and certainly was never activated again by the Yamato when you'd think this would have proven a vital defensive system in several of the worst battles the Star Force faced. One-trick pony.

For the asteroids, those came from the rests of a dwarf planet shattered by an undisclosed Gamilan weapon and were mostly made of rock. Given that, I don't say the phasers wouldn't penetrate them, I say they wouldn't penetrate them FAST ENOUGH to count in the battle.

Which is fine, I suppose, as long as the battle between the two ships takes place anywhere near an asteroid field. If not, this defence is not available at all.

And that's why I called the asteroid shield in use only if the wave motion gun is the only way to shoot down the Enterprise, and only as a feeble way to save the Yamato: if the shock cannons are effective the asteroid shield just doesn't matter, as the shock cannons would be fired from out of phaser range and it wouldn't matter against a torpedo passing the AA onslaught.

Kindly demonstrate that the Yamato main weaponry outranges that of the Enterprise. I've not heard any statement in the series which indicates this. And again, if the battle is taking place in open space, the asteroid defence is not available at all, which makes it effectively useless as a point in favour of your argument.

You really must have forgotten the number of times the Yamato took heavy missile damage on her underside hull where there is about zero weapons coverage and therefore represents a huge vulnerability. And just what "miracle" would really be required for the Enterprise to manoeuver below the Yamato and gut her exposed belly from long range?

That at the longest range the Yamato would have the time to turn and use the pulse lasers. Still, you have a point: if, for any reason, Okita didn't launch the Black Tigers, at any other range a photon could be Yamato's doom.

The problem is that even at the longest range, the photorps would close before the Yamato's systems could attain a target track and predict a firing solution, or for the guns to line up on it. It won't matter if the Black Tigers are launched or not or the Yamato starts to make a turn or a roll or not. It simply would be physically impossible for the ship to beat this closure interval (and human pilots would certainly never be able to react fast enough to line their sights on a target moving at an appreciable fraction of c through distances of a third of a light-second) before she would be struck and destroyed or at least heavily damaged. If the Enterprise uses her phasers (the far more likely option), the conclusion is even more certain.

[lord Martiya]

A lot of things depend on the timeline for Yamato. In the 3rd season they got wave motion shells for the shock cannons for example, and like trek ranges were often stated to be thousands of kilometers in the anime. Distances which shock cannon shells travel in a second or two. Then you have torpedoes in the newest anime which are able to create small force fields.

I know. But, as in the original post, we are talking of the Yamato during the travel for Iskandar, not after one of the various refit, or in one of his cameo appearances in Harlock Saga or DNA Sight 9999 (by the way, what the hell was doing the Yamato in the XXI century?). We are talking of the Space Battleship Yamato as in the travel for Iskandar.

Ah... do the math. The distance from Mars to Titan is close to 1.4 billion kilometers, varying slightly as a function of orbital position. Assuming the minimum of two days to get out there, that's ~170000 seconds, or an average speed of ~8000 km/s. This is much lower than the speed shown by the Klingon battlecruiser in its strafing run.

Of course, much depends on acceleration, not just speed. But that just makes the gap bigger. The acceleration required to get up to those speeds for a short-duration strafing run is much greater, many orders of magnitude greater, than what you'd need to build up speeds of 8000 km/s on the long, straight Titan-Mars run.

So I don't think we're looking at similar sublight speeds here.

Point.

The problem here is that by all appearances, the Yamato does not have the straight line acceleration to keep up with Enterprise. Think of it as a rocket-boosted garbage scow hydroplaning across the water at 60 km/hour... while being attacked by a helicopter that can fly at 200 km/hour. The Enterprise has advantages in both sublight speed and agility.

I never disputed the agility. But I can see the point.

On the other hand, he can also dance around Yamato and beat the tar out of it without bothering to engage in a stand-up fight. Sort of like an attack helicopter fighting a rocket-boosted garbage scow.

I conceded this a bit ago.

I'm not sure I understand.

OK... Let me see if I follow this bit. Your argument is that Yamato is armed with a large battery of point defense lasers that would make it difficult or impossible to hit with missiles. On the other hand, because for reasons I do not know they chose to do all this on the hull of a WWII battleship, the ship has effectively no point defense covering its belly (the hull that would otherwise be below the waterline).

The question here is: how fast can Yamato roll? If they can roll 180 degrees around the long axis of the ship, flipping it upside down from the point of view of an outside observer, in a very short time, then they can always bring their point defense lasers to bear against a missile attack, and the Enterprise will probably not be able to outmaneuver them that way unless they do something very strange and clever.

On the other hand, if it takes them many seconds or even minutes to roll ship that way, then they're doomed, because they can neither dodge to keep their vulnerable belly out of Enterprise's line of fire, nor turn to use point defense against torpedoes targeted against the belly.

Actually my point was that at the longest ranges the Yamato could roll and use the battery and that at long, mid and short range they would have to pray for a miracle from Kato or the side missiles (a secondary point-defense: frag missiles shot from the sides of the ship, never too efficient), and that I was thanking Patrick for reminding me why I consider the Queen Emeraldas in the version appeared in the same-named anime Matsumoto's ultimate battleship.

Phasers were used in "Journey To Babel", photorps in "The Changeling". And in the case of the latter, the torpedoes closed with Nomad at 90,000km range in about 4-6 seconds from launching, indicating velocities of 15-22,000 km/sec. The Yamato will never get her topside missile launchers or point-defence batteries in firing position before those torpedoes strike.

OK, I admit Yamato IS fucked.

Or the ship made warp jumps from Mars to Jupiter (you forgot that episode with the Floating Continent and first use of the wave gun) and then to Titan, which would more reasonably account for the transit time across solar distances. The ship's observed sublight space operations, however, do not indicate a superior drive capability to that of the Enterprise.

I was indicating the speed. And Simon pretty much proved me wrong.

I would not say the Enterprise is better armoured, as she relies upon her deflector shield system as her primary protection.

My bad, I intended it's better protected. Thanks to the shield.

No, the comparison is not at all apt. The "rocket-boosted scow" essentially can only accelerate and decelerate, which does not allow manoeuverability or even velocity control except of the crudest kind.

I intended to say it can equal the speed of the Enterprise, on which I was proved wrong.

You mean the reflection shield which was only ever used once, apparently was never installed on any other ship of the Earth Defence Force fleet, and certainly was never activated again by the Yamato when you'd think this would have proven a vital defensive system in several of the worst battles the Star Force faced. One-trick pony.

I know. But that was another weakness of the wave motion gun. I kinda think to know why the ultimate battleship of Matsumoto's XXX Century Earth, the Karyu, had a completely different deus-ex-machina weapon.

Kindly demonstrate that the Yamato main weaponry outranges that of the Enterprise. I've not heard any statement in the series which indicates this. And again, if the battle is taking place in open space, the asteroid defence is not available at all, which makes it effectively useless as a point in favour of your argument.

And I was indicating that I didn't even count on the asteroid shield exactly for that and that it would still be useless.

The problem is that even at the longest range, the photorps would close before the Yamato's systems could attain a target track and predict a firing solution, or for the guns to line up on it. It won't matter if the Black Tigers are launched or not or the Yamato starts to make a turn or a roll or not. It simply would be physically impossible for the ship to beat this closure interval (and human pilots would certainly never be able to react fast enough to line their sights on a target moving at an appreciable fraction of c through distances of a third of a light-second) before she would be struck and destroyed or at least heavily damaged. If the Enterprise uses her phasers (the far more likely option), the conclusion is even more certain.

Simon kinda pointed that out.

[takemeout_totheblack]

All of that would be a lot more impressive if it came with some actual numbers on range and firepower.

Well, while I cannot offer anything other than conjecture as to fire power, I have canon sources on weapon ranges. Space Battleship Yamato series 2 episode 21, the onscreen stated range for shock cannons is 100,000-120,000 'space kilometers'. While I have no idea what a 'space kilometer' is, I think it's safe to assume it is either an equal or greater unit of measurement to our kilometer.

[takemeout_totheblack]

After watching SBY series 2 episode 21, I have come up with what I think are accurate weapon ranges and sublight speeds. The onscreen stated range is 110,000-120,000 'space kilometers'. While 'Hyperion Fleet' engages the Comet Empire's attack fleet, the Earth Force main fleet holds back at roughly 240,000 skm around Saturn. After Hyperion Fleet is flattened, the main fleet moves to engage the advancing attack fleet, it is stated on screen that they will take 15 minutes to enter firing range. So that's 120,000 skm in 15 minutes, that's 8000 skm a minute, or 133 skm a second.

Compared to the aforementioned Trek speed of 40,000 km/s, Earth ships move at something between 'dead crawl' and 'crippled sloth'.

However, 'Space kilometer' is an unknown unit of measure, for all we know 1 skm could be 100 or 1000 'normal' kilometers! Probably not, but it's possible.

With that said, I haven't really seen any evidence for Trek having weapon ranges beyond spitting distance, anyone have any direct quotes or scenes explicitly stating this?

[Uraniun235]

If I remember right, "space kilometer" is about as consistent in the Yamato series (and in all Matsumoto space operas) as "stardates" are in Star Trek.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Inconsistent or not, it's logical to assume that a 'space kilometer' is at least a kilometer, meaning that Earth Force Ships have an effective weapons range of, what, .4 light-seconds? According to the same episode this is also the range for the WMG.
I have yet to see evidence that ST ships have a superior or even equal weapons range, although I'm hardly an authority on the subject.

[Batman]

Yeah, it's not like Patrick Degan already gave two examples of comparable ranges earlier in this thread.
Also, as the OP didn't specify which era of Trek, we have TNG's The Wounded, where USS Phoenix destroys a cardassian ship at a range of 1ls.
Also, as has been pointed out, the Trek ship can completely AVOID the Yamato's armaments by attacking from relative below.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Yeah, Yamato's pretty screwed on basis of profoundly retarded weapon layout, slow speeds, inferior range, and poor maneuverability. The WMG is the only actual superiority Yamato has, and even then its charge time is a liability!
For that matter, where do Yamato's conventional weapons stand in terms of firepower? Would the shock cannons and laser mounts even worry a TNG era trek ship's shields? I know there's a bunch of examples where the Yamato dusts some asteroids, but would it be possible to squeeze some numbers out of those scenes based off of observation?

[lord Martiya]

We'd need figures of how big are those asteroids. Until then, the only figure we have for the shock cannons is 'more powerful than the Enterprise-D photon torpedoes, comparable to the Romulan plasma weapons at maximum power and so outgunned by the Arcadia it's not even funny'.

[Parallax]

What craft do you think would be a good match for the Yamato?
The Galactica, perhaps?

[Zor]

What craft do you think would be a good match for the Yamato?
The Galactica, perhaps?

Neo or classic?

Zor

[Parallax]

I'd be looking at the neo version since it's the version I'm more familiar with.