Removing Mormonism from History.

[Crossroads Inc.]

SO the other night my Boyfriend and I where having one of our many discussions about Religion. I was raised Catholic while my Partner was Raised as a Member of the LDS church. The subject came up of how Religions start, and we came to the conclusion that unlike most other "established" churches, LDS can be traced back to a single man at a single point in time. That being Joseph Smith.

Other large religions came about over a long period of time and you cannot really trace an exact "start" point. Christianity, in all its forms, was a collection of teaches written by innumerable people. Considering Jesus might not have even historically existed, it would be impossible to find any one person responsible. Similar with Muslim and Judaism Religion.

However, Mormons CAN be traced back directly to Joseph Smith, which broached the possible conclusion. If Joseph Smith was "removed" from History, or lets say simply had his personal history slightly altered, would LDS simply cease to exist? And if it did... Would it be a bad thing?

[Akhlut]

Other large religions came about over a long period of time and you cannot really trace an exact "start" point. Christianity, in all its forms, was a collection of teaches written by innumerable people. Considering Jesus might not have even historically existed, it would be impossible to find any one person responsible. Similar with Muslim and Judaism Religion.

Uh, Islam was very much started by a single man, namely, Muhammad. He has as much historical evidence backing him as most other people in outskirt regions as you can get from the 7th century CE, and a lot of evidence backs up such a man existing, if not his claims to divine revelation.

However, Mormons CAN be traced back directly to Joseph Smith, which broached the possible conclusion. If Joseph Smith was "removed" from History, or lets say simply had his personal history slightly altered, would LDS simply cease to exist? And if it did... Would it be a bad thing?

Yes, the LDS would not exist if Joseph Smith had got himself killed in some damn foold adventure before he founded the Church. Would it be a bad thing for it to no longer exist? Probably not, as the people who belong to it would probably belong to a church with similar politics, if not similar beliefs.

[Axiomatic]

And you can wipe out Christianity too by removing Paul from the equation.

[dworkin]

We'ld be missing one of the larger genetic databases. Some days I feel sorry for the poor mormons. They were getting progressive, the new genetics technologies (in the 80's) were going to validate some of the wackier claims and so they embraced it and searched.
And searched.
And searched.
Nothing. Reality 1, Religion 0.

But then most of them went back to being assholes and I stop feeling sorry for them.

[Superman]

Of course Mormonism is would cease to exist without Smith. Mormonism hasn't been around very long, and most of its fraudulent/farcical history has been pretty well documented by lots of different American sources. It basically goes like this: There was once a guy named Joe Smith who started an American polygamy cult. The cult started to grow, but also wasn't very popular with most people and had to move around a lot. Eventually, and after having some wacky misadventures involving imprisonment and the US Army, the cult ended up in Utah and acquired enough money, resources and actual numbers to become a bona fide, non tax paying, religion. Like probably most significant events history, the existence of the LDS church can be traced a fluke.

Now, if we were a rational species, we'd look look at the church's documented history, claims of from Book of Mormon, and laugh while knowing that the biggest tard in the universe wouldn't believe this shit. But we're not rational.

[Serafine666]

Naturally there would be no Mormons without Smith. There would also be a very very different Judaism without Moses and probably wouldn't be an Islam without Mohammed. Prophets are extremely important to monotheistic religions, imposing a certain level of discpline and uniformity on them. It's difficult to estimate the precise effects of this because it's hard to distinguish between what people do because they are religious and what people would do regardless of their religion. The most certain thing that would have dramatically changed was the pattern of settlement in Utah; no matter their reasons for being there, the Mormons in the Great Salt Lake valley and California represented an established and stable American presence in Mexican territory outside of Texas. It's hard to tell what the effects of removing this factor would have been.

Not really sure where you got your facts about the history of Mormonism, Superman, but your originality is impressive and refreshing. Most people don't bother themselves to think beyond "Mormons are a devil-worshipping cult."

[Stark]

What are you talking about? I've never heard anyone claim the Mormons are devil-worshippers. The farcical, obviously-made-up basis of their theology, their lies and revisionism are well-known.

[Mayabird]

What are you talking about? I've never heard anyone claim the Mormons are devil-worshippers. The farcical, obviously-made-up basis of their theology, their lies and revisionism are well-known.

Well, I've known Southern Baptists and the like who claim stuff like that, but these are the types who claim that everybody else and everything secular is devil-worshipping, so that doesn't really count.

And Serafine666, if anything Superman is giving the nicer, more family-friendly version of Mormon history.

[Solauren]

What are you talking about? I've never heard anyone claim the Mormons are devil-worshippers. The farcical, obviously-made-up basis of their theology, their lies and revisionism are well-known.

In high school, I meet several people that said that. Mostly Roman Catholics come to think of it.

[Simon_Jester]

And you can wipe out Christianity too by removing Paul from the equation.

Maybe, maybe not. There were other stripes of the Christian faith; Paul was writing to existing churches he did not establish personally. On the other hand, without Paul a unified Christian doctrine might not have evolved, reducing Christianity to just another bunch of disconnected droplets in the syncretic fog of Roman-era religion.

Paul had a huge impact on Christianity, but he didn't invent it single-handedly the was Mohammed invented Islam or Joseph Smith invented Mormonism.

[Guardsman Bass]

Smith was the primary mover behind the formation of the LDS Church, even when he was co-operating with others like Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery. Without him, the church doesn't exist, with interesting ramifications for the history of Utah (whose initial white settlement was largely done by Mormons under LDS Church supervision - Brigham Young, the second leader of the church and the one who led them to settle Utah, sent out a number of colonizing efforts throughout the state after the initial settlement in the Salt Lake Valley).

It's hard to tell what the effects of removing this factor would have been.

I suspect Utah would have been a lot more like Colorado in settlement, with mining playing a much larger role in bringing people here. Salt Lake Valley, Utah Valley, and the St. George areas would probably be settled, eventually, if only because the first has areas where the soil was very good, the middle area has a freshwater lake that had a pretty good trout fishing scene and several scenic areas nearby, and the latter is one of the few areas in the state with a very long growing season (long enough to grow cotton) plus sunny weather and scenic sites nearby.

[Crossroads Inc.]

Hmmm. well talking to my Boyfriend again found at least one large Change to history.

Sam Brannan Is larger considered the initiator of the great Gold Rush. He was the one who carried gold back from Sutters Mill to San Francisco and then went about crying "GOLD GOLD!" He also sent several hundred copies of his own News Paper to St. Louis which started the spread of Gold to the East Coast and then grew Very Rich selling gods during the rush. He then went on to become a State Senator, found a Paper Empier and build Hotels and Railroads all across California.

The Rub?

He originally arrived in San Francisco following Brigham Youngs Move to Utah as a then Mormon.

Obviouslly Gold would have been discovered eventually and word got out, But california might look radically different... Interesting....

[Solauren]

Given the migrations happening at that time in the United States (all by variant christin religions), it's entirely possible the Gold Rush would have still happened. In the same general time period. Possibly initiated by the same man.

However, I agree that Mormonism's removal altering the California Gold Rush would be interesting.

[Broomstick]

What are you talking about? I've never heard anyone claim the Mormons are devil-worshippers.

I have.

There are quite a few extremist Christians who regard Mormons as exactly that. Of course, they regard everyone not them like that, but I have specifically heard some of those refer to Mormonism as a Satanic cult.

Getting back to the OP - Buddhism also has a specific founder and starting point, with historical evidence of Siddhartha Gautama's existence.

[Themightytom]

What are you talking about? I've never heard anyone claim the Mormons are devil-worshippers. The farcical, obviously-made-up basis of their theology, their lies and revisionism are well-known.

In high school, I meet several people that said that. Mostly Roman Catholics come to think of it.

Show me ANYWHERE in Roman catholic Canon that says mormons worship the Dvvel. Its probably in the same newsletter endorsing touching little boys.

That being said I could actually agument. Mormon is a smoking gun in terms of religions, it really undermines the credibility of prophets and divine inspirations when characters like Joseph Smith successfully start a religion, and until Scientology came around it was probably the most absurd, yet somewhat successful one. Taking it as a given that supernatural entities must be manipulating EVERYTHING spiritual, it would make sense that the clusterfuck religions are attempts to discredit legitimate ones by example.

What would the world look like without Mormons? Well no poltergeist movies spring to mind, but some notable Mormons are:

Glenn Beck (er... not a compelling loss, and he probably would be the same as any other denomination.)
Harry Reid
Henrey Eyring Chemist Absolute Rate theory Of Chemical Reactions
Harvey Fletcher invented the hearing aid
Steve Jones (Well we don't have cold fusion yet so I guess thats no big loss)

Yiou know what I've been googling for a good thirty minutes and recognize none of the other names..

[CyrilsScribe]

I refer all to this very funny link on a similar question, with quite a bit more tension around it:
http://subterraneanpress.com/index.php/ ... hn-scalzi/
A short story by John Scalzi, and a very funny one too

There may have been subordinates under Smith that would of started the religion anyway, sometimes removing one person does not effectively disrupt the whole.

[Simon_Jester]

Given the migrations happening at that time in the United States (all by variant christin religions), it's entirely possible the Gold Rush would have still happened. In the same general time period. Possibly initiated by the same man.

However, I agree that Mormonism's removal altering the California Gold Rush would be interesting.

A god rush doesn't require any specific publicizer; all that's going to affect is the timing. The sociological reasons for the California gold rush didn't depend on Brannan being the publicizer; it depended on people on the East Coast eventually finding out that there were large deposits of gold in California. Word would have gotten out.

I refer all to this very funny link on a similar question, with quite a bit more tension around it:
http://subterraneanpress.com/index.php/ ... hn-scalzi/
A short story by John Scalzi, and a very funny one too

There may have been subordinates under Smith that would of started the religion anyway, sometimes removing one person does not effectively disrupt the whole.

On the other hand, sometimes it does; after all, it was Smith's "discovery" of the Book of Mormon that gave them a standard to rally around.

[Straha]

(Out of curiosity, why is this thread here and not in History?)

A number of things would happen.

First, Abraham Lincoln might never have become President. He got his start as an Illinois politician, and the Mormon Church under Joseph Smith founded, built up, and controlled Nauvoo, Illinois, which was the largest city in the state. Prominent politicians like Stephen Douglas and others went to Nauvoo to court the favor of Smith because of the large bloc vote they were guaranteed to get. They were very influential to getting a number of politicians elected, and completely changed the political dynamic in the state.

Second, the western states of the U.S.A would look very different. Brigham Young was the first governor of the "Utah Territories" which covered Utah, Nevada, and parts of Wyoming and Colorado. This was only broken up because Young was removed from the Governorship after the Mountain Meadows Massacre and subsequently had the United States Army come barreling through. With no LDS Church, there's no ready to install Governor of the Territories and also no reason to break up the territories after he puts his church before the States and thus no reason to break them up. A lot of cities and towns would be in different places to, and Salt Lake City would almost definitely not exist.

Third, Polygamy wont be made illegal by ruling of the Supreme Court. They did it because of the Mormons. 'Nugh said.

Fourth, the Boy Scouts of America would look very very different. One of their main contributors and supporters is the LDS Church. Without an LDS Church to keep them going they would probably have folded by now. Or at least let Atheists and Gays serve openly.

Fifth, there would be missiles based in the Great Salt Lake Basin. The number one reason why MX and Minuteman missiles weren't based in the west on great big moving trains during the 80s was because the LDS Church threw a shit fit and rallied all sorts of political opposition to it because they didn't want their land to become target numero uno on the Soviet Nuke list. On that note:

Sixth, there'd be an Equal Rights ammendment.

Seventh, the media business in America would look very very different. The Mormons bought up huge sections of Radio and TV land, and were helped by FCC officials who were also members of the Church. Without them the media landscape of the states would look rather different. (Probably much more small business friendly.)

Eighth, there'd be a smaller white population in Northern Mexico, and less people in Western Canada. Both were colonized by Mormon polygamists fleeing the states after Polygamy was declared illegal in the states.

That's just a bare bones start. None of these changes would, necessarily, be "bad". Not very good either, though. So... yeah.

[Simon_Jester]

Re: the missiles, in particular.

I thought it was also a question of choking the rail network by trying to run big missile trains all over it continuously.

[Straha]

There were quite a few things at question with the plan, but the thing that killed it dead in its track was the LDS Church making it utterly clear, in no uncertain terms, that it would oppose the plan lock stock and barrel and spend its billions to stop it from getting off the ground.

You should talk to someone like Stuart of Sea Skimmer for all the reasons why the plan Would Not Have Worked, but the main political force against it was the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints, and it's a huge testament to their political clout and ability that they are able to kill plans like that dead in their tracks.

[Guardsman Bass]

With no LDS Church, there's no ready to install Governor of the Territories and also no reason to break up the territories after he puts his church before the States and thus no reason to break them up. A lot of cities and towns would be in different places to, and Salt Lake City would almost definitely not exist.

The settlement pattern in what is now "Utah" would be vastly different, that's for sure. Young made it a specific point to call groups of Mormons living in Salt Lake Valley (or even new arrivals) to do colonization efforts across the state, which is how almost all of the major towns (and most of the minor ones that weren't miner towns) got their start. For example, there's Logan (founded by Mormon settlers in 1859), Provo (settled by Mormons in 1849), St. George (settled by Mormons in 1861) - the list goes on. Without that effort, most of the cities in Utah would be ex-mining towns, with a few larger areas where the land was good enough. Large tracts of areas where small and medium-sized communities sprang up in real history would probably be private ranching land instead.

While it (Salt Lake City) would be a much different city, I don't agree with the idea that it would "almost definitely not exist". It was a known area, with some good farmland (if a dry climate - but part of the reason why the Mormons settled there first was because of earlier reports on this by John Fremont), near mountains where mining could and did occur, along a potential road and later rail route through the western United States.

Sixth, there'd be an Equal Rights ammendment.

Yes. A big part of the blame for its failure lies at the feet of LDS Church efforts against it.

[Serafine666]

And Serafine666, if anything Superman is giving the nicer, more family-friendly version of Mormon history.

I actually thought he was giving the fictional version of Mormon history but was a creative enough person not to dwell on the same old things. So if his version is "nicer more family-friendly", what's the meaner and less family-friendly version?

[Samuel]

Getting back to the OP - Buddhism also has a specific founder and starting point, with historical evidence of Siddhartha Gautama's existence.

Aside from the 3 mentioned, Sikhism, Zorocrastianism and possibly Taoism also have a definitive founder.

[Straha]

And Serafine666, if anything Superman is giving the nicer, more family-friendly version of Mormon history.

I actually thought he was giving the fictional version of Mormon history but was a creative enough person not to dwell on the same old things. So if his version is "nicer more family-friendly", what's the meaner and less family-friendly version?

Abridged: Joseph Smith, a treasure hunting fraudster who claimed to hunt for buried pirate treasure across New York and Pennsylvania using seeing stones1, wanted to gain fame by claiming to have received visions from a being of light called Nephi and having received a new holy text which was buried in golden plates about Hebrews who came to America and started civilization, blatantly plagiarizing a couple of books that had come out a decade before the Book of Mormon. Setting up shop behind a curtain so that no one could see what he was doing Joseph Smith then convinced gullible people like Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris that the books actually existed. When there was an attempt to fact check this made by Harris' wife where she took 116 pages of translated material and asked for Smith to retranslate a section of the plates again Smith, in a damning move of guilt, declared that God had said he couldn't do this. Then he forced Harris to mortgage his farm to publish the book of Mormon (now called so because Smith changed the name of the being of light who came to him,) something which helped to financially ruin him.

Fast forward a bit to after Smith had moved camp to Kirtland, OH and was forcing Mormons to re-settle there. While there Smith decided he wants to take multiple women as wives, and proceeded to start acting on these desires, taking many teen-aged women, as well as wives of other men, as "wives." When these girls' husbands found out they were often ostracized on missions to far off-lands (if they weren't already) or driven out of community. This is especially problematic because Smith is now preaching communal ownership of all properties, which means that the Church is given title to all possessions and money that comes into the hands of members of the church, in practice this means everyone gives Joe Smith money which he then spends as he sees fit, and often swindles. He then began trying to settle in Missouri, engaged in mob action there and, after resistance by locals to a massive influx of unwelcome northerners buying up land en masse and driving natives out, even marched south with an "Army of God" which he almost put into action.

Fast forward to Nauvoo, Il., while there Smith incorporates Masonic secret rituals as "endowments" revealed to him from God to get into heaven, and spreads this secretly amongst a select group of men. He then encourages and forces these men to engage in secret Polygamy as well, which they go along with. After raising a literal army with Smith as its "Major-General", engaging in a number of financially fraudulent dealings, and taking control of a portion of the Illinois political machine Smith was revealed as a polygamist by a Nauvoo newspaper. Reacting to this Smith had the printing press of the paper destroyed, triggering his arrest (this after dodging four or five previous attempts to arrest him through legal technicalities by being the Mayor of Nauvoo.) While in prison Smith is killed by a mob in protest over his abuses.

Following this there are multiple schisms in the Mormon community, with a major section moving west to Utah and settling in Salt Lake City. The only defining characteristic of this sect being its militant Polygamist nature. To give a short list of Young's sins he: says that Adam was a God, engages in blatant racism (that was carried on until 1979), sets himself up as ruler of a fiefdom in Utah despite the wishes of the Mexican and then U.S. governments, massacres white settlers who were coming his way, encourages Polygamy and drives men out of the LDS settlements to ensure there are enough women to go around, and does everything he can to isolate the Mormon church from the rest of the world.

I wont go into the stuff about the Church today. But let's just say that it's usually thrown around that A. the LDS Church ain't Christian, B. uses Temple Access to control its membership and force them to give over their tithing in what amounts to extortion, C. uses its religious power to pull a tremendous amount of political authority, and D. never really renounced Polygamy. The problem that LDS Apologists have here, and with the general history, is that all of this is more or less true and what's up for interpretation is the intentions behind it.

Sorry if this was rushed, I've been busy with other things while writing this. If you have questions or want elaborations feel free to ask.

1. True facts.

[Serafine666]

Abridged: Joseph Smith, a treasure hunting fraudster who claimed to hunt for buried pirate treasure across New York and Pennsylvania using seeing stones1, wanted to gain fame by claiming to have received visions from a being of light called Nephi and having received a new holy text which was buried in golden plates about Hebrews who came to America and started civilization, blatantly plagiarizing a couple of books that had come out a decade before the Book of Mormon. Setting up shop behind a curtain so that no one could see what he was doing Joseph Smith then convinced gullible people like Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris that the books actually existed. When there was an attempt to fact check this made by Harris' wife where she took 116 pages of translated material and asked for Smith to retranslate a section of the plates again Smith, in a damning move of guilt, declared that God had said he couldn't do this. Then he forced Harris to mortgage his farm to publish the book of Mormon (now called so because Smith changed the name of the being of light who came to him,) something which helped to financially ruin him.

Fast forward a bit to after Smith had moved camp to Kirtland, OH and was forcing Mormons to re-settle there. While there Smith decided he wants to take multiple women as wives, and proceeded to start acting on these desires, taking many teen-aged women, as well as wives of other men, as "wives." When these girls' husbands found out they were often ostracized on missions to far off-lands (if they weren't already) or driven out of community. This is especially problematic because Smith is now preaching communal ownership of all properties, which means that the Church is given title to all possessions and money that comes into the hands of members of the church, in practice this means everyone gives Joe Smith money which he then spends as he sees fit, and often swindles. He then began trying to settle in Missouri, engaged in mob action there and, after resistance by locals to a massive influx of unwelcome northerners buying up land en masse and driving natives out, even marched south with an "Army of God" which he almost put into action.

Fast forward to Nauvoo, Il., while there Smith incorporates Masonic secret rituals as "endowments" revealed to him from God to get into heaven, and spreads this secretly amongst a select group of men. He then encourages and forces these men to engage in secret Polygamy as well, which they go along with. After raising a literal army with Smith as its "Major-General", engaging in a number of financially fraudulent dealings, and taking control of a portion of the Illinois political machine Smith was revealed as a polygamist by a Nauvoo newspaper. Reacting to this Smith had the printing press of the paper destroyed, triggering his arrest (this after dodging four or five previous attempts to arrest him through legal technicalities by being the Mayor of Nauvoo.) While in prison Smith is killed by a mob in protest over his abuses.

Following this there are multiple schisms in the Mormon community, with a major section moving west to Utah and settling in Salt Lake City. The only defining characteristic of this sect being its militant Polygamist nature. To give a short list of Young's sins he: says that Adam was a God, engages in blatant racism (that was carried on until 1979), sets himself up as ruler of a fiefdom in Utah despite the wishes of the Mexican and then U.S. governments, massacres white settlers who were coming his way, encourages Polygamy and drives men out of the LDS settlements to ensure there are enough women to go around, and does everything he can to isolate the Mormon church from the rest of the world.

I wont go into the stuff about the Church today. But let's just say that it's usually thrown around that A. the LDS Church ain't Christian, B. uses Temple Access to control its membership and force them to give over their tithing in what amounts to extortion, C. uses its religious power to pull a tremendous amount of political authority, and D. never really renounced Polygamy. The problem that LDS Apologists have here, and with the general history, is that all of this is more or less true and what's up for interpretation is the intentions behind it.

Sorry if this was rushed, I've been busy with other things while writing this. If you have questions or want elaborations feel free to ask.

1. True facts.

Wow... the thing about that that is especially interesting to me is that at every major point, it agrees with the history of the Mormons as told by the Mormons but with a different interpretation of the facts at hand. Since you invited questions:
1. Where is it recorded that Smith claimed to have been visited by a being of light either called Nephi or Mormon? The only claim I've ever heard was that Smith called the being of light "Moroni." Interestingly enough, I believe that the name of the angel depicted in the statue that Mormons place atop most of their temples is named Moroni.
2. Which books did he plagiarize? I think I've heard the name of one of the authors that he was meant to have plagiarized from but I'd never heard of there being many books.
3. When was the person who took the 116 pages positively identified to Smith and the request to retranslate those pages given to him? I cannot recall having read that Smith ever knew who'd taken the pages which seems to preclude the possibility that he was asked to retranslate them.
4. Didn't 11 different people claim to have seen and held the gold plates, including Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery? I'm referring to the "Testimony of Three Witnesses" and "Testimony of Eight Witnesses" that are published in the back of the Book of Mormon.
5. How much of an effect did the Panic of 1837 have on the situation of the Mormons in Kirkland?
6. Is the "Army of God" the same as "Zion's Camp" or are you referring to something different?
7. What were the specific charges alleged by the Nauvoo Expositor? I had always been under the impression that it wasn't because it said Smith was a polygamist but because it claimed that he was trying to create a theocracy, was a fallen prophet, and had forced young girls into plural marriages.
8. If Young's objective was to isolate the Mormons from the rest of the world, what was the origins of the "Mormon Brigade" during the Mexican-American War? Having members of the church volunteer for military service doesn't seem to be particularly isolationist.
Now, concerning points A, B, C, and D:
A. What are the specific ways in which Mormons are said to depart from Christian doctrine?
B. Isn't having members of the sect give money a fairly common practice among all three major monotheistic religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism)? If yes, how is the Mormon practice different enough to be extortion?
C. Couldn't that be said of any religion at all? It seems that at least in America, the religious people constitute a pretty unified voting bloc which seems to mean that leaders of more than one church are exerting their religious power to gain tremendous amounts of political authority/influence.
D. What's the difference between ceasing the practice and excommunicating those who refuse to stop and renouncing polygamy?

I hope you don't take any of the questions to be hostile or accusatory or anything... I'm just trying to get a better idea of your specifics.