IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

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IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Count Chocula »

On the heels of a delay in the timeline for countries to set CO2 targets per Copenhagen, now there's this from The Times UK Online:
Times UK wrote:From The Times January 21, 2010

UN climate chief admits mistake on Himalayan glaciers warning

The UN’s top climate change body has issued an unprecedented apology over its flawed prediction that Himalayan glaciers were likely to disappear by 2035.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) said yesterday that the prediction in its landmark 2007 report was “poorly substantiated” and resulted from a lapse in standards. “In drafting the paragraph in question the clear and well-established standards of evidence, required by the IPCC procedures, were not applied properly,” the panel said. “The chair, vice-chair and co-chairs of the IPCC regret the poor application of IPCC procedures in this instance.”

The stunning admission is certain to embolden critics of the panel, already under fire over a separate scandal involving hacked e-mails last year.

The 2007 report, which won the panel the Nobel Peace Prize, said that the probability of Himalayan glaciers “disappearing by the year 2035 and perhaps sooner is very high”. It caused shock in Asia, where about two billion people depend on meltwater from Himalayan glaciers for their fresh water supplies during the dry seasons.

It emerged last week that the prediction was based not on a consensus among climate change experts but on a media interview with a single Indian glaciologist in 1999. That scientist, Syed Hasnain, has now told The Times that he never made such a specific forecast in his interview with the New Scientist magazine.

“I have not made any prediction on date as I am not an astrologer but I did say they were shrinking fast,” he said. “I have never written 2035 in any of my research papers or reports.” Professor Hasnain works for The Energy and Resources Institute (TERI) in Delhi, which is headed by Rajendra Pachauri, head of the climate change panel.

Dr Pachauri has defended the panel’s work, while trying to distance himself from Professor Hasnain by saying that the latter was not working at the institute in 1999: “We slipped up on one number, I don’t think it takes anything away from the overwhelming scientific evidence of what’s happening with the climate of this Earth.”

Professor Hasnain confirmed that he had given an interview to Fred Pearce, of New Scientist, when he was still working for Jawaharlal Nehru University in 1999. “I said that small glaciers in the eastern and central Himalaya are declining at an alarming rate and in the next 40-50 years they may lose substantial mass,” he said. “That means they will shrink in area and mass. To which the journalist has assigned a date and reported it in his own way.” Mr Pearce was not immediately available for comment.

Despite the controversy, the IPCC said that it stood by its overall conclusions about glacier loss this century in big mountain ranges including the Himalayas. “This conclusion is robust, appropriate, and entirely consistent with the underlying science and the broader IPCC assessment,” it said.

The scandal threatens to undermine the panel’s credibility as it begins the marathon process of drafting its Fifth Assessment Reports, which are due out in 2013-14. Georg Kaser, a leading Austrian glaciologist who contributed to the 2007 report, described the glacier mistake as huge and said that he had warned colleagues about it months before publication.

The error is also now being exploited by climate sceptics, many of whom are convinced that stolen e-mail exchanges last year revealed a conspiracy to exaggerate the evidence supporting global warming.

Jairam Ramesh, the Indian Environment Minister, said on Tuesday the scandal vindicated his position that there was no proof that Himalayan glaciers were melting abnormally fast. “The IPCC claim that glaciers will vanish by 2035 was not based on an iota of scientific evidence,” he said.

Monitoring Himalayan glaciers is extremely difficult because most of them lie in some of the most inhospitable terrain in the word at an altitude of more than 5,000 metres (16,000ft).

Most studies until now have therefore been based necessarily on a mixture of outdated and incomplete data, satellite imagery, photography, and anecdotal evidence.

Last year, however, TERI launched a project to install high-tech sensors on three glaciers which it will use as benchmarks to assess the situation across the Himalayas.

Professor Hasnain, who is running the project, said that he would soon be presenting a report on the status of Himalayan glaciers, based on research works by Indian and international scientists published in different peer reviewed journals across the world.

He hopes that these studies will help to produce more incontrovertible evidence that the Himalayan glaciers are under threat. In the short term, however, it seems they will do little to convince climate change sceptics, or to repair the image of the IPCC.
So last year we learned that the most influential climate change research group committed various peccadillos, and based their conclusions on a model that the programmer called a pile of shit, which wasn't peer-reviewed. The debunked Mann "Hockey Stick Chart" was likewise devoid of peer review when it was published, IIRC. Now we have the IPCC basing a key part of their report on...the opinion of a science journalist! I'm not sure what aspect is worse, that the journalist misinterpreted the words of the scientist he interviewed, or that the staff of the IPCC failed to catch the teeny tiny little point that the glacial melting rate was not quantified in any fashion, either in volume or timing, by the scientist conducting the research! And STILL the IPCC contends that this gross research error doesn't invalidate their conclusions! I haven't read the report; maybe their conclusions are so general that facts just, I dunno, have anything to do with them.

This story, on top of last year's e-mail leaks from England, is another blow to the IPCC's credibility and (for me anyway) casts doubts on the UN's actual motives regarding global controls/agreements/limits/taxes on CO2 emissions.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by MKSheppard »

This sheds more light onto why the Indians started up their own climate change unit -- because what they were getting from their own observations weren't jiving with the predictions the IPCC were making.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Count Chocula »

Yeah, if I were one of the 2 billion people who relied on glacial meltwater during droughts, I'd be pretty fucking concerned...if this were a true figure. If I were one of those 2 billion people who now knows the IPCC threw out an arbitrary number, doesn't really know what's happening, and are mindlessly sticking to their Nobel prize-winning guns, I'd now be seriously pissed off.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by bobalot »

Instead of disappearing altogether, the glaciers will simply be losing substantial mass.

You do realise this is exactly what peer review is?
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Right, and maybe they shouldn't have been awarded the Nobel fucking Peace prize and its multimillion dollar award until the research of its findings had actually been through something resembling a peer review process. But fuck that, they get a pass because you agree with them. Brilliant!

Shoddy programming and bullshit projections, definitely not something that might go hand in hand when making complex environmental modeling programs that trillions of dollars of policy will be based on. Fuck no! They have to be right because...... Fuck you!
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Count Chocula »

bobalot wrote:Instead of disappearing altogether, the glaciers will simply be losing substantial mass.

You do realise this is exactly what peer review is?
Uh, yeah, and I also understand that peer review of the seminal IPCC paper was either not done or poorly done in this case, by the IPCC's own admission. Basing global policies like the UN is attempting to do, with enormous financial impacts, without proper review is IMO unwise. The UN, Al Gore, and their ilk appear to be acting like someone yelling "FIRE!" in a swimming pool.

You also missed the key assertion in the IPCC paper, namely that the glaciers will be fucking GONE in 25 years or sooner ZOMG!, and you prefaced your "peer review" nitpick with a so-far unsupported or unquantified assertion about the melt rate of the glaciers themselves. Scientifical-type peer review, if I recall correctly, requires valid data and supportable conclusions, both of which are missing in the IPCC position and your reply.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Guardsman Bass »

So last year we learned that the most influential climate change research group committed various peccadillos, and based their conclusions on a model that the programmer called a pile of shit, which wasn't peer-reviewed.
The various predictions were peer-reviewed and tested.
The debunked Mann "Hockey Stick Chart" was likewise devoid of peer review when it was published, IIRC.
Mann's chart was not "debunked" - as has been pointed out elsewhere, its conclusion (that late 20th century temperature was abnormally high by historical standards) is supported by a multitude of other reconstructions of northern hemisphere temperature by different groups.

As for peer review, Mann et all 1998 was published in Nature, a journal with peer review.
Now we have the IPCC basing a key part of their report on...the opinion of a science journalist! I'm not sure what aspect is worse, that the journalist misinterpreted the words of the scientist he interviewed, or that the staff of the IPCC failed to catch the teeny tiny little point that the glacial melting rate was not quantified in any fashion, either in volume or timing, by the scientist conducting the research!
And as you just pointed out, they acknowledged that mistake when the science showed that it wasn't valid, and changed the report accordingly. That's good science, practiced by a scientific body (the IPCC) that is not infallible.
And STILL the IPCC contends that this gross research error doesn't invalidate their conclusions! I haven't read the report; maybe their conclusions are so general that facts just, I dunno, have anything to do with them.
They are not. You would know that, if you read the report and didn't have the mentality of a creationist when it comes to climate change. It's a broad field with many areas of research, and pointing out that a specific set of predictions on one particular outcome (the melting rate of Himalayan glaciers) does not invalidate the entire body of research.
This story, on top of last year's e-mail leaks from England, is another blow to the IPCC's credibility and (for me anyway) casts doubts on the UN's actual motives regarding global controls/agreements/limits/taxes on CO2 emissions.
The UN includes a whole host of members such as China and Saudi Arabia who have little desire to see binding agreements put in place to curb emissions, and whom actually have influence on the political side of the process.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Big Phil »

bobalot wrote:Instead of disappearing altogether, the glaciers will simply be losing substantial mass.

You do realise this is exactly what peer review is?
The problem with your defense of this fuckup is that it does two things:
1. Makes an "end justifies the means" argument, which is just idiotic
2. Continues to make climate scientists and their supporters look like lying fuckups to the critics. It's not that fucking hard to validate and verify the data BEFORE you fucking publish it. Between this fuckup and the email issues, critics have tons of ammunition to lob at the climatologists - nothing disproving their argument, but to an ignoramus the appearance of impropriety and/or dishonesty is virtually the same as the real thing.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by MKSheppard »

I like this:

It emerged last week that the prediction was based not on a consensus among climate change experts but on a media interview with a single Indian glaciologist in 1999. That scientist, Syed Hasnain, has now told The Times that he never made such a specific forecast in his interview with the New Scientist magazine.

So basically:

1.) cherry pick a statement by one guy during an interview.
2.) Splash it all over the media as an accurate prediction.
3.) ????
4.) NOBEL PRIZE!

Hot damn, if this is the quality of Climate Science, I better write how we're headed for another ice age, and how the Great Lakes will freeze by 2080!

Shit, I think I'm onto something!

I've already reserved space on my shelf for my Nobel. :mrgreen:
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Isolder74 »

MKSheppard wrote:1.) cherry pick a statement by one guy during an interview.
2.) Splash it all over the media as an accurate prediction.
3.) ????
4.) NOBEL PRIZE!

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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Paradoxical »

I can practically see the semen flowing through this thread.

So in essence we know glaciers in the Himalayas and around the world are declining due to global climate change, but because some insane number slipped into a report we must conclude global warming is a vast conspiracy.

That appears to be the argument some of you are trying to make.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Guardsman Bass »

It's more like:

1. Statement on Himalayan glaciers referencing a WWF gets added at the last minute (it doesn't appear in either the First- or Second- Order drafts, nor the Summary for Policymakers). IPCC doesn't catch it, which does happen - the editing process isn't infallible.

2. Media picks up on reference, thinks "Sweet Jesus! This is a problem!"

3. Problem gets air-time.

4. Somebody points out that this is badly sourced, and wrong.

5. IPCC acknowledges the problem, promises to change the reference and remove it from the report and future reports without further proof.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Big Phil »

Guardsman Bass wrote:It's more like:

1. Statement on Himalayan glaciers referencing a WWF gets added at the last minute (it doesn't appear in either the First- or Second- Order drafts, nor the Summary for Policymakers). IPCC doesn't catch it, which does happen - the editing process isn't infallible.

2. Media picks up on reference, thinks "Sweet Jesus! This is a problem!"

3. Problem gets air-time.

4. Somebody points out that this is badly sourced, and wrong.

5. IPCC acknowledges the problem, promises to change the reference and remove it from the report and future reports without further proof.
You missed a step:

6. Global warming deniers jump all over this, claim that all of the data is made up or incorrect, and climatologists respond by saying "fuck you, it was just one minor screw up you preliterate ingrate!" which of course endears them to their opponents and causes the mindless middle to assume that since the climatologists are acting like asshole they must have something to hide.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

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How do people express shock that Nobel prize winning work wasn't thoroughly reviewed while at the same time maintaining that the Nobel prize was a joke when Obama was awarded it? There seems to be a lot of indoctrination into the prestigiousness of the award that it clearly doesn't deserve.

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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

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Themightytom wrote:How do people express shock that Nobel prize winning work wasn't thoroughly reviewed while at the same time maintaining that the Nobel prize was a joke when Obama was awarded it? There seems to be a lot of indoctrination into the prestigiousness of the award that it clearly doesn't deserve.
The peace prize has usually been a joke. But the ones awarded in Hard Sciences? They usually only get awarded during period well after the discovery -- for example, the guys who discovered DNA discovered it in '53, but didn't get the Nobel until '62.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by General Zod »

MKSheppard wrote:
Themightytom wrote:How do people express shock that Nobel prize winning work wasn't thoroughly reviewed while at the same time maintaining that the Nobel prize was a joke when Obama was awarded it? There seems to be a lot of indoctrination into the prestigiousness of the award that it clearly doesn't deserve.
The peace prize has usually been a joke. But the ones awarded in Hard Sciences? They usually only get awarded during period well after the discovery -- for example, the guys who discovered DNA discovered it in '53, but didn't get the Nobel until '62.
The IPCC won a peace prize. How do the hard science prizes apply?
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

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General Zod wrote:The IPCC won a peace prize.
I take back whatever I said before. :wtf:
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

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MKSheppard wrote:
Themightytom wrote:How do people express shock that Nobel prize winning work wasn't thoroughly reviewed while at the same time maintaining that the Nobel prize was a joke when Obama was awarded it? There seems to be a lot of indoctrination into the prestigiousness of the award that it clearly doesn't deserve.
The peace prize has usually been a joke. But the ones awarded in Hard Sciences? They usually only get awarded during period well after the discovery -- for example, the guys who discovered DNA discovered it in '53, but didn't get the Nobel until '62.
The "guys who discovered DNA" stole the work of Rosalind Franklin, cobbled some shit and guesswork together really quickly and rush-published a paper that just so happened to be right, and then spent the rest of their lives pissing on her memory after she died of cancer that she probably got as a result of her own research. Fuck the Nobel committees.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Erik von Nein »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:You missed a step:

6. Global warming deniers jump all over this, claim that all of the data is made up or incorrect, and climatologists respond by saying "fuck you, it was just one minor screw up you preliterate ingrate!" which of course endears them to their opponents and causes the mindless middle to assume that since the climatologists are acting like asshole they must have something to hide.
So, what scientists are actually acting like that? Not the people over at Real Climate (quite a few of the climatologists who were involved in the first place), no one at the IPCC, certainly not the person who made the claim in the first place, and no one in this thread has. So, who is?
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

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You know what's really amazing me? The IPCC, one of the chief members of the international conspiracy to fabricate global warming as a human product (see also the climate center in England whose emails were leaked, another major player), has come out and admitted that it screwed something up in its report, and retracted the prediction. It being a big part of the conspiracy I'd have thought that they would either stick to their guns until the bitter end, while tracking down and ensuring the professional death of the Indian scientist who blew the whistle, or they would pretend it had never happened and revise all of their past reports which included it to make the datum disappear. Huh.
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by Winston Blake »

Surlethe wrote:You know what's really amazing me? The IPCC, one of the chief members of the international conspiracy to fabricate global warming as a human product (see also the climate center in England whose emails were leaked, another major player), has come out and admitted that it screwed something up in its report, and retracted the prediction. It being a big part of the conspiracy I'd have thought that they would either stick to their guns until the bitter end, while tracking down and ensuring the professional death of the Indian scientist who blew the whistle, or they would pretend it had never happened and revise all of their past reports which included it to make the datum disappear. Huh.
That's exactly what they wanted you to think. This is a decoy, a point they could afford to lose. They're 'admitting' this Himalayan thing just to lull people into a false sense of security. 'Oh look at us, we're so magnanimous and reasonable. We're not trying to fluoridate your power lines'. Sure, buddy, sure. If they can let this go, then just imagine what they're really hiding! :wtf: :shock:
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Re: IPCC Says Himalayas Glaciers Gone by 2035! Oops, Never Mind.

Post by His Divine Shadow »

NM, I need to read better.
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