Tyranids vs the Galactic Empire

[adam_grif]

But how can the Jedi sense 40k warp stuff? It's not the Dark Side of the Force. Hell, how can they even sense the genestealer infiltration? It's not like they've got Jedi Force-powered Genetic Screening.

Well, I don't know what the canon stance is, but from watching the movies Jedi can sense abstract concepts like "danger".

[Shroom Man 777]

That's not a 100% guarantee of the Tyrannids, or the stealers, being found out.


Especially when the Galactic Empire doesn't, you know, employ Jedi.

[adam_grif]

That's not a 100% guarantee of the Tyrannids, or the stealers, being found out.


Especially when the Galactic Empire doesn't, you know, employ Jedi.

Never said it was, but they can do whatever the plot requires them to.

Problem is that sometimes, Jedi are prescient, and sometimes, they just stand there and get stabbed (ala RotS attacking the emperor scene). Powers vary, usefulness varies, etc. But I'd definitely say they would be pretty effective at tracking them down.

Of course, I can't possibly quantify this.

[white_rabbit]

Codex Tyranids 5th Edition
Tyranid Hive fleets do not travel through Warpspace. Nonetheless, the Hive Fleets incredible rate of advance belies the supposition that they are bereft of a swift mode of travel.

Whilst it is true that the Tyranids are constrained by sublight speeds whilst within the borders of a planetary ststem, they are capable of far greater velocity when traversing interstellar space. That they can do so is thanks to a small,almost innocuous vessel classified by the Imperium as a Narvhal.
Unlike most tyranid vessels, a Narvhal is almost completely defenceless, with little in the way of bio-weaponry and a comparatively thin protective carapace. A cluster of monofilament spines on the Narvhal's bow enable it to interpret a wide range of sensory input, including an unbelievably broad spectrum of gravimetric signals. Using these senses the Narvhal can detect planetary systems at incredible distances. It can then somehow harness that system's own gravity, creating a compressed-space transit corridor through which the Narvhal, and nearby vessels can cover vast distances. This method cannot be employed near strong gravitational forces, as they drown out the more subtle traces that the Narvhal uses to navigate. As a result, a Tyranid fleet must rely on more conventional propulsion in the final approach, in some cases slowing their arrival by years or even decades. Whilst this combined propulsion method is slower than warp travel, it is infinitely more reliable, allowing the Tyranids to conduct their implacable encroachment across the galaxy.

The Narvhal's manipulation of a star systems's underlying forces is not always without side effects. A prey planet will sometimes be subjected
to earthquakes, Solar flares, tidal waves and other natural disasters in
the time between the Narvhal casting its gravitic snare and the Hive
fleet actually arriving. This only benefits the Tyranids efforts,
guaranteeing as it does that the defenders of the target world will
still be wrestling with planetary disaster when the swarm arrives in
orbit.

So, conclusions, sometimes they have to travel via sublight into a system, which encompasses the times when nids appeared to arrive insystem ala warp travel, and the times where they have drifted in.

If any GE planets start having problems with weird natural disasters, it might be time to slap a few interdictors in orbit, and hope that their "fake" gravity, or however it works, is enough to fuck up the Narvhals senses.

If they could, then they'd long since have used such hyperaccelerated evolutionary capabilities to become completely immune to threats they run into in 40k: their ships would have "evolved" to the point of being able to ignore capital ship lance batteries, they would have "evolved" to be fast enough not to need months to make planetfall after emerging from FTL travel, and so on. Sure, they get tougher over time, but the time scale for major increases in their combat power is measured in decades or centuries, not years.

Incidentally, Hive Fleet Gorgon does do the whole " lol immune" style adaption while munching on some Tau, Nid ground organisms becoming functionally invulnerable to pulse rifle fire, forcing the Tau to fuck around with older weaponry, different ammunition etc. In space their ships become "immune to ion cannon weaponry". The downside is that it forces the nids to use cheap, easily adaptable combat units, lots of resources, and switching to different tactics and weaponry can counter it, i.e the Kroot start fighting, and the ndis take time to adapt.

Eventually the real fuck up is that there aren't enough big Nids on the ground, and an Imperial army turns up, and the variety of munitions is too much to deal with.

As far as interpreting technology, stealing knowledge etc. We know that the Imperium thinks the Nids can obtain strategic information from data systems, presumably with some valid reason, They can integrate with and co-opt Imperial technology such as titans, literally suck out the sum total of an Inquisitors knowledge, including enough technical detail on Imperial communications to allow them to jam and intercept it.

They've also been known to simply plug into some poor bastard and mind control them, in Heart of Rage, a Tyrant literally plugs some tentacles into an Ad-mech guy, and of course things like Cortex leeches exist for direct control as well.

[Srelex]

In regards to the whole genestealer thing, didn't they scan and digest Anakin's genetic code on a device smaller than a mobile phone in Episode I? Given this, and the genestealer habit of using political or religious organizations for their cults, which could narrow it down for Imperial authorities if they follow the same modus operandi, it maybe easier for the Empire to flush them out than the Imperium. Especially as some 'stealer hybrids are still visibly abnormal, although this is balanced by the abundancy of alien species in the Empire.

[Darth Hoth]

Do the Tyranids get the same advantage with respect to infiltration that they have in 40k? Specifically, will they have sent genestealers to thousands of planets in the Empire's Galaxy at some point a few millennia in the past before their fleets were even visible to the galaxy? With an open society like the Old Republic and with Imperial Hyperdrive speeds, the genestealer cults could be quite massive and well ingrained into Imperial society by the time the fleets arrive and activate their sleeper agents. The genestealers would have naturally gravitated towards high positions in teh Imperial Navy and the government. Their sudden uprising could be very problematic for the Empire.

Why should they? Unlike the Imperium of Man, the First Galactic Empire is not a feudal state where whole sectors can fall to Chaos before being discovered. The Empire actually has somewhat competent internal security with a scientific mindset, as opposed to ambulatory witchfinder generals, that uses rapid communications, fact-sifting and cross-referencing archives. There is no reason to suspect that Tyranids would ever pass Imperial screening to get into positions of military authority on any large scale (although given the scope of the galaxy there might well be some local screw-up at some occasion). Even if this massive conspiracy was already in place before the Empire came into being (which probably stretches credibility by itself), there is no reason that the Imperial security agencies should not find it out. That is before magic/Force gobbledygook (aka Palpatine's precognition, Prophets of the Dark Side, &c.) is taken into account.

[Oskuro]

On the other hand, if Force sensibility is a naturally occuring trait of SW-galaxy living creatures, Tyranids might eventually be able to develop sensibility through absorption of biomass, and given how they are this massive eugenics/bioengineering engine, mi8ght be able to produce some particularly strong Force sensitive beings.

[Darth Hoth]

But how can the Jedi sense 40k warp stuff? It's not the Dark Side of the Force. Hell, how can they even sense the genestealer infiltration? It's not like they've got Jedi Force-powered Genetic Screening.

Jedi can sense the difference between the psyches of various species (or at least, the better telepaths can, Jedi powers being known to vary considerably between individuals). Thus, a shapeshifter or human-impersonating alien would presumably sound some alarm bells. The prequel-era Jedi are stupid, but after they hear of several such instances they will start adding one and one to two.

Especially when the Galactic Empire doesn't, you know, employ Jedi.

No, just the Inquisitorius, Dark Jedi, Imperial Guards, Prophets of the Dark Side, Emperor's Hand . . . Depending on source, Palpatine's darksiders are as numerous as the prequel Jedi or more so, and although generally weaker individually, they tend to use their powers more competently (for spying and surveillance and such).

[Simon_Jester]

Incidentally, Hive Fleet Gorgon does do the whole " lol immune" style adaption while munching on some Tau, Nid ground organisms becoming functionally invulnerable to pulse rifle fire, forcing the Tau to fuck around with older weaponry, different ammunition etc. In space their ships become "immune to ion cannon weaponry". The downside is that it forces the nids to use cheap, easily adaptable combat units, lots of resources, and switching to different tactics and weaponry can counter it, i.e the Kroot start fighting, and the ndis take time to adapt.

The catch is that none of that is going to help them adapt to become hyper-powered. The process you describe implies that they can adapt to resist one kind of threat, but only at the cost of becoming more vulnerable to others, and that this is an expensive process.

To evolve immunity to Star Wars-type weapons, at least in space, the Tyranids would have to do the equivalent of adapting their basic 'gaunts (the grunt level forces) to being immune to lascannon fire. I can't see that happening quickly; if it were that easy for them to upgrade themselves, they should have already done it.

[NecronLord]

Why should they? Unlike the Imperium of Man, the First Galactic Empire is not a feudal state where whole sectors can fall to Chaos before being discovered. The Empire actually has somewhat competent internal security with a scientific mindset, as opposed to ambulatory witchfinder generals, that uses rapid communications, fact-sifting and cross-referencing archives.

Just for the record, these apply to the Inquisition too. While I don't dispute that the Inquisitorious and similar groups would do a better job, the Inquisition is far more than ambulatory witchfinder generals; I reccommend the Dark Heresy roleplaying game and the novels that spin off from it, for an idea of how they work; there are ambulatory Inquisitors, but they're more of the nature of caseworkers, following leads, or patrol-men, not simple wanderers. And there are (as in the sample-sector detailed in DH) sectors with substantial ongoing inquisitorial prescense for whatever reason. It's a great disservice to suggest they're disorganised - and the idea that they lack 'fact sifting and cross-referencing archives' is... the only way to describe it that springs to mind is super-wrong.

There is no reason to suspect that Tyranids would ever pass Imperial screening to get into positions of military authority on any large scale (although given the scope of the galaxy there might well be some local screw-up at some occasion). Even if this massive conspiracy was already in place before the Empire came into being (which probably stretches credibility by itself), there is no reason that the Imperial security agencies should not find it out. That is before magic/Force gobbledygook (aka Palpatine's precognition, Prophets of the Dark Side, &c.) is taken into account.

Agreed.

[PainRack]

Even if the Force warns the Jedi about these genestealer cults, and all the evidence we have is that the Force isn't quite up to warning Jedi about existential threats to the Republic as opposed to an imminent physical attack on the Jedi himself, there isn't a whole lot they could do to stop them.

That's due to the Shroud of the Dark Side than anything. Indeed, the Jedi small numbers were supposed to reflect the Jedi Council ability to predict attacks. The failure of the Jedi Council to predict the assasination of Amidala was considered shocking to the Jedi council, remember?

Still, you're probably right in that even if the Jedi did know about it, the nature of the threat may prevent an effective response.

That's not a 100% guarantee of the Tyrannids, or the stealers, being found out.

Especially when the Galactic Empire doesn't, you know, employ Jedi.

The Empire has the advantages of the ISB and so forth, that successfully broke the majority of Rebel cells or infiltrated them and etc in the RASB.
More importantly,compared to the Imperium, they have FTL comns and superior data analysis. The New Rebellion "outlier" is simply astounding.
AOTC also shows that the Jedi Temple logs and analyzes weapons types, given the astounding number of indigenious cultures out there for small arms, that's a huge database. The failure to examine the weapons for cultural markings is a failure of programming.

[Darth Hoth]

Just for the record, these apply to the Inquisition too. While I don't dispute that the Inquisitorious and similar groups would do a better job, the Inquisition is far more than ambulatory witchfinder generals; I reccommend the Dark Heresy roleplaying game and the novels that spin off from it, for an idea of how they work; there are ambulatory Inquisitors, but they're more of the nature of caseworkers, following leads, or patrol-men, not simple wanderers. And there are (as in the sample-sector detailed in DH) sectors with substantial ongoing inquisitorial prescense for whatever reason. It's a great disservice to suggest they're disorganised - and the idea that they lack 'fact sifting and cross-referencing archives' is... the only way to describe it that springs to mind is super-wrong.

You would know such things better than I, given that I have been more or less out of the loop on Games Workshop over the last few years. I went with the description given in the Inquisitor (the tabletop game) rulebook and assorted fluff, the most in-depth source on them in particular that I know reasonably well, which as I recall it tends to emphasise the fractious and inefficient nature of the Inquisition (what with there being a huge number of radically divergent sects that tend not to cooperate very well, and so on). My general impression was that they had little overall direction.

The popular depiction of the Inquisitor that I have seen (Inquisitor, White Dwarf and most novels I have read) generally seems to suggest Inquisitorial agents with extraordinary powers working in fairly loose patterns, if not entirely without supervision, although some stuff might point towards more of a formal hierarchy. What does the later fluff say about the Inquisition as it stands? In broad, what kind of organisation do they have, and how functional is it?

[NecronLord]

More specifically, they don't analyse for cultural markings of one specific type; they do look for symbols and such. "Those droids only focus on symbols..."

[Ryan Thunder]

Incidentally, Hive Fleet Gorgon does do the whole " lol immune" style adaption while munching on some Tau, Nid ground organisms becoming functionally invulnerable to pulse rifle fire, forcing the Tau to fuck around with older weaponry, different ammunition etc.

No limits nonsensical Borg-wanker-style "adaptation," that is. They adapted to pulse weapons, so the Tau started using kroot rifles because they were more effective--even though they both apparently use similar ammunition, if I've understood my Tau 'dex correctly. Obviously, the authour is talking out of his ass--which he probably wouldn't be able to differentiate from a hole in the ground, given that he apparently thinks that "refractive mucous membranes" are sufficient to protect against high-power lasers.

[Simon_Jester]

No limits nonsensical Borg-wanker-style "adaptation," that is. They adapted to pulse weapons, so the Tau started using kroot rifles because they were more effective--even though they both apparently use similar ammunition, if I've understood my Tau 'dex correctly. Obviously, the authour is talking out of his ass--which he probably wouldn't be able to differentiate from a hole in the ground, given that he apparently thinks that "refractive mucous membranes" are sufficient to protect against high-power lasers.

My impression was that kroot rifles fire solid slugs; pulse rifles are energy weapons. They're not just bigger versions of the Imperium lasgun, either, unless I am badly mistaken.

If we strip out the overt stupidity, it is reasonable that if we grant the Tyranids the ability to bioengineer living creatures tough enough to compete with armed soldiers on the battlefield, they have at least some degree of flexibility and customizability. There are specialized defenses that will work well against lasers, for instance, better than an equivalent weight of more generic armor material might.

The disadvantage is that in "adaptation," as in real life engineering, optimizing yourself to better protect against a specific threat has costs. The advantage is that it's much easier to do than cranking up your all-round general level of protection against everything.

My understanding of Borg (and Tyranid) adaptation as portrayed, not as hyped in the backstory, is that most of what they do works like that. They can easily adapt to specific threats that they have a known counter for, often at the cost of sacrificing defense against another threat, or at increased cost in resources. But that flexibility in the details of their design does not equate to an overall, absolute ability to automatically overcome any threat they might face.

[NecronLord]

Incidentally, Hive Fleet Gorgon does do the whole " lol immune" style adaption while munching on some Tau, Nid ground organisms becoming functionally invulnerable to pulse rifle fire, forcing the Tau to fuck around with older weaponry, different ammunition etc.

No limits nonsensical Borg-wanker-style "adaptation," that is. They adapted to pulse weapons, so the Tau started using kroot rifles because they were more effective--even though they both apparently use similar ammunition, if I've understood my Tau 'dex correctly. Obviously, the authour is talking out of his ass--which he probably wouldn't be able to differentiate from a hole in the ground, given that he apparently thinks that "refractive mucous membranes" are sufficient to protect against high-power lasers.

No, you didn't. Having just read it, it's that they created 'nids with thicker armour capable of resisting the Tau's weapons, and the Tau were forced to use prototypes and modifications to be as effective against them. The Kroot engaged the 'nids in dense forests, and the hive eventually bred gaunts that were able to out-fight the kroot successfully, but at the cost of the armour. All reasonable tradeoffs, better explained than this in the text. The kroot's pulse bullets are not effective.

All the 'nids did was tinker with the balance between armour and agility etc, exploiting their enemies' deficiency; but the forces they'd spawned optimised only against one type of fighting failed when confronted with another.

[Serafina]

Incidentally, Hive Fleet Gorgon does do the whole " lol immune" style adaption while munching on some Tau, Nid ground organisms becoming functionally invulnerable to pulse rifle fire, forcing the Tau to fuck around with older weaponry, different ammunition etc.

No limits nonsensical Borg-wanker-style "adaptation," that is. They adapted to pulse weapons, so the Tau started using kroot rifles because they were more effective--even though they both apparently use similar ammunition, if I've understood my Tau 'dex correctly. Obviously, the authour is talking out of his ass--which he probably wouldn't be able to differentiate from a hole in the ground, given that he apparently thinks that "refractive mucous membranes" are sufficient to protect against high-power lasers.

Bullshit.

I do not know how it was portrayed in the story, but from what i have read here, this "adaptation" is pretty reasonable.

All they had to do was to put some heat-resistant material into the natural armor of their species, and voila, you have "adapted" to their weaponery.
You can expand this - damage inflicted by heat will be handled than damage from a bullet - so you do not have to worry about damage of internal organs as much etc.
Given that smaller Tyranid creatures are made for a single invasion (or even battle), that is far from unreasonable.

Since Pulse Rifles and Kroot guns are vastly different (high-speed energy projectile vs. slow moving heavy slug), it is pretty easy to imagine that one kind of armor will work well against one, but not the other. Same goes for other internal modifications.

Complete immunity is pretty unreasonable - but not the abiltiy to take a dozen shots instead of one, which is reason enough to switch weapons.

[NecronLord]

For the record, Kroot rifles were blackpowder before contact with the Tau. The Tau give them ammo that releases a plasma pulse, akin to their rifles. They haven't upgraded their weapons, preffering the Kroot to be dependant on the Tau for weapons.

Of course, these Kroot involved could well have had other weapons - unlike the Tau, Kroot travel the galaxy, and have even been known to buy weapons from Dark Eldar, and of course, the Imperium. They could simply have kitted themselves out with thousands of captured ork shooters.

Of course, the Kroot forces (numbering thousands) fought in jungle-warfare and it implies primarily HTH anyway.

[Flameblade]

What's really disturbing about Kroot vs Tyranid combat is the reason for the Kroot eating the enemy dead...

[Connor MacLeod]

You would know such things better than I, given that I have been more or less out of the loop on Games Workshop over the last few years. I went with the description given in the Inquisitor (the tabletop game) rulebook and assorted fluff, the most in-depth source on them in particular that I know reasonably well, which as I recall it tends to emphasise the fractious and inefficient nature of the Inquisition (what with there being a huge number of radically divergent sects that tend not to cooperate very well, and so on). My general impression was that they had little overall direction.

So? Palpy set the Empire up to also have groups of ideologically blinkered, mutually competitive factions (there's several intel arms as I recall - ISB, Imperial Intel, the military intelligence agencies (Army and Navy intel). Hell COMPNOR is basically just the Imperial version of the 40K Ministorum for all intents and purposes. The Empire just as fractious in most ways, if not moreso in some, than the Imperium is, not least because the Empire is designed not to functio nat all well without Palpy in charge, so lets not go creating strawmen okay?

The popular depiction of the Inquisitor that I have seen (Inquisitor, White Dwarf and most novels I have read) generally seems to suggest Inquisitorial agents with extraordinary powers working in fairly loose patterns, if not entirely without supervision, although some stuff might point towards more of a formal hierarchy. What does the later fluff say about the Inquisition as it stands? In broad, what kind of organisation do they have, and how functional is it?

Inquisitors work on their own and to their own ends, but they have superiors (Inquisitor Lords and higher) they are responsible to. Just like a number of individuals in the Empire (Vader, Tarkin, etc.) So what's your point?

[Connor MacLeod]

No limits nonsensical Borg-wanker-style "adaptation," that is. They adapted to pulse weapons, so the Tau started using kroot rifles because they were more effective--even though they both apparently use similar ammunition, if I've understood my Tau 'dex correctly. Obviously, the authour is talking out of his ass--which he probably wouldn't be able to differentiate from a hole in the ground, given that he apparently thinks that "refractive mucous membranes" are sufficient to protect against high-power lasers.

Don't be an idiot. Borg wankery means they can magically adapt to any weapon at will and rapidly without defining any real mechansim and without any tradeoffs (Kinetc, thermal, whatever). Learn to fucking read. The Tyranids "Adapt" by customizing their troops to specific capabilities, but it also (as WR mentions) carries some obvious trade offs and isn't "all around" protection since other weapons sitll worked. It's quite plausible to gain that sort of resistance by basically sticking a different kind of armor on them designed to handle a specific kind of weapon attack (eg energy weapons over projectile - or thermal vs mechanical damage resistance) and still having it vulnerable to other kinds of attack.
The example simply speaks more to the "over optimization" of tau combat doctrine (yet again) rather than any problems with the presentation of the Tyranids anyhow.

[Connor MacLeod]

Anyhow, the real question to address when you consider whethre or not the Tyranids are a possible threat to the GE is: How big a force are we talking, and "are there time limits on how the Tyranids act?" We tend to get impressed by the relative size and scope of Hive fleets (thousands or millions of vessels of differing sizes, billions of Tyranid warriors) but tend to ignore the fact that the Tyranid War Effort has, in practice, een conducted over a course of centuries. With every attack they have changed their tactics against the Imperium, and there really hasn't been a sign of them letting up. To the tyranids, losses of huge numbers of troops, failures of genestealer cults, or hive fleet losses seem immaterial, it just simply forces a change in tactics (and more often than not they just have more material to draw from anyhow.)

So before one can debate this one has to define how large a Tyranid force is sent against the Empire. A single Hive fleet or a handful probably owuldnt be a problem, but something much bigger (dozens of fleets?) could be a problem, especially if they take the stragetic "long term" approach like they usually do. I'd fully expect the tactics they apply against the Imperium to fail, but that hardly means the tyranids won't ADAPT their tactics once it becomes obvious that they'd fail. They've proven adaptable to enemy tactics or strategy before in too many different respects to think otherwise.

There's also the fact they've sucked dry many hundreds of worlds, including the oceans and atmospheres and such. That's quite a huge chunk of resources that we know of - easily equal (in mass at least) to many Death Stars or DS2s - and we dont know (yet) what they do with that stuff. If they do the same with the GE (attacking the Outer Rim, Wild space, or unknown regions for example) they could easily get a massive material advantage without the GE neccesarily noticing - they are hardly omniscient of events in the whole galaxy.

[Srelex]

Anyhow, the real question to address when you consider whethre or not the Tyranids are a possible threat to the GE is: How big a force are we talking, and "are there time limits on how the Tyranids act?" We tend to get impressed by the relative size and scope of Hive fleets (thousands or millions of vessels of differing sizes, billions of Tyranid warriors) but tend to ignore the fact that the Tyranid War Effort has, in practice, een conducted over a course of centuries. With every attack they have changed their tactics against the Imperium, and there really hasn't been a sign of them letting up. To the tyranids, losses of huge numbers of troops, failures of genestealer cults, or hive fleet losses seem immaterial, it just simply forces a change in tactics (and more often than not they just have more material to draw from anyhow.)

So before one can debate this one has to define how large a Tyranid force is sent against the Empire. A single Hive fleet or a handful probably owuldnt be a problem, but something much bigger (dozens of fleets?) could be a problem, especially if they take the stragetic "long term" approach like they usually do. I'd fully expect the tactics they apply against the Imperium to fail, but that hardly means the tyranids won't ADAPT their tactics once it becomes obvious that they'd fail. They've proven adaptable to enemy tactics or strategy before in too many different respects to think otherwise.

There's also the fact they've sucked dry many hundreds of worlds, including the oceans and atmospheres and such. That's quite a huge chunk of resources that we know of - easily equal (in mass at least) to many Death Stars or DS2s - and we dont know (yet) what they do with that stuff. If they do the same with the GE (attacking the Outer Rim, Wild space, or unknown regions for example) they could easily get a massive material advantage without the GE neccesarily noticing - they are hardly omniscient of events in the whole galaxy.

As I mentioned in the OP, it's basically the same Tyranid forces attacking the 40k galaxy now attacking the SW galaxy at the same numbers and rate. Simply take one of the official maps indicating the hive fleet routes and replace the galaxy, if you know what I mean. Anyway, bear in mind that SW does, unlike the Imperium, have the advantage of superior speed and communications--if they attack in the Outer Rim, warnings could easily be put onto the Holonet or ships bearing warnings could speed away to call for help. The Unknown Regions are a different story, but they seem to be quite sparse from what I've gathered.

[Ryan Thunder]

No, you didn't.

Looking at it again, there's no evidence that the Kroot weapons were any more effective than the Tau's.

Having just read it, it's that they created 'nids with thicker armour capable of resisting the Tau's weapons, and the Tau were forced to use prototypes and modifications to be as effective against them.

In response to the powerful pulse rifles of the Tau Firewarriors[sic], carapace was restructured, bone recombined and tissue reknitted, dramatically increasing the Tyranids' resistance to Tau ordinance. In reply, the Tau reconfigured their weapon load-outs, retro-fitting pulse rifles to use new prototypes or older ammunition, ballistics which the Tyranids had not before encountered and hence had not yet adapted to. However, each time a weakness was found, the Tyranid biomatrix shifted once more.

Bolding mine. It appears that phaserspulse rifles using different frequenciesammunition were successful at penetrating the Tyranids' shieldsarmour until they adapted to those as well.

Don't be an idiot. Borg wankery means they can magically adapt to any weapon at will and rapidly without defining any real mechansim and without any tradeoffs (Kinetc, thermal, whatever).

My mistake. However, my response to NecronLord should illustrate what I meant by that.

It's quite plausible to gain that sort of resistance by basically sticking a different kind of armor on them designed to handle a specific kind of weapon attack (eg energy weapons over projectile - or thermal vs mechanical damage resistance) and still having it vulnerable to other kinds of attack.

Except that unless I'm mistaken, your own analysis concluded that pulse weapons cause damage by a variety of means, so specializing against "energy" at the expense of kinetic damage resistance shouldn't really help the 'nids that much.

The example simply speaks more to the "over optimization" of tau combat doctrine (yet again) rather than any problems with the presentation of the Tyranids anyhow.

Yeah, sure. We'll just pretend there's nothing wrong with epic-scale biowankery because the Tau suck and don't belong in 40K.

[NecronLord]

Just for the record, these apply to the Inquisition too. While I don't dispute that the Inquisitorious and similar groups would do a better job, the Inquisition is far more than ambulatory witchfinder generals; I reccommend the Dark Heresy roleplaying game and the novels that spin off from it, for an idea of how they work; there are ambulatory Inquisitors, but they're more of the nature of caseworkers, following leads, or patrol-men, not simple wanderers. And there are (as in the sample-sector detailed in DH) sectors with substantial ongoing inquisitorial prescense for whatever reason. It's a great disservice to suggest they're disorganised - and the idea that they lack 'fact sifting and cross-referencing archives' is... the only way to describe it that springs to mind is super-wrong.

You would know such things better than I, given that I have been more or less out of the loop on Games Workshop over the last few years. I went with the description given in the Inquisitor (the tabletop game) rulebook and assorted fluff, the most in-depth source on them in particular that I know reasonably well, which as I recall it tends to emphasise the fractious and inefficient nature of the Inquisition (what with there being a huge number of radically divergent sects that tend not to cooperate very well, and so on). My general impression was that they had little overall direction.

The popular depiction of the Inquisitor that I have seen (Inquisitor, White Dwarf and most novels I have read) generally seems to suggest Inquisitorial agents with extraordinary powers working in fairly loose patterns, if not entirely without supervision, although some stuff might point towards more of a formal hierarchy. What does the later fluff say about the Inquisition as it stands? In broad, what kind of organisation do they have, and how functional is it?

I'm not sure what novels you've read? As for Inquisitor the game, it's got stuff about their higher organisation in there, especially the Thorian sourcebook, which formalised the notion of conclaves, etc. But things like Lord Inquisitors, conclaves, heirarchy, support groups, stormtroopers, the Inquisition's various chambers millitant, archives, etc, are there.

There is no formal heirarchy, in theory, in practice, there is.

They're organised in various ways, into the various ordos (greater and minor) and conclaves (shared interest groups) as well as by their fundamental beliefs (thorian etc) there are also large groups whose loyalty is to the Inquisition itself, and are functionally neutral or puritanical, such as the Grey Knights, Stormtroopers, the Inquisition's private arbites (I forget their name) and so on.

As for how effective: well, they tend to win, no?