Successful Chinese Ballistic Missile Test

[Lusankya]

Though if you're right, one of those (having democratic systems in place) isn't an advantage for that sort of country, yes?

Yeah. That "advantage" is more along the lines of promoting stability within a democratic government: I think that a country with established democratic systems is more likely to succeed as a democracy than a new democracy without established democratic systems.*

So, one could argue that the Dynasty policy was isolationist, but the culture wasn't.

This, I think, is quite likely. From what I understand, isolationist measures have been usually politically motivated - not worth the cost, or attempting to limit disruptive new ideas from other countries. I don't recall any evidence that said practices ever impacted Han culture, except insofar as it meant they weren't exposed to new ideas. The fact that the government actually has to have policies in place to limit foreign interaction is actually an indication that it's not the people themselves who are xenophobic.

The Qing dynasty policy was very isolationist, but then again, the Qing weren't Han, so using Qing policies as evidence of Han isolationism and xenophobia is a bit like using apartheid as an example of black South African racism.


*This actually reminds me of something that Stas possibly brought up in the past - that countries are usually less stable after changing from an autocracy to a democracy or vice versa than they are if they continue with the previous form of government. Am I remembering this correctly, and if it was Stas, can you still find your data? It does seem to be a fairly convincing argument against carelessly spreading democracy around.

[mr friendly guy]

We're talking about centuries (up until the Europeans/English smashed the Chinese and left them on the "defensive" in terms of expansion in the late 18th-19th centuries). Over that length of time, we're talking cultural values (The Barbarians weren't exactly latter day Mongols in terms of hemming them in ).

The thing is, the Chinese still had problems with Mongol raids including some disastrous military adventurism by the Ming. This required finances, which they couldn't spend on treasure ships. Not to mention that it took more resources than they had to invade Mongol territory, although they could play things defensively. Fortunately for the Ming the Mongols weren't united so they managed to hold them off.

However they did not forsee a new Asiatic power rising in their backyard. A Jurchen man by the name of Nu'archi will unite the Jurchen tribes, pacify the mongols and eventually attack China while the Ming were putting down a peasant rebellion which ultimately succeeded. While Nu'archi was ultimately killed assaulting Chinese walls his son Huang Taji will continue to soldier on. By now the Jurchens will rename themselves Manchu and their new Qing dynasty will ultimately take over China from the Han people. Under the Manchus China will incorporate Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia (includes modern Inner Mongolia province in China and the modern Republic of Mongolia's terrirotry), Taiwan as well as the Manchu's ancestral lands into the state of Qing. That was at their height. Unfortunately the Manchu's adopted isolationist policies for various reasons and China paid the price when Europeans and Japan came a calling.

[K. A. Pital]

Blah. I had so many arguments about transitions from autocracy to democracy and the like here that I can't remember that particular one, sorry.

The graphs I posted on the previous page though do show that PainRack's "India = China, but with democracy" argument doesn't have much to base on. India's progress from 1978 to 2000 hasn't been all that stellar in health, poverty, nutrition and education indicators, and compared to China's last 50 years they've been doing a fairly lousy job, despite both nations starting with equal numbers of poor in the late 1970s, and despite India actually exceeding China's life expectancy at first.




Something more to ponder:



Oh, and to the question of transition from autocracy to democracy:

[stormthebeaches]

You do perhaps remember the Polish Crisis (as it was dubbed in the West) of 1980-1981? The regime felt sufficiently threatened by internal unrest that it declared martial law. No plans were put in motion for intervention in case the regime collapsed, despite Jaruzelski making some inquiries about the possibility of receiving Soviet military support.

I find it difficult to believe that there were not plans developed for military intervention. Every competent military will have plans for just about anything. The US military has even go as far as to develop a zombie contingency plan! The Soviets might not have drawn up new plans but they probably had plans that were several decades old in case the regime collapsed. The reason the Soviets didn't intervene is because they figured that the Polish regime was capable of putting down the dissent by itself.

France is not Panama or Chile: you can't organize a covert operation for regime change (and have it stay covert) or sabotage a nuclear program in a nation of 50 million people with a stable government.

France doesn't have the kind of internal security that other dictatorships had (no secret police for a start). It wouldn't be particularly hard to deploy secret service agents for some kind of assasination or election rigging operation. France was surrounded by NATO members.

Well, I'm far from suggesting that, but you have to admit the US was a major arms supplier for the Shah.

Yes, I will admit that.

[K. A. Pital]

A foreign service rigging elections in France? That's preposterous. You'd have them torn apart by the police in moments. How woudl they do about infiltrating a body like the Central Electoral Commitee, which usually consists of very high officials in a nation?

[stormthebeaches]

I was thinking along the lines of what the CIA did in Italy. Not outright rig the election but spend huge amounts of money on propaganda for right wing groups, propaganda attacks their opponents and maybe give lots of money to right wing political parties in France that oppose France leaving NATO. I wasn't thinking about ballot stuffing or something crude like that.

My knowledge of the French political climate during that time period is quite weak. If there were no mainstream parties that wanted France to be part of NATO then I will conceed.

[mrbubbles]

What a great thread. Am I too late?





And, here's a list on US foreign interventions.

Argentina - 1890 - Troops sent to Buenos Aires to protect business interests.

Chile - 1891 - Marines sent to Chile and clashed with nationalist rebels.

Haiti - 1891 - American troops suppress a revolt by Black workers on United States-claimed Navassa Island.

Hawaii - 1893 - Navy sent to Hawaii to overthrow the independent kingdom - Hawaii annexed by the United States.

Nicaragua - 1894 - Troops occupied Bluefields, a city on the Caribbean Sea, for a month.

China - 1894-95 - Navy, Army, and Marines landed during the Sino-Japanese War.

Korea - 1894-96 - Troops kept in Seoul during the war.

Panama - 1895 - Army, Navy, and Marines landed in the port city of Corinto.

China - 1894-1900 - Troops occupied China during the Boxer Rebellion.

Philippines - 1898-1910 - Navy and Army troops landed after the Philippines fell during the Spanish-American War; 600,000 Filipinos were killed.

Cuba - 1898-1902 - Troops seized Cuba in the Spanish-American War; the United States still maintains troops at Guantanamo Bay today.

Puerto Rico - 1898 - present - Troops seized Puerto Rico in the Spanish-American War and still occupy Puerto Rico today.

Nicaragua - 1898 - Marines landed at the port of San Juan del Sur.

Samoa - 1899 - Troops landed as a result over the battle for succession to the throne.

Panama - 1901-14 - Navy supported the revolution when Panama claimed independence from Colombia. American troops have occupied the Canal Zone since 1901 when construction for the canal began.

Honduras - 1903 - Marines landed to intervene during a revolution.

Dominican Rep 1903-04 - Troops landed to protect American interests during a revolution.

Korea - 1904-05 - Marines landed during the Russo-Japanese War.

Cuba - 1906-09 - Troops landed during an election.

Nicaragua - 1907 - Troops landed and a protectorate was set up.

Honduras - 1907 - Marines landed during Honduras’ war with Nicaragua.

Panama - 1908 - Marines sent in during Panama’s election.

Nicaragua - 1910 - Marines landed for a second time in Bluefields and Corinto.

Honduras - 1911 - Troops sent in to protect American interests during Honduras’ civil war.

China - 1911-41 - Navy and troops sent to China during continuous flare-ups.

Cuba - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests in Havana.

Panama - 1912 - Marines landed during Panama’s election.

Honduras - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests.

Nicaragua - 1912-33 - Troops occupied Nicaragua and fought guerrillas during its 20-year civil war.

Mexico - 1913 - Navy evacuated Americans during revolution.

Dominican Rep 1914 - Navy fought with rebels over Santo Domingo.

Mexico - 1914-18 - Navy and troops sent in to intervene against nationalists.

Haiti - 1914-34 - Troops occupied Haiti after a revolution and occupied Haiti for 19 years.

Dominican Rep 1916-24 - Marines occupied the Dominican Republic for eight years.

Cuba - 1917-33 - Troops landed and occupied Cuba for 16 years; Cuba became an economic protectorate.

World War I - 1917-18 - Navy and Army sent to Europe to fight the Axis powers.

Russia - 1918-22 - Navy and troops sent to eastern Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution; Army made five landings.

Honduras - 1919 - Marines sent during Honduras’ national elections.

Guatemala - 1920 - Troops occupied Guatemala for two weeks during a union strike.

Turkey - 1922 - Troops fought nationalists in Smyrna.

China - 1922-27 - Navy and Army troops deployed during a nationalist revolt.

Honduras - 1924-25 - Troops landed twice during a national election.

Panama - 1925 - Troops sent in to put down a general strike.

China - 1927-34 - Marines sent in and stationed for seven years throughout China.

El Salvador - 1932 - Naval warships deployed during the FMLN revolt under Marti.

World War II - 1941-45 - Military fought the Axis powers: Japan, Germany, and Italy.

Yugoslavia - 1946 - Navy deployed off the coast of Yugoslavia in response to the downing of an American plane.

Uruguay - 1947 - Bombers deployed as a show of military force.

Greece - 1947-49 - United States operations insured a victory for the far right in national “elections.”

Germany - 1948 - Military deployed in response to the Berlin blockade; the Berlin airlift lasts 444 days.

Philippines - 1948-54 - The CIA directed a civil war against the Filipino Huk revolt.

Puerto Rico - 1950 - Military helped crush an independence rebellion in Ponce.

Korean War - 1951-53 - Military sent in during the war.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

Vietnam - 1954 - The United States offered weapons to the French in the battle against Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas in power.

Egypt - 1956 - Marines deployed to evacuate foreigners after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal.

Lebanon - 1958 - Navy supported an Army occupation of Lebanon during its civil war.

Panama - 1958 - Troops landed after Panamanians demonstrations threatened the Canal Zone.

Vietnam - 1950s-75 - Vietnam War.

Cuba - 1961 - The CIA-directed Bay of Pigs invasions failed to overthrow the Castro government.

Cuba - 1962 - The Navy quarantines Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Laos - 1962 - Military occupied Laos during its civil war against the Pathet Lao guerrillas.

Panama - 1964 - Troops sent in and Panamanians shot while protesting the United States presence in the Canal Zone.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military coup.

Dominican Rep- 1965-66 - Troops deployed during a national election.

Guatemala - 1966-67 - Green Berets sent in.

Cambodia - 1969-75 - Military sent in after the Vietnam War expanded into Cambodia.

Oman - 1970 - Marines landed to direct a possible invasion into Iran.

Laos - 1971-75 - Americans carpet-bomb the countryside during Laos’ civil war.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing President Allende who had been popularly elected. The CIA helped to establish a military regime under General Pinochet.

Cambodia - 1975 - Twenty-eight Americans killed in an effort to retrieve the crew of the Mayaquez, which had been seized.

Angola - 1976-92 - The CIA backed South African rebels fighting against Marxist Angola.

Iran - 1980 - Americans aborted a rescue attempt to liberate 52 hostages seized in the Teheran embassy.

Libya - 1981 - American fighters shoot down two Libyan fighters.

El Salvador - 1981-92 - The CIA, troops, and advisers aid in El Salvador’s war against the FMLN.

Nicaragua - 1981-90 - The CIA and NSC directed the Contra War against the Sandinistas.

Lebanon - 1982-84 - Marines occupied Beirut during Lebanon’s civil war; 241 were killed in the American barracks and Reagan “redeployed” the troops to the Mediterranean.

Honduras - 1983-89 - Troops sent in to build bases near the Honduran border.

Grenada - 1983-84 - American invasion overthrew the Maurice Bishop government.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian planes over the Persian Gulf.

Libya - 1986 - American fighters hit targets in and around the capital city of Tripoli.

Bolivia - 1986 - The Army assisted government troops on raids of cocaine areas.

Iran - 1987-88 - The United States intervened on the side of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

Libya - 1989 - Navy shot down two more Libyan jets.

Virgin Islands - 1989 - Troops landed during unrest among Virgin Island peoples.

Philippines - 1989 - Air Force provided air cover for government during coup.

Panama - 1989-90 - 27,000 Americans landed in overthrow of President Noriega; over 2,000 Panama civilians were killed.

Liberia - 1990 - Troops entered Liberia to evacuate foreigners during civil war.

Saudi Arabia - 1990-91 - American troops sent to Saudi Arabia, which was a staging area in the war against Iraq.

Kuwait - 1991 - Troops sent into Kuwait to turn back Saddam Hussein.

Somalia - 1992-94 - Troops occupied Somalia during civil war.

Bosnia - 1993-95 - Air Force jets bombed “no-fly zone” during civil war in Yugoslavia.

Haiti - 1994-96 - American troops and Navy provided a blockade against Haiti’s military government. The CIA restored Aristide to power.

Zaire - 1996-97 - Marines sent into Rwanda Hutus’ refugee camps in the area where the Congo revolution began.

Albania - 1997 - Troops deployed during evacuation of foreigners.

Sudan - 1998 - American missiles destroyed a pharmaceutical complex where alleged nerve gas components were manufactured.

Afghanistan - 1998 - Missiles launched towards alleged Afghan terrorist training camps.

Yugoslavia - 1999 - Bombings and missile attacks Carried out by the United States in conjunction with NATO in the 11 week war against Milosevic.

Iraq - 1998-2001 - Missiles launched into Baghdad and other large Iraq cities for four days. American jets enforced “no-fly zone” and continued to hit Iraqi targets since December 1998.