The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Ilya Muromets]

Where and how the hell do the angels get a rock that big, carry it up, and throw it down a portal?

Thinking of something along the lines of one of these naturally occurring formations, with the small connecting part broken, pushed into a large enough portal. I mean, if some attack is gonna qualify as a Bowl of Wrath, they'd have to be big enough to do some real nasty damage.

EDIT: They don't even need to push it. have the portal ready below, weaken the connecting part on one side enough, they gravity'll make it fall into said portal for 'em.

[Baughn]

Do portals have to open to the same gravitational level on both sides?

I should hope not; if so, it's an amazing coincidence that the gravity at hell's surface is just exactly the same as on earth. Actually, as I remember the sky-volcano, that's definitely not the case.

But if they don't, then the angels could open something from their ground-level to eight hundred meters above one of our cities. The main problem would be getting there; it's not going to be any easier than for Belial.

[Shroom Man 777]

Jesus. So they have to go around looking for dumb limp-dicked phallic rock formations all over Heaven?

Well, actually, they don't. They can just have human slaves push bigass rocks into a portal.

Or they can find those bigass rocks in Hell. Sure, why not.

[Ilya Muromets]

Well you did ask how a huge-ass rock could be brought down quickly, and I provided a possibility. Way I see it, any rock small enough to be pushed by slaves will probably not be that big or impressive enough to be a Bowl of Wrath, especially considering the other weather based attacks have more impact. It'd need to be a huge rock (or perhaps a huge number of small rocks) to make some sort of point.

Of course, I may be completely misinterpreting the thing and Mikey or that other faction/factions will come up with something that kinda sorta fits the prophecy enough to make Yahoo happy, making this speculation moot.

[Baughn]

Start a landslide above a portal?

That could definitely be impressive enough, depending on the landslide.

[JN1]

The weather attacks are getting really serious now, especially since they are damaging food production.

*

Btw the kids on that site have now resorted to ad hominem attacks to our posts.

[Peptuck]

The hell with pushing it using human slaves. Just get one of those kaiju Beasts to haul it around.

[JBG]

Heaven seems to be using/visiting hell quite a lot. Masses of mobile phone towers, for instance, may be impracticable in the short term. What about standing patrols of EW aircraft, suitably modified? Not just EA-3Bs or growlers but Rivet Joint etc aircraft.

The weather attacks are getting really serious now, especially since they are damaging food production.

*

Btw the kids on that site have now resorted to ad hominem attacks to our posts.

They're slagging off at Monty

The inhumanity of it all!

[The Big I]

Nice update Stu, can I ask what were the "Black Lizards" that the Sampsons were talking about??

[Simon_Jester]

I think it's just a name for the horrible dust storms they experienced during the Dust Bowl era in the early '30s.

[Stuart]

Nice update Stu, can I ask what were the "Black Lizards" that the Sampsons were talking about??

It was a 1930s name for the dust storms that created and then afflicted the dustbowl for a decade. Some people say it's because the storms on the horizon looked like a lizard that crawled over the ground. Others claim it was a corruption of 'Black Blizzard'. If you want a harrowing read, the dustbowl is about as bad as it can get. There were worse disasters and ones that cost more lives but for sheer human misery that went on for a decade, the dustbowl must have it.

[Gil Hamilton]

Do portals have to open to the same gravitational level on both sides?

I should hope not; if so, it's an amazing coincidence that the gravity at hell's surface is just exactly the same as on earth. Actually, as I remember the sky-volcano, that's definitely not the case.

But if they don't, then the angels could open something from their ground-level to eight hundred meters above one of our cities. The main problem would be getting there; it's not going to be any easier than for Belial.

Gravitational potential energy is conservative; only the end points matter. We know that portals don't necessarily violate this, as we already had a military plane destroyed by a slight change in potential energy when transiting a portal.

Presumably, when you attempt to lift a rock via a portal to a high altitude, you have to do work to push it through, equal to the amount of work necessarily to lift the rock up there manually. Merely pushing it may not do it; it might just bounce off the interface.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the idea of starting avalanches at high altitude is a good one then.

On the other hand, it does seem a little surprising and convenient that Heaven and Hell should just happen to have sea level gravitational potential energy levels that are the same as that of Earth. Of course, a version of the anthropic principle might be applied: if they weren't equipotential with us, we couldn't reach them and vice versa- they could only generate portals somewhere in the ionosphere, or thousands of miles underground, or something.

As for getting there: Michael, at least, has a network, as demonstrated by his own ability to portal in and out of various locations seemingly at will. Remember the agent of his that DIMON caught, the one whose trial got screwed up because they had Luga interrogate her? Like that one.

[declan]

Do portals have to open to the same gravitational level on both sides?

I should hope not; if so, it's an amazing coincidence that the gravity at hell's surface is just exactly the same as on earth. Actually, as I remember the sky-volcano, that's definitely not the case.

But if they don't, then the angels could open something from their ground-level to eight hundred meters above one of our cities. The main problem would be getting there; it's not going to be any easier than for Belial.

Gravitational potential energy is conservative; only the end points matter. We know that portals don't necessarily violate this, as we already had a military plane destroyed by a slight change in potential energy when transiting a portal.

Presumably, when you attempt to lift a rock via a portal to a high altitude, you have to do work to push it through, equal to the amount of work necessarily to lift the rock up there manually. Merely pushing it may not do it; it might just bounce off the interface.

Would it be possible to open up a large hellgate or a series of hellgates to redirect the dust storms. Im thinking of the one that the navy uses at the triangle area for size purposes, using it or them as a barrier to protect the east coast.

Declan

[GrayAnderson]

One thing I noticed; Ted Kennedy died and was no longer legally a senator. Any chance that will change anytime soon? Or that deceased representatives can serve out their term via teleconferencing.

I can't see that changing. Once a person is dead (or, rather, on his "second life") they really don't have to interface much with the first-lifers. It's difficult to know that a senator would take the concerns of his constituents quite as seriously if they no longer even share the same plane of existence. Death seems a reasonable place to end a person's employment.

There's precedent for pulling shenanigans like that IRL. No, not literally with dead people, but the Wilson government in the UK was literally rolling MPs in on hospital beds for close votes at one point. If a major piece of legislation came down to it, there is no doubt in my mind that a party might be willing to pull a deceased MP, Congressman, or Senator out of Hell, march them through the proverbial division lobby, and then send them right back. If they were careful, it'd probably take until the vote was announced online with the ayes and nays listed for anyone watching at home to realize what had happened, and in a crunch I think they'd risk the inevitable court challenge (which would legally come down to Congress to decide).

My guess is that in a collegial environment, the deceased member would be allotted a pair pending the special election in order to duck any trouble. Absent that, there is little doubt in my mind that Kennedy and the DNC would have come to an arrangement at least pending the special election...but I can also see Kennedy not contesting the special election as a "we can't lose" race (it was MA, and trying to sue at the back end of the process would probably get you nowhere on the grounds that the horse had left the barn) to avoid controversy. Where you'd have gotten trouble is if the deceased Senator had been in a toss-up or unfavorable seat. I think it's fair to say that someone is going to try this sooner or later (if just to fill out a term, particularly if the seat is in a disaster-affected area).

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Moving on, it's good to see that atmospheric exchanges can take place (or at least the question of whether or not they can happen under some circumstances is answered); this does answer one question from my mind, though does such an exchange have to have a concerted effort to happen, or is there a "natural" exchange at the main open portals?

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P.S. Had forgotten about Uriel being the attack on LA. So many suburbs were mentioned that I think I just managed to misplace which metro area the attack was in. Yay for being absent-minded.

[Buritot]

Do portals have to open to the same gravitational level on both sides?

I should hope not; if so, it's an amazing coincidence that the gravity at hell's surface is just exactly the same as on earth. Actually, as I remember the sky-volcano, that's definitely not the case.

But if they don't, then the angels could open something from their ground-level to eight hundred meters above one of our cities. The main problem would be getting there; it's not going to be any easier than for Belial.

Gravitational potential energy is conservative; only the end points matter. We know that portals don't necessarily violate this, as we already had a military plane destroyed by a slight change in potential energy when transiting a portal.

Presumably, when you attempt to lift a rock via a portal to a high altitude, you have to do work to push it through, equal to the amount of work necessarily to lift the rock up there manually. Merely pushing it may not do it; it might just bounce off the interface.

Ah, I was just about to comment on that when I read your post.
It would work if both portals were situated at a higher altitude, i.e. a Hell mountain with a landslide on one side and the Earth portal at a corresponding altitude. On the same note, I suppose the surrounding pressure provided the potential energy to overcome altitude differences with the sky volcanoes. Albeit craters do tend to stick out of the ground a bit, so it may be moot.

[Baughn]

You'd have to provide the energy to overcome the gravitational potential, but this might not be as big an issue as you think.

Consider this: Is there any reason to think that, if you've gotten a rock part-way through the portal and then let go, it'll pop back out?

If not, then you could simply push them through, slowly. Though I'll admit it might look a bit underwhelming.

[Buritot]

Consider this: Is there any reason to think that, if you've gotten a rock part-way through the portal and then let go, it'll pop back out?

If not, then you could simply push them through, slowly. Though I'll admit it might look a bit underwhelming.

I think in the Armageddon threads something like this was theorized: You built a hydraulic lift on Hell, open a portal from there to geostationary orbit around Earth, and slowly lift your cargo through the portal until it is in space. Considering the high potential difference there probably wouldn't be an atmospheric draft, either.

You're raising another point, though. I assume the energy difference has to be overcome molecule by molecule or another arbitrary size unit. However, what if we're dealing with stress on the cargo? We've got one part of say a satellite on Hell, the other in orbit. Would the energy gradient between these tear the satellite in two?
Also, to stay in orbit the cargo needs a certain speed (geostationary: 3075 m/s) to which it would need to accelerate. Otherwise we'd give good old Earth its first orbital bombardment.

[JN1]

The weather attacks are getting really serious now, especially since they are damaging food production.

*

Btw the kids on that site have now resorted to ad hominem attacks to our posts.

They're slagging off at Monty

The inhumanity of it all!

I know, the rotten swine! He's consulting his lawyers at the moment as I'm sure you can guess he's very sensitive about the subject of getting laid.

[Baughn]

You could easily have a fundamental particle part-way through; they're not points. It depends on the exact microphysics involved, but the resolution is likely about planck scale, which is effectively infinite for these purposes.

If portals block gravitation, then I'd expect these effects:

- Anything going from high to low potential (orbit to ground) would acquire a sudden speed boost.
- In either direction, moving particles that are straddling the portal would feel a force resisting/pushing them, proportional to their speed, inversely proportional to their size and proportional to their mass.
- Any system that depends on moving parts, like people, should under no circumstances attempt to enter a high potential difference portal. Anything that doesn't should be fine, if pushed slowly enough. However, keep in mind that the forces will be felt by individual particles, which could dramatically mess up engineering that expects internal bits to only feel forces transmitted from the outside.

Something similar should be the case for the other fundamental force(s). However, it depends on whether the force is actually blocked or not; if it isn't, then the field would simply extend through the portal and provide a much gentler ride instead.

Now, evidence is that low-frequency EM is not blocked (or molecules would fall apart); the strong force is not blocked at all (proton-internal waves vary dramatically in frequency all the time, but its not being blocked may be a consequence of its extremely small range; the portal probably isn't a 2D wall); I never quite understood the weak force; and gravity is apparently blocked at low frequencies, though I'm not really sure. We can't test high-frequency gravity yet.

Clear? As mud?

[Buritot]

(...)
Clear? As mud?

Actually, yes. I didn't put it in these advanced physical concepts since I doubt I could properly convey the meaning I'd intend do, but it is clear. Nice analysis of the physics, by the way. A little addendum, high frequency EM isn't blocked either, the Predator drone was controlled via radio. The communication between planes is via optical fibres, if I remember correctly.

Something similar should be the case for the other fundamental force(s). However, it depends on whether the force is actually blocked or not; if it isn't, then the field would simply extend through the portal and provide a much gentler ride instead.

Could you expand on that? As far as I know there are only four fundamental forces, or which are you referring to?

[Baughn]

It depends on how you count.

Check a mid-level textbook, and you indeed find four forces: Gravity, electromagnetics, and the weak and strong nuclear forces (which act very differently!).

However, go back a century and you'd find three: Electricity, magnetics and gravity; the nuclear forces weren't known yet. We figured out that electricity and magnetics are the same thing, yes, but we've later figured out that electromagnetics and the weak force are also the same thing, and probably the same thing as the strong force. Even so, they're sufficiently separate in practice that they can usefully be handled separately.

So, four, but you could reasonably say "two, and expecting to end with one".


On a sidenote, electrons aren't massless. Which leads to some fun consequences; I haven't done the math to figure out how much it'd be, and I have no idea what effect (if any) it'd have on objects straddling a portal, but atoms straddling a portal with a gravitational potential difference should be slightly (?) flattened in the axis perpendicular to the portal. There is a very good chance that this has no actual effect whatsoever at a higher level.

[Simon_Jester]

Now, evidence is that low-frequency EM is not blocked (or molecules would fall apart)

Radio seems to be all right too; the Predator drone, remember?

The real conundrum is the fiber-optic cables laid through the portal. That shouldn't be possible; if light won't pass through the portal in the open air it shouldn't pass through when it's bouncing down a glass pipe, either. Trouble is, the portals are black; nontransparent in the visible range.

[Buritot]

The real conundrum is the fiber-optic cables laid through the portal. That shouldn't be possible; if light won't pass through the portal in the open air it shouldn't pass through when it's bouncing down a glass pipe, either. Trouble is, the portals are black; nontransparent in the visible range.

That has already been addressed. It is right there is no transparency for the human eye, but Stuard (?) gave the following simile: You've got a sheet of paper - you can't look through it. You can however shine a flash light at it and see a brighter circle on the other side.
Voila, information transition. I think the sciency explanation was normal light doesn't have the energy required to overcome the energy barrier unscathed (its wavelength falls below the visible spectrum - hence the blackness), but focused light (lasers, high powered fibre optics) can cross the barrier with supposedly less frequency dampening.

[Highlord Laan]

The real conundrum is the fiber-optic cables laid through the portal. That shouldn't be possible; if light won't pass through the portal in the open air it shouldn't pass through when it's bouncing down a glass pipe, either. Trouble is, the portals are black; nontransparent in the visible range.

That has already been addressed. It is right there is no transparency for the human eye, but Stuard (?) gave the following simile: You've got a sheet of paper - you can't look through it. You can however shine a flash light at it and see a brighter circle on the other side.
Voila, information transition. I think the sciency explanation was normal light doesn't have the energy required to overcome the energy barrier unscathed (its wavelength falls below the visible spectrum - hence the blackness), but focused light (lasers, high powered fibre optics) can cross the barrier with supposedly less frequency dampening.

Couldn't that also mean that the portal itself could be used as a sort of focusing medium, if one found the proper resonance/frequency?

My terms are probably wildly off. I'm a science novice.