Christians and their need to know if something is "bad"

[Superman]

So today I receive a Google alert for "Howard Stern," and I noticed that one is from a Christian message board. It reads as follows:

Here is my question. I am a chrisitian and overal what I would call a good person. I try to live my life the best I can. Pray daily, go to church read scripture...etc.

However I am the type of person who isn't easily influenced therefor I have been capable of being around situations in the past that I woudn't approve of or condone...but at the same time I doesn't change me or persuade me. In other words I dont' buckle to peer pressure.

That being said I like to listen to talk radio a lot and I have many favorite shows but one I enjoy is the Howard Stern Show. Now I don't agree with all of his views at all nor do I condone a lot of his behavior and guests, however I do find the show humorous and intrigueing. As a god fearing Chrisitian is it ok to listen to his show...and get humour from it even though you do not condone certain areas of the show? I guess my hangup is I don't like some of the things he condones and as a christian it goes against some of our beliefs, however I enjoy the show. Is it ok to listen to this?

I'm sure everyone here can guess as to everyone people replied. Later, the poster mentioned having kids, having a job for a number of years, etc., so it seems that person is a grown adult. I guess what strikes me most about the question is how downright childish it is. An adult enjoys listening to Stern, but is insure if that's "ok," so has to ask for permission to do it? In other words, does it break the "rules?" I would think listening to vulgarity on the radio is a pretty inconsequential issue; it's not like the poster is pondering the morality of, say, pulling the plug on a dying spouse here.

Does the notion of being a grown up and realizing you can make your own choices just not occur to folks like this? Isn't that what being an adult is all about? It's like when I was a kid, I wanted to watch R rated movies. My mom would tell me that I have to wait to become an adult, and until then, they were off limits. With fundies it seems that you never actually get to become the adult.

Personally, I think this in itself is one reason I could never be a Christian. I find the idea of needing to know whether certain things are "permissible" or not to be downright offensive. Maybe I'm more rebellious than most. I dunno. Does anyone else feel like this? For the Christians around here, is this an issue for you?

[Zixinus]

I, still not a fully-hatched adult, think that one of the second most frightening things about becoming an adult is that I will have to make my own mistakes. The idea that no one makes mistakes, even ones that will effect the rest of their lives, is of course non-sense, but one that is still most attractive. So it should come to no surprise that some people will cling to the ideas and stunted philosophies that given them comfort when they are in the world of adults.

Because if you think about it, what other thing does an adult want than to be a carefree child again?

[Mayabird]

Because if you think about it, what other thing does an adult want than to be a carefree child again?

What the hell is this shit? Lots of kids (myself included) as kids want nothing more than to be adults because being a kid sucks. I hated being a child and I have a lot more fun now than I ever did before age 18 and I'm less stressed out (and people who know about me - yes, that's how miserable I was growing up). I want sex, knowledge that I'm contributing to society, and the firey destruction of my hometown while I sit back and laugh and pet a kitty, not necessarily in that order, and those are adult things. I don't want to go back to being the dorky kid that always got picked on by everybody because I was small, literate, and not white enough for them.

Carefree child? All the other kids are out to get you and you're stuck in enforced contact with all of them, including the one that you always suspected smeared feces on himself intentionally and that teacher's pet bitch who pulls everybody's hair and scratches them with her nails when the teacher's not looking and gets everyone else in trouble if they complain. Every day another day of "what kind of stupid fucking bullshit will I have to endure today" but without having a grasp of the cussing to properly express it. Sure, the adults are still fucking stupid and I wonder how they survived to their current age, but I'm not forced to deal with them every day in close quarters. A lot of those really loathsome kids are in prison now, too.

[Eleas]

Remember how much shit Freud got for implying children could be less than perfectly angelic creatures? I do; I remember that every time when I hear people trivialising schoolyard bullying, talking about broken bones or sexual abuse as if it was some kind of accident, or dismiss systematic sadism on the grounds of "well, they're just that age."

Kids are bastards. About the only thing you can say for the worst among them is that they might be amenable to change, if the effort is made and made in the correct way. Yes, their parents are often to blame; that doesn't mean a child is without a will of its own.

I know I was carefree sometimes as a kid. I know that because of how many times I was fucking miserable.

[Zixinus]

What the hell is this shit? Lots of kids (myself included) as kids want nothing more than to be adults because being a kid sucks.

Your mileage will vary obviously. Not everyone had a happy childhood. Not everyone had a terrible one too.
Also, memory colours other things differently than they were too.

And note that I am someone that prefers not to remember a good deal of his childhood either.

EDIT: Of course, we may not be talking about just a carefree childhood. Just one that is simpler. Being confused about the world around you and knowing that you have to make sense of it all by yourself. is a terrible feeling for some. So they seek authority about what is moral and what is not. For some, God works as one I guess.

[Mayabird]

Memory usually colors things to make them better than they actually were. People forget the bad things and cling to the good things, and a lot of those good things weren't actually that good at the time. That's why people get nostalgic about stuff that actually sucked giant flaccid donkey cock, like high school.

HOWEVER, I could see people who are told continuously that they want their happy carefree childhoods back and don't remember how it actually was believing it. Especially people who have been infantliized since they emerged from infancy.

[Spekio]

Memory usually colors things to make them better than they actually were. People forget the bad things and cling to the good things, and a lot of those good things weren't actually that good at the time. That's why people get nostalgic about stuff that actually sucked giant flaccid donkey cock, like high school.

HOWEVER, I could see people who are told continuously that they want their happy carefree childhoods back and don't remember how it actually was believing it. Especially people who have been infantliized since they emerged from infancy.

I couldn't agree with you more. And the thing is: It's proportionally harder to how smart you are. People are fucking stupid, and when you are a child, you are expected to mingle, otherwise, therapy.

And what are Christians other then people with a father figure in the sky? They want to please daddy,therefore they need to know if he aproves this or that.

[Darth Wong]

I, still not a fully-hatched adult, think that one of the second most frightening things about becoming an adult is that I will have to make my own mistakes. The idea that no one makes mistakes, even ones that will effect the rest of their lives, is of course non-sense, but one that is still most attractive. So it should come to no surprise that some people will cling to the ideas and stunted philosophies that given them comfort when they are in the world of adults.

That's not frightening at all. What's frightening about being an adult is the responsibility of raising a child, where another human being's entire life will be affected by your decisions and mistakes.

Because if you think about it, what other thing does an adult want than to be a carefree child again?

I'm an adult and I don't want to be a child again. But perhaps I am not representative. Some adults do enjoy the feeling of being led around, told what to do, believing they're under the watchful eye of a protector, etc.

[Tanasinn]

With the fact that Christian superstition proscribes brutal punishment for any variety of transgressions, it's hardly surprising a "God-fearing Christian" would look to others before unwittingly damning themselves.

[Junghalli]

Christians believe that God is always watching them and judging the morality of every action they take. Any time they step out of line with what God wants they think He'll be displeased with them for it, and they often think of God as having a line on a lot of stuff. With that in mind it's no surprise some of them would stress about things like whether they're enjoying the wrong sort entertainment.

[Marcus Aurelius]

With the fact that Christian superstition proscribes brutal punishment for any variety of transgressions, it's hardly surprising a "God-fearing Christian" would look to others before unwittingly damning themselves.

It's not quite that simple. In fundamentalist Christianity the world is basically a corrupted place ruled by Satan and his minions. A Christian is allowed to interact with the world around her, but she is not supposed accommodate the wishes of the surrounding evil and profane world, since too much integration would inevitably lead to temptation and sin and possibly to loss of Faith if everything goes according to the Evil One's plan.

Instead, she is supposed to follow the example of Christ, which is largely defined by the dogmas of her church and customs of her congregation. That is why fundamentalists often ask advice from fellow fundies is something is OK for them to do. They do not fear so much the punishment than that it might lead them away from Faith, which of course leads to the same thing, but you do not go to hell just by watching porn or listening to Howard Stern. That is also the reason why most fundies allow to themselves what is considered "harmless" secular entertainment, but of course the definition of "harmless" is all over the place depending on the Church and congregation. To the most extreme there is no such thing.

To be truthful this principle is not limited to Protestant Fundamentalists either, since Catholics as well are still supposed to listen to the advice of the Church of how to relate to worldly matters. The RCC just has a such a long tradition and an vast machinery going up to the Pope (and supposedly from there, Jesus himself) that defines such things for Catholics that it is often not understood in the same light.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. This.

The post quoted in the original post on this thread is a the fundie's version of a "sanity check" on their actions. Since it's all about faithfulness, call it a "fidelity check."

In their frame of reference, without divine grace they're damned just by virtue (by vice?) of having human impulses. Their only lifeline is to hang on to that promise of salvation, and thinking too little about salvation constitutes letting go. But a lot of the stuff that could inspire them to let go is both not wrong in itself; it's only dangerous because it reduces your mental tie to Jesus Christ.

And that's where the fundamentalist impulse to censor stuff comes from: they believe that the main mechanism that stops people from going to Heaven and enjoying eternal bliss is, for lack of a better term, thoughtcrime. Thinking too hard about science is thoughtcrime, because it subverts faith in Biblical literalism and/or the authority of religious leaders. Thinking too hard about the whys and wherefores of Christian doctrine ("how does it make sense to do X, if Y?") can be a thoughtcrime, for the same reasons. Paying too much attention to secular entertainment, at the expense of religious activities, or when it subverts religious belief, likewise.

And given their definition of thoughtcrime, the only thing to do is to try to purge it from the world, because much of it is too seductive to be ignored...

[Darth Wong]

Christians are in an uncomfortable spot when you think about it: their faith is based on the fear of Hell and the promise of Heaven, and they believe your fate is determined by the contents of your mind rather than the history of your actions.

The thing is, you don't have full control of your mind. Sure, you have conscious thought, and the ability to make decisions, but can you control a sudden random or environmentally triggered impulse entering your mind? Or a desire? A thought? Of course not. So if you're a Christian, you're in the tough situation of fearing that your ultimate salvation from an eternity of anguish lies in something you can't entirely control.

Worse yet, you get no real direct feedback on your salvation status (since God either does not exist or is mute). Therefore, if you're a Christian, you know that your fate depends on your thoughts, but you have no way of ascertaining what that fate is. In short, you don't know for certain what God thinks of you.

No wonder there's so much Christian fear of "impure" influences.

[Oskuro]

^The biggest problem with the fear of impulses, is that they have the belief that people can control said impulses and are, as such, responsible for them. This is a common idea in society, probably inherited from this religious viewpoint.

To provide a funny example, I've found on many occasions women who think that when a man gets an erection it is because he wants to. It was really funny the day that a girl who had a brother had to explain to another girl how it was sometimes out of our control (since she saw her brother wake up erect often). I even added that women can, at times, have more control over a man's erection that the man himself

So there's the thing. When there is the notion that even natural impulses are a person's fault because of its lack of faith/self-control/morality, one can see why believers might go into a crisis when a 17-year-old wearing revealing clothing walks by and they catch themselves looking at her fine ass.

[Enola Straight]

One of the Universal Truths can be applied here:

When you place an Object/Subject in an Environment, there exists a dynamic between the environment and the object; the object influences the environment, and the environment influences the object.

If you accept the premise that bad=sin=harm, then you can choose a path that interrupts the cycle of corruption between you (the subject) and the environment (the world).

Roman Catholics...and supposedly, other christian denominations...call this Avoiding the Near Occasion of Sin.

Perhaps the quotee is not simply concerned that he/she avoids hell and gets into heaven, but cares if sin "contaminates" his environment; wants his kids to stay out of juvie hall, keep the spouse from straying, keep business dealings above board so he won't lose his job, don't vote for corrupt politicians so his city, state, and nation aren't rotten, etc.

[Count Chocula]

I was raised Catholic and listened to Howard Stern on my daily paper route (yes I'm that fucking old) when he was broadcasting from WWDC in good ol' Washington, DC. Before he was tossed out of DC for calling Air Florida ticketing on the air to ask how much a flight from Washington National to the 14th Street Bridge cost. You youngsters, Google "Air Florida Flight 90." I found him bawdy, puerile, irreverent, and crude, which perfectly meshed with my teenage mindset. I haven't listened to him in decades.

My guess, Supes, is that the poster is either a teenager (unlikely), or a juvenile-minded adult looking for support. The kind of guy who would like to make fart jokes around his 30-something friends but isn't sure it's still cool. Don't get me wrong, I think fart jokes are funny but I only do them around my son, who's five. IMO what we have here is a case of arrested development in conflict with authoritarian (Christian) dogma, and almost certainly not Catholic. I'm guessing he's Reformed Baptist, Lutheran, or some similar uptight sect.

[Liberty]

Christians fear that they will be deprived of heaven by thought crime. Whoever first pointed that out nailed it.

The fundies I grew up around were relatively well off, with intact families, etc - in other words, they didn't spend much time stealing, cheating, doing drugs, etc. So the fear of sin was almost completely a fear of little sins and thought crime. I was taught that the first look (noticing that 17-year-old's ass) isn't the sin, it's the second look, or the dwelling on it.

Another point: fundies are not united in what they believe is right and wrong, etc. Also, they declare that everyone has the ability to interpret the Bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit, on their own. So, I don't have to listen to anyone else's interpretation - I interpret it myself. In reality, however, that rarely happens.

There is also the idea in some circles that fundies have never made it past the childhood stage, and don't think for themselves, but rather transfer everything to a father in the sky.

[Spoonist]

Also, they declare that everyone has the ability to interpret the Bible, with the help of the Holy Spirit, on their own. So, I don't have to listen to anyone else's interpretation - I interpret it myself.

Nitpick. That would only be true for some denominations and not for all fundies.