[Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
weemadando
SMAKIBBFB
Posts: 19195
Joined: 2002-07-28 12:30pm
Contact:

[Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by weemadando »

So - a question to Americans (and anyone else) - how valid are these points? I think that a lot of hte US "RAH RAH RAH NATIONALISM!" is a response to there no longer being the reliance upon them that there was during the Cold War and also the fact that world opinion has turned on them for the most part in the past 40 years or so.

It's an interesting piece - but could it really be one of the reasons for the backlash against Obama?
The Age wrote:Obama a victim as Americans struggle to accept a lesser role
TOM SWITZER
January 22, 2010
If a week is a long time in politics, then a year is an eternity. Twelve months ago, Barack Obama's presidential inauguration completed a political realignment in the US. Democrats had huge majorities in both houses of Congress and liberals were dominant in Washington for the first time since Lyndon Johnson's ''Great Society'' of the 1960s. Pundits proclaimed the end of conservatism and there was heady talk of a new dawn.

Today, however, the President and his party are in the political doldrums and voters are rebelling in states that Obama won comfortably only a year ago. The discontent runs so deep that a conservative won the Senate seat in a state with no Republican members of Congress and that had been represented by the Kennedy family for six decades. The prospects for Obama's legislative agenda - from health-care reform to an emissions trading scheme - look increasingly bleak. The vaunted liberal realignment has vanished within a year. It was not supposed to be this way.

White House apologists blame the Democratic candidate in Massachusetts, Martha Coakley, whose endless gaffes make Sarah Palin look almost presidential in comparison.

Meanwhile, her Republican opponent, Scott Brown, was the model candidate: smart, athletic, charismatic, handsome and a family man. But the candidates, however weak or impressive, do not explain the tidal wave of discontent that has swept across one of America's most liberal states.

Conservatives have a different interpretation: the Republican Party's resounding victory is a rejection of what the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist Charles Krauthammer describes as "the most radical [in American terms] ideological agenda since the New Deal" of the 1930s: namely, liberal Democratic legislation on health, education and climate change. America, after all, is a right-of-centre nation: polls show conservatives remain the largest ideological group, outnumbering liberals nearly two to one.

The Massachusetts result, along with Republican wins in governor races in Virginia and New Jersey in November, represent a backlash against big government.

But although Americans may be rejecting Obama's vast expansion of state power, neither are they embracing the Republican agenda. The party is leaderless and riven by factionalism. It has been suffering the kind of mental sclerosis that afflicted Democrats in the 1970s. With most conservatives identifying shock-jock Rush Limbaugh as their leader, it is clear that Republicans lack philosophical self-reflection.

A more intriguing explanation for Massachusetts exists: that the backlash against Washington has less to do with Obama's ideological overreach and more to do with America's spiritual doldrums.

As he commemorates his first year, Obama is understandably focused on reviving the US economy and rebuilding Haiti and Afghanistan.

But he has the even more difficult task of restoring the American people's faith in their future. In other words, the US is bogged down in a cultural crisis, and this stems from expectations about America's future that no president can meet. For generations, Americans have seen their nation as "a city upon a hill" (John Winthrop) and "the last best hope of Earth" (Abraham Lincoln) that would make the world "safe for democracy" (Woodrow Wilson).

The same vision is echoed in the idea of the American Century, which shaped the national consciousness after World War II, when the US enjoyed an almost absolute supremacy in world affairs. The collapse of Soviet communism and end of the Cold War reinforced the perception of American exceptionalism.

But many things in recent decades - the quagmires in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, Watergate and other political scandals, the mounting trade and budget deficits, the subprime mortgage crisis, the decline of US unipolarity and what Irving Kristol said were "clear signs of rot and decay germinating in American society" - have helped to shatter US confidence. Suddenly, the dominant vision of Pax Americana faded without anything - even the war on terror - emerging to replace it.

The void means that Americans have oscillated between periods of clarity and purpose, and periods of intense doubt and uncertainty. Clearly, Americans in 2008 embraced Obama's optimistic vision of change and renewal. But in the year since, he has failed to meet the lofty expectations that the public, the media and he himself set.

In recent years, polls consistently show most Americans think their nation is heading down the wrong path. Hence the rapid mood swings within the electorate, epitomised in Obama's fall from adulation to anger within a year.

Of course, America has undergone crises before, but it has never endured one quite like this. It is not just that the US military is stretched to breaking point. Nor is it just that the US is mired in double-digit unemployment and skyrocketing levels of debt. It is more to do with whether Americans will gracefully accept a lesser role in a multipolar world.

Notwithstanding the hopes of the Obama campaign in 2008, the President has been unable to quiet Americans' doubts about their future. That may not be his fault, but it helps explain the meaning of Massachusetts.

Tom Switzer is a research associate at the United States Studies Centre and editor of The Spectator Australia.
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Guardsman Bass »

namely, liberal Democratic legislation on health, education and climate change. America, after all, is a right-of-centre nation: polls show conservatives remain the largest ideological group, outnumbering liberals nearly two to one.
The polls tend to be heavily divided depending on how you ask the questions. "Liberal" tends to be an unpopular monikor, but "Democrats" outnumber "Republicans", and you get a wide variety of odd results like the polls earlier this year showing majority support for a "Public Option" (namely, a publicly-run insurance to co-exist with private insurance) that are hard to square with this so-called backlash.

And Krauthammer is frankly full of shit. What the Democrats have been trying is downright conservative compared to a lot of the legislation that the liberal Democrats (and liberal Republicans) pushed and passed in the 1960s, ranging from bills that attempted to dismantle the remnant of a centuries-old racial caste system (witness the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which was passed after a filibuster that lasted for 54 days), to extensive reforms and programs ranging from Medicare/Medicaid as well as other "Great Society" programs. Moreover, some of LBJ's rhetoric from that period, particularly 1965, makes Obama's "share the wealth around a bit" statement in 2008 seem pretty moderate by comparison.
A more intriguing explanation for Massachusetts exists: that the backlash against Washington has less to do with Obama's ideological overreach and more to do with America's spiritual doldrums.
I think it probably had more to do with a weak economy and jobs market, combined with the fact that Massachusetts already has its own universal health coverage reform (and Brown used this, basically saying that he'd help protect it against federal intrusions).
It is more to do with whether Americans will gracefully accept a lesser role in a multipolar world.
Does any Great Power accept a lesser role gracefully? The British tried to hang on to their power long after they were merely one among equals instead of the major economic powerhouse (like they were in much of the 19th century), and even after the devastation of World War 2, they and France still wanted to make efforts to hang on to their former empires. And from what I read, the Brits were none too happy about America shoving them into a junior partner role at Bretton Woods in 1944 in the prospective new international monetary order.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Patrick Degan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 14847
Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
Location: Orleanian in exile

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Patrick Degan »

I think that Switzer is reaching a bit too hard to weave the difficulties of Obama and the Democrats, as well as the Brown/Coakley race into his overarching theme of American decline. The Massachussets Senate election as well as most other American elections can pretty much be explained through an observable truism of American culture, as summed up by the Patton quote that "Americans love a winner, and will not tolerate a loser". The candidate which looks like a loser going toward election day invariably ends up being the loser when the vote comes down. The same thing can be said of the current frustration with the Democrats, who not only seem like losers for failing to make their power effective despite having the majority in both houses but actively advertising that impression at every opportunity. For all the analysis and examination devoted to party ideologies, policy initiatives and electoral maths, our politics are still very much rooted in basic primate pack-behaviour: the instinct to cluster around the alpha males (and these days females as well) for security and reward, or the instinct to submit to the primate most aggressively waving his dick and a big blood-smeared club. This means inevitably trusting/fearing those we perceive as winners and distrusting/ignoring those we perceive as losers.

Our politics in a nutshell: four million years of evolution and yet still reacting the same as the apes in the Dawn of Man scene from 2001: A Space Odyssey.
When ballots have fairly and constitutionally decided, there can be no successful appeal back to bullets.
—Abraham Lincoln

People pray so that God won't crush them like bugs.
—Dr. Gregory House

Oil an emergency?! It's about time, Brigadier, that the leaders of this planet of yours realised that to remain dependent upon a mineral slime simply doesn't make sense.
—The Doctor "Terror Of The Zygons" (1975)
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

I think that Mr. Switzer sort of misses the real source of American angst relating to the world around them. It's not so much that Americans are undergoing a deep spiritual crisis over the fact that the facts of life require that we treat China, Russia, England, India, and other significant powers with respect; that we're not the only bully on the block has been the American experience for a majority of its history. It's more that Americans dislike that elements of our leadership believe we should join other nations, many of them third-world nations with insignificant military and economic power, in kowtowing to "the international community." I believe that the fact that a bunch of smaller nations can get together at a "Conference on Children's Rights" or whatever and demand that America do as its told annoys Americans but that part of our elected leaders seem to agree really raises our hackles. Moreover, this is a pretty common sentiment; very few nations like it when a bunch of other nations get together, trade speeches, eat fancy lunches, then emerge to demand that they obey the will of "the international community" irregardless of how culturally unacceptable the community's demands are. Americans like to regard themselves as the world's last best hope and a shining city on a hill but this self-image isn't really harmed by the fact that we have economic and military competitors; to bring it down to a smaller scale, a professional sports player doesn't stop thinking that he's extremely awesome at what he does just because there're players equal to or better than himself.
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by bobalot »

Serafine666 wrote:I think that Mr. Switzer sort of misses the real source of American angst relating to the world around them. It's not so much that Americans are undergoing a deep spiritual crisis over the fact that the facts of life require that we treat China, Russia, England, India, and other significant powers with respect; that we're not the only bully on the block has been the American experience for a majority of its history. It's more that Americans dislike that elements of our leadership believe we should join other nations, many of them third-world nations with insignificant military and economic power, in kowtowing to "the international community." I believe that the fact that a bunch of smaller nations can get together at a "Conference on Children's Rights" or whatever and demand that America do as its told annoys Americans but that part of our elected leaders seem to agree really raises our hackles. Moreover, this is a pretty common sentiment; very few nations like it when a bunch of other nations get together, trade speeches, eat fancy lunches, then emerge to demand that they obey the will of "the international community" irregardless of how culturally unacceptable the community's demands are. Americans like to regard themselves as the world's last best hope and a shining city on a hill but this self-image isn't really harmed by the fact that we have economic and military competitors; to bring it down to a smaller scale, a professional sports player doesn't stop thinking that he's extremely awesome at what he does just because there're players equal to or better than himself.
1. That sounds like a bullshit talking point. Name the "elements of our leadership" who support this supposed emasculation of America and name the exact policies that would make America "kowtow" to the rest of the world.
2. Do you have any actual supporting proof for any of this?
3. Did it really require you to post a vague meandering post paragraph to make such a simple argument? Jesus Christ, must you waffle all the time? I feel like falling asleep halfway through your posts.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Guardsman Bass »

1. That sounds like a bullshit talking point. Name the "elements of our leadership" who support this supposed emasculation of America and name the exact policies that would make America "kowtow" to the rest of the world.
No leader says exactly that. However, he would point to sentiment and beliefs that the US should "seek permission" before using the military or anything like that from the UN, whose membership is largely composed of third-world nations.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by bobalot »

Guardsman Bass wrote:
1. That sounds like a bullshit talking point. Name the "elements of our leadership" who support this supposed emasculation of America and name the exact policies that would make America "kowtow" to the rest of the world.
No leader says exactly that. However, he would point to sentiment and beliefs that the US should "seek permission" before using the military or anything like that from the UN, whose membership is largely composed of third-world nations.
1. We both know the members which make up U.N security council makes the major decisions. Your point about the U.N being made of third world nations is a red herring, as they have little power within the organisation or in international relations in general.

2. Seeking international support for large scale military actions (or similar) is now seen as weakness? Wasn't this the norm for much of the cold war period.

All I see is Americans whining that moving away from a foreign policy where America simply ordered the rest of the world around like vassal states is seen as weakness. This is despite the fact this former policy has had a disastrous effect on American prestige and could be rightly described generally as a failure.
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
Andrew J.
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3508
Joined: 2002-08-18 03:07pm
Location: The Adirondacks

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Andrew J. »

In my experience, any statement that describes an action with the verb "kowtow" is automatically suspect. I have almost never seen it used for anything besides hyperbole grossly out of proportion with the actual degree of submission involved, meant to evoke an irrational emotional response. (The exceptions all involve word's literal meaning.)
Don't hate; appreciate!

RIP Eddie.
User avatar
Dark Hellion
Permanent n00b
Posts: 3558
Joined: 2002-08-25 07:56pm

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Dark Hellion »

Serafine's comments sound remarkably like those of a rich high schooler complaining that the school's administration actually has the gall to make him play by the same rules as the other kids, even though those other kids aren't a rich, strong, smart or popular as he is. The idea that being more powerful than other nations gives us some special moral privilege is a problematic position that many people in the U.S. hold.
A teenage girl is just a teenage boy who can get laid.
-GTO

We're not just doing this for money; we're doing this for a shitload of money!
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

Dark Hellion wrote:Serafine's comments sound remarkably like those of a rich high schooler complaining that the school's administration actually has the gall to make him play by the same rules as the other kids, even though those other kids aren't a rich, strong, smart or popular as he is. The idea that being more powerful than other nations gives us some special moral privilege is a problematic position that many people in the U.S. hold.
Not so much special moral privilege as the privilege of deciding which elective causes, wars, and externally-determined internal standards we involve ourselves in. An inherent consequence of being poor and powerless is that those who are rich and powerful can make demands of your resources that you're in no position to oppose. A poor African nation that depends strongly on foreign aid can either bow to whatever strings are attached (get rid of this leader, change this law, give us a special bargain on your raw resources) or skirt dangerously close to collapse because it loses the ability to provide security to the population. If a rich powerful nation determines that your new medicine factory is, in fact, a front for making chemical weapons, you have no ability to stop them from bombing you and are powerless to retaliate or obtain justice if that rich and powerful nation screwed up. One of America's founding fathers remarked that "a nation, despicable in its weakness, forfeits even the right to be neutral" and this is pretty much how things are regardless of the UN or "the international community" or any particular "international law": such standards can only be enforced on nations that are either willing or have been beaten into submission. There may not be moral privileges to being rich and powerful but there are inherent privileges to being in a position to say "no" when well-meaning bureaucrats get together and demand that you adopt their vision of "proper" gun control laws or the "rights of children" or whatever bee is in their bonnet this month. In some cases, these pet ideas would either be in direct opposition to internal American law or be one of those things that the voters aren't allowed to have any say in; brown-nosing American leaders demand that America act as if it is one of those unfortunate nations that can be bullied by cash or bullets into doing the "right thing" as determined by other people. No nation's people are happy when busybodies come into their country and demand that they do a certain thing but it especially bites when the only reason it's happening is that your leaders decided to let others with no authority dictate what "the right thing" is.
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Andrew J.
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3508
Joined: 2002-08-18 03:07pm
Location: The Adirondacks

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Andrew J. »

Serafine666 wrote:
Dark Hellion wrote:Serafine's comments sound remarkably like those of a rich high schooler complaining that the school's administration actually has the gall to make him play by the same rules as the other kids, even though those other kids aren't a rich, strong, smart or popular as he is. The idea that being more powerful than other nations gives us some special moral privilege is a problematic position that many people in the U.S. hold.
Not so much special moral privilege as the privilege of deciding which elective causes, wars, and externally-determined internal standards we involve ourselves in. An inherent consequence of being poor and powerless is that those who are rich and powerful can make demands of your resources that you're in no position to oppose. A poor African nation that depends strongly on foreign aid can either bow to whatever strings are attached (get rid of this leader, change this law, give us a special bargain on your raw resources) or skirt dangerously close to collapse because it loses the ability to provide security to the population. If a rich powerful nation determines that your new medicine factory is, in fact, a front for making chemical weapons, you have no ability to stop them from bombing you and are powerless to retaliate or obtain justice if that rich and powerful nation screwed up. One of America's founding fathers remarked that "a nation, despicable in its weakness, forfeits even the right to be neutral" and this is pretty much how things are regardless of the UN or "the international community" or any particular "international law": such standards can only be enforced on nations that are either willing or have been beaten into submission. There may not be moral privileges to being rich and powerful but there are inherent privileges to being in a position to say "no" when well-meaning bureaucrats get together and demand that you adopt their vision of "proper" gun control laws or the "rights of children" or whatever bee is in their bonnet this month. In some cases, these pet ideas would either be in direct opposition to internal American law or be one of those things that the voters aren't allowed to have any say in; brown-nosing American leaders demand that America act as if it is one of those unfortunate nations that can be bullied by cash or bullets into doing the "right thing" as determined by other people. No nation's people are happy when busybodies come into their country and demand that they do a certain thing but it especially bites when the only reason it's happening is that your leaders decided to let others with no authority dictate what "the right thing" is.
Ooh, a hardcore realist! I though you guys were extinct!

But no, that's not how anybody except the extremely cynical really sees international relations anymore. There's much more to it than the strong imposing their will on the weak, and I doubt you'd find many Americans willing to say otherwise, at least as baldly as you've put it here.
Don't hate; appreciate!

RIP Eddie.
User avatar
UnderAGreySky
Jedi Knight
Posts: 641
Joined: 2010-01-07 06:39pm
Location: the land of tea and crumpets

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Serafine666 wrote:brown-nosing American leaders demand that America act as if it is one of those unfortunate nations that can be bullied by cash or bullets into doing the "right thing" as determined by other people.
Could you, kind sir, give examples as to

1) When this has happened
2) The askers have not been told to bugger off?
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies,
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

Andrew J. wrote:Ooh, a hardcore realist! I though you guys were extinct!
I'm floored at meeting anyone who's actually familiar enough with the political philosophy to identify it from someone's ramblings. I'm duly impressed.
Andrew J. wrote:But no, that's not how anybody except the extremely cynical really sees international relations anymore. There's much more to it than the strong imposing their will on the weak, and I doubt you'd find many Americans willing to say otherwise, at least as baldly as you've put it here.
Admittedly, yeah, I let my "mouth" run away with me a little. My difficulty is that I don't see any alternative theory sufficient to explain the history of 1900 to present day. Even after the advent of liberalism (also called Wilsonism, as I recall), it still seems that nations largely act as if they're abiding by the realist premise that nations act in strict furtherance of their interests constrained by how effectively their neighbors can stop them. "National interests" also seems to explain explain why various nations sign on to whatever whim the "international community" is advancing this week.
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

UnderAGreySky wrote:Could you, kind sir, give examples as to

1) When this has happened
2) The askers have not been told to bugger off?
I think I can answer #1 but could you reword #2? I'm not really sure what that second question is meaning to ask.
As to that first question, it's not so much that they did what they were told but rather that they appeared to take it seriously. For example, the United States put a signature on the Rome Statute (creating the International Criminal Court) and the Kyoto Protocol but both gestures were symbolic surrender because Clinton knew that Congress would roundly refuse to bind the US to the documents. America also made noises about supporting the World Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance (in Durban, South Africa marked by the US and Israel walking out in protest and several nations refusing to attend the 2009 follow-up), the International Conference on Small Arms Proliferation and Trade (although NRA pressure eventually convinced some of the US negotiators to gut the document to make it harmless to the 2nd Amendment), the Convention of the Rights of the Child (signed but Congress refuses to ratify), and other such documents where political leaders signed and supported it but the American people made it too politically costly to actually ratify them.
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Andrew J.
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3508
Joined: 2002-08-18 03:07pm
Location: The Adirondacks

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Andrew J. »

Serafine666 wrote:Admittedly, yeah, I let my "mouth" run away with me a little. My difficulty is that I don't see any alternative theory sufficient to explain the history of 1900 to present day. Even after the advent of liberalism (also called Wilsonism, as I recall)
You recall incorrectly. Liberalism in international relations is a theory that allows for greater levels of state cooperation than realism. Wilsonian ideas are about spreading democracy and capitalism through American foreign policy.
it still seems that nations largely act as if they're abiding by the realist premise that nations act in strict furtherance of their interests constrained by how effectively their neighbors can stop them. "National interests" also seems to explain explain why various nations sign on to whatever whim the "international community" is advancing this week.
International law and international standards of behavior are not whims. They are subject to long periods of development over the course of decades, and your characterization of them as flighty and unimportant grows tiresome. Pure realism cannot explain why states have so consistently cooperated with each other regarding the numerous but relatively small issues governed by international law and international standards.
Don't hate; appreciate!

RIP Eddie.
User avatar
UnderAGreySky
Jedi Knight
Posts: 641
Joined: 2010-01-07 06:39pm
Location: the land of tea and crumpets

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by UnderAGreySky »

Serafine666 wrote:I think I can answer #1 but could you reword #2? I'm not really sure what that second question is meaning to ask.
As to that first question, it's not so much that they did what they were told but rather that they appeared to take it seriously. For example, the United States put a signature on the Rome Statute (creating the International Criminal Court) and the Kyoto Protocol but both gestures were symbolic surrender because Clinton knew that Congress would roundly refuse to bind the US to the documents. America also made noises about supporting the World Conference against Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance (in Durban, South Africa marked by the US and Israel walking out in protest and several nations refusing to attend the 2009 follow-up), the International Conference on Small Arms Proliferation and Trade (although NRA pressure eventually convinced some of the US negotiators to gut the document to make it harmless to the 2nd Amendment), the Convention of the Rights of the Child (signed but Congress refuses to ratify), and other such documents where political leaders signed and supported it but the American people made it too politically costly to actually ratify them.
So the only (handful of) decisions that have been taken were those that would never get through Congress?

That hardly compares to the doom-n'-gloom statement about "America acting like it is being bullied" that I saw.

And I find it hard to believe that a nationalist depression or whatever is afflicting the United States has anything to do with the common man's feelings about Clinton signing Kyoto or whatever. How many of your countrymen even heard of the 'World Conference Against Racism' anyway?
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies,
Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earth-bound misfit, I
User avatar
Stuart Mackey
Drunken Kiwi Editor of the ASVS Press
Posts: 5946
Joined: 2002-07-04 12:28am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Stuart Mackey »

Serafine666 wrote:snip
An inherent consequence of being poor and powerless is that those who are rich and powerful can make demands of your resources that you're in no position to oppose.
Unless you are New Zealand, re the US. :P
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"

Jean Omer Marie Gabriel Monnet
--------------
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

Andrew J. wrote:You recall incorrectly. Liberalism in international relations is a theory that allows for greater levels of state cooperation than realism. Wilsonian ideas are about spreading democracy and capitalism through American foreign policy.
I don't think so. Considering that the initiative that Woodrow Wilson regarded as having the greatest importance was the League of Nations (greater levels of state cooperation than realism) and that was the thing which he put his greatest efforts into ensuring, I think that Wilsonian is what you describe liberalism to be. I'm not really sure where you got your definition of Wilsonian... Wilson did indeed do a speech about "the world must be made safe for democracy" but his international policy revolved around large cooperative entities like the League.
Andrew J. wrote:International law and international standards of behavior are not whims. They are subject to long periods of development over the course of decades, and your characterization of them as flighty and unimportant grows tiresome. Pure realism cannot explain why states have so consistently cooperated with each other regarding the numerous but relatively small issues governed by international law and international standards.
The incredible shortness of their development cycle argues for them being more like a whim than a carefully-constructed standard constantly refined into its present form; you may find it tiresome that I regard the product of a week of lunches and bargains to be the product of whim but I don't see a better way to characterize it.
Oh, that's easy... they do it because it normally costs the state virtually nothing in return for reducing the hostilities with nations that may otherwise obstruct them. If you can be China or India and agree with the rhetoric that all the Western counties get together and reduce their carbon emissions (which will have the effect of constraining their economies in comparison to yours) while you yourself have to do nothing, this can be easily explained by the realist theory of opposing powers: China/India get to garner intense goodwill while encouraging potential rivals to voluntarily harm themselves.
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

UnderAGreySky wrote:So the only (handful of) decisions that have been taken were those that would never get through Congress?

That hardly compares to the doom-n'-gloom statement about "America acting like it is being bullied" that I saw.
To be more specific, I was talking about America acting as if it was one of those small impoverished states that have little choice but to obey the wishes of the larger states that give then resources and have bigger armies than they do. America doesn't really have to be bullied to achieve the result but the leaders act as if they lead a state that is afraid of the states demanding their compliance.
UnderAGreySky wrote:And I find it hard to believe that a nationalist depression or whatever is afflicting the United States has anything to do with the common man's feelings about Clinton signing Kyoto or whatever. How many of your countrymen even heard of the 'World Conference Against Racism' anyway?
Few if any of them. However, those were all examples of the type of behavior I was talking about; a citizen need not have heard of a single of those specific cases to come away with the impression that their "shining city on a hill nation" was being represented by the leadership as being just as weak as what are contemptuously called "tin pot dictatorships" or "banana boat republics."

So again... what were you trying to ask with your second question above?
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Serafine666
Jedi Knight
Posts: 554
Joined: 2009-11-19 09:43pm
Location: Sherwood, OR, USA

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Serafine666 »

Stuart Mackey wrote:Unless you are New Zealand, re the US. :P
:lol: Well, nations that a bigger nations feels warm and fuzzy towards can generally get away with it. I meant all of that as a very non-specific statement.
[line 2]
Image
"Freedom is not an external truth. It exists within men, and those who wish to be free are free." - Paul Ernst

The world is black and white. People, however, are grey.

When man has no choice but to do good, there's no point in calling him moral.
User avatar
Andrew J.
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3508
Joined: 2002-08-18 03:07pm
Location: The Adirondacks

Re: [Op-Ed] A nationalist "depression"

Post by Andrew J. »

Serafine666 wrote:I don't think so. Considering that the initiative that Woodrow Wilson regarded as having the greatest importance was the League of Nations (greater levels of state cooperation than realism) and that was the thing which he put his greatest efforts into ensuring, I think that Wilsonian is what you describe liberalism to be. I'm not really sure where you got your definition of Wilsonian... Wilson did indeed do a speech about "the world must be made safe for democracy" but his international policy revolved around large cooperative entities like the League.
You're thinking of idealism. That school, while it existed, was associated with the application of Wilsonian ideas more generally (ie, each state applying its domestic ideas to foreign affairs). Liberal international relations theory grew out of that after WWII, emphasizing international institutions over the spreading of capitalist and democratic values, but equating them entirely would be erroneous.
The incredible shortness of their development cycle argues for them being more like a whim than a carefully-constructed standard constantly refined into its present form; you may find it tiresome that I regard the product of a week of lunches and bargains to be the product of whim but I don't see a better way to characterize it.
Care to cite any actual examples? The Convention on the Rights on the Child, which you have obliquely referred to throughout this thread, took over ten years from the introduction of the first draft in the General Assembly to when it was opened for signature. (It's possible to trace back the development of its principles as far back as the 1920s, of course.)
Oh, that's easy... they do it because it normally costs the state virtually nothing in return for reducing the hostilities with nations that may otherwise obstruct them. If you can be China or India and agree with the rhetoric that all the Western counties get together and reduce their carbon emissions (which will have the effect of constraining their economies in comparison to yours) while you yourself have to do nothing, this can be easily explained by the realist theory of opposing powers: China/India get to garner intense goodwill while encouraging potential rivals to voluntarily harm themselves.
Not a really good example. I'm not even sure your characterization of the facts is right; if anything, China and India have won more goodwill (among the developing world, at least) by decrying the Western nations for their hypocrisy than from calling for them to reduce emissions.
Don't hate; appreciate!

RIP Eddie.
Post Reply