Tyranids vs the Galactic Empire

[Shroom Man 777]

Not how bloody, since blasters tend to cauterize, but just how... "big" can these ground wars get, how protracted, how grueling and long and resource-intensive and hard can it be? I mean, between the "brush-fires" and the perceived focus of Jedi Generals leading fast campaigns in all sorts of planets and the relative shortness of the Clone Wars (three years?) and the lack of bigass planetary campaigns in the Galactic Civil War (due to Rebel insurgency tactics), the way planetary warfare is conducted in SW seems pretty different than 40k.

[PainRack]

Dude, in the Ciaphas Cain book, the Nids were all about creating a false flag operation - not only in one side, but in both human and Tau lines, cultivating rebel and traitor elements in the human side to provoke both factions to kill each other. While that does not translate to the 'Nids automatically developing political savvy in the affairs of Star Wars factions, it still shows that they're pretty clever cookies and that their tactics go beyond merely "go to a planet and eat it" and can be, in fact, very deviously subtle.

The Gravalax operation had the genestealer CULT doing that, inciting a conflict between the Tau and the humans. Its arguable that it was an more elaborate twist on the "normal" disrupt defences by exploiting an already existing point of contention between two groups.
The "incite a war so that the Tau will be bogged down and leave a opening for the Nids" is a guess made by Amberly. Another possibility why the splinter group was diverted to Tau space is due to the nature of the genestealer call. Even if no cults had been established in Tau space, there is one now thanks to Gravalax.

And a fat load of good COMPNOR did the Galactic Empire. Fact is, after a relatively minor upset, the Galactic Empire fucking fucked up and shattered. A bunch of ragtag rebels were able to fracture the dictatorship and carve up sizeable chunks out of the GE.

You forgot. The whole warlords bit mostly consisted of different warlords fighting against other warlords who they believed were betraying the Imperial vision.

The SW version of the Age of Apotasy.... sort of....

When it comes down to it, the Imperium's various totalitarian apparatuses are way more effective than the Galactic Empire's. The Empire barely lasted half a century before it broke down by virtue of a bunch of ragtags. The Imperium, on the other hand, has lasted a whole lot of centuries while dealing with everything from internal dissent and subversion in the form of superhuman soldiers being possessed by and worshipping horrific (and REAL) deities, to outright mutiny and rebellion by these said elements, to full scale war with more than half a dozen obscene alien species hell bent on fucking humanity over with their own brand of atrocities and obscenities.

The Imperium is the power that's rivalled by Chaos cults, infiltration by Chaos and genestealers and more, have governors that are subverted by the Tau to the extent that a governor could actively fuck up IG defences of the lines, before being stopped by the Cadian regiment in HellForge.
The Empire might had been toppled by the Rebellion, but they were the ones who routinely broke up rebel cells and organisations, etc etc etc. Looked at from that perspective, their internal security is infinitely more successful than the Imperium. The difference rests entirely in the political control of the Empire vs the Imperium. EVEN here, the technological differences play a role.

For one, the greater communications and FTL travel in the Empire allows for much more effective control of Imperial territories. Mon Calamari is the notable exception, but Imperial forces are able to routinely concentrate forces and re-occupy breakaway worlds. Breakaway and "defecting" Imperial forces are not largescale or remain viable as large combat units.

Even the defection of senior admirals with sizeable resources could be cauterised much faster than the Imperium equivalent, such as the TIE defender debacle. In the Imperium, such breakaway forces, especially at so senior levels could probably get away with it for years before an Imperium crusade breaks and reabsorb them.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Gravalax operation had the genestealer CULT doing that, inciting a conflict between the Tau and the humans. Its arguable that it was an more elaborate twist on the "normal" disrupt defences by exploiting an already existing point of contention between two groups.
The "incite a war so that the Tau will be bogged down and leave a opening for the Nids" is a guess made by Amberly. Another possibility why the splinter group was diverted to Tau space is due to the nature of the genestealer call. Even if no cults had been established in Tau space, there is one now thanks to Gravalax.

It just shows that genestealers, which are part of the Nid forces, can and do engage in complicated espionage operations.

You forgot. The whole warlords bit mostly consisted of different warlords fighting against other warlords who they believed were betraying the Imperial vision.

The SW version of the Age of Apotasy.... sort of....

Yeah, except even in the Age of Apostasy, the Imperium still had enough of its shit together not to have its shit ruined by a bunch of ragtags.

The Imperium is the power that's rivalled by Chaos cults, infiltration by Chaos and genestealers and more, have governors that are subverted by the Tau to the extent that a governor could actively fuck up IG defences of the lines, before being stopped by the Cadian regiment in HellForge.
The Empire might had been toppled by the Rebellion, but they were the ones who routinely broke up rebel cells and organisations, etc etc etc. Looked at from that perspective, their internal security is infinitely more successful than the Imperium. The difference rests entirely in the political control of the Empire vs the Imperium. EVEN here, the technological differences play a role.

No it's not. Their internal security inexplicably FAILED when Palpatine croaked. While yes, the Imperium is mired with opposition groups, in-fighting, cults, mutants, aliens, heretics, and all manner of traitors and psychos, the Imperium has SURVIVED and has been able to effectively combat these enemies through the Inquisition, Arbites, Guard, Marines and whatnot. The Empire did NOT survive, the Rebellion destroyed it and the Imperial security apparatuses FAILED in protecting the Empire.

Looked at from that perspective, their internal security wasn't even good enough to maintain the Empire's cohesion after the death of Palpatine. Their internal security was NOT infinitely more successful than the Imperium because it FAILED at maintaining political control of the Empire - and isn't that what internal security is supposed to do?

The only one who is more infinitely successful is the one who has not been destroyed by a conspiracy or a rebellion or by internal incompetence, but who has continued to exist, survive and prosper for thousands of years. THAT is infinitely more successful. Whereas failed regime is infinitely LESS successful.

For one, the greater communications and FTL travel in the Empire allows for much more effective control of Imperial territories. Mon Calamari is the notable exception, but Imperial forces are able to routinely concentrate forces and re-occupy breakaway worlds. Breakaway and "defecting" Imperial forces are not largescale or remain viable as large combat units.

Except when the Emperor croaks, then the house of cards comes tumbling down like a sack of dominoes and the Rebellion slam dunks the touch down.

Even at the worst times of the Imperium, with fully half of its forces gone traitor, they were able to effectively mount a cohesive counter-attack and win back their territories. And after centuries, its security apparatus has managed to ensure the safety and integrity of the whole Imperium.

Even the defection of senior admirals with sizeable resources could be cauterised much faster than the Imperium equivalent, such as the TIE defender debacle. In the Imperium, such breakaway forces, especially at so senior levels could probably get away with it for years before an Imperium crusade breaks and reabsorb them.

But in all the centuries, the Imperium has managed to crush dissent and maintain its integrity by fighting off all these traitor influences, cults, and other subversives.

The Empire wasn't even able to last ONE century.We've seen, in canon, the EPIC FAILURE of the Empire. Jesus, for all its vaunted badassery, the Empire went down pretty bloody quick. It was a catastrophe!

[Bakustra]

So, Shroom, how long would the Imperium last if the GEoM died and it became public knowledge? (Not "ascended to warp-godhood", out-and-out died.) Ignore the likely effect of the Eye of Terror swelling up to swallow chunks of the Imperium and so on. For that matter, how long would the Imperium last if someone killed off the High Lords of Terra? You are taking two non-analogous situations and declaring them identical. Both states are dependent on their head of state to remain cohesive, yet you claim that the death of Emperor Palpsy was analogous to the Age of Apostasy, somehow. Just declaring, "well they've lasted for longer therefore they must be better" ignores the realities of the two situations to declare the IoM superior.

Simply declaring the internal security measures of the Empire worse based on a situation the Imperium has never encountered (oh, and large portions of the Empire remained intact socially and economically. It took about a decade or so for the Empire to be reduced to irrelevancy.) is a little disingenuous. Compare equivalent situations to correct for extraneous factors.

[NecronLord]

For that matter, how long would the Imperium last if someone killed off the High Lords of Terra?

This has happened. A Master of Assassins went mad and ordered the High Lords all terminated once. There was an epic battle to take him down. It lasted about six thousand years since then.

[Bakustra]

For that matter, how long would the Imperium last if someone killed off the High Lords of Terra?

This has happened. A Master of Assassins went mad and ordered the High Lords all terminated once. There was an epic battle to take him down. It lasted about six thousand years since then.

I did not know that. However, the Empire is more centralized than the IoM, so it makes sense that high-ranking Munitors, Inquisitor Lords, Ecclesiarchs, Lord Generals and so on could quickly rise to fill the empty positions to keep the IoM running smoothly.

[NecronLord]

I did not know that. However, the Empire is more centralized than the IoM, so it makes sense that high-ranking Munitors, Inquisitor Lords, Ecclesiarchs, Lord Generals and so on could quickly rise to fill the empty positions to keep the IoM running smoothly.

That is Shroomy's point. If the Emperor just croaked, but none of the systems that depended on him broke, then sure, there'd be mass rioting and loss of faith, but you can be sure the religion would just go into denial and most of the Imperium would get on with it. Like any number of religions whose leaders have died.

[Bakustra]

I did not know that. However, the Empire is more centralized than the IoM, so it makes sense that high-ranking Munitors, Inquisitor Lords, Ecclesiarchs, Lord Generals and so on could quickly rise to fill the empty positions to keep the IoM running smoothly.

That is Shroomy's point. If the Emperor just croaked, but none of the systems that depended on him broke, then sure, there'd be mass rioting and loss of faith, but you can be sure the religion would just go into denial and most of the Imperium would get on with it. Like any number of religions whose leaders have died.

I was actually going for the full consequences of the Emperor's death (no Astronomican, no more astropaths) without the problem of the Warp gobbling up chunks of realspace. However, if the Emperor died and both of those factors were handwaved away, then the Imperium would continue running, I suppose. Conceded.

[Srelex]

And even fractured, the Empire was still able to pose a threat to the NR. Besides, what has this got to do with anything? I highly doubt Palpatine would be killed by a bunch of genestealers of all things, and it's not like the rebels can do it effectively at this point either. Genestealers can be annoyance, but I certainly can't see them turning the whole tide of things.

[PainRack]

It just shows that genestealers, which are part of the Nid forces, can and do engage in complicated espionage operations.

Except it may very well not be as complicated as you believe it to be.

Yeah, except even in the Age of Apostasy, the Imperium still had enough of its shit together not to have its shit ruined by a bunch of ragtags.

The Rebellion gained political legitimacy with the conquest of Coruscant, to the extent that the political elements of the SW worlds joined it.

No it's not. Their internal security inexplicably FAILED when Palpatine croaked.

No, the lines of succession failed. Their internal security apparatus was divided, but even after the fall of Isard, the ISB and any other number of counter-intelligence agencies were still operating against the Rebellion. Indeed, Rebel intelligence was so helpless that the events of Dark Empire came as a complete surprise.

While yes, the Imperium is mired with opposition groups, in-fighting, cults, mutants, aliens, heretics, and all manner of traitors and psychos, the Imperium has SURVIVED and has been able to effectively combat these enemies through the Inquisition, Arbites, Guard, Marines and whatnot. The Empire did NOT survive, the Rebellion destroyed it and the Imperial security apparatuses FAILED in protecting the Empire.
Looked at from that perspective, their internal security wasn't even good enough to maintain the Empire's cohesion after the death of Palpatine. Their internal security was NOT infinitely more successful than the Imperium because it FAILED at maintaining political control of the Empire - and isn't that what internal security is supposed to do?

False. Age of Apotasy shows that the Imperium itself is just as vulnerable to a conflict of ideology.

The only one who is more infinitely successful is the one who has not been destroyed by a conspiracy or a rebellion or by internal incompetence, but who has continued to exist, survive and prosper for thousands of years. THAT is infinitely more successful. Whereas failed regime is infinitely LESS successful.

Purely because unlike the SWU, the technological, economic and political conditions that existed did not allow for a rapid revolution to actually take over the entire universe. Look at the Age of Apotasy. In this case, a rebellion was successful AGAINST the ruling Tyrant.
Thor and his sect of light was able to actually create a massive coalition of rebel worlds BEFORE the Imperium discovered the threat and responded. The loss of one major fleet element sent to suppress the world was enough to engulf the Imperium in a massive civil war, where Assasins turned on the major lords and secondary political structures and etc.
Note that in this situation, the Imperium was even MORE helpless than the Galactic Empire.
In the years building up to the violent confrontation that actually ended the era, the Imperium was engulfed in uprisings against the Imperium. At any point in time, rebel governors would rise, challenge the Imperium taxes, then crushed and executed by the Templars.
Once the warpstorms came about, the Imperium was became unable to exert political will over much of its territory. Vandire successfully led a coup against the Ecclesiarchy.

Of course, the crowing example is what happened afterwards. A single man, Sebastian Thor had his Confederacy of Light and his rebellion captured 80 worlds within a space of 3 months. He was able to amass sufficient political authority that the Space Marines and Tech Guards launched an attack on Earth, then a freak incident equivalent to the DS II happened. The Custodes finally found out what had been going on, went and converted the Brides of the Emperor and they executed Vandire.

Why is it that this isn't considered a massive failure of internal security then? The Imperium was actually unable to exert internal security duties, allowing for the rise of Chaos and Ork warbands behind cut off territories.

The GE was still able to maintain stability and prevent uprisings amongst its populace even after the Death Star debacle. What actually occured was a mix of two events.
Special Edition aside, at no point in the Galactic Empire history was the living of the people actually massively disrupted by uprisings or constant rebellion by the political officals involved. For all the talk of Rebellion, after the death of the Emperor, what actually occured was an armed civil war between respective political factions, one Rebel, different Imperial authorities and warlords. Prior to the Emperor Death, the Rebel Alliance was more of an insurgent movement struggling to survive, despite the exploits of "hero" units such as Rogue Squadron. The successful destruction of the Death Star bought them political support, but this was "hidden" and still did not prevent their actual cells from being wiped out.Their main political and armed units survived by constantly running away, note the infamous Battle of Hoth. The rebels discovered the probe droid,in response? Run away.

In this case, the relatively fractured nature of the Imperium, distance and speed of FTL/comns worked for it as divisive ideologies and revolutions were slower to spread. But it STILL fell.
The new Imperium immediately set in new religious and political practices and reverted to the ancient Emperor Worship afterall. Sounds familar? The Republic essentially reverted the political practices of the GR and revived the Jedi Order.

In actual practice, the Empire internal security apparatus was still functional,
1.counter-intelligence was still good
2. No uprisings.
3. Insurgencies and rebel cells were still being penetrated and stopped.

You're judging its failure solely by the fact that after the lack of a central political authority, the Republic became that central authority and that the Republic was able to maintain arms sufficient to defend itself against Imperial attacks.

Except when the Emperor croaks, then the house of cards comes tumbling down like a sack of dominoes and the Rebellion slam dunks the touch down.

Then define at what point in time the Empire actually died? At best, the GE was destroyed after Byss, when the majority of its heavy warships was caught in the destruction of the Galaxy Gun.

[NecronLord]

False. Age of Apotasy shows that the Imperium itself is just as vulnerable to a conflict of ideology.

The Age of Apostasy wasn't a conflict of ideology, it was an example of the guy at the top doing his damndest to be a dick. Much like Palpatine taking over the Republic. Except instead of falling to bits afterwards, it ushered in a new age of reform.

[PainRack]

The Age of Apostasy wasn't a conflict of ideology, it was an example of the guy at the top doing his damndest to be a dick. Much like Palpatine taking over the Republic. Except instead of falling to bits afterwards, it ushered in a new age of reform.

The New Republic created a new political structure based around the old Senate and other political insitutions shattered by the Empire. The New Republic did not actually capture or even liberate the majority of the worlds it held pre Dark Empire.
What mainly happened was after the withdrawal of huge elements of the Imperial Fleet to the Core, the remainding political structures were freed from central political rule and could choose to join another political authority, namely, the Republic. The warlords were engaged in trying to reassert political authority over their respective sectors in the name of the Empire, but frittered away resources fighting against other contenders for that authority.
Most importantly, the Republic capture of Coruscant conferred upon them the political legitimancy to claim the mantle of rule.

The Age of Apotasy was different, but in that sense, the rule of Vandire "fell to bits" just the same as the Empire post Endor. The reasons why people are arguing that the Imperium remained "intact" was that the new government held on to the old name, even as it restructured the Imperium political structures and rule. The Plague of Unbelief shows how the Imperium had difficulties asserting central rule at this time. The essential conversion and defection of "loyalist" worlds to the Confederacy of Light mirrors the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

[PainRack]

Short clarification: I'm not suggesting that the Imperium internal security apparatus is worse off than the Empire. I'm stating that the collapse of the Galactic Empire does not show the GE internal security apparatus is worse off than the Imperium.

As such, one should be examining how successful it was at combating various internal security threats. It was relatively successful at doing so even after post Endor. They key problems was that the Empire focused resources not on holding worlds after Endor but on asserting the respective leaders claims to legitimancy, or resisting Issard rule vs the Moff council or going independent against the Issard traitor and etc.
Even after the disbanding of the Senate, SW worlds still enjoy a certain amount of autonomy and localised rule(The Correllian Diktat). Worlds that dedicated their loyalty to the Alliance were also generally able to be protected against Imperial invasion due to various factors, including up to Palpatine dickery.

To claim that the Imperium survived while the Empire did not is to ignore the history of the Age of Apotasy. The ruling powers DID collapse and was taken over by another ruling class. The sole difference was that they laid claim to the same name, after making reforms to various political insitutions that would prevent another person from gaining the same measure of power Vandire did.

[NecronLord]

The Age of Apotasy was different, but in that sense, the rule of Vandire "fell to bits" just the same as the Empire post Endor. The reasons why people are arguing that the Imperium remained "intact" was that the new government held on to the old name, even as it restructured the Imperium political structures and rule. The Plague of Unbelief shows how the Imperium had difficulties asserting central rule at this time. The essential conversion and defection of "loyalist" worlds to the Confederacy of Light mirrors the Alliance to Restore the Republic.

You're misinterpreting. I'm comparing the Imperium to the Republic, pre and post Palpatine. The New Republic was ineffectual and stillborn, and a succession of states of total disarray followed ending up in that Kryat Empire this is much less successful than the various rebuilds the Imperium has had, for example after the Reign of Blood, or the Amalthian one.

[Bob the Gunslinger]

So, Shroom, how long would the Imperium last if the GEoM died and it became public knowledge? (Not "ascended to warp-godhood", out-and-out died.) Ignore the likely effect of the Eye of Terror swelling up to swallow chunks of the Imperium and so on. For that matter, how long would the Imperium last if someone killed off the High Lords of Terra?

Actually, that happened. In the 5th edition rulebook, it mentioned that the head of the Assassinorum killed off the High Lords of Terra to a man. It took three chapters of Space Marines to take him out.

Also, the Emperor of Man did die, and it is common knowledge. If you'll read the timeline, it took millennia for the Ecclesiarchy to gain the power it has now, and for the first few centuries after the Heresy the Emperor was not even widely recognized as divine. In fact, there was a 900 year period known as the Neo Terra Interregnum, or the time of the two Imperiums, where roughly half of the Imperium existed without any belief in the Emperor, loyalty to the High Lords of Terra or any faith in the Ecclesiarchy. The Imperium survived that period and has even strengthened itself considerably since then.

You are taking two non-analogous situations and declaring them identical. Both states are dependent on their head of state to remain cohesive, yet you claim that the death of Emperor Palpsy was analogous to the Age of Apostasy, somehow. Just declaring, "well they've lasted for longer therefore they must be better" ignores the realities of the two situations to declare the IoM superior.

You're right. They're not analogous. The Empire never faced anything like the Imperium has. If you seriously consider one Force-enhanced farmboy and a rag-tag group of rebels to be the equivalent of the Horus Heresy, or Abaddon the Despoiler, or Goge Vandire, or any of the other existential threats the Imperium has faced and weathered, then you are an idiot.

If you tossed the Rebellion into the Warhammer universe, (in terms of their relative abilities, numbers and competence), they would be squashed by the Imperium so hard it would barely make for a tolerable short story. The Tyrant of Badab had a larger fleet and more psychic powers than the entire Rebellion, including Luke and Corran Horn, and he literally is a footnote in the timeline of the Imperium (although he did get more play in the Chaos Codex).

Face it, the Imperium's many organizations tasked with defeating internal threats are far, far more competent than anything the Empire can bring to bear.

Simply declaring the internal security measures of the Empire worse based on a situation the Imperium has never encountered (oh, and large portions of the Empire remained intact socially and economically. It took about a decade or so for the Empire to be reduced to irrelevancy.) is a little disingenuous. Compare equivalent situations to correct for extraneous factors.

Do you really think there haven't been rebellions in Warhammer 40,000? The most direct and comparable event in the WH40k universe to the Rebellion is the Horus Heresy. Both Endor and the Battle with Horus reduced both leaders to ghosts, fond memories and the institutions they left behind, but where the Empire shattered and faded within a century the Imperium has flourished for 10,000 years.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Except it may very well not be as complicated as you believe it to be.

The Genestealers managed to in one the Caiphas Cain books, to replace the governor of an Imperial Planet and run undetected for a while. I hardly think that is particularly "not complicated".

[Darth Hoth]

No it's not. Their internal security inexplicably FAILED when Palpatine croaked. While yes, the Imperium is mired with opposition groups, in-fighting, cults, mutants, aliens, heretics, and all manner of traitors and psychos, the Imperium has SURVIVED and has been able to effectively combat these enemies through the Inquisition, Arbites, Guard, Marines and whatnot. The Empire did NOT survive, the Rebellion destroyed it and the Imperial security apparatuses FAILED in protecting the Empire.

Looked at from that perspective, their internal security wasn't even good enough to maintain the Empire's cohesion after the death of Palpatine. Their internal security was NOT infinitely more successful than the Imperium because it FAILED at maintaining political control of the Empire - and isn't that what internal security is supposed to do?

The only one who is more infinitely successful is the one who has not been destroyed by a conspiracy or a rebellion or by internal incompetence, but who has continued to exist, survive and prosper for thousands of years. THAT is infinitely more successful. Whereas failed regime is infinitely LESS successful.

Neglecting, of course, to mention that Palpatine maintained control of the higher-ranking elements of the Empire from Byss and ordered the security and intelligence agencies to purposely wreck the Empire while he was gone. Per the DESB he oversaw the entire Thrawn debacle and even ordered his assassination when it appeared his effort to reunite the Empire was becoming too successful. Is it a catastrophic failure when they successfully carry out the order to destroy the state? They fulfilled their political objectives. Which were not necessarily rational, but they did their work well.

Except when the Emperor croaks, then the house of cards comes tumbling down like a sack of dominoes and the Rebellion slam dunks the touch down.

Even at the worst times of the Imperium, with fully half of its forces gone traitor, they were able to effectively mount a cohesive counter-attack and win back their territories.

Sounds like Operation SHADOWHAND, where the reborn Palpatine reunited the galaxy after Thrawn's death. At that point the Empire had been reduced to warlords controlling roughly a fourth of the galaxy's worlds, and most of those in the Outer Rim.

[Darth Hoth]

And a couple more as I recall it, if we include every agency that has intelligence/security-related functions: Secret Order of the Emperor, the semi-autonomous Ubiqtorate and so forth . . . and as you noted, various individual powerbrokers like Jerec or Vader had their own informal spy rings and networks as well. My point of contention was that each of these agencies, or the major ones at least, are in and of themselves full-fledged formal galactic commands that control operations and receive/send information across the whole galaxy. With the redundancy there is bound to be inefficiency, but each of these agencies is more coherent than (I perceived) the Inquisition (to be).

First, the Ubiqtorate is the head of Imperial Intelligence. and Rival to the ISB (which itself was part of COMPNOR). Second, I still don't see what the hell your point is. The fact they are galaxy spanning in and of itself says nothing about their cohesion or efficiency. The Inquisition is "galaxy spanning" as well, after all. You are, in essence, making an entirely subjective assessment of the two from incomplete information.

First, I seem to recall that the Ubiq had its own quasi-autonomous apparatus that worked outside Intelligence proper (somewhat like the Inquisitorius is supposedly connected to Intelligence somehow, yet autonomous). But that point is unimportant, so I will not argue either way. Second, my point is efficiency within the agency. A clear hierarchy throughout the galaxy will result in much more rapid responses to troubles, as well as (presumably) more co-ordination, than a looser system will. Since you consider "clear hierarchy" a buzzword I will restate the example I gave in my last post, in pointing out that in Imperial Intelligence, orders can routinely pass directly from galaxywide command on Coruscant/Imperial Center down through channels and to individual System Cells on single planets, which can also send information higher up through the Sector Plexus (ref: the Imperial Sourcebook). Does the Inquisition have anything comparable?

Ministorum is the same thing as Ecclesiarchy, right? I will not even attempt to pretend that I know 40k nearly as well as you or Necron, but I always perceived them to be basically the Mediaeval Roman Catholic Church with extra Grimdark. COMPNOR in the Empire is a social-cultural movement that pervades Imperial society with everything from economic development funds for the Rim to education efforts to youth groups to media control and what have you, in addition to spies/informers, Waffen-SS equivalents and other unsavoury stuff (The Imperial Sourcebook is the prime source on them). Basically they are the ISB's catch-all analogue for the various "populist" and cultural Nazi organisations in real life (Kraft durch Freude, Hitler Youth, SA/SS and what have you). Does the Ministorum do all that?

You miss the point apparently. The whole "religion/not religion" angle is irrelevant. The point is is that COMNPOR (and organizations like it) were designed to indocrtinate populations into complete and fanatical loyalty/adoration of Palpatine, if not outright worship (He was actually worshipped as I recall, almost as a godlike being some places, and of course its well known that he actually intended to 'ascend' to god hood later on in his insanity) - pretty much the same as the Ecclesiarchy/Ministorum (yes they are the same.) That it may not always take isn't quite relevant either, since there are people in the Imperium who either only pay token lip service to the religion (like the AdMech), or may even ignore it or be against it entirely (elements of the Inquisition, the Space Marine chapters and their worlds do not always see the GEoM as a literal god, and there are vast swathes of hive worlds that do not see the light of the Emperor, or see its worshippers as little more than lunatic fanatics - ie the REdemptionists of the Underhives)

You apparently missed my point. Which was, is the Ministerium comparable in scope to an organisation that actively attempts (albeit is not always successful) to pervade every portion of society? COMPNOR has formal agencies for working with science, commerce, education, justice, and so forth, in addition to the youth groups/SA/SS/Gestapo functions. I know that the Church is powerful, but in the material that I am familiar with it does not appear to cover all those functions.

The Empire is by its definition a federal state, which has real-time communications across the galaxy as fairly standard (if expensive for a private citizen) measures. Federal agencies are coherent throughout, with orders going from the Coruscant hierarchy down to individual System Cells in Intelligence, for example, even if the agencies themselves compete between them. The Imperium is hampered by its worse communications and the fractitious nature of its agencies internally, as well as by the fact that it is essentially feudal rather than federal; planets are generally left alone as long as they pay their taxes and do not overtly worship Chaos/Genestealers/what have you, and the Inquisition at least seems more loosely/informally organised than the comparable Imperial agencies.[/

Which still fails to prove anything meaningful. I can throw around alot of fancy words uselessly too. How does this counter the fact that the Empire was also plagued by substantial corruption, infighting, and so on? to say nothing that "real time" communications can be a double edged sword int hat regard (it can benefit the infighting as much as it can benefit coordination or centralization.) And again, I point out, the Empire has proven that its agencies also have a "fractious nature" (political and other infighting within organizations and between organizations) as well, so this is harldy something you can pin solely on the Imperium (although its obvious you are trying.) About the only point thus far you have made is in communications, but I've never denied that the GE had a massive advantage in the Holonet (hobbled as it was by Palpy.)

Wait, what are the examples of major Imperial infighting within particular organisations? Between rivals such as Intelligence and the ISB, yes, but intra-agency?

Imperial infighting and corruption is typically on the order of turf wars and budgetary competition (the authors of the ISB fairly obviously used Nazi Germany as their model), while in the Imperium there are literal wide-ranging conspiracies in the Inquisition against the Inquisition and the Imperium itself (such as the Hydra from Draco) and whole planets or even larger groups can defect without being noticed for some time. While the Empire has suffered from some conspiracies, they were typically nipped in the bud (such as the Trachta Circle on Coruscant, which was basically Palpatine's plaything from the start) and more importantly, and generally (from what I can determine, at least) they had little support in the intelligence/security apparatus.

And yes, the Inquisition is informal, but the Inquisition work more in the manner of the Jedi Order or Palpatine's Jedi Order analogues rather than as a purely "intelligence" agency by their own. Inquisitors have the power to basically do whatever the fuck they need to do ensure the Imperium survives and/or flourishes. That the organization has different factions is not a hinderance to this (if anything its probably an asset, since it prevents someone from destroying the Imperium in one fell swoop a'la Horus.) I can also point out that the GEoM serves essentially the same role as Palpatine - a massively powerful and supernatrually prescient individual who uses his powers to guide, manipulate or otherwise control his empire to his desired ends. The GEoM isn't just sitting pretty on the golden throne, fighting chaos, soul binding astorpaths, and powering the Astronomican after all.

My point is that the Empire has its own Inquisition equivalents (Inquisitorius, Prophets of the Dark Side, Secret Order of the Emperor, Emperor's Hands and what have you) while also having ordinary, non-magical, formally organised intelligence and security agencies with effective command and control down to the level of individual planets, with permanent apparatuses in place for fact-sifting and surveillance. As far as I am aware, the Inquisition basically is the Imperium's sole "formal" intelligence and security service on the galactic scale (perhaps one would count the Assassinorum also). Not to say that the agencies (e.g., AdMech) and powerful individuals do not have their own networks, but these would (as far as I can gather) not be of the same scale.

Jerec, Vader and comparable individuals are given a fairly free hand, but they do not typically do the groundwork of the intelligence gathering and security functions. I may be terribly off, but as I understand it the Inquisition is the primary intelligence/security agency of the Imperium that operates on the galactic scale, and they have no direct analogues to the ISB, Intelligence, Inquisitorius and other formally organised galaxywide intel networks and security agencies with strict chains of command.

As NL points out, Inquisitors don't always do that shit themselves. The Eisenhorn novels demonstrate this (Eisenhorn likes to do alot of his own groundwork, but others like Commodus Voke use their authority and inquistorial status to get others to do it for them. The Dark Heresy novels show this as well.) And as I pointed out, the Inquisitors DO have a chain of command. Like other organizations of the Imperium, they operate at Planetary, subsector/sector levels, Segmentum levels and even galactic.

Conceded, then. Is this organisation also functional in practice, though? Can the Grand High Lord Imperial Inquisitor (or whatever) on Terra give orders to operatives on individual planets rapidly and reliably if he needs to, as Imperial Intelligence can?

And the GE has a number of analogues to this (many of them Force Sensitive - the roles of the Prohpets of the Dark Side/SEcret Order of the Empire, the Hands and other Organs, etc.), despite your constant flogging of words like "strict chain of command" and "galaxywide intel" as if buzzwords mean anything.

Would you please tell me how effective control of operations galaxywide is a "buzzword"? It denotes a fairly simple concept, and one that makes a fair bit of difference if one has it or does not. And yes, I have never denied that the Empire has Inquisition-like agencies. I have contended that they do not form the backbone of the Imperial security/intelligence effort, which is run by formal military and police agencies; rather, they are specialist groups that work on cases requiring their particular attention.

And if that isnt enough evidence that you haven't given this any real thought, have you considered the fact that the GE operates in a relatively stable, peaceful enviroment and has not really been subjected to chaos or a wartime enviroment? The closest would be the post Endor period with Palpy gone, but that would hardly match your ideal. The Imperium operates under constant conflict from myriad threats, often simultaneously (Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, etc.) which is naturally going to lead to a degradation of performance. The most "ideal" situation you could think of would be the Great Crusade era. If you're going to do an analysis, at least make an effort to do it between as directly comparable examples as you can.

I may be terribly mistaken, here, but would not a wartime security effort actually be easier to maintain in at least some ways, given that you can then clamp down harder on travel, demand more rigorous security, and so forth? In the peacetime Empire travel is virtually free (on the low-security worlds, at least) and interstellar communications are fairly easily available. Dirt-world farmers have enough capital to buy starships. Maintaining security in a galaxy of such rapid communications should logically be more difficult than in the Imperium, where interstellar travel is comparatively rare.

[Darth Hoth]

Or other Imperium of Man agencies, too. The Inquisiton operates independantly because of comms speed and reliablility, nothing else.

[ . . . ]

There are other intelligence agencies in the Imperium, largely planet-sector based, reporting to the administratum. The Inquisition is a level above. They have thousands of agents per Inquisitor. some of whom are field agents and spies. Dark Heresy is 'play the footsloggers who work for the Inquisitors.'

There are? Interesting. Where can I read up on them; is that also in the Dark Hersy books?

Are they generally limited to planets/sectors, or can they pass information higher up the chain?

[Imperial Overlord]

There are? Interesting. Where can I read up on them; is that also in the Dark Hersy books?

Are they generally limited to planets/sectors, or can they pass information higher up the chain?

They are detailed, to some extent in Dark Heresy. The agents that belonging to Imperium wide organizations like the Administratum or the Adeptus Mechanicus are part of Imperium wide networks. Imperial Governors will have their own planet wide organizations, of course. Lord Sector Hax, ruler of the Calixus Sector, is notoriously paranoid and has multiple agencies (including the infamous Chaliced Commissariat) operating throughout the sector.

[Shroom Man 777]

Neglecting, of course, to mention that Palpatine maintained control of the higher-ranking elements of the Empire from Byss and ordered the security and intelligence agencies to purposely wreck the Empire while he was gone. Per the DESB he oversaw the entire Thrawn debacle and even ordered his assassination when it appeared his effort to reunite the Empire was becoming too successful. Is it a catastrophic failure when they successfully carry out the order to destroy the state? They fulfilled their political objectives. Which were not necessarily rational, but they did their work well.

That's ridiculous! Why the hell would Palpatine want to destroy his state? Well, whatever.

My knowledge on deeper 40k stuff, as well as SW, is pretty trivial. For example, I know shit about the Age of Apostasy and the stuff in the EU. So I back down from this argument comparing the various apparatuses of the IoM and the GE.

[Serafina]

That's ridiculous! Why the hell would Palpatine want to destroy his state? Well, whatever.

Propably to show that is was HIS state and that the galaxy NEEDED him.
Hey, it even makes sense - if you (as an imperial) see that everything breaks down without the Emperor, would you dare to try and overthrow him, if way smartet people like you could not hold the Empire together?

My knowledge on deeper 40k stuff, as well as SW, is pretty trivial. For example, I know shit about the Age of Apostasy and the stuff in the EU. So I back down from this argument comparing the various apparatuses of the IoM and the GE.

40K does not really have an EU in the same sense as SW.

[Shroom Man 777]

I was talking about my lack of knowledge in deeper 40k lore like the Age of Apostasy, as well as my lack of exposure to the Star Wars EU.

God, Palpatine is a megalomaniac. He burns half the galaxy just to make himself look better. What an ass.

[Srelex]

I was talking about my lack of knowledge in deeper 40k lore like the Age of Apostasy, as well as my lack of exposure to the Star Wars EU.

God, Palpatine is a megalomaniac. He burns half the galaxy just to make himself look better. What an ass.

Hey, it's not like such behaviour would exactly be out of place in 40k.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was talking about my lack of knowledge in deeper 40k lore like the Age of Apostasy, as well as my lack of exposure to the Star Wars EU.

God, Palpatine is a megalomaniac. He burns half the galaxy just to make himself look better. What an ass.

Hey, it's not like such behaviour would exactly be out of place in 40k.

The difference would be the redundancy that exists within the Imperium, and also, there's always the Space Marines who remain inviolately loyal to the EMperor, except the sporadic Chaos corruption.