SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Typhonis 1]

Not to mention How does a Hummer Blitz get us INTO Mordor? they`re are the Towers of the Teeth to contend with and all of the passes into Mordor are guardeed even Sheolbs pass

[Patrick Ogaard]

My armour suggestion was actually an adaptation of modern materials for a rather nice brigande style armour.....
Using a mix of kevlar (or the spectra fibreglass weave I recall from someplace), high impact plastics and padding a very effective armour beyond the capabilities of what we could pick up locally can be made.....
the spectra-fibreglass mix has incredible cut resistance, and the high inpact plastics can deal very well with stabs, add the padding to help with impacts and you have excelent armour for use against melee armed foes....

I still wouldnt take it against bodkin arrows, but against swords, spears and axes it would provide far better protection than a standard bullet proof vest or comporable local armour (in terms of weight and mobility).

The problem is repairing it, unfortunately.

A compromise might be the following:
Since the base includes a "massive supply" of body armor, and that likely as not means primarily advanced flak jackets and plate inserts for the same.

A coat of lightweight mail worn over that would be quite adequate protection against most muscle-powered weapons without becoming too heavy. The major requirement would be for the drawing of steel wire. The wire can then be either snipped and turned into individual rings to be linked, or the wire can be woven into steel fabric. This is where it would be useful to cannibalize one of the diesel-powered hummers: with suitable gearing to improve torque, the hummer up on blocks could draw hundreds of meters of wire in short order.

An alternative would be to put all the parts into one outfit: an outer layer of locally procured leather, possibly with a camo cover, followed by a layer of interwoven steel wire, that followed by the material of the flak jacket itself. If one produces the torso armor like a double-breasted jacket (think old American police uniform jackets), the optional plate inserts could be placed in pockets normally covered by that double breast. Without the flak jacket inside one could simply back the layer of steel wire with a further layer of leather, possibly backed by field jacket liners for comfort.

Even a wrecked hummer would be a hugely valuable source of raw materials. Just the springs of the suspension would make dwarf swordsmiths drool into their beards: real spring steel.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

one I used Zepplin to describe a powered airship with a frame be it large or small and two what kind of accuracy do you need to drop napalm on Orcs marching along? Since we are going to be "Magically" transported to ME we could ask that those with major medical problems ,like Yosimite Bear and his need for insulin , be cured before we arrive.

We must assume that their medical problems won't be cured, since it isn't specified. Considering our need to conserve manpower and simple humanity, obtaining an elvish healer and hopefully good relations with some group of elves would be ideal early on, then.

Perhaps our knowledge can convince them to take a unified stand against Sauron early on: Especially if they realize that the alternative is our effectively starting the industrial revolution in the ME, which they would probably philosophically find unappealing.

As for Zeps and accuracy, well, it depends on if they break ranks or not. I suppose scattering them could be useful in a tactical situation. A small airship might be useful for recon but we'd have to think long and hard about risking the expenditure of resources for even that.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Hmmm, i don't recall gas masks in the original scenerio, are they something you gonna fashion MacGyver-style?

I seriously doubt that the Nazgul black breath has a greater range than an assault rifle, so this is a moot point. I would be far more terrified of an A-10 warthog than some idiot with a knife coming out of the clouds on a dragon. Besides, I would like to hear an explanation of how Aragorn was able to attack several of these clowns with a sword if they're so dangerous.

The Nazgul are obviously extremely dangerous in their own cultural and technological context. Faced with reasonably modern military and paramilitary technology and people from a comparatively ruthless and cynical culture like our own, the Nazgul's effectiveness should approach zero except insofar as it could drive hordes of orcs to charge and saturate the defenses.

Someone bring a few reels of classic slasher/horror movies, rig a suitable projector, set up linen sheets, and show that stuff to the orcs and uruk-hai and their Nazgul general. Then get on the bullhorn:

"We watch this stuff for fun and relaxation, and laugh about it!"

[Patrick Ogaard]

Other possible portable drive-in movies would be:

Saving Private Ryan
Dr. Strangelove
Star Wars (what do they know about movies as fiction?)
Stalingrad

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It might not be necessary to use blackpowder in the taskforce's own weapons. Blackpowder is better used in the weapons of local auxiliaries and for demolitions (plus fougasses near the base walls and wall-mounted falconets to protect the base). The facility is supposed to have a well-stocked medical lab and a fully functional chemistry lab with supplies.

Don't forget the mortars, which according to that series of articles I posted, we can make as drop-fire, and nearly as good as modern ones - They mostly use blackpowder as it is. (Speaking of the mortars, what sorts of mortars should we produce, and how heavy?)

Interesting idea for building light guns specifically for the base... Should we perhaps attempt a few heavy cannon in case someone tries to besiege us? They could also serve as models, then, for our allies - And later on, as siege cannon. Of course, we would be limited by our lathes in our maximum size for artillery, at least at first. It might be better to stick with the protection of mortars and lighter pieces to get them finished and gain the security and usefulness thereof before turning to such augmenting weaponry.

Given that set of labs and the library full of "pertinent books," it should be possible to produce nitrocellulose. A good chemist (AKA one who doesn't blow him or herself up) with access to the library, lab and supplies should be able to produce nitrocellulose of the required purity and composition. Then someone has to come up with a way of producing safe primer explosives and one of the gun afficionado handloaders in the taskforce will have to come up with a way of duplicating a Boxer centerfire priming cartridge. With that, and the inevitable bullet molds that one or more of those gun bunnies will bring along, making replacement munitions should be entirely workable.

The one big problem with blackpowder weapons is that the material produces serious fouling in the weapon very quickly, and that fouling is mildly corrosive. Practically all the assault and battle rifles that have been listed so far, including the M14, tap part of the propellant gas to power the reloading cycle of the weapon. That means that even a short firefight would quickly foul one of those semiautomatic weapons into temporary uselessness.

Exactly, which is why I'm halfway tempted to think we should reconsider the Enfield. However, if you think we can produce more ammunition, then the M-14 seems pretty much a lock.

[Frank Hipper]

You could bypass the need for lathes limiting the size of artillery by producing wrought iron cannon. It takes a great deal of blacksmith skill, but they can be made absolutely huge.
Sorry to but in after 450+ posts, but...

[weemadando]

You could bypass the need for lathes limiting the size of artillery by producing wrought iron cannon. It takes a great deal of blacksmith skill, but they can be made absolutely huge.
Sorry to but in after 450+ posts, but... :oops:

Lathes are fairly easily fabricated from basic materials. They aren't going to be as accurate as their modern day equivalent, but I'm guessing that we can get them to a mid 1800's tech level.

[NecronLord]

We might need a monster size can of bug spray (Shelob)

PS. someone tell me Mordor doesn't have any proper dragons (smaug type) at this stage....

[Admiral Valdemar]

Hmmm, i don't recall gas masks in the original scenerio, are they something you gonna fashion MacGyver-style?

I seriously doubt that the Nazgul black breath has a greater range than an assault rifle, so this is a moot point. I would be far more terrified of an A-10 warthog than some idiot with a knife coming out of the clouds on a dragon. Besides, I would like to hear an explanation of how Aragorn was able to attack several of these clowns with a sword if they're so dangerous.

The Nazgul are obviously extremely dangerous in their own cultural and technological context. Faced with reasonably modern military and paramilitary technology and people from a comparatively ruthless and cynical culture like our own, the Nazgul's effectiveness should approach zero except insofar as it could drive hordes of orcs to charge and saturate the defenses.

Someone bring a few reels of classic slasher/horror movies, rig a suitable projector, set up linen sheets, and show that stuff to the orcs and uruk-hai and their Nazgul general. Then get on the bullhorn:

"We watch this stuff for fun and relaxation, and laugh about it!"

It would be nice to call in an A-10 napalm strike at that point.

"Here, have a toast to us!"

[The Duchess of Zeon]

We might need a monster size can of bug spray (Shelob)

PS. someone tell me Mordor doesn't have any proper dragons (smaug type) at this stage....

160mm mortars would be able to deal with one, I should I think - and it might be interesting to see how vulnerable they are to Phosgene. That's the upper limit on mortar size we'd need to think about going, and those would be towed - but they could serve as a pretty effective artillery early on.

We could perhaps use 60mm or 80mm mortars as our man-portables. Hrmm. Those might be able to do a number on some fairly large critters for that matter.

I wouldn't worry about Shelob - If a sword could hurt her, then explosives shall as well.

[Cpt_Frank]

However, if you think we can produce more ammunition, then the M-14 seems pretty much a lock.

Why the M-14? It's outdated and heavy.
We should take AK-101 as .223 assault rifle and reserve the 7.62 NATO for the light machine guns.

As for bolt-action rifles, I'd say Mauser M-98k. (partially because I have some experience with them )
When they initially built up their army the Israelis received a number of German 98k s and rechambered them to 7.62x51 so we'd also have ammo for them and unlike self-loading guns they could actually be used with blackpowder if needed.

With that, and the inevitable bullet molds that one or more of those gun bunnies will bring along, making replacement munitions should be entirely workable.

One of my friends who is a huge gun nut pocesses a machine with which you can reload spent shells. Should I bring it along?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

One of my friends who is a huge gun nut pocesses a machine with which you can reload spent shells. Should I bring it along?

If it could be packed, which I doubt.

As for the M-14: Precisely because it has some weight to it - Though not to much, only a kilogram more than the original M-16s - and because of its length, giving more reach to the bayonet, along with the wooden furniture.

It's rugged, reliable, and ready for rough handling or melee combat.

The Spanish Mausers were chambered for 7.62 NATO and are considered good guns, but I would like to have that rate of fire.

[Crayz9000]

Let's see... napalm as used by the US Military is roughly 46 parts polystyrene, 33 parts gasoline and 21 parts benzene. But, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't napalm originally made using palm oil? And if so, would it be possible for us to produce a primitive form of it?

[Balrog]

Besides, I would like to hear an explanation of how Aragorn was able to attack several of these clowns with a sword if they're so dangerous.

Aragorn never really drove them off, the Pale King stabbed Frodo with a evil blade that would subdue Frodo to their will. To them, their mission was complete, as they thought the Ring could go no further, and soon they'd have Frodo under their control. No reason to get your hands unnecissarily dirty.

[Patrick Ogaard]

For purely defensive use, in fixed installations, even batteries of metal-strapped wooden tubes should work as primitive mortars. After all, the mortars will not be competing with enemy mortars and therefore won't need as much range. If at all possible, however, metal tubes should be used. It might be necessary to bootstrap up to the necessary lathe capacity. Tiny, hole-in-the-wall metal shops with a tabletop metal lathe can produce mortars and mortar shells in the real world in places like Sri Lanka, so it's obviously not impossible. One should simply overengineer everything considerably in order to account for questionable materials, skills and quality control.

Heavy mortars of 100 mm or more are probably just not worth the effort. Ideally, an 81mm medium mortar and a 50-60mm light mortar should be developed. All a mortar ultimately has to be is a tube that is closed at one end, the closed end being fitted with a stout firing pin. Of course, if one is going to use gas warfare, then big mortars of 120mm or more will be a must.

If all else should fail, dwarfs or skilled human bronze casters should be able to produce a miniature cast bronze cannon capable of being used as a mortar. The 60mm bronze model might even be portable.

Once again, the hummers might come to the rescue. Unneeded body panels, as well as non-recyclable parts of the inevitable wrecked vehicles can be used as raw materials. The tubes of mufflers, exhaust systems and, for those vehicles that have them, fording kits, could be fitted with additional welded-on straps and a securely welded on base plate. (Initial testing should be done from a safe distance.) Then one just has to fabricate suitable mortar bombs.

If accuracy is not a major issue, such as in mass battles, then the bombs could be made as follows:
A simple metal can or extremely stout little wooden barrel is filled with a suitable explosive. At the front is fitted a simple impact detonator that one could manufacture from a single shotgun cartridge (minus shot), a nail, a stout spring and some bits of wood and metal. The other end is fitted with a hollow, finned tube, into the base of which is fitted one of the unused .40 S&W cartridges (minus bullet) set in another fusing mechanism. The rest of the tube's interior is filled with a modest amount of gunpowder and a good bit of air.

A metal bipod might prove costly and difficult to machine for the medium mortar, and a medium mortar has enough recoil that it needs a base plate to keep its barrel from digging itself immovably into the ground. That means that it might be more practical to initially go for stout frames of timber to mount the tube in. Such frames could be set up on walls for defense, on the cargo bed of a hummer for offense, or even fitted with wheels and an axle to serve as towed field artillery.

The light mortar needs none of that. Simply holding the mortar with one hand to aim it, with the small plate on the breech end of the mortar set on solid ground, is enough.

Mortars are cheap and simple weapons, as long as you don't blow yourself up making or using them, and laws against civilian use of military weapons don't apply in alternate realities.


The weapons of the main base should themselves be excellent protection against any attempt to lay siege to the base. A .50-caliber M2HB Browning heavy machine gun has an effective (not maximum) range of 1400 meters (though the exact figure does change based on the source used) and has a rate of fire of 400 to 500 rounds per minute. A CIS 40-AGL automatic grenade launcher (used because I don't have the stats on a Mk. 19 available right now) has a maximum range of 2,200 meters and fires at a rate of 350 rounds per minute, and the projectiles are normally high explosive fragmentation grenades. The effective sustained rates of fire of the weapons will be lower, to avoid overheating, but any enemy getting within a mile of the base should get chopped to pieces in short order. The most insanely generous estimates of the ranges of the very best models of Roman torsion catapults puts their range at 800 meters (and realistically at no more than 420 meters), so the enemy simply has no hope of setting up at a comfortable range. Extensive building of trenches and earthworks to get close to the base under cover would be the only way for orcs to close the range, though an enormous (as in, tens and tens of thousands) orc wave attack might work if accompanied by simultaneous attacks by battalions of uruk-hai, olog-hai, assorted conventional trolls, and anything else available. (At this point, Lord Wong deploys the mustard gas.)

Heavy cannon are probably not worth the effort. Their ranges will not be that impressive compared to the ranges of mortars. The mortars, even if they manage only half the ranges of their real world counterparts, have insanely long ranges by Middle Earth standards. An old (and obsolete) British 2 inch (50 mm) mortar has an effective range just over 400 meters, while the similarly old and obsolete US M1 medium mortar (81mm) has an effective range of about 2,300 meters. Thus, even if the taskforce produces the worst possible bargain basement mortars, a light mortar should be able to reach 200 meters or more, and a medium mortar should be able to fire out to ranges of 1 kilometer or more.

Where a grand trebuchet, or a big muzzleloader cannon of the sort the taskforce might be able to fabricate, would have rates of fire measured in shots per day, the taskforce could deploy a dozen or more mortars with rates of fire measured in rounds per minute. If the medium mortar bombs are fitted with crude shaped charges, then a battery of a dozen medium mortars on the backs of hummers should be able to reduce a medieval-style castle to a medieval-style ruin in the space of less than an hour. That would leave enough time to drive to the next castle, ruin it, and return to a secure base camp two days' ride away on a fast horse.

Miniature cannon, from oversized shotguns like the classic swivel gun familiar from countless pirate movies, to actual small cannon like the falconet (firing a ball of up to 1.3 kilograms), would be useful to break up massed enemy formations or to kill attacking trolls. This obviously only applies to outlying bases and the fortresses of allies.

For the perfect Shelob-killers, though, we need large shaped charges on sticks. A torsion or hummer-spring ballista would work just fine. Instead of firing a javelin-sized dart, fire a javelin-sized shaft tipped with a large shaped charge warhead. Alternately, fire the thing from a falconet. The charge itself does not have to fit in the cannon barrel.

I would like to assume that a volley of these charges should be enough to annoy even Shelob the Great.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I failed to think outside the box.

Recoilless guns.

That's exactly what the taskforce should develop if it turns out its needs heavy, direct firepower.

Producing a recoilless gun should be well within the abilities of the taskforce. The gun tubes do not have to be as strong-walled as those of conventional guns, and recoil becomes a very minor consideration. These weapons are wasteful of propellant, and they absolutely need something like a shaped charge charge warhead to be effective. If a reliable fuzing system can be designed, the fabrication of a shaped charge as such is not a real engineering problem. Just never stand in the danger zone behind the gun. One reasonably strong taskforce grunt should be able to fire the medium-caliber model from the shoulder.

What all of the above means is that recoilless guns are the ideal choice for direct fire attacks. Strategic reinforcing of the tube would allow the use of the same tubes as produced for the mortars. The medium and heavy mortar models would be the best choices.

A forward firebase should be almost impregnable for a time if equipped with mortar pits, recoilless rifles, and a few falconets and swivel guns. Simple, flimsy barricades, Roman-style ground defenses (stimulus, lily, interlaced and sharpened brushwood, caltrops), and the innovation of the sandbag and foxhole for defense should make all the difference. Attacking troops have to make their way through the barricades and slowly slog through massive antipersonnel fire. Enemy troops farther out will be picked apart by the recoilless rifles and falconets, not to mention a constant hail of mortar fire.

[Durandal]

Besides, I would like to hear an explanation of how Aragorn was able to attack several of these clowns with a sword if they're so dangerous.

Aragorn never really drove them off, the Pale King stabbed Frodo with a evil blade that would subdue Frodo to their will. To them, their mission was complete, as they thought the Ring could go no further, and soon they'd have Frodo under their control. No reason to get your hands unnecissarily dirty.

You missed the point. Aragorn wasn't afraid of them. He kicked their asses. He had a sword. We have assault rifles.

[Balrog]

Yes, recoilless guns should be pretty easy to slap together and take down some of the larger beasts easily.

Maybe throw a few on the Humvees for mobile heavy fire.

[Sea Skimmer]

Not to mention How does a Hummer Blitz get us INTO Mordor? they`re are the Towers of the Teeth to contend with and all of the passes into Mordor are guardeed even Sheolbs pass

The main gate would be a pain. While motar fire might clear the walls and gas would take care of any one behind them with sufficent fire, were not going to knock any holes in them. Thats where a direct fire cannon would be of use, or better yet 10 of them guarded by a few thousand recruits and some light field works. A massed charge out of Mordor while assaulting the gate could simply overrun us with shear weight of numbers.

Best bet is to shell the walls from time to time or slowly reduce them, while a well armed party enters via the secret passage.

Though if we had sufficent fuel and transport it might be possibul to just drive around the end of the Ash mountains and back. But that could easily be a trip 1000 miles out of the way over unknown terrian.

[Durandal]

That's also where a Zeppelin could come in handy. Simply hover it over the walls and drop charges on them, or go over Mount Doom and drop the giant block of steel containing the One Ring into the fire pit.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Yes, recoilless guns should be pretty easy to slap together and take down some of the larger beasts easily.

Maybe throw a few on the Humvees for mobile heavy fire.

No question about it, really.

Since there seems to be a general consensus that chemical warfare will be used, which means heavy mortars, the heavy mortar tubes could be used as the base for a heavy recoilless gun. That would be impractical to manpack, but if one can fabricate a recoilless gun, fabricating a post mount for it and mounting that in the bed of a Humvee should be a trivial challenge.

Thus, envision a dozen Humvees outfitted with these guns, another dozen with medium mortars, and a further dozen moving gear, personnel, fuel and extra ammunition.

Since the military types in the taskforce should all have brought a light machine gun (SAW) or a GPMG like the M60 on their alternate reality jaunt, several of the support Humvees should have post-mounted automatic weapons.

Add in a few portable recoilless guns (the 81mm models) and you've got a force that no reasonably sized army of orcs and trolls should be able to engage in combat.

Which brings up an important question: how far does the fear aura of the Watchers protecting that direct access to Mordor extend? It might be entirely possible to physically smash the carvings to pieces with a sustained barrage at long range.

[Durandal]

Which brings up an important question: how far does the fear aura of the Watchers protecting that direct access to Mordor extend? It might be entirely possible to physically smash the carvings to pieces with a sustained barrage at long range.

Not very far, by all appearances. Frodo was about ready to jump through the Black Gate from only a few hundred meters away.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Not to mention How does a Hummer Blitz get us INTO Mordor? they`re are the Towers of the Teeth to contend with and all of the passes into Mordor are guardeed even Sheolbs pass

The main gate would be a pain. While motar fire might clear the walls and gas would take care of any one behind them with sufficent fire, were not going to knock any holes in them. Thats where a direct fire cannon would be of use, or better yet 10 of them guarded by a few thousand recruits and some light field works. A massed charge out of Mordor while assaulting the gate could simply overrun us with shear weight of numbers.

Best bet is to shell the walls from time to time or slowly reduce them, while a well armed party enters via the secret passage.

Though if we had sufficent fuel and transport it might be possibul to just drive around the end of the Ash mountains and back. But that could easily be a trip 1000 miles out of the way over unknown terrian.

Well, how about a dozen 120 mm recoilless guns mounted on Hummers? That part of the task force hammers the gate.

A further dozen Hummers uses vehicular medium mortars to clear the walls and break up concentrations of counterattacking troops.

The third dozen, fitted with pintle-mounted machine guns, supplies, and one manpack 81 mm recoilless gun each, secures ther perimeter.

The fourth dozen vehicles carries the troops and cargo necessary to plug the perimeter gaps and set up a defensive camp at the enemy's doorstep.

The last dozen vehicles, loaded with yet more troops and cargo, including a load of troll-killing manpack 81mm recoilless guns, is kept in reserve and, if the gates are smashed, forms the spearhead of the assault on Mordor.

Ideally, a large force of native auxiliaries will back up the fourth and fifth sections of the taskforce, providing needed manpower.

[Cpt_Frank]

One of my friends who is a huge gun nut pocesses a machine with which you can reload spent shells. Should I bring it along?

If it could be packed, which I doubt.

As for the M-14: Precisely because it has some weight to it - Though not to much, only a kilogram more than the original M-16s - and because of its length, giving more reach to the bayonet, along with the wooden furniture.

An empty M14 weighs 1kg more than a loaded M-16A1.
And it's actually not more rugged and reliable and easy to maintain than an AK.
And the AK-101 fires .223, has comparable range, is lighter, has less recoil and is actually controllable when fired in full-auto mode.
The M-14's enormous recoil makes it useless in automatic mode, I don't think we should take them with us, but if you really want....

The Spanish Mausers were chambered for 7.62 NATO and are considered good guns, but I would like to have that rate of fire.

I thought we'd take some with us just in case we really need to deploy blackpowder cartridges. They'd also make decent sniper rifles.