NASA's plans to return astronauts to the moon are dead. So are the rockets being designed to take them there — that is, if President Barack Obama gets his way.
When the White House releases his budget proposal Monday, there will be no money for the Constellation program that was supposed to return humans to the moon by 2020. The troubled and expensive Ares I rocket that was to replace the space shuttle to ferry humans to space will be gone, along with money for its bigger brother, the Ares V cargo rocket that was to launch the fuel and supplies needed to take humans back to the moon.
There will be no lunar landers, no moon bases, no Constellation program at all.
In their place, according to White House insiders, agency officials, industry executives and congressional sources familiar with Obama's long-awaited plans for the space agency, NASA will look at developing a new "heavy-lift" rocket that one day will take humans and robots to explore beyond low Earth orbit. But that day will be years — possibly even a decade or more — away.
In the meantime, the White House will direct NASA to concentrate on Earth-science projects — principally, researching and monitoring climate change — and on a new technology research and development program that will one day make human exploration of asteroids and the inner solar system possible.
There will also be funding for private companies to develop capsules and rockets that can be used as space taxis to take astronauts on fixed-price contracts to and from the International Space Station — a major change in the way the agency has done business for the past 50 years.
The White House budget request, which is certain to meet fierce resistance in Congress, scraps the Bush administration's Vision for Space Exploration and signals a major reorientation of NASA, especially in the area of human spaceflight.
"We certainly don't need to go back to the moon," said one administration official.
Everyone interviewed for this article spoke on condition of anonymity, either because they are not authorized to talk for the White House or because they fear for their jobs. All are familiar with the broad sweep of Obama's budget proposal, but none would talk about specific numbers because these are being tightly held by the White House until the release of the budget.
But senior administration officials say the spending freeze for some federal agencies is not going to apply to the space agency in this budget proposal. Officials said NASA was expected to see some "modest" increase in its current $18.7 billion annual budget — possibly $200 million to $300 million more but far less than the $1 billion boost agency officials had hoped for.
They also said that the White House plans to extend the life of the International Space Station to at least 2020. One insider said there would be an "attractive sum" of money — to be spent over several years — for private companies to make rockets to carry astronauts there.
But Obama's budget freeze is likely to hamstring NASA in coming years as the spending clampdown will eventually shackle the agency and its ambitions. And this year's funding request to develop both commercial rockets and a new NASA spaceship will be less than what was recommended by a White House panel of experts last year.
That panel, led by former Lockheed Martin CEO Norm Augustine, concluded that to have a "viable" human space-exploration program, NASA needed a $3 billion annual budget hike, and that it would take as much as $5 billion distributed over five years to develop commercial rockets that could carry astronauts safely to and from the space station.
Last year, lawmakers prohibited NASA from canceling any Constellation programs and starting new ones in their place unless the cuts were approved by Congress. The provision sends a "direct message that the Congress believes Constellation is, and should remain, the future of America's human space flight program," wrote U.S. Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., last month.
Nevertheless, NASA contractors have been quietly planning on the end of Ares I, which is years behind schedule and millions of dollars over budget. NASA has already spent more than $3 billion on Ares I and more than $5 billion on the rest of Constellation.
In recent days, NASA has been soliciting concepts for a new heavy-lift rocket from major contractors, including Boeing Co., Lockheed Martin Corp. and Pratt & Whitney. Last week, a group of moonlighting NASA engineers and rocket hobbyists proposed variations on old agency designs that use the shuttle's main engines and fuel tank to launch a capsule into space. According to officials and industry executives familiar with the presentations, some of the contractor designs are very similar to the one pressed by the hobbyists.
Officially, companies such as Boeing still support Constellation and its millions of dollars of contracts. Some believe that in a battle with Congress, Ares may survive.
"I would not say Ares is dead yet," said an executive with one major NASA contractor. "It's probably more accurate to say it's on life support. We have to wait to see how the coming battle ends."
Few doubt that a fight is looming. In order to finance new science and technology programs and find money for commercial rockets, Obama will be killing off programs that have created jobs in some powerful constituencies, including the Marshall Space Flight Center in Shelby's Alabama. But the White House is said to be ready for a fight.
The end of the shuttle program this year is already going to slash 7,000 jobs at Kennedy Space Center.
One administration official said the budget will send a message that it's time members of Congress recognize that NASA can't design space programs to create jobs in their districts. "That's the view of the president," the official said.
There are huge financial problems in the US right now. While I'm all for NASA projects just as much as the next guy I also recognize the fact that money doesn't grow on trees and other things come first.
There are huge financial problems in the US right now. While I'm all for NASA projects just as much as the next guy I also recognize the fact that money doesn't grow on trees and other things come first.
While true, such endeavors could mean a lot of good jobs.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
There are huge financial problems in the US right now. While I'm all for NASA projects just as much as the next guy I also recognize the fact that money doesn't grow on trees and other things come first.
A few percentage points slashed from the military budget could easily give NASA the funds it needs, but I guess killing Arabs is more important.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
There are huge financial problems in the US right now. While I'm all for NASA projects just as much as the next guy I also recognize the fact that money doesn't grow on trees and other things come first.
The costs of Constellation have averaged a mere $2¼ billion a year so far. Seriously, there are a fuckton of far less useful things which cost far more that the government should be looking to cut first, especially since killing Constellation could very well kill American manned spaceflight permanently.
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NASA has progressively gone downhill since the mid 1970s, they haven't even replaced the disappointing Space Shuttle. We can't just shy away from space travel forever.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil
'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid
'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
Big Orange wrote:NASA has progressively gone downhill since the mid 1970s, they haven't even replaced the disappointing Space Shuttle. We can't just shy away from space travel forever.
Try telling that to every money-grubbing jackass in Congress.
Never underestimate the ingenuity and cruelty of the Irish.
So they want to scrap the Ares V and the Orion capsule in favor of some other heavy lift rocket to be developed some time in the future, maybe?
Say goodbye to American manned spaceflight. When you guys decide to go back into space in 2050 or whenever, you'll either have to buy Russian, European, Indian or Chinese systems, or you'll be back to reinventing the wheel from Gemini upwards. Yay!
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It's official. Obama is pretty much a disaster on virtually all fronts of his policy regime -- the only fronts he hasn't been a disaster on -- are the ones that he kept Bush Era policies in place -- like WAR FOR THE BLOOD GOD in Iraq and Afghanistan and BLOOD FOR THE DRONE GOD in Pakistan.
He's also officially JFK Mk. II Mod 0.
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What are the odds that this is just part of the negotiation process (after all this is the proposal, not the actual budget)? That is to say, they left it out deliberately so that one or more of the Congresscritters whose constituents work on space flight fight to get it back and the administration says something to the effect of, "Okay we'll put that in, but what about changing XYZ?"
Something along those lines.
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The current problems are a rather thin excuse when NASA was at its height when there were big, expensive wars raging in Korea and Vietnam, and NASA now scrapping a long line of feasible, half-finished space projects/vehicles is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. As PeZook says, when there is the inevitable second space race between China and Europe and a resurgent Russia, America will more likely to be left behind with its pants down if it keeps on dragging its heels like this.
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil
'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid
'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
Big Orange wrote:The current problems are a rather thin excuse when NASA was at its height when there were big, expensive wars raging in Korea and Vietnam
You FAIL at history. Korea was long over when NASA was created from NACA. Go back to start and do not collect $200, champ.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
The Spartan wrote:What are the odds that this is just part of the negotiation process (after all this is the proposal, not the actual budget)? That is to say, they left it out deliberately so that one or more of the Congresscritters whose constituents work on space flight fight to get it back and the administration says something to the effect of, "Okay we'll put that in, but what about changing XYZ?"
Something along those lines.
I feel like this is a negotiation tactic because he is sick of his opposition characterizing EVERYTHING he does as big spending. he wasn't exactly rock solid on health care reform.
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This topic is... oh Village Idiot. Carry on then.--Havok
MKSheppard wrote:
You FAIL at history. Korea was long over when NASA was created from NACA. Go back to start and do not collect $200, champ.
Yes, NASA was officially formed in 1958 in response to Sputnik, but splitting hairs aside its direct predecessor was making the first tentative steps out into space and developing rockets when the Korean War was raging, although no space race has been a contributing factor to why NASA has been running round in circles in the past two decades. And do we actually need NASA in its current state, a Cold War relic, when we'll make more progress with a new international space agency?
'Alright guard, begin the unnecessarily slow moving dipping mechanism...' - Dr. Evil
'Secondly, I don't see why "income inequality" is a bad thing. Poverty is not an injustice. There is no such thing as causes for poverty, only causes for wealth. Poverty is not a wrong, but taking money from those who have it to equalize incomes is basically theft, which is wrong.' - Typical Randroid
'I think it's gone a little bit wrong.' - The Doctor
Big Orange wrote:Yes, NASA was officially formed in 1958 in response to Sputnik, but splitting hairs aside its direct predecessor was making the first tentative steps out into space and developing rockets when the Korean War was raging
WRONG. The U.S. Army was developing rockets and planning for the future, along with the U.S. Navy, and U.S. Air Force -- it was only Kennedy's stupid "spaceflight should be CIVILIAN" thing that stripped Juno/Saturn and Von Braun from the U.S. Army's Redstone Arsenal.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
The man can't not fuck up when it comes to big policy moves.
Healthcare - Talk a big game, shiv it in the back when the chips are down
Economy - Talk a big game, fuck the treasury in the ass repeatedly
Defense - Talk a big game, middle of the road it and make no one happy
And now...
Space - Well I don't remember him talking a big game about space exploration but given his idiotic pie in the skying of nuclear arms dealings, this makes some sort of sense, I guess, if you forget that with a relatively small investment we can reap huge rewards from space and that eventually all of the resources on the planet are going to run out and space is the only other option besides the world fighting over the scraps. Most of his policies have been extremely short term in scope from the emphasis on shovel ready programs to the raping of our children's children's wallets, he consistently demonstrates a lack of foresight in his policy choices, this falls right in line with that. Fuck it, who needs space flight, bankers do it....with interest!
At first I thought he was Carter, then Hoover and now a bit of Kennedy thrown in there. Change indeed...
Last edited by KrauserKrauser on 2010-01-27 04:05pm, edited 1 time in total.
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There are huge financial problems in the US right now. While I'm all for NASA projects just as much as the next guy I also recognize the fact that money doesn't grow on trees and other things come first.
A few percentage points slashed from the military budget could easily give NASA the funds it needs, but I guess killing Arabs is more important.
Absolutely, but that won't happen. So, the cuts will and should continue to take place in other programs that don't have objective or subjective importance. Reality sucks, I know. The US military could use a good overhaul to ensure that their budget isn't being wasted on stupid projects.
There are huge financial problems in the US right now. While I'm all for NASA projects just as much as the next guy I also recognize the fact that money doesn't grow on trees and other things come first.
The costs of Constellation have averaged a mere $2¼ billion a year so far. Seriously, there are a fuckton of far less useful things which cost far more that the government should be looking to cut first, especially since killing Constellation could very well kill American manned spaceflight permanently.
Like what? I believe you, but I'd just like to hear what you have in mind.
KrauserKrauser wrote:The man can't not fuck up when it comes to big policy moves.
Healthcare - Talk a big game, shiv it in the back when the chips are down
Economy - Talk a big game, fuck the treasury in the ass repeatedly
Defense - Talk a big game, middle of the road it and make no one happy
And now...
Space - Well I don't remember him talking a big game about space exploration but given his idiotic pie in the skying of nuclear arms dealings, this makes some sort of sense, I guess, if you forget that with a relatively small investment we can reap huge rewards from space and that eventually all of the resources on the planet are going to run out and space is the only other option besides the world fighting over the scraps. Most of his policies have been extremely short term in scope from the emphasis on shovel ready programs to the raping of our children's children's wallets, he consistently demonstrates a lack of foresight in his policy choices, this falls right in line with that. Fuck it, who needs space flight, bankers do it....with interest!
At first I thought he was Carter, then Hoover and now a bit of Kennedy thrown in there. Change indeed...
I don't blame Obama for any of those. I blame the democrats in general for being completely spineless.
I guess Obama must not be a Demo...Oh shit! He's actually the most powerful Democrat around!
Definitely no need to hold him accountable to the policy decisions of the White House or the refuse coming from Congress.
I hear Presidents have absolutely no influence on their parties, or at least you are saying that this one doesn't. So he's either impotent or inept, which of the two labels do you want applied?
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KrauserKrauser wrote:I guess Obama must not be a Demo...Oh shit! He's actually the most powerful Democrat around!
Definitely no need to hold him accountable to the policy decisions of the White House or the refuse coming from Congress.
I hear Presidents have absolutely no influence on their parties, or at least you are saying that this one doesn't. So he's either impotent or inept, which of the two labels do you want applied?
Are you being obtuse on purpose? President Obama is only one man, and regardless of whatever pipe dream you have of the presidency he's only as good as the people who back him. Democrats in congress and in general have demonstrated that they are spineless in each of those areas that you cited.
Presidents obviously do have influence on their parties, but if your party consists of spineless people then that influence only goes so far. If you weren't being such a ratard you would know this.
Sorry, I just laugh at Obama sympathizers. Alot of his decisions and personal actions are indicative of his desired policies.
He fucking bent over backwards to accomodate the shit that Lieberman wanted ripped out of the bill, essentially slapping the face of any progressives in the Senate.
He selected Timothy fucking Geithner for the Treasury. I guess he could have pardonned someone actually convicted of tax evasion and then nominated him, I guess that was too much papaer work and he got the closest thing he could. He and Geithner then decide to two dicks one hole the Treasury and try their goddamn hardest to make sure no light is shined into the vaccous pit of despair that is the Fed.
The man is not some stalwart of progress and awesomeness that you believe him to be. Maybe if you took a look at him without those rose colored glasses you have glued to your head, you might see that the emporer might be feeling a bit drafty.
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Uh, he's not claiming anywhere that Obama is 'awesome'. He's just talking about political realities in the cowardly, fragmented Democratic party. Where are the 'rose colored glasses' when he's basically saying the entire party is useless?
Because he is claiming that Obama is removed from the consideration as a coward and/or useless.
I am saying that he is in fact a great representation of the current Democratic Party as he is both a coward and useless on a number of issues.
Why he should be excused or elevated above the current feeling of the rest of the Democrat party I can't understand as he has not done anything other give a fuckton of eloquent speeches to prove otherwise.
See a trend in his approaches to different policies? They mostly all start with "Talk a big game" and end with a dick in your ass (And not the good kind, he forgot the lube).
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