Tyranids vs the Galactic Empire

[Connor MacLeod]

. Second, my point is efficiency within the agency. A clear hierarchy throughout the galaxy will result in much more rapid responses to troubles, as well as (presumably) more co-ordination, than a looser system will. Since you consider "clear hierarchy" a buzzword I will restate the example I gave in my last post, in pointing out that in Imperial Intelligence, orders can routinely pass directly from galaxywide command on Coruscant/Imperial Center down through channels and to individual System Cells on single planets, which can also send information higher up through the Sector Plexus (ref: the Imperial Sourcebook). Does the Inquisition have anything comparable?

1.) Give evidence of the actual speed and "co-ordination" you claim from Imperial intelligence. Nothing in the ISB suggests that the communication from the Ubiqtorate down to the indiviual system cells is neccesarily rapid -the Plexus description in fact argues against that, given they seem to focus more on "secrecy" than "speed" (IE use of couriers over the Holonet, anonymity of the Uqibtorate, etc.) It's pointless to debate or disprove something that remains essentially unquantified, nor am I going to bother disproving your idle speculation without something more substantial.

2.) "Clear hierarchy" remains a fucking buzzword, since the Inquisition ALSO has a "clear hierarchy" as you care to define it - Inquisitors - which we may liken to the "system cells" of Imperial Intelligence - respond to Inquisitor Lords which often form a sector level command (which I suspect is represented by the regional "Conclaves" mentioned in Dark Heresy.)

At the highest level the is the "Secret Order" mentioned in the Codex Imperialis - the Inquisitions most important members who are used to form a Conclave that examines threats to humanity and forms policy (much like the Ubiqtorate) - they more than likely also choose the Inquisitorial representative that acts as observer and advisor to the High Lords (analogous to reporting directly to Palpy, although they themseles do not bother reporting to Moffs or Grand Moffs.)

Each Ordo (the three main and various smaller like the Ordo Sicarius) have their own areas of responsibility and act independently of the other Ordos - it must be kept in mind that the Inquisition serves far more of a role than mere intel functions, of course, which is both different and more complex than I.I, but the "hierarchy" is little different than what Imperial Intelligence has as per the ISB or any of the WOTC material. If anything, the Inquisition is more like the SEcret Order of the Empire, though on reading the sourcebook, what IT (and other sources) say about Imperial Intel and what you claim it is seem to be two very important things. Just what sources are you basing your assessment on?

You apparently missed my point. Which was, is the Ministerium comparable in scope to an organisation that actively attempts (albeit is not always successful) to pervade every portion of society? COMPNOR has formal agencies for working with science, commerce, education, justice, and so forth, in addition to the youth groups/SA/SS/Gestapo functions. I know that the Church is powerful, but in the material that I am familiar with it does not appear to cover all those functions.

Yes, it does attempt to pervade every portion of society. The head of the church is a High Lord of Terra. They have representations typically on every planet, subsector, sector, and so on. They activeyl and aggressively perform missionary work (the Missionarius Galaxia IIRC), and they run the Schola Progenium - schools which educate and indoctrinate the orphans of Imperial servants and provides Guard and Navy Officers, Commissars, Storm Troopers, Assassins, Arbites, and even Inquisitors. They have the ability to whip up frenzied mobs (Frateris militia if not mere mobs) to achieve their goals and wage wars of faith (sometimes even to the point of disrupting the stability and peace of a whole world.) The scope of the Ecclsiarchy's power reached its high point under Goge Vandire - it wielded so much influence under him that they actively sought to limit the powers of the Ecclesiarchy in a way they did not (that I recall) to the Adminsitratum or other organs Vandire corrupted or infiltrated. Indeed, the Sisters of Battle serve a dual purpose in keeping a watch over the Ecclesiarchy for the Ordo Hereticus as well (indeed the Hereticus arose as a result of the Age of Apostasy Vandire incited.) That the Ecclesiarchy today does not have as great of power is because it is actively resisted on many fronts - indeed it comes into clash with the AdMech and its Machine Cult, the Astartes and their own individual cults, and the Inquisition (one example being Ecclesiarchy members trying to hunt down Eisenhorn despite being an Inquisitor, or its ability to co-opt more fanatical inquisitors into its own purposes.) A good chunk of this ends up being covered in Codex Witch Hunters and the 2nd edition Sisters of Battle book primarily, but other sources like Inquisitor RPG, Dark Heresy, and such also contain info about it as does the Codex Imperialis.

Again, have you bothered doing ANY research on your own on this?

Wait, what are the examples of major Imperial infighting within particular organisations? Between rivals such as Intelligence and the ISB, yes, but intra-agency?

The big ones that come to mind are the Isards fighting for control of Imperial Intelligence, and the rivalries and conflicts between the Generationals and the "new" generation of officers installed in the changing Imperial Navy (political appointees and functionaries and whatnot.) as outlined in the Rebellion era sourcebook. Besides which, the encouragement of infighting (Palpy almost certainly had a hand in influecning Isard's coup over her father, for example) pretty much fits in line with Palpatine's views and practices within the Empire. Particularily since Isard was big on rulling by fear rather than by trust or loyalty and was quite vindictive.

Imperial infighting and corruption is typically on the order of turf wars and budgetary competition (the authors of the ISB fairly obviously used Nazi Germany as their model), while in the Imperium there are literal wide-ranging conspiracies in the Inquisition against the Inquisition and the Imperium itself (such as the Hydra from Draco) and whole planets or even larger groups can defect without being noticed for some time. While the Empire has suffered from some conspiracies, they were typically nipped in the bud (such as the Trachta Circle on Coruscant, which was basically Palpatine's plaything from the start) and more importantly, and generally (from what I can determine, at least) they had little support in the intelligence/security apparatus.

What the fuck does Trachta have to do with Imperial Intelligence? Do you have evidence that Intel played a substantail role in his downfall? As I recall, he was brought down by his own paranoia and distrust (which affected his cabal) and Palpy's own precog more than anything else, so claiming that because Tractha's plan fell "apart" represents a victory for Intel is dishonest to say the least. Nevermind that I could bother mentioning a numbe of the subplots in the TIE fighter games (Harkov, whose defeat was engineered by the Secret Order, and Zaarin, who successfully executed a coup right under Intel's nose.).

My point is that the Empire has its own Inquisition equivalents (Inquisitorius, Prophets of the Dark Side, Secret Order of the Emperor, Emperor's Hands and what have you) while also having ordinary, non-magical, formally organised intelligence and security agencies with effective command and control down to the level of individual planets, with permanent apparatuses in place for fact-sifting and surveillance. As far as I am aware, the Inquisition basically is the Imperium's sole "formal" intelligence and security service on the galactic scale (perhaps one would count the Assassinorum also). Not to say that the agencies (e.g., AdMech) and powerful individuals do not have their own networks, but these would (as far as I can gather) not be of the same scale.

Navy Intel is mentioned in several novels as well (Eye of Terror and Hereos of the Space Marines) and I know at least in EoT it was operating at Segmentum level if not higher (the High Lords knew about the events as well as they gave orders to the Segmentum Admiral intent on launching an attack on the Eye of Terror. They'd also planned his assasination for attempting to go behind their backs.) And if the Navy has a large intel network, then its guranteed all the others do, due to politics and such. The other organizations int he Imperium operate on larger scales as well - the Munitorum and IG, the Administratum, the AdMech, etc. can all exercise power which is in theory comparable to that of the Inquisition despite the Inquisitorial mandate (politics plays a big role in the actual power structure - inquisitors have been rebuffed or even killed by members of the other organizations before through politics.) Why would they somehow NOT also have galaxy-wide intelligence networks? The AdMech for one needs such as they are a galaxy spanning agency and must often be involved in the acquisition of lost technology when found given their obsessive stranglehold on technology.

Frankly I do not trust your assessment one bit. You admit to not having had ANY familiarity with the 40K side of the debate, and I'm dubious of your professed "knowledge" of the SW side of the equation - what you proclaim certainly does not match up with the evidence in any sources I own, including the ISB.

Is this organisation also functional in practice, though? Can the Grand High Lord Imperial Inquisitor (or whatever) on Terra give orders to operatives on individual planets rapidly and reliably if he needs to, as Imperial Intelligence can?

Probably, depending on the method of communication. I notice you seem to be operating under the assumption that the head of Ubiqtorate can give personal instructions to any subordinate:

The Ubiqtorate consists of anonymous members who never personally interact with their subordinates (except for agents in Adjustments). Directives come from the Ubiqtorate, never an individual director, and communications return via courier, secure Holonet, or other indirect means.

The Ubiqtorate oversees all of the activities of Imperial Intelligence at the highest levels. Details and tactical considerations are decided by the appropriate bureau or branch of Imperial Intelligence. The Ubiqtorate never concerns itself with those. The Ubiqtorate formulates strategies for the bureaus of Imperial Intelligence or, as has recently become common, presents the bureaus with a set of goals and very broad grand strategic considerations and asks them to plan an effective strategy. With the exception of Adjustments, members of the Ubiqtorate never have any communication with personnel at the sector or system level. They would certainly never deal with an individual field agent.

The members of the Ubiqtorate are anonymous. They are unknown to their subordinates;
a member of the Ubiqtorate is likely to be acquainted with the identities of perhaps a third of
the members, and to have personal contact with only a handful. When communicating to the rest of Imperial Intelligence, the members of the Ubiqtorate identify the originator as
"Ubiqtorate," never an individual.

In other words, unless you're trying to use Adjustments as a "standard" example (and they hardly apply since they are ELITE and SECRETIVE "last resort" type agents) I fail to see your argument gaining wait. Again, have you actualyl bothered doing any research before making these allegations? What you're describing hardly sounds like what the sources I quoted above describe, so I'm now wondering what the hell you're basing your assumptions on.

I also question "rapidity" and "reliability" on the basis of the ISB as well:

When a message is sent through the Plexus, it is copied and transmitted to at least two different conduits at each link along the way. Each Sector Plexus station is a surprisingly small affair, and while they are well hidden, their security is far from guaranteed. If enemy forces destroy a few Plexus conduits, parallel transmission will allow the message to get through despite the loss. Lower priority messages are sent on less secure channels, and only two copies of each message are transmitted from each conduit. But there are five or more links along the message path before transmission to the final destination, and the message is transmitted to additional conduits even after the message has been received at the final destination. This means the message is routed to thousands of places, only one of which is the actual destination. Even if a message is intercepted, enemy agents have a slim chance of discovering the location of the initial sender or the recipient; the chain is too long.

Sending messages over many links takes time, so higher priority messages are sent over more secure channels and fewer links, but three copies of each message is sent from a single conduit to better protect against the destruction of Plexus conduits.

When copies of a message are transmitted, there can be many reasons for errors — power
fluctuations during transmission, signal degradation over long range, interference from other
beamcasts or star activity. The message may have been interrupted by a message of higher
priority. The computer may receive readings which indicate enemy sensors are sweeping the
area for evidence of transmissions, and quickly stop transmissions.

When the message reaches its final conduit, the Plexus computer assembles and compares all received versions of the message, synthesizing them into the message most likely to be an exact copy of the original. The computer then generates the authenticity code for the message — the more secure the channel and the fewer the deviations between copies of the message, the higher the authenticity code.

Sector Plexus has access to portions of the HoloNet, but most of their information is carried
from system to system on droid vessels. These are small, extremely fast starships run strictly
by CNLinked droids and computers. The ship has a nav computer, a storage/transceiving 12-
CG droid (based on Cybot Galactica's ED4 model), a "ship's captain" R2-M3 droid (based
on the R2 astromech droid), and an analysis/encoding computer equipped with a TranLang
III Communication module. These ships contain no accommodations or space for living beings, nor do they have life support systems.

Essentially the PDV is a fuel source and engine, with supporting electronics and droids
attached. It is built strictly to send and receive Plexus conduit transmissions within a system
and then jump to the next system on its route. A combination of PDV speed, programmed skills and efficient route algorithms guarantee that a PDV never has a jump duration greater than one standard day, except in extreme emergencies..

What is described above does not soound nearly as nice as what you proclaim. What is your evidence to back up the assertion of speed? At best you can MAYBE claim reliability from that, but I'd like to see proof backing that up as well.

Would you please tell me how effective control of operations galaxywide is a "buzzword"? It denotes a fairly simple concept, and one that makes a fair bit of difference if one has it or does not. And yes, I have never denied that the Empire has Inquisition-like agencies. I have contended that they do not form the backbone of the Imperial security/intelligence effort, which is run by formal military and police agencies; rather, they are specialist groups that work on cases requiring their particular attention.

You haven't presented any evidence, analysis, or anything vaguely substantial or meaningful to back up your allegations. In fact, given how you are arguing this I find it highly debatable you have done any research at all into either the GE or the Imperium, despite the fact you argue and act as if you are highly knowledgable on the subject. What little you have "presented" is little more than a shallow and overly-simplistic assertion based on a few cleverly framed concepts, but ignores any real depth to the issue. At best, its a "highly idealized" conceptualization of how Imperial Intelligence OUGHT to work, but to actually make a case you need far more substantial proof than you have brought to bear.

I may be terribly mistaken, here, but would not a wartime security effort actually be easier to maintain in at least some ways, given that you can then clamp down harder on travel, demand more rigorous security, and so forth?

In some ways perhaps - you do things during wartime you might not do in peacetime, but the GE operates under the pretense of "Wartime" (Palpy trying to extend his powers way past their mark by making up threats) so I doubt that applies. On the downside, wartime adds additional burdens to finite resources - not only do the intel agencies have to add wartime concerns to concerns already existing (society doesn't STOP once a war occurs) and the intel agencies are now competing with other agencies for resources that will further have to be allocated to handle the war (possibly even diverted from other sources.) And doing things like "clamp down on travel", "demand more security" and so on DO take resources to enforce - life goes on even in war (indeed this is something we see in the Clone Wars AND the Galactic civil war - travel, the economy, etc. all continue onwards. Indeed, the way the GE is structured its economy and industry probably would ont welcome the disruption of a large scale war like was seein during the Vong incursion.)

We've never seen the GE face the sorts of problems the Imperium faces - threats and conflicts on multiple fronts. For example, within a decade (990-991.M41) the Imperium faced not less than two Tyranid incursions (Kraken and Leviathan), a number of Ork incursions (including the big one involving the Third Armageddon war, which is still in the phases of mopping up), and the 13th Black Crusade led by Abbadon. This is in addition to all the "normal" stuff they can expect to face (minor ork incursions, alien invasions, rebellion, cultist uprisings, Necrons tomb worlds, what have you.) All those myriad threats occupy finite resources and divert attnetion in myriad directions. At most the GE has ONE major problem to contend with - the Rebellion - Palpy in fact had to fabricate multiple threats in order to justify his activities, so the GE is more on a peacetime footing than an actual wartime one (like they were in the Clone Wars.)

In the peacetime Empire travel is virtually free (on the low-security worlds, at least) and interstellar communications are fairly easily available. Dirt-world farmers have enough capital to buy starships. Maintaining security in a galaxy of such rapid communications should logically be more difficult than in the Imperium, where interstellar travel is comparatively rare.

And? These problems magically vanish when a war breaks out? Are you telling me civilians will suddenly all compltely stop travelling across the galaxy in their own ships, or tryng to communicate, or otherwise basically trying to live a life? Damn, thats awfully convenient of them to be so selfless and considerate if they do. If anything those factors will only become worse in wartime (even a limited war) given those advantages can apply to the enemy as well as to themselves (nevermind the problems created by infighting between themselves and the differing organizations.) Point of fact, we've never even SEEN the Intelligence organizations of the Empire actually tested in a serious manner, in the same way we've never seen the Imperial military seriously challenged by a real threat - how would this much vaunted "efficiency" hold up? )

It's obvious you aren't even trying to argue this fairly. I question the validity of your assertions on the basis that you have done zero evidence, much less a comparative analysis between the GE and Imperium, and have evidently given zero thought to any of the implications that the research would engender or the ways in which the two situations don't even compare. Don't bother replying ot me until you actually come up with evidence, because I am not interested in idle speculation. I want proof.

[Connor MacLeod]

For strategic purposes the Emperor is dead; he makes effectively no decisions. His sole contribution to the continued function of the Imperium is that they use his head as a giant lighthouse. If Palpatine were reduced to the God-Emperor's state, the Empire would collapse in short order as we've seen, even if his vital signs were still nominally ticking over. It might not collapse as fast as it would with a living Palpatine taking refuge in the Deep Core and explicitly screwing with things for the hell of it, but people like Ysanne Isard would need no special orders to screw things up, given the opportunity.

Er, no. He still plays an active role. The problem is he has no body, or rather Avatar, to act through directly. He has to act indirectly through agents (or "angels" - the Imperial "daemon" analogue.) He's no different in how he interacts with the galaxy than a Chaos God, the Ork Gods, or any other such entity. He helps maintain the Astrotelepathic networks (and likely is able to monitor them) he influences a great deal of the precognition and divination (such as the Tarot), he often can act through vessels (sending visions/messengers to champions, having Astropaths deliver messages as he did in Execution Hour, etc.) Some earlier sources have even described him sa behaving as sort of an "early warning system" against an Ork Waaagh - sending out warning sin various forms to get the Imperium mobilizing to counter the threat. His powers are also often described as being involved in protecting humanity directly from daemons

Much of his efforts are directed to fighting the Chaos Gods and defusing their plots (cf novel Eye of Terror -- the man acted on the the timeframe of millenia)

If he had a physical body to inhabit (as in the Crusade/Heresy era) he can take much more direct action. But even his shattered body can still interact with the world (Inquisition War when he stopped time and teleported Draco into his throne room)

I think the point here isn't so much to make every world immune to Tyranid attack; it's to create a firebreak of fortified worlds in the path of the Tyranid invasion, forcing them to expend large amounts of biomass for little return against planetary shields and heavy turbolaser batteries.

The Imperium tried the firebreak approach - it only works up to a point. The best method they've found is "biomass denial" which involves destroying the worlds as the Tyranids are about to consume the material, but that is a tactic of diminishing returns.

Planetary shielding of the full scale variety might work to a point, but then you're effectively in a siege and cut off from the galaxy until forces are allocated to retrieve it. Might work as a "hammer and anvil" tactic, but it also ties up forces which could leave OTHER worlds vulnerable to attack. The problems i already highlighted with the tactic still apply.

I'll add to this that in looking up other sources (like Crucible of war), Let the Galaxy Burn (page 95) DOES mention Tyranids dropping asteroids on planets, so they're at least aware of the tactic. They also mention taking/defeating whole worlds simply by employing biological warfare, so that's another possible tactic.

The great threat of the Tyranids is that they'll sneak up on you, eat their way through a large swath of lightly defended worlds, hit your defenses with the combined biomass of those planets, and then roll right over you. The logical counter is to stop them as far forward as possible, before they have time to get a decent meal.

More likely they'll have luck in the isolated segments - extragalactic clusters, the unknown regions nad outer rim before they move on towards the Core. The Core of the GE is almost totally protected by starships and palnetary shields and none but the most massive hive fleet assaults could hope to make a dent in it. On the other hand, they need things from the outer rim (such as resources, and a fair chunk of industry can be locate d out there) so losing the outer Rim to the Tyranids can hamper them as well.

Yes, but they're ludicrously mobile. The Tyranids' long STL coasts to get into the target star systems would be fatal to them for that reason: the Empire could concentrate thousands of ships wherever they're needed in a matter of... hours? Days? Weeks at most. Their communications and travel would not be jammed in proximity to the 'Nids, either.

Depends on how fast they choose to accelerate. Imperial vessels can cover the in-system distances in hours or days (DoW2 in fact is one example of this, as are the ghosts novels, Ravenor and eisenhorn, etc.) Tyranid ships have never shown an accelerative disadvantage compared to the Imperium either. (I'd also note that hours or days is roughly the timeframe SW ships can take to travel in system. While not required to do so, its hardly uncommon. )

Moreover, the warp emergence point isn't fixed. "billions of kilometers" (outside a systme) is typical yes, but that is more because its a safety measure than an actual limitation. Closer in jumps have beem accomplished (The Orks who attacked Rynn's World, the Crimson Fists homeworld, came out within 150,000 km or so of the planet, and Chaos did a suicidally close in-system jump in Cain's Last Stand. Imperial ships have come out as close as a a few AU or less from planets before) There are also vessels known as "daemonships" - possessed starships that can enter or exit the warp pretty much at will even in-system.

There are a number of factors dictating the distance (the fact you open a portal into a daemon infested hell is a big danger for one) but its not *impossible* to do so in system,. its just dangerous. The big factors are a.) gravity and b.) the unpredictability and turbulence of the warp in the 40K galaxy. The Former cna't be changed, but the latter can. Warp turbulence is a huge factor because it tosses the ship around constantly, and messes with time and space massively and just generally fucks things up. When a ship travels in the warp they usually try to travel along relatively safer or more stable currets (which we know in BFG as "warp points" or lines connecting between systems.) - its just easier that way. But unless these "currents" branch off or link to other currents, your ship is generally stuck on the path they go (not always - the Warp is unpredictable after all and you can still navigate around in it, dangerous as that can be - hell battles can be fought in the warp) And all that basically amounts to making it hard to plot an exact emergence point form the warp - which means that you can risk being thrown into something solid (or have something worse) happen if you emerge in-system at the wrong point. But the SW galaxy has no pskyers, so its warp (initially) isn't going to be turbulent or dangerous like the 40K warp. Much easier to navigate, and much safer to emerge in system (That doesnt mean its going to match Hyperdrive, but still..)

I will note while checking through my sources, I know of at least one example of the Tyranids apparently coming in close to a planet. Page 118 of Crucible of War had me noting that the Tyranids emerged from warp portals and very shortly after invaded a planet (minutes at best, I recall.) I'll have to find the book and the quote though, I think it was a Cain short story - also notable I think for a Tyranid form getting its head exploded by a single lasgun shot

'Course, this assumes that Tyranids still have warp travel capability they had in 2nd edition or so (5th edition gives them a new means to travel, which has its own nastiness involved.) but I would assume they do

So the Empire doesn't need the numbers to garrison every planet; it has the mobility to redeploy to face threats that would easily overwhelm the local garrison. The Imperium has had to build up so much tonnage entirely because it can't count on being able to reinforce a threatened sector in time to save it; any valuable target must be protected with a force capable of holding off the largest plausible invasion force until backup arrives, and that could take months or years.

Yes, but that only works if the Tyranids concentrate also. What happens when they attack mulitple points (like Hive Fleet Kraken?) They have only so many warships.

As for the whole "Tyranids suck in space" yes they do up to a point, but there have been cases where individual Hive ships can match or exceed an Imperial ship. Alot of it depends on the design of the Hive Ship (they vary insanely of course - some have warp beams and warp shields for crying out loud. HEll there are hormagaunts that developed their own innate warp shields! Ther'es a reason Tyranids are a magical race. BTW both short stories this crops up are in the "Let the Galaxy Burn" anthology.)

I should note that the GE and the imperium are largely equal in terms of firepower (thats a bit of an oversimplification, but it works fo rnow) but the Imperium has a considerable edge in durability and toughness (Battles in SW typically last minutes tops, minutes to hours in 40K.)
which needs to be borne in mind. And even if there IS an inadequacy in space, that doesnt mean they can't adapt to the situation (even if it just means building more frigging ships - they'd HAVE access to the resources)

And while we're on the Death Stars... they're useful as a marker for the scope of resources and the industrial potential the Empire has. That doesn't mean they'll neccesarily *use* it, or use it in the fashion they used with the Death STar (The Death STars were built largely in secret, remember. Using slave labor and other practices which probably would not be popular - including droids.)

We know the Empire has the resources and logistics to build larger fleets (the Death Stars), we know they have the money to pay for it (Domus Publica's excellent economic analysis of the Empire and the Empire's financial resources relative to ship costs), we know they have the potential crews to do it (trillions of naval crews IIRC the REbellion Era Campaign guide correct.) and they can finagle the shipyard capacity in some way.

What we don't know is if they have the infrasturcture to support that kind of military for any length of time (its not just food or spare parts, its stuff like hypermatter fuel and the various "gasses" used in the energy weapons) We also don't know what they might very well be sacrificing to increase the fleet - not just in terms of money either. Trillions of crews is a potential number as I noted above, but where are they pulling them from. Those crewers could be serving on stations, could be running freighters or transports, etc. As I recall Publius' own analysis noted that Palpatine used the GE merchant marine as a possible training ground for naval crews, so its likely that a fair chunk of that number are tied up in shipping and other practices. Which could in turn hamper the economy or industrial efforts in unforseen ways. There's also crew pay and such.

Logistics can't be sneezed at either. Last I talked to him Ender had been checking into Imperial/Republic logistics and drawing parallels for real life and he'd indicated that costs and shipping could be a HUGE limitation on military power (in short - if you want to build a bigger fleet you ALSO need to build a bigger logistical network to support it, which makes sense.)

The gist of it being that in most "vs" with the Empire its overwhelming size and/or firepower and speed are such an issue that any real conflict could be concluded in a realtively short time. I question (unless we're dealing with a small number of hive fleets total) whether this would be true of the Tyranids.

The problem is that I've also heard Count Dooku's "ten thousand systems" as something worth mentioning in a top-level planning session of the CIS leadership, as a way to seriously reassure nervous Separatist leaders, rather than being sort of like saying that the population of Muncie, Indiana is prepared to join you in your world war.

How important were the systems in question? In a galaxy as vast and inter-connected as the SW galaxy is, the impact a single system can have on the larger galaxy (or even a small number) can be vastly out of proportion to its size relative to the rest of the galaxy. Such is even true in real life, so why not Star Wars?

The idea that the Death Star vastly outweighs the combined fleets of the civilized galaxy combined seems odd, but it doesn't seem odder than the plot implications of multimillion ship fleets do to me.

Why? The whole point of the Death Star is to be the ultimate weapon - something so big, and powerful that it could conceivably overwhelm any "practical" force an enemy could amass against it. By definition it OUGHT to overpower anything it meets, up to and including an entire starfleet. Same thing for the DS2 (which could overpower a large number of DS1s itself!)

In any case, your analysis is overly simplistic - it fails to address other things relevant to a Navy - its support and logistical fleets (transports and freighters), the existence or need for space stations, battlestations, shipyards (both mobile and stationary), and so on and so forth. Those *DO* exist too, after all.

[Srelex]

Yes, but that only works if the Tyranids concentrate also. What happens when they attack mulitple points (like Hive Fleet Kraken?) They have only so many warships.

And how many points did Kraken attack? We had at least dozens or even hundreds of battlefronts at any given time during the Clone Wars, with the Republic fighting off mass CIS encroachments and vast offensive campaigns, so there's no reason that the Empire, having more resources, a larger military, and officers who've had experiance in that war in simply dividing their not inconsiderable forces. Unless Kraken is attacking thousands or tens of thousands of worlds concurrently, they're hardly going to be shitting their pants just because the enemy is attacking several targets.

[Connor MacLeod]

And how many points did Kraken attack? We had at least dozens or even hundreds of battlefronts at any given time during the Clone Wars, with the Republic fighting off mass CIS encroachments and vast offensive campaigns, so there's no reason that the Empire, having more resources, a larger military, and officers who've had experiance in that war in simply dividing their not inconsiderable forces. Unless Kraken is attacking thousands or tens of thousands of worlds concurrently, they're hardly going to be shitting their pants just because the enemy is attacking several targets.

At least hundreds of smaller sub fleets of hundreds of ships each, and described as being able to attack across an entire sector (indeed, engulf it) simultaneously. 3rd and 4th edition codexes describes Kraken as attacking across thousands of light years, striking worlds at random in their path. Considering that your average hive fleet can be millions, that could be many thousands or tens of thousands. Hive Fleet LEviathan, coming up upon the Imperium from the galactic plane, is indicated to be far larger.

Plus there are the Tyranid "splinter" fleets which were left over from Kraken - a mere "dozens" of ships but more numerous and striking at random throughout the Imperium.

Of course, who says they're going to automatically fight the GE the exact same way they fight the Impeirum? If anything, the Tyranids have demonstrated they are quite capable of adapting and changing their tactics to face a new threat, even when the enemy adapts HIS tactics. Is this somehow going to magically stop once they face the Empire?

[Srelex]

At least hundreds of smaller sub fleets of hundreds of ships each, and described as being able to attack across an entire sector (indeed, engulf it) simultaneously. 3rd and 4th edition codexes describes Kraken as attacking across thousands of light years, striking worlds at random in their path. Considering that your average hive fleet can be millions, that could be many thousands or tens of thousands. Hive Fleet LEviathan, coming up upon the Imperium from the galactic plane, is indicated to be far larger.

Plus there are the Tyranid "splinter" fleets which were left over from Kraken - a mere "dozens" of ships but more numerous and striking at random throughout the Imperium.

Of course, who says they're going to automatically fight the GE the exact same way they fight the Impeirum? If anything, the Tyranids have demonstrated they are quite capable of adapting and changing their tactics to face a new threat, even when the enemy adapts HIS tactics. Is this somehow going to magically stop once they face the Empire?

Well, even so, it comes down to the whole disadvantage Tyranids have in traversing space...given their limitations described earlier, even if the Empire can't immediately mount a response, it can at least be able to gather some predictions as to their targets before they strike them, and then plan accordingly, given that they should spot or detect the hivefleets crawling through space. In regards to plans, well, striking at as many targets as possible is pretty much the optimum way the hive mind will have to play this.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, even so, it comes down to the whole disadvantage Tyranids have in traversing space...given their limitations described earlier, even if the Empire can't immediately mount a response, it can at least be able to gather some predictions as to their targets before they strike them, and then plan accordingly, given that they should spot or detect the hivefleets crawling through space. In regards to plans, well, striking at as many targets as possible is pretty much the optimum way the hive mind will have to play this.

That depends entirely where they attack though, doesn't it? And the response time depends entirely on the distances fleets have to cover in order to reach a target (Targets in the core are closer to gether, thus allowing a faster response time. Targets out on the Rim are much further apart, though. Unlike in the Imperium, Sectors in the GE have no fixed boundaries so they can be larger or smaller as need be. If speed were the sole determinant factor (as some people evidently believe) then a small number of Necron Tomb worlds could totally decimate the Empir.

Secondly, I already addressed the "Hive fleets crawling through space bit." either address that directly or drop it.

Thirdly, I see yet again noone ever bothers to define just how LARGE a Tyranid force might be involved. Nor has anyone bothered to consider this debate except from a purely defensive angle. Has it occured to anyone that the Tyranids, being the offensive force, have a considerable advantagE? Particularily considering they have no actual territory for the Empire to attack? How is the Empire going to stop the threat exactly? Or did people think that it would just be able to fend off indefinitely in a war of attrition? How about resources or logistics on both sides - ever given THAT any thought? Politics and motivations? Those are ALWAYS huge factors (EG will Palpy view it as a threat, or an opportunity to expand his power against a genuine threat rather than making up invisible threats to maintain his control?)

This isn't fucking SW vs ST or SW vs the Covvies or SW vs the Tau, where the SW side holds a good many overwhelming advantages against their opponent. More thought has to be put into it than

[Srelex]

That depends entirely where they attack though, doesn't it? And the response time depends entirely on the distances fleets have to cover in order to reach a target (Targets in the core are closer to gether, thus allowing a faster response time. Targets out on the Rim are much further apart, though. Unlike in the Imperium, Sectors in the GE have no fixed boundaries so they can be larger or smaller as need be. If speed were the sole determinant factor (as some people evidently believe) then a small number of Necron Tomb worlds could totally decimate the Empir.

We can agree that the response time will be considerably more than what the Imperium can deal, at least. And speed is quite an important factor indeed--after all, if the enemy can reach you much faster than you can reach its assets, that's a problem for you.

Secondly, I already addressed the "Hive fleets crawling through space bit." either address that directly or drop it.

Was that when you referred to examples of them coming out of FTL in a system? Well, one could attribute that to the GW continuity check being staffed by monkeys, or, if we want something more sensible, perhaps just a lucky break with the warp? Either way, the general rule does seem to be that hive fleets crawl, especially judging from the recent works, and if we must accept the cases pointing otherwise than the ways for this not to be necessary are too random to be factored in, if I'm making sense. Apologies if I'm not.

Thirdly, I see yet again noone ever bothers to define just how LARGE a Tyranid force might be involved. Nor has anyone bothered to consider this debate except from a purely defensive angle. Has it occured to anyone that the Tyranids, being the offensive force, have a considerable advantagE? Particularily considering they have no actual territory for the Empire to attack? How is the Empire going to stop the threat exactly? Or did people think that it would just be able to fend off indefinitely in a war of attrition?

Actually, I would think that the defender usually has the advantage--they know the turf, they have the resources, etc. I'd imagine that ultimately it comes down to the Empire chewing up the Tyranids as they come--as technology develops, especially in the face of this new threat, pretty soon the Empire should become pretty hardened against this, assume they manage to persevere. However, we don't have precise figures for the total number of Tyranid fleets (correct me if I'm wrong), so that's pretty much what we'll have to go for. Without those, the question of how long the Empire will hold is pretty meaningless.

How about resources or logistics on both sides - ever given THAT any thought? Politics and motivations? Those are ALWAYS huge factors (EG will Palpy view it as a threat, or an opportunity to expand his power against a genuine threat rather than making up invisible threats to maintain his control?)

The Empire has the logistics advantage--the Tyranids need biomass to sustain themselves, and given time--which the Empire has--it can quite effectively deprive them of this, although, of course, this is not necesserily the case with the first waves. The new codex does, I believe, refer to Tyranid hivefleets starving and fading away as the result of being deprived of sustenance. As for politics, I'm not sure how that figures--Palps will have to appreciate this threat, and I'm sure he'll use it for political gains, but I don't know how that'll influence an Imperial military campaign.

[Srelex]

To clarify, when I was referring to the Tyranid speed in the above post, I was referring to the Tyranid cases Connor mentioned specifically.

[Bakustra]

West End Games indicated in the Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 1st Edition that the Empire controls one million full member systems, together with 50 million colonies, dependencies, and protectorates.

No, the Old Republic at its height as I remember the quote, contained that many. And it was later retconned to millions of member systems and countless colonies, protectorates, etc.

The Republic towards the end was arguably smaller.

Thank you. I had misremembered.

However, fifty-one million is incorrect, thanks to the statement in the Second Edition of the same, which indicates that the Empire controls "billions of worlds".

Billions of worlds of unknown type. You'd be better off citing the Atlas figures.

I don't have the Atlas, nor have I read it. In any case, the billions would presumably include any planet claimed by the Empire, whether or not there is a settlement there.

This fits well with the "quintillions of planets" that the Mining Guild mined in the Spiral Arms in AOTC: ICS, as many of these billions are presumably mining facilities that have only a tiny permanent population, if that, along with listening posts, temporary garrisons, and other worlds. Bear in mind that a developed system, like Coruscant, has four settled planets, as well as two settled moons, skyhooks, and other orbital stations scattered throughout the system. Most star systems will have more than one inhabited planet, especially in the Core and Colonies, where the entire habitable zone of the star is likely to be heavily populated. One can easily find billions from the 51 million permanently inhabited systems + unknown number of planets with a purely transient population.

Most planets will have fewer than 5 inhabited planets in system - at least those with "desirable" ecosystems. Corellia had 5 and was noted as being unusual (evne leading to the speculation it had been deliberately created that way)

That's primarily for developed worlds. Planets outside the habitable zone still house populations, such as Elrood, which has small habitats on two of the worlds in its system well outside the habitable zone. Of course, developed worlds with significant populations will probably be less than three per system on average (Coruscant itself is on the outer reaches of its habitable zone).

Using a more plausible number for sectors (6000), derived from the ROTS novelization, we get about 144,000 ISDs within the Sector Fleets, with a total of about 13.5 million warships within the Sector Fleets.

That assumption for sector numbers assumed 1 Senator per sector, which isn't neccesarily the case (Clone Wars campaign guide indicates Senators can represent more than just a sector, or less, depending on circumstance.)

I did not know that. Thank you.

For crying out loud... do ANY of you have these sources your quoting? Or actually consult them? Or am I the only one??? There's nothing more frustrating for me than to be dealing with people who cite sources they only vaguley remember or understand....


Oh and lets drop the point about Han. He's bene out of the Imperial military for many many MANY years now - enough time for things to change (rather the whole poitn of his disbelief in fact.) At the worst it would just suggest that

I do not have the Incredible Cross-Sections handy (obviously ) or most of my Star Wars books. All I have are the Imperial Sourcebook, the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, and the Dark Empire sourcebook.

[Connor MacLeod]

We can agree that the response time will be considerably more than what the Imperium can deal, at least.

We can agree that hyperdrive is generally faster and more reliable than Warp travel within the 40K galaxy is. Beyond that it depends on the assumptions you choose to make. If we assumed a SW sector is as big as a 40K secotr, then yeah, its a big advantage. But what if its considerably larger?

Speed is quite an important factor indeed--after all, if the enemy can reach you much faster than you can reach its assets, that's a problem for you.

It doesn't do much good to be fast if you amass a single Sector group (maybe 1600 warships total) and end up facing a hive fleet dozens of times bigger. Tyranid ships may not be as powerful as Imperium ships individually, but the disparity isn't THAT big. Or what happens when you happen to have a fair chunk of your Sector group in drydock for repairs or maintenance or just letting the crew have some downtime? Circumstances matter.

Was that when you referred to examples of them coming out of FTL in a system? Well, one could attribute that to the GW continuity check being staffed by monkeys, or, if we want something more sensible, perhaps just a lucky break with the warp?

A case that can also be made for a number of examples in Star Wars as well. Don't start playing that game because it hurts SW as much as it can 40K, if not moreso because of the two 40K tends to be FAR more consistent.

Either way, the general rule does seem to be that hive fleets crawl, especially judging from the recent works, and if we must accept the cases pointing otherwise than the ways for this not to be necessary are too random to be factored in, if I'm making sense. Apologies if I'm not.

That they choose to crawl does not mean they are FORCED to accept only that strategy. Or are you going to tell me that "not outright stated but implied from existing evidence" (EG fleet capabiliteis derived from the Death Star) only gets applied to Star Wars?

Actually, I would think that the defender usually has the advantage--they know the turf, they have the resources, etc. I'd imagine that ultimately it comes down to the Empire chewing up the Tyranids as they come--as technology develops, especially in the face of this new threat, pretty soon the Empire should become pretty hardened against this, assume they manage to persevere.

So wht happens when the Tyranids develop new tacitcs? What if, for example, they decide to hit and run worlds with small ships deploying biological plagues? It's hardly a desirable outcome but its one they certainly CAN do (It's been noted as one of their tactics before.)

And the Defender has some fairly significant disadvantages - for one thing they dont know where the enemy will ever attack. They have ot maintain some measure of readiness and awareness just in case they might attack somewhere or somehow. This remains true even if you factor in the advantages of FTL speed and communications and disregard distances traveled. No military can remain "alert" forever, not across an entire galaxy. They also have to make sure their infrastructure is secure and protected against attack - what happens if trade is disrupted, or they start losing shipyards?

OFfensively the Tyranids have some significant advantages in which they can choose when, where, and how to attack, and they ALSO are spared the necessity of having to defend territory of their own.

However, we don't have precise figures for the total number of Tyranid fleets (correct me if I'm wrong), so that's pretty much what we'll have to go for. Without those, the question of how long the Empire will hold is pretty meaningless.

We dont need to have definite figures, we just need to define a size of a fleet to have a debate. A small fleet will have a harder time (and likely have to evole different tactics) than a bigger one.

The Empire has the logistics advantage--the Tyranids need biomass to sustain themselves, and given time--which the Empire has--it can quite effectively deprive them of this, although, of course, this is not necesserily the case with the first waves.

The Empire needs biomass to "sustain itself" too. But it also needs metals and minerals and all that other stuff also (The tyranids also need some metals and minerals for their building too - they don't just take organic shit.) And I don't see the Empire denying them resources without expenditure of significant resources of their own (it will take time, effort and money to planetary shield all planets, and even then that's going to impose a fairly significant disruption of things in the galaxy, necessitating a shift in how things are done.) Unless you think the Empire is just going to start blasting inhabited worlds left and right to deny the Tyranids resources like Kryptman did.

The new codex does, I believe, refer to Tyranid hivefleets starving and fading away as the result of being deprived of sustenance. As for politics, I'm not sure how that figures--Palps will have to appreciate this threat, and I'm sure he'll use it for political gains, but I don't know how that'll influence an Imperial military campaign.

Starving and fading away over how long a period? How large a fleet? Tyranid hive fleets thus far have taken hundreds of worlds yet persisted for centuries, or little over one world annually to sustain the entire Tyranid force (we can infer, since most of the mass ever taken from a planet is sent elsewhere.)

As to how Palpy (which is just an example) might use the Tyranids - he'd try using it like the Separatists pretty much, although the extent and how long he might will depend entirely on the perceived level of threat (EG arrogance and greed can prove deterimental to anything military or economic. Look at the financial crisis and military problems the US has been in for the better part of the past decade or so due to arrogance and shortsighted stupidity.)

[Connor MacLeod]

That's primarily for developed worlds. Planets outside the habitable zone still house populations, such as Elrood, which has small habitats on two of the worlds in its system well outside the habitable zone. Of course, developed worlds with significant populations will probably be less than three per system on average (Coruscant itself is on the outer reaches of its habitable zone).

Small habitats are unlikely to compare significantly to the overall picture when faced with billions of worlds, unless the Empire routinely builds massive underground cities for inhabitants the way the Imperium is known to.

[Bakustra]

That's primarily for developed worlds. Planets outside the habitable zone still house populations, such as Elrood, which has small habitats on two of the worlds in its system well outside the habitable zone. Of course, developed worlds with significant populations will probably be less than three per system on average (Coruscant itself is on the outer reaches of its habitable zone).

Small habitats are unlikely to compare significantly to the overall picture when faced with billions of worlds, unless the Empire routinely builds massive underground cities for inhabitants the way the Imperium is known to.

I'm not talking about population, though. Small worlds with a habitat dropped on still count towards permanently settled worlds, even if they have a permanent population of 100 staff members and it's an executive retreat. They are statistically insignificant populationwise, but help cut down on the total number of planets. In addition, a large proportion of the billions are likely planets like Hoth and Anoat which are claimed by the Empire as territory but not necessarily controlled, or uninhabitable planets, if the wording allows for that (forgive me, but I don't have the rulebook at hand). That would significantly cut down on the billions.

[Srelex]

It doesn't do much good to be fast if you amass a single Sector group (maybe 1600 warships total) and end up facing a hive fleet dozens of times bigger. Tyranid ships may not be as powerful as Imperium ships individually, but the disparity isn't THAT big. Or what happens when you happen to have a fair chunk of your Sector group in drydock for repairs or maintenance or just letting the crew have some downtime? Circumstances matter.

Then you pull ships from the sector next door. Hyperdrive can cross good chunks of the galaxy in hours, after all--now, I know the question is actually preparing and prepping the taskforce, but the chances are that there'll be some ships available. How many, as you say, depends.

That they choose to crawl does not mean they are FORCED to accept only that strategy. Or are you going to tell me that "not outright stated but implied from existing evidence" (EG fleet capabiliteis derived from the Death Star) only gets applied to Star Wars?

Could you clarify, please? Are you trying to say that the Tyranids choose to go at a snail's pace?

So wht happens when the Tyranids develop new tacitcs? What if, for example, they decide to hit and run worlds with small ships deploying biological plagues? It's hardly a desirable outcome but its one they certainly CAN do (It's been noted as one of their tactics before.)

And the Defender has some fairly significant disadvantages - for one thing they dont know where the enemy will ever attack. They have ot maintain some measure of readiness and awareness just in case they might attack somewhere or somehow. This remains true even if you factor in the advantages of FTL speed and communications and disregard distances traveled. No military can remain "alert" forever, not across an entire galaxy. They also have to make sure their infrastructure is secure and protected against attack - what happens if trade is disrupted, or they start losing shipyards?

OFfensively the Tyranids have some significant advantages in which they can choose when, where, and how to attack, and they ALSO are spared the necessity of having to defend territory of their own.

As mentioned earlier, if the Tyranids have to travel weeks in sublight, then even if they do start playing fancy tactics they do play the risk of being spotted and intercepted. Now, even if we accept that this is not necesserily the case, then the Empire can still initiate mass fortification of all that needs to be fortified, if the situation gets desperate. It is possible for entire planets to be shielded--the 2002 Clone Wars game, as an example off the top of my head--so that should at least deny Tyranid spores.

We dont need to have definite figures, we just need to define a size of a fleet to have a debate. A small fleet will have a harder time (and likely have to evole different tactics) than a bigger one.

Well, by the OP it's the hivefleets in or attacking the 40k galaxy currently. I guess that's a start.

The Empire needs biomass to "sustain itself" too. But it also needs metals and minerals and all that other stuff also (The tyranids also need some metals and minerals for their building too - they don't just take organic shit.) And I don't see the Empire denying them resources without expenditure of significant resources of their own (it will take time, effort and money to planetary shield all planets, and even then that's going to impose a fairly significant disruption of things in the galaxy, necessitating a shift in how things are done.) Unless you think the Empire is just going to start blasting inhabited worlds left and right to deny the Tyranids resources like Kryptman did.

Wait--Tyranids need metals? Could you provide an example? Not that I'm calling bullshit, but I'm just curious as to how this works. And while it may be expensive for the Empire to mass fortify world, I'm sure they'd recognize that the expense is worth it. As for blasting planets, well, let's face it, with Palps around, that wouldn't be too out of character for the Empire.

Starving and fading away over how long a period? How large a fleet? Tyranid hive fleets thus far have taken hundreds of worlds yet persisted for centuries, or little over one world annually to sustain the entire Tyranid force (we can infer, since most of the mass ever taken from a planet is sent elsewhere.)

As to how Palpy (which is just an example) might use the Tyranids - he'd try using it like the Separatists pretty much, although the extent and how long he might will depend entirely on the perceived level of threat (EG arrogance and greed can prove deterimental to anything military or economic. Look at the financial crisis and military problems the US has been in for the better part of the past decade or so due to arrogance and shortsighted stupidity.)

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was a medium fleet, which starved over decades or centuries. As I'm recalling from vague memory, don't take this at face value. In regards to Palpatines, yes, I agree he may well use the Nids for his own benefit, but I don't think he'd be such a retard as to deliberately let them overrun parts of the Empire.

[Simon_Jester]

That depends entirely where they attack though, doesn't it? And the response time depends entirely on the distances fleets have to cover in order to reach a target (Targets in the core are closer to gether, thus allowing a faster response time. Targets out on the Rim are much further apart, though. Unlike in the Imperium, Sectors in the GE have no fixed boundaries so they can be larger or smaller as need be. If speed were the sole determinant factor (as some people evidently believe) then a small number of Necron Tomb worlds could totally decimate the Empire.

Given the way the Necrons are set up in the storyline, I wouldn't be surprised if that was the official Games Workshop position... but since I suppose it isn't, you definitely have a point. Speed helps a lot, especially if it's combined with qualitative superiority, but if the qualitative edge is small or nonexistent it becomes a lot less important, I agree.

Thirdly, I see yet again noone ever bothers to define just how LARGE a Tyranid force might be involved. Nor has anyone bothered to consider this debate except from a purely defensive angle. Has it occured to anyone that the Tyranids, being the offensive force, have a considerable advantagE? Particularily considering they have no actual territory for the Empire to attack? How is the Empire going to stop the threat exactly? Or did people think that it would just be able to fend off indefinitely in a war of attrition? How about resources or logistics on both sides - ever given THAT any thought? Politics and motivations? Those are ALWAYS huge factors (EG will Palpy view it as a threat, or an opportunity to expand his power against a genuine threat rather than making up invisible threats to maintain his control)

This isn't fucking SW vs ST or SW vs the Covvies or SW vs the Tau, where the SW side holds a good many overwhelming advantages against their opponent. More thought has to be put into it than

Yes. You're right. It would more or less have to be a war of attrition on the Empire's side, because the Tyranid attack seems to be coming in a long stream- the first major fleet-strength attacks are coming centuries ahead of the main body. The Empire could probably meet the first wave without too much trouble assuming it got advance warning, but it might not; and I agree, Force help them if they didn't realize there was a problem until the main body had already arrived.

Reference point: An Earth-like planet should have something close to 1000 billion tons of biomass; this book gives a figure of around 750 billion tons for Earth. That should be at least vaguely useful for determining the total tonnage threat; given an estimate of the tonnage ratio the Empire needs to beat Tyranids in space (1:1? 1:10?), and assuming that Tyranids eat everything on the planet (as they are often described as doing), that gives us a place to start.

For crying out loud... do ANY of you have these sources your quoting? Or actually consult them? Or am I the only one??? There's nothing more frustrating for me than to be dealing with people who cite sources they only vaguley remember or understand...

Sorry. I try not to insist on anything I can't look up in person, and there's a lot of stuff I can't look up in person. I really don't mean to push anyone on this issue.

Then again, you seem to be the lead analyst for 40k here, and you definitely know more about the Empire's setup than I do. So: what do you think of my opinion? I am under the impression that that the Imperium of Man is more heavily militarized than the Galactic Empire in terms of ship numbers and/or aggregate ship tonnage. Do you consider this this likely? Perhaps merely plausible? Not even plausible?

More likely they'll have luck in the isolated segments - extragalactic clusters, the unknown regions nad outer rim before they move on towards the Core. The Core of the GE is almost totally protected by starships and palnetary shields and none but the most massive hive fleet assaults could hope to make a dent in it. On the other hand, they need things from the outer rim (such as resources, and a fair chunk of industry can be locate d out there) so losing the outer Rim to the Tyranids can hamper them as well.

I agree; what I'm saying is that the farther out the Empire meets the Tyranids the better, and the less chance that they'll build up the mass to overwhelm fortified worlds.

Depends on how fast they choose to accelerate. Imperial vessels can cover the in-system distances in hours or days (DoW2 in fact is one example of this, as are the ghosts novels, Ravenor and eisenhorn, etc.) Tyranid ships have never shown an accelerative disadvantage compared to the Imperium either. (I'd also note that hours or days is roughly the timeframe SW ships can take to travel in system. While not required to do so, its hardly uncommon.)

True. On the other hand, I'd think they would make short, high-acceleration STL approaches to planets when they got the chance, rather than a more leisurely one. Am I getting something wrong here? Do they commonly make a quick approach? Yes, there are cases where they do it, but there's a difference between individual cases and a general policy.

Why? The whole point of the Death Star is to be the ultimate weapon - something so big, and powerful that it could conceivably overwhelm any "practical" force an enemy could amass against it. By definition it OUGHT to overpower anything it meets, up to and including an entire starfleet. Same thing for the DS2 (which could overpower a large number of DS1s itself!)

Agreed. That's kind of what I'm getting at: the Death Star could reasonably outmass the Starfleet, and the Starfleet doesn't seem to contain a Death Star's worth of armed mobile tonnage, or even anything close. It still seems a little odd to me that even someone like Palpatine would make such a massive surge in the total firepower at his command all in one go, but by no means impossible.

And yes, I know I'm ignoring fleet bases and transports; I'm doing it on purpose because because I'm talking about armed mobile platforms, and only those. I am in no position to compare the relative strength of the fleet support trains of the two settings.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

According to IIRC Black Fleet Crisis and Cracken's Threat Dossier, the Empire maintained quite a few shipyards in every sector they had (At least two major and a number of minor IIRC) - much of which could build warships including ISDs. This is in addition to the numerous companies like KDY that can build warships in and of themselves. Shipyards aren't the problem.

Oh I have no doubts the Empire could build up and maintain a million strong fleet.

I do however have doubts the Galactic Republic can possibly build a million strong fleet within the time span of the Clone wars. Likely these are existing planetary fleets which until the Clone Wars are largely owned by planetary governments and have no affliation to the Grand Army of the Republic, which can range from meager, to large (of which few worlds even in the Core have such luxury).

True, but much of that is already in place, and its not like you can't start while you mobilize the rest. At the absolute "worst" it takes a matter of decades perhaps (and thats allowing some interruptions and that its in secret)

Well, this is a Galactic Republic which has largely demobilized its war production. Starting it up again, and producing things like armor plating takes time. Probably a year at least.

Perhaps, but the GE can build ISDs well within a year (TFU novelization). Hell, the mon Cals can build a Mon Calamari cruiser (close to ISD level capability in most ways) in about 6 months.

Of which I have no doubt. But the Clone Wars lasted 3 years at best.

Ah, yes, the 25,000 number that came from Pellaeon, that astute economist (as well as mouthpiece for ultra-minimalist author Timothy Zahn) who also thought that the construction of a single Super Star Destroyer nearly bankrupted the Empire and who was canonically considered incompetent and/or dishonest by his superiors, hence his lack of promotion for decades until he went warlord and fled from Endor. Next we will surely hear how the Republic only ever deployed three million clones at once in the Clone Wars. Considering the WEG order of battle from the Imperial Sourcebook, as well as he fact that Super Star Destroyers were commonly used as Sector-level command ships, that number is untenable at best. Either it is total crap, or it must be reinterpreted somehow (e.g., it actually referred to the production run of the ISD-I model only, and if so that one must then have been comparatively rare).

And until a better source comes along, we have only estimates at best, and assumptions on how fast and how quickly the Empire can build up its navy within the 20 year span of time.

Yes, it is terribly difficult to raise a force to crew millions in a galaxy inhabited by quadrillions of people. Assuming that these "millions" of ships were actually a hundred million and all required ISD-equivalent crew numbers, this yields, somewhat rounded, three point seven trillion officers and crew. Which, according to Saxton's low-ball estimates for Coruscant, is at most a single percent of said planet's population. This is a smaller fraction of the population than most militaries on Earth employ today in peacetime, never mind a major war, and as noted this assumes that all naval recruitment is done on Coruscant.

And just who the fuck is going to find the instructors to train them? You seem to think you can magic up the instructors necessary to train the whole fucking lot, especially for a galaxy that has rarely seen war for the last few decades to a hundred years. Instead we see that clones were relied upon to crew many of the Republic's warships.

Which is why the DS-II was built in situ in a matter of months, with no on-site infrastructure except what the Imperials brought or built from scratch as they went along . . . Oh, wait.

With most of its components likely assembled offsite in established infrastructure and brought in for installation.

Are you here implying that smaller-scale reactors suitable for warships were somehow a rare and undeveloped technology even remotely comparable to the totally unprecedented scale of the DS-I? This is a non-argument if ever there was one.

Prior to the Death Star, no one has ever built such a huge hypermatter reactor which probably took up the bulk of the engineering work. Scaling up reactors is by no means a walk of the park engineering, unless you suggest so.

[PainRack]

And just who the fuck is going to find the instructors to train them? You seem to think you can magic up the instructors necessary to train the whole fucking lot, especially for a galaxy that has rarely seen war for the last few decades to a hundred years. Instead we see that clones were relied upon to crew many of the Republic's warships.

No. The Clone Wars had normal sentients manning the Navy ships, only Accalamators, Venators and certain other warships received clone crewmen and gunners.
The known Navy starfighter corps was underrepresented in the known fiction though.

With most of its components likely assembled offsite in established infrastructure and brought in for installation.

Shadows of the Empire established that what they brought in was raw materials. Tales of the Bounty Hunter and etc establish that they only brought in certain critical items such as the computers and superlaser.

[PainRack]

We can agree that hyperdrive is generally faster and more reliable than Warp travel within the 40K galaxy is. Beyond that it depends on the assumptions you choose to make. If we assumed a SW sector is as big as a 40K secotr, then yeah, its a big advantage. But what if its considerably larger?

So? Codex Necrons establish that it took a Sister 1 year in her time, 6 years in real time to travel across the universe to reach Sanctuary 101.
Darth Maul, Obiwan and co did it within a day, days at most.

So wht happens when the Tyranids develop new tacitcs? What if, for example, they decide to hit and run worlds with small ships deploying biological plagues? It's hardly a desirable outcome but its one they certainly CAN do (It's been noted as one of their tactics before.)

Then they're expending valuable bio-material, fuel and etc without harvest.

And the Defender has some fairly significant disadvantages - for one thing they dont know where the enemy will ever attack. They have ot maintain some measure of readiness and awareness just in case they might attack somewhere or somehow. This remains true even if you factor in the advantages of FTL speed and communications and disregard distances traveled. No military can remain "alert" forever, not across an entire galaxy. They also have to make sure their infrastructure is secure and protected against attack - what happens if trade is disrupted, or they start losing shipyards?

SW has FTL sensors. If nothing else, the Shadow in the Warp allows for Sith/Jedi to locate the Tyrannids and respond in kind. The Imperium has used such tactics against the Nids before, assuming its a short range detection, the relative scarcity of pyschics in the GE can be compensated for with superior speed, comns and sensors.

OFfensively the Tyranids have some significant advantages in which they can choose when, where, and how to attack, and they ALSO are spared the necessity of having to defend territory of their own.

If they sit in space for months before begining their attack....... they're screwed. If its along the older fluff such as how they would savage the world within 100 days, that's another issue altogether.

The Empire needs biomass to "sustain itself" too. But it also needs metals and minerals and all that other stuff also (The tyranids also need some metals and minerals for their building too - they don't just take organic shit.) And I don't see the Empire denying them resources without expenditure of significant resources of their own (it will take time, effort and money to planetary shield all planets, and even then that's going to impose a fairly significant disruption of things in the galaxy, necessitating a shift in how things are done.) Unless you think the Empire is just going to start blasting inhabited worlds left and right to deny the Tyranids resources like Kryptman did.

defences as strong as any core world suggest that many Core worlds do have planetary shields. As for denying resources, the existence of BDZ against what is essentially an insurgency argues that the Empire could and would do such an order if they realise the significance of doing so.

As to how Palpy (which is just an example) might use the Tyranids - he'd try using it like the Separatists pretty much, although the extent and how long he might will depend entirely on the perceived level of threat (EG arrogance and greed can prove deterimental to anything military or economic. Look at the financial crisis and military problems the US has been in for the better part of the past decade or so due to arrogance and shortsighted stupidity.)

Except the Empire has been significantly under-militarised, this even as the Empire has pushed the corporate development of new worlds, mining resources and etc. Nationalisation "may" push economic factors down, but they will increase the planned capabilities of the state in responding to a military threat.

[Simon_Jester]

So wht happens when the Tyranids develop new tacitcs? What if, for example, they decide to hit and run worlds with small ships deploying biological plagues? It's hardly a desirable outcome but its one they certainly CAN do (It's been noted as one of their tactics before.)

Then they're expending valuable bio-material, fuel and etc without harvest.

Just a side note:
PainRack, remember that they get hundreds of billions of tons of biomass per high-grade planet (probably lower on less habitable planets). They can afford to expend a lot of materiel and still come out ahead, if it softens up the enemy defenses.

[Bakustra]

defences as strong as any core world suggest that many Core worlds do have planetary shields. As for denying resources, the existence of BDZ against what is essentially an insurgency argues that the Empire could and would do such an order if they realise the significance of doing so.

The exact quote is "defenses as strong as any in the Empire." This means that the most heavily defended worlds would have an Alderaan-grade shield, not that such shields are common, per se. In addition, there are a number of Outer Rim and Mid-Rim worlds, at the least, that lack planetary shields and have large amounts of biomass for the Tyranids to consume.

[Ryan Thunder]

We can agree that hyperdrive is generally faster and more reliable than Warp travel within the 40K galaxy is. Beyond that it depends on the assumptions you choose to make. If we assumed a SW sector is as big as a 40K secotr, then yeah, its a big advantage. But what if its considerably larger?

So? Codex Necrons establish that it took a Sister 1 year in her time, 6 years in real time to travel across the universe to reach Sanctuary 101.
Darth Maul, Obiwan and co did it within a day, days at most.

If I recall correctly, the speed of Warp travel is highly unreliable. There have been instances where fleets have arrived decades or centuries after they left.

[Shroom Man 777]

In the Eisenhorn and Gaunt books, there was once a young Interrogator who had his face eaten off and he eventually became a crazy Inquisitor with a deformed mug. His career and his face-ripping-off began in the Eisenhorn books, and he got killed in the Gaunt novels. The events in Eisenhorn were chronologically dated after the Gaunt books. If I recall correctly.

[fgalkin]

Shroomy, you're off by like 4 centuries in the opposite direction. Eisenhorn/Ravenor happened in the 300s M41, IIRC, the Sabbat Worlds Crusade was in the 700s. Hell, there was a character in the books reading Ravenor's Spheres of Longing.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Connor MacLeod]

Then you pull ships from the sector next door. Hyperdrive can cross good chunks of the galaxy in hours, after all--now, I know the question is actually preparing and prepping the taskforce, but the chances are that there'll be some ships available. How many, as you say, depends.

Which works as long as the sectors you pull ships from don't get attacked, as they are left vulnerable. Finite resources and all that. There's also the drawback that, depending on how far away you pull them from, you're cutting into your fuel supplies with the hyperdrive jump (hyperdrive is a fairly energy intensive feat, even if it is less so than most sublight propulsion. Hell using hyperwave alone requires stellar power levels as per the AOTC ICS.)

Could you clarify, please? Are you trying to say that the Tyranids choose to go at a snail's pace?

Sure. Aside from the psychological benefit upon the enemy (consider the terror Tyranids inspire), the Tyranids usually have no reason to rush when invading a 40K world - there's nothing the Enemy can do to escape them now is there?

Besides, as I pointed out, Imperial ships and Tyranid ships often clash, and the former have never demonstrated an ability to run circles around the latter. Indeed, the Battle of Macragge had Imperial ships able to cross system-wide distances in a matter of hours - yet in one of several cases where the Tyranids move away from Imperial ships the Imperials do not rapidly or easily overtake them. Indeed, the Tyranids are mentioned as being able to overtake Imperial ships in a few cases.

As mentioned earlier, if the Tyranids have to travel weeks in sublight, then even if they do start playing fancy tactics they do play the risk of being spotted and intercepted. Now, even if we accept that this is not necesserily the case, then the Empire can still initiate mass fortification of all that needs to be fortified, if the situation gets desperate. It is possible for entire planets to be shielded--the 2002 Clone Wars game, as an example off the top of my head--so that should at least deny Tyranid spores.

Yes, they could. But how extensive are you thinking? And how much will it ocst? how long to construct? Will this detract from their industrial capability or shipping elsewhere? How does this change the scope of things on the galactic scale (IE commerce, communications, etc.) Besides, there's still the "fortiifcations have limits" I already mentioned - SW can't just go turtle under their shields (it will affect weather and climate for one, and there is the issues of supplies for another) and it doesnt address orbital facilities (What about Shipyards? What about holonet/hyperwave relays? you can't beam a transmission through a shield, you know.) Again, its a viable tactic, but its not going ot automatically be a game winner.

Well, by the OP it's the hivefleets in or attacking the 40k galaxy currently. I guess that's a start.

That could mean any number of hive fleets - dozens or more even (RT 1st Edition IIRC said there were at least thirteen hive fleets as I remember.)

Wait--Tyranids need metals? Could you provide an example? Not that I'm calling bullshit, but I'm just curious as to how this works. And while it may be expensive for the Empire to mass fortify world, I'm sure they'd recognize that the expense is worth it. As for blasting planets, well, let's face it, with Palps around, that wouldn't be too out of character for the Empire.

The Tyranoforming article I linked to earlier (page 3 I think) - mentions them taking a huge chunk of material off the surface of the planet (some quadrillions of tons IIRC) - soil and minerals, which is going to include metals. The planet Tyran, the first place ever attacked, was also mentioned as being noticibly smaller in diameter than it was supposed to. Other sources have mentioned it as well (The most recent I recall is Black Tide, where it implies Tyranid forms used trace elements of heavy metals in armor and fangs/tusks/whatnot.) It makes some sense, since they use silicates in their composition as well (and humans have trace elements of iron in our bodies as well, so its hardl ysurprising they woudl need at least SOME. Besides, considering how fucking huge some - like bio-titans get, you'd expect something metal or metal like to explain how they hold up without falling in on itself.)

As for fortifying, how can you be so sure? Humanity in real life has shown an astonishingly poor capacity to see what is "worthwhile" to them or prevent harms if it is long term. Look at how the economy got fucked up from decades of cheap credit, or the simple inability of the US to get decent health care. I would not just blithely assume they can easily and effectively just "fort up" every inhabited world in the galaxy (which they'd pretty much have to do). And even if they can, how long can they hold out that way, and in what ways will this siege mentality affect matters on the galactic scale (points I have already pointed out a number of times before.)

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly, but I believe it was a medium fleet, which starved over decades or centuries. As I'm recalling from vague memory, don't take this at face value. In regards to Palpatines, yes, I agree he may well use the Nids for his own benefit, but I don't think he'd be such a retard as to deliberately let them overrun parts of the Empire.

Palpatine hasn't demonstrated the greatest competence when it comes to military matters or his Empire before - especially LATER in his life. The entire ROTJ to Dark Empire arc is a testament to his madness in many respects (he's not exactly sane by this time.) We're talking about a man who let the entire Empire basically fall apart at the seams, and actively HELPED it in some ways, just so he could maintain power. I'm not taking stupidity for granted with him, but you clearly cannot discount it, unless you're operating on the assumption he WILL behave intelligently or cautiously (in which case we can extend the same courtesy to the Tyranids.)

[Srelex]

Sure. Aside from the psychological benefit upon the enemy (consider the terror Tyranids inspire), the Tyranids usually have no reason to rush when invading a 40K world - there's nothing the Enemy can do to escape them now is there?

Besides, as I pointed out, Imperial ships and Tyranid ships often clash, and the former have never demonstrated an ability to run circles around the latter. Indeed, the Battle of Macragge had Imperial ships able to cross system-wide distances in a matter of hours - yet in one of several cases where the Tyranids move away from Imperial ships the Imperials do not rapidly or easily overtake them. Indeed, the Tyranids are mentioned as being able to overtake Imperial ships in a few cases.

I'm skeptical that if it has the choice between fast or slow, the hive mind is going for slow. Considering how methodical the Tyranids like to be, I'm sure they'd accelerate the process if anything. Furthermore, Imperium ships are somewhat sluggish--well, I admit it does vary--and it could come down to the insane variation that hiveships have.

Yes, they could. But how extensive are you thinking? And how much will it ocst? how long to construct? Will this detract from their industrial capability or shipping elsewhere? How does this change the scope of things on the galactic scale (IE commerce, communications, etc.) Besides, there's still the "fortiifcations have limits" I already mentioned - SW can't just go turtle under their shields (it will affect weather and climate for one, and there is the issues of supplies for another) and it doesnt address orbital facilities (What about Shipyards? What about holonet/hyperwave relays? you can't beam a transmission through a shield, you know.) Again, its a viable tactic, but its not going ot automatically be a game winner.

Well, in the game I mentioned, all it took was one generator to apparently envelop an entire world, but said generator was positioned on its orbiting moon. However, I think there are examples of generators doing such a thing whilst remaining on the world they're enveloping--either way, I'd think that a planetary shield generator network could easily be built with the resources of its own planet, but of course facilities are the question, and this is a hard thing to address. As for weather, I'm doubtful about that, as it does appear that air and atmosphere does pass through it, otherwise we'd have troops suffocating on Hoth.

The Tyranoforming article I linked to earlier (page 3 I think) - mentions them taking a huge chunk of material off the surface of the planet (some quadrillions of tons IIRC) - soil and minerals, which is going to include metals. The planet Tyran, the first place ever attacked, was also mentioned as being noticibly smaller in diameter than it was supposed to. Other sources have mentioned it as well (The most recent I recall is Black Tide, where it implies Tyranid forms used trace elements of heavy metals in armor and fangs/tusks/whatnot.) It makes some sense, since they use silicates in their composition as well (and humans have trace elements of iron in our bodies as well, so its hardl ysurprising they woudl need at least SOME. Besides, considering how fucking huge some - like bio-titans get, you'd expect something metal or metal like to explain how they hold up without falling in on itself.)

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the info. As for bio-titans, considering the biowank the Tyranids are subject to as it is, I always just imagined incredibly strong muscle fiber.

As for fortifying, how can you be so sure? Humanity in real life has shown an astonishingly poor capacity to see what is "worthwhile" to them or prevent harms if it is long term. Look at how the economy got fucked up from decades of cheap credit, or the simple inability of the US to get decent health care. I would not just blithely assume they can easily and effectively just "fort up" every inhabited world in the galaxy (which they'd pretty much have to do). And even if they can, how long can they hold out that way, and in what ways will this siege mentality affect matters on the galactic scale (points I have already pointed out a number of times before.)

Humanity, maybe...but remember, we're not just talking humans here. I'll admit that fortifying every single world is a bit of an undertaking, to say the fucking least, but we can agree that it can be done effectively for the ones that matter. And then again, not all species will be as unresiliant as humies are. However, if the Empire manages to work out in which direction the hive fleets are coming in, it could perhaps isolate which worlds need to be built up--after all, there are some places in the 40k galaxy that the Tyranids aren't visiting any time soon.

Palpatine hasn't demonstrated the greatest competence when it comes to military matters or his Empire before - especially LATER in his life. The entire ROTJ to Dark Empire arc is a testament to his madness in many respects (he's not exactly sane by this time.) We're talking about a man who let the entire Empire basically fall apart at the seams, and actively HELPED it in some ways, just so he could maintain power. I'm not taking stupidity for granted with him, but you clearly cannot discount it, unless you're operating on the assumption he WILL behave intelligently or cautiously (in which case we can extend the same courtesy to the Tyranids.)

Ah, but you must remember, one of the reasons he built up the Empire in the first place was the threat of the Vong. It's no stretch to assume that Palps may even assume the Tyranids to be the Vong themselves. Now, of course, we don't know how he would have acted in the event of the Vong coming, but it is safe to assume that even if he doesn't act perfectly competent 100% of the time, he will at least try and ensure the sanctity of the Empire.

[Connor MacLeod]

So? Codex Necrons establish that it took a Sister 1 year in her time, 6 years in real time to travel across the universe to reach Sanctuary 101.
Darth Maul, Obiwan and co did it within a day, days at most.

Yes, in the 40K galaxy. Where the warp is all kinds of fucked up. Is there some reason to believe the Warp in SW would be exactly the same? I don't remember Chaos Gods existing in the Star Wars galaxy. And even then, surely you aren't assuming Darth Maul and the Falcon (or for that matter Jedi Starfighters) represent "typical speeds" as opposed to being an order of magnitude (or so) benchmark of the capabilities of hyperdrive?

Then they're expending valuable bio-material, fuel and etc without harvest.

Well yes, I'm pretty sure the Tyranids didn't magically gain the ability to invent matter and energy out of nowhere, so they have to expend stuff to get it (although whether they use "fuel" or in what manner is up for debate aside from being "magical". Is there some reason we should assume that such efforts automatically end in failure?

SW has FTL sensors.

So does 40K. They're all psychic or waped based, while SW are tachyonic and subspace. Your point?

If nothing else, the Shadow in the Warp allows for Sith/Jedi to locate the Tyrannids and respond in kind.

Er, what evidence d you have the JEdi acn actually detect the Shadow in the Warp? They aren't connected ot the warp, and if they were, that wouldnt be a good thing.

The Imperium has used such tactics against the Nids before, assuming its a short range detection, the relative scarcity of pyschics in the GE can be compensated for with superior speed, comns and sensors.

To an extent? Yes they can, although its hardly an unbeatable advantage. FTL sensors will rely on active sensing rather than passive for one thing, and active sensors like comm transmissions can be blocked (like hyperdrive they are realspace phenomena.) They can do it to an extent, although extensive use of hyperwave carries the dangers of depleting fuel reserves (as does hyperspace) depending on how fast and how long it's used and the quality of the gear in question.)

If they sit in space for months before begining their attack....... they're screwed. If its along the older fluff such as how they would savage the world within 100 days, that's another issue altogether.

Are you talking about consuming the world's resources?

The Empire needs biomass to "sustain itself" too. But it also needs metals and minerals and all that other stuff also (The tyranids also need some metals and minerals for their building too - they don't just take organic shit.) And I don't see the Empire denying them resources without expenditure of significant resources of their own (it will take time, effort and money to planetary shield all planets, and even then that's going to impose a fairly significant disruption of things in the galaxy, necessitating a shift in how things are done.) Unless you think the Empire is just going to start blasting inhabited worlds left and right to deny the Tyranids resources like Kryptman did.

defences as strong as any core world suggest that many Core worlds do have planetary shields. As for denying resources, the existence of BDZ against what is essentially an insurgency argues that the Empire could and would do such an order if they realise the significance of doing so.

As to how Palpy (which is just an example) might use the Tyranids - he'd try using it like the Separatists pretty much, although the extent and how long he might will depend entirely on the perceived level of threat (EG arrogance and greed can prove deterimental to anything military or economic. Look at the financial crisis and military problems the US has been in for the better part of the past decade or so due to arrogance and shortsighted stupidity.)

Except the Empire has been significantly under-militarised, this even as the Empire has pushed the corporate development of new worlds, mining resources and etc. Nationalisation "may" push economic factors down, but they will increase the planned capabilities of the state in responding to a military threat.[/quote]