What SW infantry weapons could bring down a Space Marine?

[Srelex]

In general, nothing really man portable I.E operated by one man in the SW universe does much to a Spessh Muhreen
By itself that is. If you want to take down Mr Space Marine fast , figure on hitting him with a target designator and then calling for artillery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA2cT3rdoRs

2.30. That tank, according to the ICS, has armor over four inches thick, and yet is consumed in an explosion that consumes the troops around it by one missile. I think a Space Marine might have his work cut out here.

[takemeout_totheblack]

A spear thrown by an Olympic-class athelete or an trained spearman will arrive at the target with substantially more force than one thrown by Ms Strawberry Shortcake.

The speartips might be some ultra-dense stuff or some other magical metal in SW

The spears don't have tips. They look to be sharpened sticks, the Wookiepedia page has some pictures from the comic of Amanin wielding said spears.

Perhaps that particular batch of armor was faulty. Or the 'wood' is something else. In fact, judging by those pics on Wookieepedia, those Amanin are huge, and so are their spears. As Avatar demonstrated, big spears, sufficient force, body armor not going to matter much...

Anyway, let's get back to the original topic.

Oh yes! Because Avatar is a paragon of hard science and logic! In response to your other point, the Amanin aren't that big. Even if they have some alien biology that allows them to throw extra hard they are still organic; carbon-based by the look of their surroundings and environment, and therefore shouldn't be able to generate the kind of force necessary to pierce armor supposedly capable of stopping modern assault rifle ordinance!
Even if the spears weren't made of wood, it's still ridiculous! A spear made of depleted uranium and diamonds thrown by a grizzly bear couldn't penetrate armor grade steel for the same reason that a bullet can! The energy just isn't there! Now either the protective abilities of Storm Trooper armor have been seriously exaggerated or this is yet another case of Endor Syndrome, i.e. the spontaneous enfeebling of armor because of The Force or something.

In any case, I asked this question to get some numbers on Storm Trooper armor, so that I could segue into weapon power and therefore judge the whole Space Marine vs Storm Trooper issue in a more numerically stable light. For the betterment of the thread really.

[Srelex]

Oh yes! Because Avatar is a paragon of hard science and logic!

Point still stands; but I digress, as there is a wide discrepency between what is being dealt with, admittedly.

And again, have you not considered that the armor given to that selection of troopers was defective? Yeah, that's a little bit of a stretch, I know, but it's as valid as anything...

[Balrog]

Not that big? Amanin are two to three meters tall according to Wookiepedia; that's about as big as the Na'vi, making them quite a bit larger than Stormtroopers. These aren't regular cavemen chucking these spears.

And armor penetration, AFAIK, has less to do with kinetic energy and more to do with force, or the application of enough pressure in a small area. So you don't need to launch something particularly fast if it is massive enough and it's concentrated to a sufficient point.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Oh yes! Because Avatar is a paragon of hard science and logic!

Point still stands; but I digress, as there is a wide discrepency between what is being dealt with, admittedly.

And again, have you not considered that the armor given to that selection of troopers was defective? Yeah, that's a little bit of a stretch, I know, but it's as valid as anything...

I'm fairly certain that if that were the issue it would have been addressed in the comic's epilogue, when some imperial officials were going over the losses of men and machinery, causes of casualties, and the dubious field promotion of the main character (unrelated to the topic, but it really was a good ending, very cynical). If the armor was defective, I'm pretty sure that would have been a front and center issue, since it's not often that the Empire gets trounced by a bunch of stick wielding primitives!
oh, wait...

Point countered: canonic contradiction of rebuttal.
Again I would like to have a few numbers on SW weaponry so that I can approach the SM vs ST issue from a more factual standpoint.

[Srelex]

]

I'm fairly certain that if that were the issue it would have been addressed in the comic's epilogue, when some imperial officials were going over the losses of men and machinery, causes of casualties, and the dubious field promotion of the main character (unrelated to the topic, but it really was a good ending, very cynical). If the armor was defective, I'm pretty sure that would have been a front and center issue, since it's not often that the Empire gets trounced by a bunch of stick wielding primitives!
oh, wait...

Apologies; I haven't read the comic, so forgive me for any assumptions I might make.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Not that big? Amanin are two to three meters tall according to Wookiepedia; that's about as big as the Na'vi, making them quite a bit larger than Stormtroopers. These aren't regular cavemen chucking these spears.

And armor penetration, AFAIK, has less to do with kinetic energy and more to do with force, or the application of enough pressure in a small area. So you don't need to launch something particularly fast if it is massive enough and it's concentrated to a sufficient point.

What? Is 'force' a new unit of measure? I assume you mean the 'momentum', which, once an impactee in the equation, is commonly known as kinetic energy. A non-heat weapon's effectiveness is directly related to KE transfer.
Look, unless those spears are traveling an appreciable percentage of Mach 1 they just aren't going to have the penetrating power of a bullet, regardless of sharpness. The average assault rifle round isn't dull! They're quite pointy in fact, for the exact reason you make: smaller area+sufficient energy=fucked target.

But, if the claims are true, a Stormtrooper's armor is supposed to be able to render 'slugthrowers' obsolete and, if they perform as claimed, a spear chucked by a ten foot slug, no matter the muscle power, isn't going to do much more than knock the wearer on his/her arse!

And yet, conflicts like Endor and Maridun (and the Yinchorii campaign, but I won't get into that) see massive casualties and embarrassingly high costs per victory if there even is one!

You are right, massive objects don't need to be moving very fast to do damage, but KE is KE, there's no getting around the fact that the object with more KE is the more deadly one. A bullet is hundreds of times smaller than a spear, but because it's going so much faster it has Kilojoules of KE behind it and that is going to make up for it's relative dullness and low mass. The spears, which appear wooden, can't be going nearly that fast, as the energy needed to accelerate an object that size to even a fraction of Mach would be tremendous for a lifeform! It would be like you throwing a baseball through a brick wall, not even the best Humans can get a comparatively small item moving at more than 120mph. The Amanin are big boys, sure, but they couldn't throw hard enough to get through whatever ST armor is claimed to be, the energy necessary just couldn't be produced by a lifeform from dynamic muscle contraction.

[takemeout_totheblack]

[/quote]Apologies; I haven't read the comic, so forgive me for any assumptions I might make.[/quote]

No harm done! It's a good comic BTW, if you ever happen across it give it a read, the art is very good and the characters are solid.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Yes, numbers would be good. In particular numbers on Astartes armour. Expecially if it's say, tougher than a ferrocrete wall- remember that shootout at Mos Eisley, blowing chunks out of the reinforced landing bay? That one where standard service carbines and a squad automatic tear lumps out of the background.

For that matter the sandcrawler destroyed with rifle fire, or the reference in Dark Force Rising to a building being demolished by one noghri using an Imperial blaster taking aimed shots at load bearing members.

Much blasting of battle droids, of course. This is structural damage, and melting/vapourisation of moderately sized metal things, by standard service rifles.

Taking that big a chunk out of a ferrocrete wall with an energy weapon is a multimegajoule range task, at least comparable to long- las fire.

What's the usual line about genestealers and terminator armour- ripping through it like paper, is it not? Marine armour doesn't have a metaphorical leg to stand on when it comes to close combat and vulnerability.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Regarding the Stormtrooper armor issue, I believe we see clone troopers killed by spears thrown by Talz in the 1st season of Clone Wars. I believe clone armor is generally considered being heavier than OT era Stormtrooper armor (though whether that's because its thicker/stronger or just because it covers more of the body with actual armor I don't know) is something to consider. Then again, I think we also see B1s that have been pierced as well. Personally, I'd love to chalk it up to writer laziness in not paying attention to sources, but I just don't know. Someone with a better understanding of materials science, like Mike, might be able to explain this.

Regarding the OP for all intents and purposes Space Marines are a small, extremely manuervable light vehicle or comparable to some of the heavy infantry war droids (I'm thinking SD9s or SD10 or maybe even final stage Dark Troopers from the OT era) for Stormtroopers. Of course, that's for an Astartes in normal power armor, one in scout armor would probably be much easier to kill. I don't really even want to think of what one in Tactical Dreadnought(ie Terminator) armor would take to kill. You'd probably need Connor for more specific info, though roughly it makes the already extremely impressive power armor look pitiful in comparison. Does anyone know of an accurate size comparisons between your average human,an SM in power armor and an SM in Terminator armor? While I don't doubt dedicated AT weapons would work, IIRC thats what you kill them with in 40k, I have to wander about actually beinga able to hit them reliably, as I still think even the bulkier Terminator armor is supposed to be rather agile compared to a similary equipped vehicle (maybe smaller too).

[takemeout_totheblack]

What's the usual line about genestealers and terminator armour- ripping through it like paper, is it not? Marine armour doesn't have a metaphorical leg to stand on when it comes to close combat and vulnerability.

Precisely! But what we should look into is Bolter capability as Space Marine Astartes armor can be defeated by Bolter rounds. As The Bolter is a slugthrower it should be simple to calculate the KE of that and in turn discover the threshold of of SM armor, eh?

To the Warhammer 40k wiki!

[Srelex]

What's the usual line about genestealers and terminator armour- ripping through it like paper, is it not? Marine armour doesn't have a metaphorical leg to stand on when it comes to close combat and vulnerability.

Precisely! But what we should look into is Bolter capability as Space Marine Astartes armor can be defeated by Bolter rounds. As The Bolter is a slugthrower it should be simple to calculate the KE of that and in turn discover the threshold of of SM armor, eh?

To the Warhammer 40k wiki!

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... hlight=40k

That should hopefully help.

[Eviscerator]

Precisely! But what we should look into is Bolter capability as Space Marine Astartes armor can be defeated by Bolter rounds. As The Bolter is a slugthrower it should be simple to calculate the KE of that and in turn discover the threshold of of SM armor, eh?

To the Warhammer 40k wiki!

Ah-ha but as there are so many possible warheads coming out that same Bolter choose your poison, psycannon, inferno, kraken, silenced shells etc. 40K certainly has no shortage of exotic ammo loads Its further messed up by what kind of armor the Marine is wearing, is it artificer armor, master-crafted, or Chaos possesed?

[takemeout_totheblack]

Precisely! But what we should look into is Bolter capability as Space Marine Astartes armor can be defeated by Bolter rounds. As The Bolter is a slugthrower it should be simple to calculate the KE of that and in turn discover the threshold of of SM armor, eh?

To the Warhammer 40k wiki!

Ah-ha but as there are so many possible warheads coming out that same Bolter choose your poison, psycannon, inferno, kraken, silenced shells etc. 40K certainly has no shortage of exotic ammo loads Its further messed up by what kind of armor the Marine is wearing, is it artificer armor, master-crafted, or Chaos possesed?

True, but I'm probably going with the standard rocket propelled .75 cal round. Diamantine armor-piercing tip with a depleted deuterium (I know, I know, just go with it...) and an explosive charge. According to another article on SD.net, the conservative yield of a Bolter charge is roughly equal to a grenade (several hundred KJ). Standard Space Marine armor is apparently capable of withstanding several hits from a Bolter. So where does that put SW weapons?

[Starglider]

Space Marine power armor is probably somewhere between Super-Battledroid and (shielded) Destroyer Droid in toughness. Those heavy battle rifles the clonetroopers carry blew super-battledroids into fragments, so they should suffice to down space marines, although it might take two or three hits to do the job.

Terminator armor is something else entirely, more like a light tank in thickness. You'd need at least an E-Web, possibly anti-armor weapons to crack that.

[Azron_Stoma]

I was always under the impression that Blasters were more like Tau Pulse Rifles in performance, but I dunno, as for the last page comments about the spears in Stormtrooper armour, I have this to give.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnYiTJPmo94

around 1:35

maybe they had Vibranium spears

[takemeout_totheblack]

They look wooden, like real wood, as in they broke off a tree branch and sharpened both ends. WOOD defeated storm trooper armor!

[Srelex]

They look wooden, like real wood, as in they broke off a tree branch and sharpened both ends. WOOD defeated storm trooper armor!

Perhaps the ends were very, very, very sharp...anyway, I think in Survivor's Quest we had a rather conflicting example of stormtrooper durability, so rationalizing all this is difficult...er...um...maybe it was some sort of weird alien bamboo with the cutting and stabbing power of a katana! So sharp that it could cut through body armor! Right?

Or maybe, seeing as I don't think they were expecting a fight--again, correct me if I'm wrong--they were simply wearing the Lightweight Version. After all, I think Scout Troopers have lighter armor, and I think the Force Unleashed suggests this. Yeah, I may be clutching at straws here, but in an obvious case of the author simply fucking up, there really isn't much else...

[takemeout_totheblack]

Arg! I hate it when shit like this happens! Sometimes I just can't let this sort of thing go, the logical fallacy is there spitting in my face, and it all get chocked up to lazy authors!

Still, they had two Juggernauts, an AT-TE, and a whole shitload of E-webs, is that standard expeditionary equipment?

In any case, it's Endor Syndrome all over again! Can we please concede that Storm Trooper armor can't stop spears and therefore can't stop slugthrowers and therefore is a massive failure in all respects by any and every metric imaginable?
Aside from spiffyness, of course!

[Lupercal]

In any case, it's Endor Syndrome all over again! Can we please concede that Storm Trooper armor can't stop spears and therefore can't stop slugthrowers and therefore is a massive failure in all respects by any and every metric imaginable? Aside from spiffyness, of course!

Didn´t that wooden spear hit a weak spot or something? It´s not like it tore through the stormtrooper´s armor, right?

[takemeout_totheblack]

In any case, it's Endor Syndrome all over again! Can we please concede that Storm Trooper armor can't stop spears and therefore can't stop slugthrowers and therefore is a massive failure in all respects by any and every metric imaginable? Aside from spiffyness, of course!

Didn´t that wooden spear hit a weak spot or something? It´s not like it tore through the stormtrooper´s armor, right?

There were several center-mass chest and back plate penetrations. The chest plate is often the toughest part of any armor suit except for the helmet. While there were a few joint hits among the bodies, there were just as many clear armor penetrations. I believe I've addressed this very issue in past posts.

[Serafina]

In any case, it's Endor Syndrome all over again! Can we please concede that Storm Trooper armor can't stop spears and therefore can't stop slugthrowers and therefore is a massive failure in all respects by any and every metric imaginable?
Aside from spiffyness, of course!

Why should we?
I know that particular page (it was discussed several times), and those spears do not behave anything like wooden spears.
Therefore, they are not wooden spears, no matter what they look like.
Therefore, we can not conclude that the armor is weak just because it was penetrated by an object with unknown characteristics.

[Srelex]

In any case, it's Endor Syndrome all over again! Can we please concede that Storm Trooper armor can't stop spears and therefore can't stop slugthrowers and therefore is a massive failure in all respects by any and every metric imaginable? Aside from spiffyness, of course!

Didn´t that wooden spear hit a weak spot or something? It´s not like it tore through the stormtrooper´s armor, right?

There were several center-mass chest and back plate penetrations. The chest plate is often the toughest part of any armor suit except for the helmet. While there were a few joint hits among the bodies, there were just as many clear armor penetrations. I believe I've addressed this very issue in past posts.

Well, as we've said, there are examples of stormtrooper armor taking far worse damage than that, so IMO the easiest explanations are, again, either defective or lightweight-version armor. Both are pretty contrived, but that's the best way to mesh it in with what's been shown and described elsewhere.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Why should we?
I know that particular page (it was discussed several times), and those spears do not behave anything like wooden spears.
Therefore, they are not wooden spears, no matter what they look like.
Therefore, we can not conclude that the armor is weak just because it was penetrated by an object with unknown characteristics.

'behave like wood'? What the hell are you talking about?! They have a grain, they show signs that they have been sharpened! And what the hell kind of logic is that anyway?! 'they can't be wooden spears because they look exactly like wood but still pierce armor'
WHAT?!
Either way, I'm tired of this argument, the tragic inconsistency within the canon is enraging, even more enraging than the fans ability to rationalize such lunacy!
Onto Space Marine armor specs! At least there's some consistency in those walking tanks!

[Serafina]

Well, for starters, a simple wooden spear does not drive that deep into the ground...
There was various others stuff, but the burden of proof is on you to show that this example proofs that Stromtrooper is so useless - so, YOU do the search.