The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[Old Peculier]

@ STUART:

Oh yeah, this reminds me. You once said that Uriel's death powers would not affect pilots in planes because of their shielding. But Uriel's powers were able to kill people inside houses, behind concrete and layers of tinfoil, just fine. Could planes and cockpit canopies really be more resistant to Uriel's death powers than buildings decked out in foil?

Actually, fighter aircraft have canopies inlaid with gold foil and gold is a much more effective screen than aluminum. So, the aircraft are quite well protected against the death-power.

[Sea Skimmer]

Aren't a lot of the planes that we've made these days designed to be built to resist EMP attacks? Just pulling this out of my flame tuffted tail but if a plane is designed to be able to resist EMP attacks then it would doubtlessly be more than proof against Uriel's attacks.

Any combat aircraft has to have a fair bit of shielding against electromagnetic radiation, because otherwise the high power radar systems on other aircraft and ground stations would prevent a serious hazard to onboard electronics and the pilots. Even civilian aircraft have some level of protection because of this. Full scale protection against a large EMP event isn’t as common.

[JBG]

I'm given to understand that EMP is... a bit overrated. Also, EMP shielding is designed to protect electronics, specifically, against the effects of a brief surge of power induced in the wiring by the EMP. It doesn't make the entire aircraft completely immune to electromagnetics of any kind, and any kind of 'surge protection' of that sort will be less effective against a continuous-wave broadcast.

You can block everything with a good enough Faraday cage, but there's no reason to assume that a cage that blocks nuclear EMPs of a given intensity will also block the Uriel death-ray effect.

Simon, for nuclear device "EMP" effects see Stuart's essay.

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3 ... f=11&t=312

[Simon_Jester]

Simon, for nuclear device "EMP" effects see Stuart's essay.

http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3 ... f=11&t=312

Yes, I know, I read the essay days ago. It was one of the reasons why I said what I did.

As I said, EMP manifests as an induced power surge, and it doesn't last. EMP hardening shouldn't have made a pilot Uriel-proof by itself. What would help more is the shielding required to protect the pilot from high-power radar sets, as Sea Skimmer describes. There's a major difference between EMP and continuous-beam electromagnetic transmission, and from the description Uriel's power is more like the latter than the former. In effect, it's a radio signal that switches your brain off (exact mechanism unspecified), and that has to be received at some certain intensity for some duration to kill you. Not a single "ZAP you're dead!" death ray that can kill you with a ten-nanosecond pulse.

For targets without protection that duration is short; for better screened targets it's longer. Uriel should probably still have been able to kill individual pilots if he could target them effectively, but trying to nail them as an area effect would:
-Lower the power of the of the attack that's delivered through the aircraft's existing shielding, and
-Reduce the effect even further because pilots would have time to fly out of the area of effect and recover before going back in for another pass.

[Edward Yee]

He could've been "ensnared" long before Armageddon, and long before tinfoil hats became fashionable, leading him to not wear tinfoil hats, or to take them off in private so he can talk to his gods.

I dunno about him being ensnared long before or the tinfoil hats; for some reason it seems more 'direct,' a tighter handling than simply being ensnared once and left with the target-designating details.

Also, if tinfoil can block angel brainwaves, then I think submarine hulls would be even more effective.

That's what I was thinking.

[EuelB]

When it came, the blast was stunning in its effects. The mass of C4 explosive, carefully wrapped with fragments of gold and silver and set amidst masses of semi-precious stones, turned those riches into a spray of deadly shrapnel that scythed through the crowds, leaving death and destruction behind them. The paving stones of the Forum ran with blood, mostly red but white as well and occasionally a trace of silver. The gentle babble of voices was replaced by a cacophony of screams and the wailing of the wounded. Dozens around the cart lay dead, many more still lived despite severed limbs and mutilations previously unknown in Heaven. Such events had never been contemplated before and there existed no precedent for dealing with them. Angel or human, those who still had their wits and bodies intact panicked and stampeded for the steps that were the only way out of the forum. As they pushed and crowded at the bottleneck represented by the steps, that was where and when the second bomb went off.


The Forum of Indefatigable Exaltation, Eternal City, Heaven.


Michael-Lan nodded sympathetically. "Your decision of course, but I think you are absolutely right. This atrocity must take precedence." Especially since it means that I can now claim credit for the nuclear destruction of Tel Aviv and if anybody argues about it, we can link them straight to this. "We will have to get back to headquarters and see if Salaphael knows anything about this." If he has any sanity left.

Michael, you bastard! If Mikey didn't have those bombs planted, and the posters drawn/printed, I'll eat antimatter! Why respond to a threat when you can manufacture one. No doubt he's behind those "Divine Justice" dupes...

[Buritot]

I just thought of a small, pretty nice dramatic twist for the story. The sub is either destroyed or the traitor (Yitzchak) killed in one way or another. He arrives at Hell, and - providing a prepared fake name and background - will travel to New Rome. Once there he will ask for political asylum.
The request in itself won't be so important but rather its implications.
Would the HEA simply ride into New Rome territory and try to extract Yitzchak? Or will the various governments demand extradition? The behaviour would set a precedent influencing politics for years. Imagine a forceful extraction - I take it Gaius Julius Caesar would be not amused. He would recognize the need for taking that action, he's in no way daft, but I think Ceasar would try to get a much political leverage as is reasonable out of the situation or else be on not-so-good terms for a few years
What's reasonable in this case isn't easy to pinpoint - expecting too much would make New Rome look like a co-conspirator or let at least have a negative influence on Earth's populations opinion of Ceasars state. At best his own military forces would locate Yitzchak, apprehend him and turn him over to HEA - as soon as someone felt the need to fill out a form for extradition.

The point I'm making is - Earth would have to deal with the case of national states in Hell and their standing and political recognition on a worldwide scale. Italy recognizing New Rome wouldn't suffice.

[Jamesfirecat]

I just thought of a small, pretty nice dramatic twist for the story. The sub is either destroyed or the traitor (Yitzchak) killed in one way or another. He arrives at Hell, and - providing a prepared fake name and background - will travel to New Rome. Once there he will ask for political asylum.
The request in itself won't be so important but rather its implications.
Would the HEA simply ride into New Rome territory and try to extract Yitzchak? Or will the various governments demand extradition? The behaviour would set a precedent influencing politics for years. Imagine a forceful extraction - I take it Gaius Julius Caesar would be not amused. He would recognize the need for taking that action, he's in no way daft, but I think Ceasar would try to get a much political leverage as is reasonable out of the situation or else be on not-so-good terms for a few years
What's reasonable in this case isn't easy to pinpoint - expecting too much would make New Rome look like a co-conspirator or let at least have a negative influence on Earth's populations opinion of Ceasars state. At best his own military forces would locate Yitzchak, apprehend him and turn him over to HEA - as soon as someone felt the need to fill out a form for extradition.

The point I'm making is - Earth would have to deal with the case of national states in Hell and their standing and political recognition on a worldwide scale. Italy recognizing New Rome wouldn't suffice.

Ehh I doubt it, I think its far more likely that whoever is running the third conspiracy, the one that was responsible for the nukes will see that Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies. Not because they especially like him, or think him worthy, but as a way to spit in the eye of the human forces. If Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies (assuming his death involves the entire sub crew going down) humanity is left with a handful of innocent crew men who were unkowningly part of a huge massacre and a public howling for the blood of those responsible for the nuking of a human city. Its a much surer way to incite fractions among the humans then hoping that humanity doesn't have depictions of the subs crew handed out to those running the Minos Gate operation with orders to be extra careful around anyone who looks like that....

[Buritot]

Ehh I doubt it, I think its far more likely that whoever is running the third conspiracy, the one that was responsible for the nukes will see that Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies. Not because they especially like him, or think him worthy, but as a way to spit in the eye of the human forces. If Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies (assuming his death involves the entire sub crew going down) humanity is left with a handful of innocent crew men who were unkowningly part of a huge massacre and a public howling for the blood of those responsible for the nuking of a human city. Its a much surer way to incite fractions among the humans then hoping that humanity doesn't have depictions of the subs crew handed out to those running the Minos Gate operation with orders to be extra careful around anyone who looks like that....

You know, that's even better. That way Heaven could incite more susceptible humans to become traitors on virtue of going to Heaven. And yes, I'm fully aware most persons able to appreciate this offer are also most likely the ones taking a dying nap after the Message. The emphasis lying on most. I imagine there are people who didn't lie down but kept on waiting.

Rational fundamentalists, if that makes any sense.

[tortieconspiracy]

Ehh I doubt it, I think its far more likely that whoever is running the third conspiracy, the one that was responsible for the nukes will see that Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies. Not because they especially like him, or think him worthy, but as a way to spit in the eye of the human forces. If Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies (assuming his death involves the entire sub crew going down) humanity is left with a handful of innocent crew men who were unkowningly part of a huge massacre and a public howling for the blood of those responsible for the nuking of a human city. Its a much surer way to incite fractions among the humans then hoping that humanity doesn't have depictions of the subs crew handed out to those running the Minos Gate operation with orders to be extra careful around anyone who looks like that....

You know, that's even better. That way Heaven could incite more susceptible humans to become traitors on virtue of going to Heaven. And yes, I'm fully aware most persons able to appreciate this offer are also most likely the ones taking a dying nap after the Message. The emphasis lying on most. I imagine there are people who didn't lie down but kept on waiting.

Rational fundamentalists, if that makes any sense.

I dunno, the guy who killed Richard Dawkins didn't strike me as being particularly rational, but he obviously didn't lie down and die. He's the precisely the sort I'd expect to jump at a chance at Heaven.

If Yitzchak got grabbed by the third conspiracy though, once the sub crew and the folks at the Minos Gate figured out he was missing, I think people would come to the obvious conclusion. In that case, expect that when the invasion of Heaven finally happens, the people going in will be looking for him.

[Jamesfirecat]

Ehh I doubt it, I think its far more likely that whoever is running the third conspiracy, the one that was responsible for the nukes will see that Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies. Not because they especially like him, or think him worthy, but as a way to spit in the eye of the human forces. If Yitzchak goes to heaven when he dies (assuming his death involves the entire sub crew going down) humanity is left with a handful of innocent crew men who were unkowningly part of a huge massacre and a public howling for the blood of those responsible for the nuking of a human city. Its a much surer way to incite fractions among the humans then hoping that humanity doesn't have depictions of the subs crew handed out to those running the Minos Gate operation with orders to be extra careful around anyone who looks like that....

You know, that's even better. That way Heaven could incite more susceptible humans to become traitors on virtue of going to Heaven. And yes, I'm fully aware most persons able to appreciate this offer are also most likely the ones taking a dying nap after the Message. The emphasis lying on most. I imagine there are people who didn't lie down but kept on waiting.

Rational fundamentalists, if that makes any sense.

Well remember Yitzchak is Jewish. I mentioned this after his first mention in the story and I can only make guesses as I'm a nominal Christian but here is how my theory goes.

Jews wouldn't feel as betrayed by the Message as Christians would.

I say this because the "Christian God" is the loving caring soft hearted god of the New Testament who sends down his own son to preach to us about how we should get along, and loving each other is more important than making sure we eat food that has been handled in a "holy" way etc, etc... we tend to want to forget about the Old Testament to a certain degree, much like fans of "The Dark Night" would prefer not to talk about "Batman and Robbin" unless its to point out differences.

However, and I invite any Jews to correct me, the "Jewish God" however is much more of a dick what with his entire "sacrifice your son to me... just kidding!" "Hey lets see how much shit I can dump on this guy and have him still love me!" "Now watch me poor this ten gallon jug of water onto the ant hill you call earth!" And so on and so forth. Thus in my theory from a Jewish perspective they might be more willing to recognize Yahweh as "yeah that's the guy we've been worshiping all this time, condemning us all to Hell and waiting a thousand years to tell us, sounds right up his alley!" Thus why Yitzchak might have been a "this is just like when he told that guy to kill his son maybe he's seeing how many of us do it" when the message came, thus not take his own life, and then still be willing to follow up on some angel's orders once he'd been clued in on what exactly the "divine plan" was.

And I try to say the above in the least anti-semitic manner possible...

[JN1]

I dunno, the guy who killed Richard Dawkins didn't strike me as being particularly rational, but he obviously didn't lie down and die. He's the precisely the sort I'd expect to jump at a chance at Heaven.

He wasn't rational at all. He believed it was his 'Holy Duty' to kill a prominent atheist, who he believed was amongst those responsible for Humanity being condemned to Hell. Getting into Heaven by his act was not on his mind at the time.

[Mr.Radar]

You know, that's even better. That way Heaven could incite more susceptible humans to become traitors on virtue of going to Heaven. And yes, I'm fully aware most persons able to appreciate this offer are also most likely the ones taking a dying nap after the Message. The emphasis lying on most. I imagine there are people who didn't lie down but kept on waiting.

Rational fundamentalists, if that makes any sense.

Bringing humans to heaven could backfire in a major way. One of humanity's major problems in this war is that they don't have a way to create a gate to Heaven, because they don't know anyone who is in heaven. Michael knows that humans have learned how to make and track portals (and only require one person/being or a few events to do so) so he goes to great lengths to make it hard to find Heaven (going through Hell, keeping Belial in a faraday cage). The question then is does anyone else, especially the perpetrators of the third conspiracy, know how capable humans are with portals? If the sub goes down and the crew (either a few or all) mysteriously don't appear at the Minos gate, I have no doubt they'd have kitten or another sensitive on the couch in no time trying to find them. Cue the invasion of Heaven...

[Edward Yee]

I think he meant personality-wise.

[Simon_Jester]

Jews wouldn't feel as betrayed by the Message as Christians would.
I say this because the "Christian God" is the loving caring soft hearted god of the New Testament who sends down his own son to preach to us about how we should get along, and loving each other is more important than making sure we eat food that has been handled in a "holy" way etc, etc... we tend to want to forget about the Old Testament to a certain degree, much like fans of "The Dark Night" would prefer not to talk about "Batman and Robbin" unless its to point out differences...

You're missing something.

From the Jews' point of view, this is the god they've suffered countless atrocities, millenia of oppression, and constant obedience to a complex and sometimes painful set of religious laws for. When it would have been so ridiculously easy to just say "Screw it, let's find a new god," too. They very much kept up their end of the bargain here; they have a right to expect not to be completely cast aside as a people like this.

So they'd likely react with a "WHAT? You ass! We had a covenant, damn it!"

Now, some individual Jews will probably not react this way, and instead will be all like "this is just another test, like pretty much the entirety of Jewish history." But then again, so will some Christians, and some Muslims.

He wasn't rational at all. He believed it was his 'Holy Duty' to kill a prominent atheist, who he believed was amongst those responsible for Humanity being condemned to Hell. Getting into Heaven by his act was not on his mind at the time.

He wasn't rational... but in a real sense he was right. After all, in the backstory Yahweh got tired of humans about when they stopped being as obedient as he'd like; if there had been more people like that random lunatic acting on their random lunacy back in the day, the Message never would have happened because the people who got Yahweh bored of humanity would have been being killed off rather than allowed to play around and annoy him.

Which is not to say that humanity would have been better off- but it's interesting to reflect that the guy who killed Dawkins had deduced exactly why the Message happened. It's just that he reacted by blaming what he saw as the villains (other humans, since God can't be the bad guy, right?), with himself as the victim, rather than seeing all humanity as the victim the way that mainstream survivor society did.

[StrikaAmaru]

He wasn't rational... but in a real sense he was right. After all, in the backstory Yahweh got tired of humans about when they stopped being as obedient as he'd like; if there had been more people like that random lunatic acting on their random lunacy back in the day, the Message never would have happened because the people who got Yahweh bored of humanity would have been being killed off rather than allowed to play around and annoy him.

Which is not to say that humanity would have been better off- but it's interesting to reflect that the guy who killed Dawkins had deduced exactly why the Message happened. It's just that he reacted by blaming what he saw as the villains (other humans, since God can't be the bad guy, right?), with himself as the victim, rather than seeing all humanity as the victim the way that mainstream survivor society did.

I say he couldn't be right (that atheists caused the gates of Heaven to close), on account of historical timeline; Yahweh closed Heaven a thousand years ago, long before atheism caught hold. I don't even know if any atheist philosophies existed 300 years ago; agnostics were around, but they still believe in a Creator.

The only 'old' atheist trends I remember are fringe Greek currents, which were gone by the time the Gates closed, and Indian philosophies (Cārvāka, dating as far back as 6BCE, and atheistic schools in Hinduism), which were still practiced, but not nearly as notable or widespread as the $#!tloads of pagan religions.

Frankly, I've been thinking about it, and can't figure out what pissed Yahweh off in the first place; ~1000 AD, Christianity and Islam were doing wonderful, he had a lot of worshipers from them, and they were still growing; just about the only two coherent theory I could cook up is that (1) he took offense at his son's religion snatching off some 'old school' worshipers from him, and it took him a thousand years to react; even I have to admit this doesn't make much sense; or (2) Christianity had gradually mutated him to the 'caring loving God' instead of 'jealous, petty, asshole God' and he didn't like that, he liked his tough guy image.

As a point of ironical humor, Yahweh closed off Heaven right before the Crusades: the first crusade took place between 1096 and 1099.

[Simon_Jester]

I disagree, on grounds of timeline; Yahweh closed Heaven a thousand years ago, long before atheism caught hold. I don't even know if any atheist philosophies existed 300 years ago; agnostics were around, but they still believe in a Creator.

Not atheists as such, but annoying questioners in general. The atheists were just the most extreme incarnation of a longstanding trend... if Stuart's explanation is to be believed.

Of course, we could just blame the whole thing on Yahweh being capricious. I'll wait for the author to weigh in, because that depends heavily on how he wants things to look.

[StrikaAmaru]

I disagree, on grounds of timeline; Yahweh closed Heaven a thousand years ago, long before atheism caught hold. I don't even know if any atheist philosophies existed 300 years ago; agnostics were around, but they still believe in a Creator.

Not atheists as such, but annoying questioners in general. The atheists were just the most extreme incarnation of a longstanding trend... if Stuart's explanation is to be believed.

Of course, we could just blame the whole thing on Yahweh being capricious. I'll wait for the author to weigh in, because that depends heavily on how he wants things to look.

(I edited my post a bit since you quoted it, it didn't seem clear enough to me...)

Even annoying questioners didn't show up for some 3-400 years more, unless you count the Islamic Golden Age. This is pretty much the essence of my argument, that a thousand years ago, large portions of humanity were sitting prostrate before Yahweh, either part of the Islamic Caliphates, or in the backwards shithole that Christian Europe was at the time.

I'm not saying scientifical reasoning started with the Renaissance, but I really don't remember anyone questioning God's domain before it.

[Later edit, with the real point of it:] and questioning God, his divine will, or the Scriptures even for a nanosecond was still pretty much literally unthinkable.

[tricksterson]

I believe Stuart has said that 1000 AD is the humans best guess, not necessarily the right one.

[Simon_Jester]

At a bare minimum, we know Heaven wasn't closed until after 400 AD, since we've got at least one confirmed case of a fifth century Welsh saint showing up.

(I edited my post a bit since you quoted it, it didn't seem clear enough to me...)
Even annoying questioners didn't show up for some 3-400 years more, unless you count the Islamic Golden Age. This is pretty much the essence of my argument, that a thousand years ago, large portions of humanity were sitting prostrate before Yahweh, either part of the Islamic Caliphates, or in the backwards shithole that Christian Europe was at the time.

I'm not saying scientifical reasoning started with the Renaissance, but I really don't remember anyone questioning God's domain before it.

Maybe the Islamic Golden Age is what set him off, c. 900-1000. Or maybe it was the Scholastics in Europe during the High Middle Ages, c. 1200-1300; maybe he got all pissy when he heard that St. Thomas Aquinas had asserted that he couldn't create a triangle with angles adding to more than 180 degrees.

As presented here, Yahweh's standard of "annoying questions" is liable to be very broad- as in any question, except something like "would you prefer your choir in tenor or baritone?" Just the idea that people are actually sitting down and thinking about him, rather than mindlessly doing everything he says, might strike him as presumptuous.

[UnderAGreySky]

Maybe this was answered in TSW:Armageddon and my memory is being piss poor at recall, but why is there a 1000 year gap between the gate to heaven closing for good and the arrival of 'The Message'?

[JonB]

What's a thousand years or two to Heaven and Hell? Stuart has pointed out that the Demons and Angels tend to operate on far larger time scale what we humans do. Which is also what bit them in the ass.

[Simon_Jester]

What's a thousand years or two to Heaven and Hell? Stuart has pointed out that the Demons and Angels tend to operate on far larger time scale what we humans do. Which is also what bit them in the ass.

Thing is, time still passes for them at the same rate it does for humans. How long was Yahweh supposed to be sitting on his throne baked on incense and endless choir-singing before he finally got round to enforcing his own decision? I mean, it's implied that his son Jesus has been around long enough for Yahweh to at least be used to him... a thousand years is half Jesus's lifespan.

It makes as much sense to say it happened five hundred or so years ago (in which case there would probably be some Crusaders in Heaven... it'd serve Saint Louis (also known as king Louis IX) right.

[Buritot]

Thing is, time still passes for them at the same rate it does for humans. How long was Yahweh supposed to be sitting on his throne baked on incense and endless choir-singing before he finally got round to enforcing his own decision? I mean, it's implied that his son Jesus has been around long enough for Yahweh to at least be used to him... a thousand years is half Jesus's lifespan.

No, now we're relying on a fantasy bestseller to report the truth? It might be a loose guideline at best. I'm running on the assumption Jesus is way older than mere two thousand years.

What that makes me think of is another point, though - imagine you'd live for millennia and more - would you let yourself be happy with one child every odd millennium? Hardly, I think. So far we haven't seen any overpopulation issues in Heaven, a society presumable less wanton on killing its members. Sure, the Great Celestial War took probably a toll on both Hells and Heavens populations, and the million years since then most surely replenished the fallen numbers, but the small population bugs me.

In Hell it might have stagnated due to ritualized wars and capital punishments, but Heaven? Heaven makes me think on a wholly different background. What if reproduction is government controlled? The right to make angelings is a bestowed upon on a special basis and isn't given from the outset? Let me iterate: Children are a danger, a challenge to the system. They will grow up and at some time will most likely want to have an impact on the world, or be in charge. But we're effectively dealing with immortals here. It's ridiculous to assume they'd leave their comfy seat of whatever minuscule power they have to children of by all accounts strangers, or even rivals, simply because those are next in line. No, good sir, your child may want to take my position, but only over my silver-bloody body will I ever leave this seat to some usurper!

Another explanation attempt: Angels are hardly fertile. To produce just one child they, ehem, "have" to have intercourse a lot, with a very small chance of impregnation at each try. Or the females have a very short fertile period and long periods of no fertility (unlikely in my opinion).

[Simon_Jester]

They don't act like a species with an estrus period; if the females are nonfertile most of the time they didn't evolve that way and weren't designed for it.

Low fertility rates are actually a plausible explanation, though it's interesting to speculate on why- demons are closely related to them biologically and don't seem to have such problems. They wouldn't last long if they did, because the attrition rate is higher in Hell.