What SW infantry weapons could bring down a Space Marine?

[takemeout_totheblack]

Well, for starters, a simple wooden spear does not drive that deep into the ground...
There was various others stuff, but the burden of proof is on you to show that this example proofs that Stromtrooper is so useless - so, YOU do the search.

Don't get tetchy, I'm done with this argument.
Now, I originally asked about ST armor to figure out the energy levels of their weapons and then try and figure out their effectiveness against SM armor. The popular notion is that standard blaster rifles are in the high kilojoule to low megajoule range (roughly a grenade level energy release) now have you come to this thread to dispute me on tangentially related opinions or add to the overall arc of the discussion? If the latter, then do you have any figures or educated guesses on Astartes gear and materials? If the former, start a new thread and argue your point there.

[NecronLord]

In general, nothing really man portable I.E operated by one man in the SW universe does much to a Spessh Muhreen
By itself that is. If you want to take down Mr Space Marine fast , figure on hitting him with a target designator and then calling for artillery

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA2cT3rdoRs

2.30. That tank, according to the ICS, has armor over four inches thick, and yet is consumed in an explosion that consumes the troops around it by one missile. I think a Space Marine might have his work cut out here.

You're taking Clone Wars anime as serious evidence of firepower now? Piss off. It's stylised at best. Mace Wankdu and uber Grievous spring to mind.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I recall reading that initial Clone armor was more resistant to the newer variants (which probably includes Stormtrooper armor). This was done in favour of reduced weight and increased mobility. I think this was in the Guide to Episode III or one of the picture books. Or was it else where? I forgot.

[NecronLord]

No one has mentined lightsabers, for shame!

What? Is 'force' a new unit of measure? I assume you mean the 'momentum',

Force is a proper concept distinct from momentum, its SI unit of measure is the Newton. That you didn't know that is rather damning.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Ah yes, my mistake. A newton equates to acceleration, the argument was about KE transfer.
KE is the big factor when it comes to KE weaponry, right? That a massive object in motion imparts a certain percentage of it's KE into the target and if the KE transfer is great enough that damage will ensue?
Forgive my mistake, it was foolish, but please acknowledge the rest of the argument before making any serious accusations.

BTW is Gallifrey Chronicles a book or another Doctor Who media? I'd like to give it a read/watch/listen.

[Srelex]

You're taking Clone Wars anime as serious evidence of firepower now? Piss off. It's stylised at best. Mace Wankdu and uber Grievous spring to mind.

It's still canon, unless I'm wrong, and I don't consider a rocket launcher capable of destroying a tank in one shot so unreasonable, considering what else they have. Hell, the equalivent of a cop car was able to utterly vaporize an AAT in Theed in TPM, so why not a rocket launcher?

And if that doesn't work for you, here's what the Databank has to say: The original edition that debuted in the Clone Wars, the PLX-1, could deliver explosive payloads capable of destroying a Trade Federation AAT. Which definitely indicates that that particular example of firepower was not down to stylization. Here's the link: http://www.starwars.com/databank/techno ... index.html

[NecronLord]

That doesn't mean that it can just plough through the front armour as you seem to be suggesting. The AAT has shitloads of weaknesses, a big door on the back, for one. If a rocket like that could destroy an AAT front on and reliably, it really begs the question why they're not used every time clones fight AATs. If they're actually an analogue of RL anti-tank missiles, they require luck and/or skill to achieve a kill.

[takemeout_totheblack]

On that note, what does the SW universe use as chemical explosive? Does it even use chemicals? What is the nature of that rocket?

[Balrog]

Ah yes, my mistake. A newton equates to acceleration, the argument was about KE transfer.

The question was about armor penetration, and how pressure (which is force applied to an area) would matter a lot more than kinetic energy. And while kinetic energy emphasizes velocity, in matters such as force it's a lot more simpler, since it's just mass times acceleration. Therefore you can achieve a similar result with a heavy, slow-moving object as with light, fast moving object.

But this is horribly off-topic. Another weapon that probably could puncture Space Marine armor would be an FC-1 flettche launcher; the anti-vehicle ammo variant can punch through nearly four inches of durasteel, though I don't know how it compares to ceramite. And there's also the thermal detonators.

[takemeout_totheblack]

The thing is is that the spear would have to be moving quite fast to equal the penetration power of a bullet, this is part of the reason they went out of style with they advent of the gun (aside from training and range). The point is, a life from probably can't throw a spear hard enough to equate a bullet, units of measurement and minutiae aside, that's the major limiting factor to spears and what I find so irritating about this 'noble savage thrashing an accomplished intergalactic empire' trope that seems so common nowadays!
And while the battle at Maridun was supposed to be an analogy to the Zulu wars the British fought, it's safe to say what worked against and industrial revolution era army would not survive a conflict against GE level army.

That aside, this whole ST vs SM issue isn't going to see much in the way of conclusive arguing if no one is able to scrounge up some numbers for things like ceramite and such!

[Srelex]

The thing is is that the spear would have to be moving quite fast to equal the penetration power of a bullet, this is part of the reason they went out of style with they advent of the gun (aside from training and range). The point is, a life from probably can't throw a spear hard enough to equate a bullet, units of measurement and minutiae aside, that's the major limiting factor to spears and what I find so irritating about this 'noble savage thrashing an accomplished intergalactic empire' trope that seems so common nowadays!
And while the battle at Maridun was supposed to be an analogy to the Zulu wars the British fought, it's safe to say what worked against and industrial revolution era army would not survive a conflict against GE level army.

That aside, this whole ST vs SM issue isn't going to see much in the way of conclusive arguing if no one is able to scrounge up some numbers for things like ceramite and such!

And that's the thing--do you know the strength of whatever was throwing the spear? It's metabolism? It's muscular composition? I mean, there's ludicrous enough life forms in SW anyway, so one that can throw a spear with force equal to that of a bullet, while giving the middle finger to RL biology, wouldn't be so out of place in the SW galaxy...

[takemeout_totheblack]

They're slugs, or slug based. Also, after reading the comic again, there is an instance where Janek Sunber is hit by a spear in the shoulder. It dug in maybe a few inches, while around him STs were dropping like flies from similar spears on similar decent patterns. It's a good comic, but it just got a little to carried away with it's source material and ended up pissing off obsessive nerds like myself.

Now, any word on ceramite? What does it do? What does it stop? Properties?

[Eviscerator]

My comment on trained person vs Ms Shortcake was made to show that the person throwing an object is at least as important as the object itself.
People get serious injuries from fastballs in baseball. One does not throw an fastball tommorow.

Similiarly to use RL analogs in this contxt, a modern AT sabot round is an speartip, writ VERY large. to keep it simple, out the tank barrel comes a metal dart going at a VERY HIGH SPEED. Additionally, what the dart is made of makes a considerable difference. Depleted Uranium while only marginally of higher density than other metals that can be used for weaps/armor, it still is an advantage. One never knows when that little advantage saves your bacon or blows up that T-90U on the first hit.

Hence an accurate accounting cannot be made for the amanin without knowing how strong and what that speartip was made of. It mighta been made of Unobtanium

[takemeout_totheblack]

WOOD. The spears were made of WOOD.
Does Unobtainium have a grain from when it was growing as a tree branch? The very same trees that were being clear cut by the massacred colonists the ST company was sent to retrieve.
And the people throwing them: slugs, a planarian species with long spindly arms and a somewhat tube shaped body. Not Rancors, not Krayte Dragons, not Wookies, but slug people. 3 meter tall slug people, but slug people nonetheless.

[Imperial Overlord]

Now, any word on ceramite? What does it do? What does it stop? Properties?

It's a ceramic based, very light weight super armour. It gives very good protection against kinetic projectile weapons and beam weapons. It's widely used in carapace and powered armour as well as in vehicles. An old man in power armour was able to survive being hit with antivehicle autocannon fire that blew through a stone wall and subsequently buried him in rubble (Eisenhorn). A Deathwatch Space Marine was able to withstand multiple hits from a Tau burst cannon (rapid firing, heavy duty anti infantry charged particle weapon) while only suffering some armour damage(Kill Team). A high powered blaster rifle should kill Space Marines, if enough hits are scored.

[Eviscerator]

I remind you The Value Of Proper Intelligence To Any Successful Military Campaign Is Not To Be Underestimated


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Valu ... restimated

On the planet Gibbela, an agricultural world well off any trade routes, a tiny humanoid native farmer is farming on a plot of land. A small Imperial contingent lands on the farm in a Sentinel-class landing craft, planning on taking over the planet. Several stormtroopers and an officer disembark the shuttle and demand the farmer surrender. However, much to the Imperials' surprise, the farmer transforms into a gigantic clawed beast and kills all of them. The creature shrinks back to its original size and continues its fieldwork, using the remaining armor and weapons of the deceased Imperials as farm equipment. In the future, spacers avoid Gibbela because of its deadly inhabitants

[Ford Prefect]

An old man in power armour was able to survive being hit with antivehicle autocannon fire that blew through a stone wall and subsequently buried him in rubble (Eisenhorn).

There's also that time when a Space Marine protects some chick from an ornithopter mounted autocannon by holding himself over her and letting it shoot him in the back (I think it's from one of the Uriel Ventris novels, but I always, always forget the exact source). It couldn't conceivably be a smaller calibre than 20mm.

[Eviscerator]

May i be so bold as to point out that the Lord Grand Admiral's own personal bodyguard comes from an species that is small in stature, primitive in beliefs, yet posseses a scent of smell capable of analysing DNA by smell and other such capabilities impressive enough for Darth Vader to take notice?

In SW, dismissing that primitive-looking feller in the corner may be your last mistake .

[Srelex]

It should be noted that in Fire Warrior, the novel as well I think, a Pulse Rifle chews up both regular and Chaos Marines. Of course, given the fact that it's a relic from the Era of Extreme Tauwank, the less said the better...

[Eviscerator]

Im really hazy on ST armor, i got out of touch with the njo and all, but i remember two incidents from the Rogue SQN series of novels. not too precisely, im afraid

In an earlier novel, the Gand character gives corran ST armor which later saves his life
Bacta war, the kick-ass female commando didnt bring an blaster rifle and carbines were not guranteed to kill two troops in ST armor from that range.

There is absolutely no reason why Palpy would equip his Legions with armor that cant stop a spear.
Since the story in question we are argueing about is based on historical precedent of Zulus overcoming Brits, the writer may have just put a bit of art license in. Dont stare at the rose too long, you lose appreciation of its overral beauty.

[takemeout_totheblack]

May i be so bold as to point out that the Lord Grand Admiral's own personal bodyguard comes from an species that is small in stature, primitive in beliefs, yet posseses a scent of smell capable of analysing DNA by smell and other such capabilities impressive enough for Darth Vader to take notice?

In SW, dismissing that primitive-looking feller in the corner may be your last mistake .

What? The Noghri? Oh my god that doesn't change anything at all! They still can't throw a spear at 1/3 mach!
Look, as stated in my more recent posts, the author of the comic and apparently George Lucas got caught up in the whole 'primitives ass-rape the empire' thing. And the Amanin can be found in places like Jabba's palace, if they were super awesome like the Noghri I think they would have been noticed by now.

Now... WH40K info please, toughness of materials, etc.

[Eviscerator]

I was trying to make the point in SW or really any other sci-fi setting, Things Happen That Cant/Dont Normally Happen.
Medical science has never produced anyone or anything. who can smell or taste something and analyse the DNA based on that one sense alone, like the noghri or kroot do.

Anyone made laser beams that magically stop at a meter in length? No? Then why do lightsabers work?

To take it completely to another plane, is SUPERMAN then able to throw that spear fast enough to go through a tank?

[Serafina]

Anyone made laser beams that magically stop at a meter in length? No? Then why do lightsabers work?

Lightsabers are not lasers - anyone with a minimal capability to analyse stuff knows that. They do not look like lasers, they do not behave like lasers, they are not called lasers...so guess what, they are no lasers.

To take it completely to another plane, is SUPERMAN then able to throw that spear fast enough to go through a tank?

Guess what, with enough momentum, nearly everything can penetrate nearly everything.
Wether thats a practical thing to do is another story altogether, but it's still true.

[Batman]

Anyone made laser beams that magically stop at a meter in length? No? Then why do lightsabers work?

Lightsabers are not lasers - anyone with a minimal capability to analyse stuff knows that. They do not look like lasers, they do not behave like lasers, they are not called lasers...so guess what, they are no lasers.

I very much suspect that was his point.

To take it completely to another plane, is SUPERMAN then able to throw that spear fast enough to go through a tank?

Guess what, with enough momentum, nearly everything can penetrate nearly everything.
Wether thats a practical thing to do is another story altogether, but it's still true.

As was this.

[Black Admiral]

An old man in power armour was able to survive being hit with antivehicle autocannon fire that blew through a stone wall and subsequently buried him in rubble (Eisenhorn).

There's also that time when a Space Marine protects some chick from an ornithopter mounted autocannon by holding himself over her and letting it shoot him in the back (I think it's from one of the Uriel Ventris novels, but I always, always forget the exact source). It couldn't conceivably be a smaller calibre than 20mm.

Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flash. The men who had been awaiting rescue in the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart in seconds by the heavy calibre, armour piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in midthigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.

The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolter rounds were ineffective against the armoured undersides of the gunships.

Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter's shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt the powerful impacts hammer into his backplate. He offered a small prayer of thanks to his armour for standing firm against the traitorous fire.

And, as far as I can find from a brief check, the Fire Warrior novelization has pulse rifle fire proving utterly ineffectual against SM armour. I'll check Courage and Honour but I don't think that's liable to provide any different impression.