What SW infantry weapons could bring down a Space Marine?

[GuppyShark]

Stormtrooper armor's capabilities vary as much as anything else in Star Wars! Sometimes a Star Destroyer is a formidable enemy, sometimes Rogue Squadron shoots them down like flies

Since when do Rogue SQN vape Impstars like flies? They must have been issued supersecret transphasic torpedoes that blow up Impstars in one hit Rogue Squadron is an squadron of starfighters which is 12 and throughout their entire history they always operate in concert with other assets. The one time Rogue Squadron became ROGUE squadron, they were almost Madz Pwnt by an Victory-II SD at Alderaan. Suggesting at anytime Wedge and gang could have taken their 12 fighters to Thyferra and vape the Lusankya is asinine in the extreme.

Just to answer this tangent - in the comic books it was not uncommon at all for Rogue Squadron to take out ISDs, often solo. I recall that in the Tatooine story Wedge yelled at Elscol to not go off on her own - she does so, flies into the hangar bay of the ISD, and fires off her torps while inside the hangar, taking out the ISD.

Which is why comic books are worthless for any sort of analysis.

[Thanas]

a) That wasn't an ISD, it was a one-off ship whose capabilities are pretty much unknown
b) Detonating the munitions/fuel inside the hangar of a ship would take down almost every ship, even SSDs. That is not indicative of combat performance.

[Connor MacLeod]

ROTJ novelization has the Falcon and a bunch of fighters attacking the Imperial comm ship through the hangar and there is of course TPM. The comic torpedoes typically tend to be larger too - cylindrical rather than conical.

That said, the comics to my knowledge (at least the Rogue Squadron ones) haven't ever shown an ISD actually destroyed by starfighter attacks. At most you get shields knocked down by a squadron or wing (Krennel's ISD IIRC by Y-wings, though IIRC there was also an interdictor Star destroyer) In the novels you only shields knocked down and "soft kills" (IE the hull intact - and in that incident the shields of an Interdictor were knocked down by the same volley that were nearly knocked down the VSD's shields, IIRC - so there's some inconsistency there.)

It's worth noting, I think that the Executor was expected to require 3000 some capital ship munitions to take down in Bacta War - likely they'd need dozens for an ISD (comparison of volume). In SOTE it was noted a dozen X-wings couldn't threaten a ISD with "fighter scale" torpedoes.

That doesn't also factor in weird "shield piercing" type technologies which may futz with shields (and we know they exist - there are proton torpedo types optimized for shields)

[Eviscerator]

In Bacta War, the VSD-II Corrupter and Interdictor Aggregator ambushed Rogue Sqn and a buncha freighters at Alderaan. Wedge or someone else acknowledged that they were pretty well screwed because even if they did take down the Vic's shields, all the Captain had to do was roll the ship to present undamaged shields (which they did).

Rogue SQN was only saved by the introduction of an Alderaan War Cruiser thx to the Alderaanian IFF on one of the Rogue's X-wings.

Rogue SQN, however elite and powerful are still a squadron of snubs and barring handwaving or miracles cannot and do not take down capital ships on their own. Which is why Wedge didn't order an attack on the SSD Lusankya when it broke out of Coruscant

[Eviscerator]

With that over with, what are common tactics in relation to mid-range and close quarters combat used on both sides and how would a victory be achieved using them?
For instance: medium sized force of Space Marines assault a dug in position held by and equal or greater number of Stormtroopers; defending weapons are standard to large sized blaster rifles, E-webs, thermal detonators (there's probably more stuff that could be there, feel free to add) Terrain is something like Hamburger Hill i.e entrenched gun placements and difficult uphill fighting. I don't know too much about WH4K, so what would be an appropriate force for this scenario?
.

Do either side have off-map support, like for the Stormies air/artillery and SM, Thunderhawk or artillery? A medium sized force of SM ... lets say it as 5 squads = approx 45 then. What type of squads, Tactical, Assault, Terminator, etc? Because the tactics will vary according to SM squad makeup, example a completely Assault Marine force will be able to close the distance really fast using jump packs and 45 Terminators... lets just say the Stormies better have an Star Destroyer orbiting overhead...

[takemeout_totheblack]

Do either side have off-map support, like for the Stormies air/artillery and SM, Thunderhawk or artillery? A medium sized force of SM ... lets say it as 5 squads = approx 45 then. What type of squads, Tactical, Assault, Terminator, etc? Because the tactics will vary according to SM squad makeup, example a completely Assault Marine force will be able to close the distance really fast using jump packs and 45 Terminators... lets just say the Stormies better have an Star Destroyer orbiting overhead...

Well, lets not get too complicated with miscellanea such as orbital bombardment and mega-armor. Since I'm not entirely sure what does what and why in the WH40K universe, maybe some info on assault and tactical armor? As for Terminator armor, this is supposed to be a fairly ordinary battle, so there's no need to bring out anything amazing and super powerful. Could a Jump-Pack assault be thwarted or at least weakened by concentrated E-web AA?

[Simon_Jester]

To some extent, probably- that or specialized man-portable AA weapons. Assault marines aren't that fast, after all.

Assault Marines are close combat specialists who use jet packs to reach close combat at aircraft speeds (limit is probably a few hundred km/h, I think). They wear the same armor as standard Marines; I'll leave rating the armor to someone else. But they carry machine pistols and close combat weapons instead of automatic rifles.

Standard Marines are generalists who carry what is, for them, an automatic rifle*, usually with some heavy weapons support mixed into the squad (antitank energy weapons or missile launchers, superheavy versions of their standard rifle, flamethrowers, that kind of thing).

*Since they're freaking huge and wear power armor, it's a very heavy automatic rifle, more like an automatic grenade launcher, really...

[Eviscerator]

Assault Marines are close combat specialists who use jet packs to reach close combat at aircraft speeds (limit is probably a few hundred km/h, I think). They wear the same armor as standard Marines; I'll leave rating the armor to someone else. But they carry machine pistols and close combat weapons instead of automatic rifles.

Standard Marines are generalists who carry what is, for them, an automatic rifle*, usually with some heavy weapons support mixed into the squad (antitank energy weapons or missile launchers, superheavy versions of their standard rifle, flamethrowers, that kind of thing).

*Since they're freaking huge and wear power armor, it's a very heavy automatic rifle, more like an automatic grenade launcher, really...

Not so, Assault Marines carry Bolt Pistols which fire the exact same projectile as the standard Marine Bolter, just that in game the range is halved.

Its stated in several sources that the weapons carried by Astartes are different than those wielded by other troops, to illustrate, a Marine's combat knife has about the same dimensions as an short sword a normal character would carry. An Imperial Guard flamegun operator only able to use one flame canister etc.

Standard Marines carry what for other 40k troops are heavy weapons and Terminator Marines carry weapons that are normally mounted on armored fighting vehicles.

[Simon_Jester]

Not so, Assault Marines carry Bolt Pistols which fire the exact same projectile as the standard Marine Bolter, just that in game the range is halved.

I may not have been especially clear, but I don't think I said anything that is "not so."

I said machine pistols for a reason; the Astartes bolt pistol is functionally equivalent to a submachine gun- reduced effective range, but still fully automatic. The best analogy might be certain real-life SMGs like the Uzi that are at least sort of capable of being fired in one hand.

The Assault Marines are still close combat specialists: close combat is not the same as melee only, even in 40k (notice that the rules count pistols as extra weapons for the Assault phase).

Its stated in several sources that the weapons carried by Astartes are different than those wielded by other troops, to illustrate, a Marine's combat knife has about the same dimensions as an short sword a normal character would carry. An Imperial Guard flamegun operator only able to use one flame canister etc.

Standard Marines carry what for other 40k troops are heavy weapons and Terminator Marines carry weapons that are normally mounted on armored fighting vehicles.

Yes, this is true.

But for the Marines, they're still carrying a mix of automatic rifles and squad heavy weapons. A standard bolter or storm bolter would be a heavy weapon to you or me, and would certainly have heavy weapon effects (sort of like an automatic grenade launcher). But to Ultramarine #563 it's an automatic rifle. It's just a big automatic rifle, because he's a big man and carries big weapons anyway.

Ditto for the Marine's heavy weapons. They can take a crew-served weapon, put a rifle stock on it, and use it as a man-portable heavy weapon; in principle they could probably take tank-grade guns and make them crew-served heavy weapons, but they usually don't*.

*Except Thunderfire cannons, I suppose.

[Eviscerator]

Not so, Assault Marines carry Bolt Pistols which fire the exact same projectile as the standard Marine Bolter, just that in game the range is halved.

I may not have been especially clear, but I don't think I said anything that is "not so."

I said machine pistols for a reason; the Astartes bolt pistol is functionally equivalent to a submachine gun- reduced effective range, but still fully automatic. The best analogy might be certain real-life SMGs like the Uzi that are at least sort of capable of being fired in one hand.

A machine pistol by definition fires pistol caliber rounds, which an Bolt Pistol does not as it fires the same .75 caliber round the Bolter does.
Example , HK 53 should properly be called an compact assault rifle rather than a smg as it fires an rifle cal round. *mutter even though in Jane's guide to guns it shows up in the SMG section....

It follows that the Bolt Pistol causes the same damage as the Bolter so it should not be classed as an Machine Pistol

[Eviscerator]

But for the Marines, they're still carrying a mix of automatic rifles and squad heavy weapons. A standard bolter or storm bolter would be a heavy weapon to you or me, and would certainly have heavy weapon effects (sort of like an automatic grenade launcher). But to Ultramarine #563 it's an automatic rifle. It's just a big automatic rifle, because he's a big man and carries big weapons anyway.

Ditto for the Marine's heavy weapons. They can take a crew-served weapon, put a rifle stock on it, and use it as a man-portable heavy weapon; in principle they could probably take tank-grade guns and make them crew-served heavy weapons, but they usually don't*.

.

Alright heré's an example: 40K AFVs employ heavy bolters, storm bolters, lascannons as weapons, all of which SM Devastators can and do employ routinely, making them effectively walking AFVs with less armor. And in case of Terminators, more armor
To put this in context imagine troops armed with Miniguns or other such heavy stuff going up against normal troops. Cue the slaughter.

Imperial Guard do not normally employ heavy bolters, or assault cannons using their strength alone unless its a very brawny individual, and in fact the Munitorum does not recommend firing of bolters on anything other than single shot for normal IG troops. Compare this to SM firing : DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA - change mag - DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA.

And that;s one reason why IG hold SM in awe, they wield what's to them support stuff like nobody;s business.

[Ryan Thunder]

To put this in context imagine troops armed with Miniguns or other such heavy stuff going up against normal troops. Cue the slaughterammo shortages.

Reality's a bitch sometimes.

[Eviscerator]

Ah-ha and whos to say a SM can't dump his depleted ammo backpack, and get a new one mounted in double quick time while his squadmates cover him? Besides SM's train EXCESSIVELY (their training schedule reads like a nightmare) and their rounds go where they'd like them to most of the time.... unlike Orks...

[Simon_Jester]

A machine pistol by definition fires pistol caliber rounds, which an Bolt Pistol does not as it fires the same .75 caliber round the Bolter does.
Example , HK 53 should properly be called an compact assault rifle rather than a smg as it fires an rifle cal round. *mutter even though in Jane's guide to guns it shows up in the SMG section....

It follows that the Bolt Pistol causes the same damage as the Bolter so it should not be classed as an Machine Pistol

Ah. I see. And the laspistol does the same damage as the lasgun, and should likewise be classed as a rifle, not a pistol? Ditto for the autopistol/autogun, which fire solid shot and cannot be excused as "well, it's an energy weapon, so technically it's neither a pistol nor a rifle nor an SMG?"

Seriously, all standard human-wielded basic infantry weapons in 40k do S3, AP- damage. That's a balance thing, not a "the ammunition is physically identical" thing. Likewise, all iterations on the standard bolter do S4, AP5+ damage, even though there are wild differences in weapon design between the bolt pistol of a Space Marine and that of a human commissar. Cartridges that an Astartes could practically fire off their nose would break the commissar's wrists; surely they're not chambered for the same round? And yet they do the same damage on the tabletop, and get the same number of attacks per round.

Alright heré's an example: 40K AFVs employ heavy bolters, storm bolters, lascannons as weapons, all of which SM Devastators can and do employ routinely, making them effectively walking AFVs with less armor. And in case of Terminators, more armor

Yes. I understand that. What I don't understand is how any of this makes any of what I said not true. The difference between Assault Marines and regular Marines remains that the Assault Marines are close combat specialists carrying appropriately sized close-ranged automatic weapons, which I identified as machine pistols because they are very clearly described as pistols and yet are fully automatic weapons). By contrast, regular Marines carry appropriately sized automatic "rifles" and a mix of appropriately sized heavy weapons.

Note the "appropriately sized" bit, which you seem to be dwelling on as if I had somehow contradicted it.

Imperial Guard do not normally employ heavy bolters, or assault cannons using their strength alone unless its a very brawny individual, and in fact the Munitorum does not recommend firing of bolters on anything other than single shot for normal IG troops. Compare this to SM firing : DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA - change mag - DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA.

On the contrary, heavy bolters are a common Guard support weapon; it's just that they are a support weapon, comparable to a large tripod-mounted medium or heavy machine gun (two men to carry it, among other things). With a few freakish exceptions they don't carry them individually, of course, but the same could be said of the M2.

To put this in context imagine troops armed with Miniguns or other such heavy stuff going up against normal troops. Cue the slaughterammo shortages.

Reality's a bitch sometimes.

Eh. Since they're very trained (overtrained, maybe even), and have superhuman reflexes and senses, I've always imagined them in practice firing aimed single shots or bursts so fast that a normal human observer has trouble telling it from full automatic fire, because they can acquire targets about as fast as you can blink.

For Space Marines to spray and pray makes no kind of sense, given how deadly they're supposed to be and how ammo-hungry most of their weapons are.

[Connor MacLeod]

Okay, I'll try to keep as this brief and simple yet as comprehensive as possible. I'll cite specific references I can RECALL and summarize SM durability.

First and foremost, two factors dictate SM durability. The power armor is the obvious one, but physique is another. SM have a highly redundant physical body. some multiple organs, additional "sub dermal" sort of armoring (The chest shield and black carapace), and so on. So, penetrating armor doesnt neccesarily guarantee a kill. This can be even more true of CSM - as chaos mutations often include some facility for improving durability even in mere cultists (or at least an ability to ignore shock and pain long enough to be a danger) especially when it comes to Nurgle favored marines.

A second, and equally vital point that plays a role here: Armor in real life As I recall is not 100% effective, it is mostly or even nearly always effective, but there are exceptions. In RL with bullets this is I think referred to as the V-50 mark or something to that effect (that a bullet might penetrate 50% of the time). Another key point to consider (and will receive a separate category) is that SM armor protects different areas differently. There are exposed joints and flexible areas, some areas of the body also will simply just not be as thickly armored more than likely. So a well aimed shot (eg a sniper) can also "take down" a marine even without overwhelming firepower.

First category? Individual weapons guaranteed to bring down a Space Marine independent of accuracy. In this category we have melta weapons (including meltabombs), plasma weapons, missile launchers, krak grenades, and lascannon/multilasers. Basically they overwhelm weapons by sheer firepower (mid to high MJ, low GJ or more - the latter skewed more towards energy weapons anyhow.) as well as inflicting damage over a large area (plasma weapons burn or explode a large part of the body, meltaweapons melt/vape, missile launchers, krak grenades and melta weapons are high end weapons with anti tank firepower - eg OVerkill in penetration.)

Autocannon and heavy bolters *can* penetrate SM armour, but alot of the time it depends on calibre. Some autocannon have been resisted by SM armour (Nightbrigher) while in others it hasn't (Ghostmaker.) We know SM armour consistently resists heavy stubber and even Ork firearms (which can go up to 20mm - hell Carapace can stand up to at least a couple heavy stubber shots) so the cutoff point is (conjecture on my part) 30-40mm or less (40mm is more definite, givne Honour guard, but 30mm is also possible).

SM bolters are a bit of a gray area too.. they're arguably more powerful than heavy stubbers, but not neccesairly autocannon grade, and yet they can penetrate armor - at least with multiple shots. Bolters as a rule rely on the kinetic/impact effects of the bullet for penetration at least and some damage effects (at least if they tumble - the explosive rounds don't fragment as a rule) and the explosive payload for the area damage effects, the exact "properties" of the bolt are kinda vague (and oculd vary with ammo anyways, sinc eammo varies as a rule) so SM bolters could overlap with "targeted" shots category as well - SM are very good shots and often control their fire.

SW weapons in this category are: disruptors, power blasters/anti-armour heavy blasters (a special category analogous to antimaterial rifles, some of which ar sniper rifles), repeating blasters (light, medium and heavy - I include the light because its arguably got 4 more power than a blaster rifle as well as a high rate of fire, ta least if you run it off the backpack. Siome heavy blaster rifles may fit into this category, but I'll detail with that next for certain reasons. Sufficiently high yield concussion grenades likely can (if shaped), but proton grenades and thermal detonators are a definite. There are also bazooka like man portable "blaster cannon" which ought to penetrate.

Disruptors are a special consideration - they carry eXTREME firepower for their size, but generally suck in terms of range and firepower. I wouldnt think they'd be used except in CQB as a backup weapon (since anything short of a high end war droid will generally suck against a SM in close combat, and if they dont make the single shot the lack of range or recharge won't matter.) but disruptors do such extensive damage over large areas they qualify (sort of the closest SW gets to a meltagun.)

Second cateogry: Weapons that are fairly powerful and can bring down a Space Marine if employed in numbers, accuracy generally unimportant. This category is predominantly hellguns, but it can include pulse rifles, shuriken weapons, non Astartes bolters, and so on. The best example of this in my mind is "Hunter, Prey" when 30 or so hellgun shots downed a CSM in a single volley, melting/boiling the chest plate and damaging the body beneath. Basically as above, but you use multiple weapons to do it. Given 30 hellguns, its unlikley normal lasguns can do this in any reasonable timeframe unless they're on full auto at max (which generally means close range), or are using overcharged/hotshot packs (which cuts into their lifespan, and basically puts them in the Hellgun category for all intents and purposes.)

SW guns in this category are definitely heavy blasters. The reason I didnt put heavy blasters in the previous category is that, generally, SW guns are matched to hellguns nad probably pulse weapons and those won't be a guaranteed "one shot" penetration, and not a guarnateed one shot kill, and the ROF is not neccsearily "high" enough. Then again its a bit of a gray area, and some heavy blasters *could* possibly do it even with one shot kills.

I suppose its possible normal blaster rifles on a very high setting could do it (similar to a lasgun) but I'm personally not confident that it would make that much diff unless its a fairly large standard rifle. Could always get "lucky", or rate of fire might help (blasters arguably can develop better rates of fire, at least on some power modes anyhow.)

Category three is weapons that are not neccesarily super powerful, but can "kill" if well aimed. Here I include max power lasgun shots (First and Only), Hellgun and hotshot lasgun shots (they can penetrate armor, but they dont neccesarily kill unless you hit the right spot or you fire alot of them), any bolter, large calibre rifles (basically any AMR, as long as you are aiming for weak spots)

The vast majority of these examples will generally be headshots (if the shot has enough power to penetrate the helmet - eg long las) or shots to the weakened joints at the neck area or so to "take the head off" (maximum power lasgun shot - demonstrated in First and Only.) Blowing off an arm or leg does nothing - Larraman cells gurantee they won't bleed out, and they're designed to fight even with limbs blown off. Shots to the chest, disregarding the Black carapace and bone shield in the chest, also are a problem because only a heart shot is likely to do that, and to guarnatee a killshot you'd need to take both out (not impossible, but difficult and more likely to be accomplished by Category one weapons)

I include AMR grade weapons simply because depending on calibre and where you aim it oculd be done (although unless the round hits right it might jsut glance off - its been known to happen even to bolter rounds.)

Generally, any SW rifle could do this, except maybe disruptor rifles (lacking range and accuracy generally.) Heavy blaster rifles would be better, as would longer barreled "normal" blasters.

Overall, tactics against Space Marines by SW forces will either duplicate the IG or the Tau. You want to combine heavy firepower with numbers, range, and mobility or a fortified position. Space Marines will invariably have the advantage due to greater speed, strength, durability, and marksmanship over your average SW trooper, but these advantages become more prounounced the closer they are and their tactics reflect this (SMs are designed for CQB and shock troops, hence are quite good in drop pod or thunderhawk deployed assaults, or boarding actions.) That means, keeping them away from your troops while you hammer them with as much firepower as you can. Ideally you want artillery support of course, and that would slaughter Marines, but in an infantry only fight range and firepower are your best friends. Speed can offset lack of numbers (as long as you have ammo) in that it'll keep the enemy away from you. A decently fortified position could do likewise, although no fortification is impregnable and that just invites drop pod assault, so mobility is better there. Numbers is an obvious advnatage - more guns (and coldly more bodies to sacrifice) means oyu can take them down faster.

The key in all situations will be concentrated fire with most non-heavy weapons - at long range you'll use groups of troopers employing single shots (at max power) or short bursts. At close range you want full auto at max to maximize the number of shots spraying out. Heavy weapons (repeating blasters and whatnot) will use automatic fire regardless and you better have a backpack supply for them. Sniper and Marksmen will always be at long range, going for headshots. Portable artillery and heavy repeating blasters (and other weapons) are a plus, as are large theatre shields (several km radius at least) if not planetary shields, since they'd hamper drop pod assaults.

[Connor MacLeod]

Addendum regarding mobility - this isn't likely to be an optimum strategy because I dont think most marines would willingly fall for it - I mean chase an enemy on foot while their adversaries move by vehicle. More likely they'd just call for a vehicle of their own, and it simply becomes a vehicle combat (killing the APC before they catch up with you or kill you.) More likely you'd see this with jump or repulsor pack equipped troops (which would likewise have to play keepaway from Assault marines) or power armored infantry like spacetroopers (the lighter more agile suits, not the blocky Terminator like ones that are a mini spaceship.) Besides, mobility just begs for a whirlwind barrage, Thunderhawk strike, or orbital drop pod strike, and no SW ground vehicle, hoever or otherwise, can outrun a thunderhawk. Hell, Thunderhawks outdo an LAAT for speed in-atmosphere.

Ambushes or a fortified position (both used by Tau and the Guard) are more likely to bring results so long as the range can be kept open for as long as possible.

[Connor MacLeod]

IMO neither one of those are conclusive evidence. It is never explicitly stated that the E-Web is capable of taking down a starfighter. In the comic, the strormtrooper could simply be firing to be firing, hoping that he'd catch one with the shields down, and in the case of the Millenium Falcon, they could easily be trying to damage it before the shields were raised.

The reason I'm arguing this is that I do have expicit evidence against it. In the book X-Wing: Isard's Revenge, on page 65 a stomtrooper operating an E-Web fires at passing X-Wings, causing no effect. To quote Wedge, "Infantry weapons never work well on starfighter targets." I'd say that disproved that notion.

As I recall they attempted to cripple the Falcon with a lucky hit to an exposed or lightly armored area, they weren't expecting it to be totally blasted apart. In principle its not impossible for an E-Web to carry starfighter grade firepower - its bound to be not a great deal smaller than a TIE's lasers, anyways - but it probably would do so in a more limited degree. You also have to remember the definition of "fighter" grade firepower can go into the gigajoule range too (Slave-1's blasters vs its heavy lasers)

The thing with shields is that they aren't "all encompassing" - we see in the movies that despite shielding X-wing can still be taken down with single hits if they strike the right spot (and this is with shields "distributed" - there are gaps and weak points evidently you can exploit. It's likely thats why the E-webs bother firing on fighters (again trying for a "lucky hit"). Shields in an atmosphere also have to deal with the atmospheric friction (they have aerodynamic functions for fighters in-atmosphere as I recall, and moving at any speed is bound to degrade shield performance, nevermind ion thrust)

[takemeout_totheblack]

So, the scenario most likely to yield the most impartial battle would be a contingent of Space Marines (>100 <1000) attack a sort of fortified base-like structure holding a greater number of Stormtroopers (>2000), some form of theater shield to prevent drop pod assaults, and numerous E-web emplacements in addition to battlements for snipers and troopers to line the walls with weapons ranging from standard issue blaster rifle, large blaster rifles, heavy blasters, any number of explosives and maybe even emergency disintegratiors for close quarters combat.
Vehicle and artillery support on both sides should be light if present at all and the Space Marines, since they are the attacking force, should be outfitted with somewhat heavier weapons and armor.
Does that sound about right?

[Darksider]

A quick question about high-power blaster shots. Connor mentioned max power shots from normal blasters could inflict damage if fired en masse, but what about single shot-drain the power pack in one go shots like the one they used to breach the door of the Tantive IV? Would a shot at that power level kill an SM in one hit, or would it take multiple shots to do it?

[Serafina]

A quick question about high-power blaster shots. Connor mentioned max power shots from normal blasters could inflict damage if fired en masse, but what about single shot-drain the power pack in one go shots like the one they used to breach the door of the Tantive IV? Would a shot at that power level kill an SM in one hit, or would it take multiple shots to do it?

I guess it would breach the armor, propably even the chest armor, and inflict serious damage (possibly enough to make the SM unable to fight), but i guess it won't kill unless it is a headshot.
Space Marines are, after all, really hard to kill - heck, Marines can survive having half their brain blown off (well, something close at least).

[Connor MacLeod]

So, the scenario most likely to yield the most impartial battle would be a contingent of Space Marines (>100 <1000) attack a sort of fortified base-like structure holding a greater number of Stormtroopers (>2000), some form of theater shield to prevent drop pod assaults, and numerous E-web emplacements in addition to battlements for snipers and troopers to line the walls with weapons ranging from standard issue blaster rifle, large blaster rifles, heavy blasters, any number of explosives and maybe even emergency disintegratiors for close quarters combat.
Vehicle and artillery support on both sides should be light if present at all and the Space Marines, since they are the attacking force, should be outfitted with somewhat heavier weapons and armor.
Does that sound about right?

I don't see any situation where Space Marines would attack worlds of the GE, at least not important worlds, without support from the other arms of the military (Guard, Titans, Navy, etc.) Planetary shielding will prove a huge hinderance to invasion, even at the local scale, because it denies them the ability to deploy close in to their enemies or benefit from aerial/orbital support. They're still good at a range, but other forces can fight just as well at range so they are wasted. Once you get them under the shield they might be of some value (charging strongpoints, fortified positions, whatever.) but theres no way in hell they could practicably get that close on their own. More to the point I doubt they would attack in that manner knowingly, not without support either.

Space marines on their own would be better off as raiding/rapid strike forces, basically hunting down isolated and weak targets to attack. They'd be especially good in space, but any place likely to not have a planetary shield (ie worse ff than your typical Imperial Garrison IIRC) - even prefab bases are shielded to some extent.

[Connor MacLeod]

A quick question about high-power blaster shots. Connor mentioned max power shots from normal blasters could inflict damage if fired en masse, but what about single shot-drain the power pack in one go shots like the one they used to breach the door of the Tantive IV? Would a shot at that power level kill an SM in one hit, or would it take multiple shots to do it?

Where are you getting the idea of a "single shot drain to the pack" type gun from? I've never heard of them using something like that to breacn the TIV's door.

[Lord Relvenous]

IMO neither one of those are conclusive evidence. It is never explicitly stated that the E-Web is capable of taking down a starfighter. In the comic, the strormtrooper could simply be firing to be firing, hoping that he'd catch one with the shields down, and in the case of the Millenium Falcon, they could easily be trying to damage it before the shields were raised.

The reason I'm arguing this is that I do have expicit evidence against it. In the book X-Wing: Isard's Revenge, on page 65 a stomtrooper operating an E-Web fires at passing X-Wings, causing no effect. To quote Wedge, "Infantry weapons never work well on starfighter targets." I'd say that disproved that notion.

As I recall they attempted to cripple the Falcon with a lucky hit to an exposed or lightly armored area, they weren't expecting it to be totally blasted apart. In principle its not impossible for an E-Web to carry starfighter grade firepower - its bound to be not a great deal smaller than a TIE's lasers, anyways - but it probably would do so in a more limited degree. You also have to remember the definition of "fighter" grade firepower can go into the gigajoule range too (Slave-1's blasters vs its heavy lasers)

Yeah, my post was poorly written. I was actually trying to get at your first point there (damaging it by hitting it in weak armor areas).

About heavy weapons versus SM, they definitely have the capability, I just see a problem in bringing it to bear. If your writing a fanfic, I'd keep that in mind. SMs don't always stride in battle like bad-asses, they do take cover, and aiming an AT weapon at a highly mobile, fairly small target (compared to a vehicle) isn't a walk in the park. However, there are most likely autonomous targeting systems for SW that would handle that okay, as their tech base is high. From what I've read, the best case scenario for AT weapons reliably hitting SM is in ambush situations, and if the SMs are assaulting the SW forces, that's unlikely to happen. Connor can probably tell you more about the targeting abilities available to SW forces. I'm just pointing out that just because they have the capability doesn't mean it's a done thing.

[takemeout_totheblack]

How about a bit of a story or background info?
Errrm... On a distant planet, outer-rim sort of place with no actual sentient population save a smallish Imperial prefab base, the Warp opens up and spits out a single Imperium escort ship. A small destroyer, around 750m long, is disoriented and too close to the planet. A controlled crash later and a company of Space Marines are stranded planet-side with no way of calling for help. While trudging around the forest looking for potentially useful debris that may have come off of their ship, they catch a scout trooper unawares. They take him and his speeder back the wreck and extract some info from him, general facts about the Empire, the SW galaxy, location of his base, etc. One of the Tech-Marines comes back from inspecting the speeder and decides that the tech, though somewhat heretical to his sensibilities, could be made compatible with some effort. With that they head off to siege the base and use it as spare parts to either make repairs or at the very least find a way to send a distress signal.

Could that work?

[Lord Relvenous]

Hmm I suggest you read up some more on SM. Maybe try to find some info online. So about your story, there are a few points that need correction. First of all, all SM chapters have their own transport fleet, the majority of the ships being Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges. For o e hundred marines, you're looking at a full Strike cruiser or a battle barge (IIRC, Connor could clarify). These transport ships always carry Thunderhawks, drop pods, and depending on the mission, armored vehicles, so the SMs would have that support and deployment options (though the drop pods would be next to worthless). Lastly, 100 marines is quite a force and a very rare one to deploy all together. It's similar to making a real world scenario involving 100 Navy SEALs deploying together; it just doesn't happen except in the most rare cases. I'm short on time, but that's a quick rundown. Others can provide some more detailed comments.