Tyranids vs the Galactic Empire

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm skeptical that if it has the choice between fast or slow, the hive mind is going for slow. Considering how methodical the Tyranids like to be, I'm sure they'd accelerate the process if anything. Furthermore, Imperium ships are somewhat sluggish--well, I admit it does vary--and it could come down to the insane variation that hiveships have.

Why? Accelerating the process means going faster, and going faster means expenditure of resources. Even if we dont know quite HOW the Tyranids use resources or how efficiently, they still USE resources. Why rush and waste what may be useful later (and you dont know when or if it might) when you don't need to?

And yes, it could come down to variation, but its likely given the OP that the variations are going to be lumped together (which means a communication of ideas/info/genetics/whatnot.)

Well, in the game I mentioned, all it took was one generator to apparently envelop an entire world, but said generator was positioned on its orbiting moon. However, I think there are examples of generators doing such a thing whilst remaining on the world they're enveloping--either way, I'd think that a planetary shield generator network could easily be built with the resources of its own planet, but of course facilities are the question, and this is a hard thing to address. As for weather, I'm doubtful about that, as it does appear that air and atmosphere does pass through it, otherwise we'd have troops suffocating on Hoth.

We don't know much about the Endor Generators, or even if it WAS a single generator - we hardly saw the whole planet, and the bulk of evidecne points to planetary shield systems being networks (needing multiple relays and projectors at least, even if there is a single generator - which seems rather dangerous and foolish to me.) Besides, Endor was smaller than most in habitable planets.

As far as Hoth goes - we never saw the shield operated for prolonged periods of time, and it certainly wasn't encompassing the ENTIRE planet. There's more than just air though. What about the waste heat the planet generates? how do they get rid of that? Where does it go? How about sunlight - does it let it all in or just parts of it? So on and so forth. How do shield interactions iwth the atmosphere affect things? There's alot of shield volume and alot of planet to consider.

Humanity, maybe...but remember, we're not just talking humans here. I'll admit that fortifying every single world is a bit of an undertaking, to say the fucking least, but we can agree that it can be done effectively for the ones that matter. And then again, not all species will be as unresiliant as humies are. However, if the Empire manages to work out in which direction the hive fleets are coming in, it could perhaps isolate which worlds need to be built up--after all, there are some places in the 40k galaxy that the Tyranids aren't visiting any time soon.

Humanity is a significant portion of the SW galaxy, and it takes a dominant role in the galaxy during the GE era anyhow. "The Ones that matter" are likely to be all the core worlds (at least the human ones) and they'll already be fortified with shielding. If anything the Core (and its pro human population) are likely to say "fuck off" to the aliens - thinking that it might occupy the Tyranids while they prepare.

And yes, they might track and isolate probable paths. The Imperium does that too, so thee's no reason the Empire couldn't. Although that just means the Tyranids go AROUND, unless its pretty damn extensive. Or they do what Leviathan does and come up from the galactic plane.

Ah, but you must remember, one of the reasons he built up the Empire in the first place was the threat of the Vong. It's no stretch to assume that Palps may even assume the Tyranids to be the Vong themselves. Now, of course, we don't know how he would have acted in the event of the Vong coming, but it is safe to assume that even if he doesn't act perfectly competent 100% of the time, he will at least try and ensure the sanctity of the Empire.

No, he built up the Empire because he's a selfish sadistic fuck who think sonly of his own self aggrandizement (nevermind his own godhood, especially later on) and because he wanted revenge against the Jedi and domination of the galaxy. The Vong might have been a factor in that (after all he can't rule if they're conquering territory can he) and he might spin that as a reason to paint him as altruistic, but let's not pretend he's anything but an evil bastard, alright?

[Srelex]

No, he built up the Empire because he's a selfish sadistic fuck who think sonly of his own self aggrandizement (nevermind his own godhood, especially later on) and because he wanted revenge against the Jedi and domination of the galaxy. The Vong might have been a factor in that (after all he can't rule if they're conquering territory can he) and he might spin that as a reason to paint him as altruistic, but let's not pretend he's anything but an evil bastard, alright?

Well, he is an evil bastard. Albeit one who's one not going to try and throw his rule away if it comes under such a threat.

[Srelex]

Why? Accelerating the process means going faster, and going faster means expenditure of resources. Even if we dont know quite HOW the Tyranids use resources or how efficiently, they still USE resources. Why rush and waste what may be useful later (and you dont know when or if it might) when you don't need to?

So Tyranids also use biomass as fuel? In fact, what do they use as propulsion?

We don't know much about the Endor Generators, or even if it WAS a single generator - we hardly saw the whole planet, and the bulk of evidecne points to planetary shield systems being networks (needing multiple relays and projectors at least, even if there is a single generator - which seems rather dangerous and foolish to me.) Besides, Endor was smaller than most in habitable planets
stard, alright?

I'm not referring to Endor, I'm talking about Thule, a planet featured in the 2002 Clone Wars game.

[Simon_Jester]

If I recall correctly, the speed of Warp travel is highly unreliable. There have been instances where fleets have arrived decades or centuries after they left.

Or, for that matter, before they left. I think there's a short story involving a time travel paradox, wherein a unit winds up sent through the warp to answer its own distress call- either their distress call propagated back in time, or they did.

Yes, in the 40K galaxy. Where the warp is all kinds of fucked up. Is there some reason to believe the Warp in SW would be exactly the same? I don't remember Chaos Gods existing in the Star Wars galaxy. And even then, surely you aren't assuming Darth Maul and the Falcon (or for that matter Jedi Starfighters) represent "typical speeds" as opposed to being an order of magnitude (or so) benchmark of the capabilities of hyperdrive?

Didn't the Republic bring in fleets from the galactic rim to reinforce the defenses of Coruscant in Episode III? The battle can't have lasted more than a few days; that would require very fast trip times.

On another note, while there's no specific reason to assume major Warp turbulence in the Star Wars galaxy, the speeds of warp travel in 40k are the only benchmark we have for how fast their ships can travel. The reduced turbulence might make for higher speeds; on the other hand it might actually slow them down because there isn't as much warp to interact with in the first place (sort of the way the Tau are restricted to slow FTL travel because of their lack of psychics). If we don't assume it works the same in both settings we're completely lost at sea, I'd say.

Er, what evidence d you have the JEdi acn actually detect the Shadow in the Warp? They aren't connected ot the warp, and if they were, that wouldnt be a good thing.

I think she's assuming that the Force and the warp are related phenomena: the Shadow would register as a moving 'disturbance in the Force'. Of course, if that's true, Jedi that move to the 40k Milky Way are screwed, but we're doing this in the Star Wars galaxy, so the extreme strength of the warp in 40k won't have the same effect.

[Talk738kno]

Er, what evidence d you have the JEdi acn actually detect the Shadow in the Warp? They aren't connected ot the warp, and if they were, that wouldnt be a good thing.

I think she's assuming that the Force and the warp are related phenomena: the Shadow would register as a moving 'disturbance in the Force'. Of course, if that's true, Jedi that move to the 40k Milky Way are screwed, but we're doing this in the Star Wars galaxy, so the extreme strength of the warp in 40k won't have the same effect.[/quote]

Actually, its likely 40k pskyers would get stronger in the GFFA, pskyers are restricted in power in 40k due to Chaos. During the time of the Eldar Empire, when the warp was not as turbulent Eldar pskyers could induce supernovas, mind fuck armies, and destroy planets with there minds. The reason that current eldar don't do that because that much power is going to have souls devoured by Slanndash in short order. Hell, when the Eldar just had swords and arrows, Eldar could hold off entire armies of Nercons single handily.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroomy, you're off by like 4 centuries in the opposite direction. Eisenhorn/Ravenor happened in the 300s M41, IIRC, the Sabbat Worlds Crusade was in the 700s. Hell, there was a character in the books reading Ravenor's Spheres of Longing.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Oh, god damn it. I swear there was some particular incident like what I just said. I heard it somewhere!

[Connor MacLeod]

So Tyranids also use biomass as fuel? In fact, what do they use as propulsion?

Perhaps, we don't really know. It could be they use it as propellant (the stuff they shoot out of the ship to move it) since BFG specifies they seemingly operate on reaction principle (organic version of plasma drives, basically.)

I'm not referring to Endor, I'm talking about Thule, a planet featured in the 2002 Clone Wars game.

The same logic still applies. How the hell do you get a force field ot "curve" around a planet anyhow? You'd need something on the other side to manipulate it with (projector and/or relays)

[Connor MacLeod]

Or, for that matter, before they left. I think there's a short story involving a time travel paradox, wherein a unit winds up sent through the warp to answer its own distress call- either their distress call propagated back in time, or they did.

That was Desert Raiders, the IG novel about the Tallarn you're describing. It happened in the Rogue Trader novels as well.

Such occurances as those are exceedingly rare, however. Likewise, the occurances of "arriving centuries after the fact" are also exceedingly rare. Given the vast majority of cases there aren't significant deviations in time or travel speed over a given distance (at least beyond, say, an order of magnitdue)

[quoteDidn't the Republic bring in fleets from the galactic rim to reinforce the defenses of Coruscant in Episode III? The battle can't have lasted more than a few days; that would require very fast trip times.[/quote]

If you mean Obi-Wan and Anakin's Open Circle Armada forces, yeah something like that.

On another note, while there's no specific reason to assume major Warp turbulence in the Star Wars galaxy, the speeds of warp travel in 40k are the only benchmark we have for how fast their ships can travel. The reduced turbulence might make for higher speeds; on the other hand it might actually slow them down because there isn't as much warp to interact with in the first place (sort of the way the Tau are restricted to slow FTL travel because of their lack of psychics). If we don't assume it works the same in both settings we're completely lost at sea, I'd say.

We know how the Warp works broadly and why it hampers fast and reliable travel - the warp is disturbed by the emotional eddies of lots and lots of psychically attuned individulas and races (like humanity.) Chaos and the others feed on that. The currents make warp travel unpredictable and rough (much like waves and currents of an ocean can toss ships and make progress difficult) Which basically means that warp travel means following a "path" or route through it that is generally considered "Safe"but may not necessarily be linear. It also hampers accurate navigation because of the aforemenioned unpredictability (not to mention the general fucking with time and space). Without the turbulence, a more linear and stable path is possible (akin probably to Webway travel, which is much faster).

The one disadvantage though is that actually moving throught he warp will necessitate use of engines, as many of those same "currents" offer a propulsive effect a ship can act against, but its not impossible either.

I think she's assuming that the Force and the warp are related phenomena: the Shadow would register as a moving 'disturbance in the Force'. Of course, if that's true, Jedi that move to the 40k Milky Way are screwed, but we're doing this in the Star Wars galaxy, so the extreme strength of the warp in 40k won't have the same effect.

First: Painrack's a guy, last I remember second, there's no reason to believe the two are remotely similar. They have nothing in common.

[PainRack]

Yes, in the 40K galaxy. Where the warp is all kinds of fucked up. Is there some reason to believe the Warp in SW would be exactly the same? I don't remember Chaos Gods existing in the Star Wars galaxy.

And even then, surely you aren't assuming Darth Maul and the Falcon (or for that matter Jedi Starfighters) represent "typical speeds" as opposed to being an order of magnitude (or so) benchmark of the capabilities of hyperdrive?

So? There is no indication that for longer distances, the Imperium speed is on par with hyperdrive.
While Maul, Anakin/Obiwan and Yoda speeds may be taken as outlier, why should the Falcon be regarded as such? Because she's a smuggler ship?
Han was BROKE and massively in debt. Despite the Falcon speed records, there is no reason to assume that any well designed military craft built for speed could not achieve the same.

Well yes, I'm pretty sure the Tyranids didn't magically gain the ability to invent matter and energy out of nowhere, so they have to expend stuff to get it (although whether they use "fuel" or in what manner is up for debate aside from being "magical". Is there some reason we should assume that such efforts automatically end in failure?

Is there some reason why we should assume the Tyranids will conduct a campaign using hit and run bio-attacks that consume up resources without replenishment?

So does 40K. They're all psychic or waped based, while SW are tachyonic and subspace. Your point?

Said sensors are sensitive enough to pick up Vong ships interstellar based on their gravitic profiles. Its certainly plausible for them to replicate that feat.

Er, what evidence d you have the JEdi acn actually detect the Shadow in the Warp? They aren't connected ot the warp, and if they were, that wouldnt be a good thing.

The Shadow in the Warp is a pyschic element. Based on commonality, we should be assuming that they are able to exist in the pyschic domain in SW as well. If nothing else, Force Precog works.

Hell, isn't this one of the reasons why standard Wh40k vs GE always has the caveat "Chaos don't get involved", otherwise, the standard WH40k poster response is Chaos God screw up Jedi/Sith and fuck everyone?

Are you talking about consuming the world's resources?

I'm talking about the Tyrannid traditional engage in military campaign, overwhelm the world and consume the resources within 100 days. According to NecronLord, this has been overriden.

[Simon_Jester]

If you mean Obi-Wan and Anakin's Open Circle Armada forces, yeah something like that.

Sounds right. Again, that requires very fast travel.

First: Painrack's a guy, last I remember second, there's no reason to believe the two are remotely similar. They have nothing in common.

The first was a silly mistake on my part, and I apologize to PainRack if he was offended.

As to the second, aside from being a psychic energy field that permeates and interacts with all life, you're totally right; the Force is very unlike the warp in its effects. The only reason for assuming any kind of commonality is for the sake of equivalency between settings in a crossover- much like assuming that since Trek shields stop Trek teleportation, then Star Wars shields should probably do the same. I'm not saying this is a required assumption, but it's certainly a common one.

However, even if the Force and warp are completely different, the Tyranids still represent a huge amount of mobile, hungry biomass. While their warp presence may not even be perceptible to Force users, there's no reason to assume that they're completely outside the Force the way some unusual beings in Star Wars are, either.

We know Jedi can sense a disturbance in the Force when a teraton of living creatures are killed; I'd expect them to be able to at least roughly track the movement of teratons of organic matter on the hoof (or on the space drive, as the case may be).

[Srelex]

The same logic still applies. How the hell do you get a force field ot "curve" around a planet anyhow? You'd need something on the other side to manipulate it with (projector and/or relays)

Hey, they got a shield to curve around the Death Star with a single generator, so they could surely do it with a celestial object.

[Simon_Jester]

They might have been able to mount relays or secondary generators on the Death Star superstructure, though.

[Srelex]

They might have been able to mount relays or secondary generators on the Death Star superstructure, though.

That's conjecture, really.

[Simon_Jester]

That's conjecture, really.

Yes.

The question is: do we normally see curved shields require single generators or multiple generators? One generator can produce a curved bubble shield around itself (Episode I with the Gungans, presumably Episode V on Hoth). And unless I'm mistaken small starships with single shield generators can fully cover themselves.

But when we see planetary shield systems in the EU, do they normally have a single mount or multiple mounts? If there are other examples of a single-mount system, it makes more sense to drop the conjecture and figure that one generator* is enough to throw a shield around the Death Star.

If all the other examples we see have multiple dispersed generators, then the conjecture casts doubt on whether the example of Endor can be used to prove that planet-sized curved shields can be generated from a single position. Because while we see only one position, we don't know that there was only one; certainly there were places to put others.

*Or possibly one complex including multiple generator elements in a single building, which amounts to the same thing for strategic purposes.

[Srelex]

Yes.

The question is: do we normally see curved shields require single generators or multiple generators? One generator can produce a curved bubble shield around itself (Episode I with the Gungans, presumably Episode V on Hoth). And unless I'm mistaken small starships with single shield generators can fully cover themselves.

But when we see planetary shield systems in the EU, do they normally have a single mount or multiple mounts? If there are other examples of a single-mount system, it makes more sense to drop the conjecture and figure that one generator* is enough to throw a shield around the Death Star.

If all the other examples we see have multiple dispersed generators, then the conjecture casts doubt on whether the example of Endor can be used to prove that planet-sized curved shields can be generated from a single position. Because while we see only one position, we don't know that there was only one; certainly there were places to put others.

*Or possibly one complex including multiple generator elements in a single building, which amounts to the same thing for strategic purposes.

It honestly depends, as far as I can tell. I've already given an example where we've had a single generator--albeit a massive one, if I remember correctly--enveloping an entire planet. However, I would imagine that planets would have multiple generators, not because they need all of them for a full coverage, but to prevent their entire defence from collapsing due to the loss of one generator. So that would complicate matters.

[Connor MacLeod]

So? There is no indication that for longer distances, the Imperium speed is on par with hyperdrive.

Depends on the numbers you use for speed and distance, and whatnot. I've already said this, many times.

While Maul, Anakin/Obiwan and Yoda speeds may be taken as outlier, why should the Falcon be regarded as such? Because she's a smuggler ship?
Han was BROKE and massively in debt. Despite the Falcon speed records, there is no reason to assume that any well designed military craft built for speed could not achieve the same.

Nice job putting words in my mouth. I never said it was an "outlier", I said that it neccesarily didn't represent HIGH END. Han also ran an illegal ship that was using military grade, highly modified (read: unreliable) gear (the Corporate Sector novels in fact make a big point of this, but the fact of the Falcon in the movies is enough to prove that.) I don't suppose you ever considered that there might be tradeoffs associated with such high speed? REduced hyperdrive endurance for example? Reduced capability to fight (Hyperspace travel, while not as energetic as sublight travel, still requires an insane amount of energy - at least for something of the size and performance range of an ISD anyhow. Again alot of it depends on variables.)

Is there some reason why we should assume the Tyranids will conduct a campaign using hit and run bio-attacks that consume up resources without replenishment?

First: the same reasoning behind the idea to encompass every habitable world in a planetary shield? IE "Its not been actually done or demonstrated they can, but its definitely possible within what we know of them to do. Much like the idea of creating millions or billions of ISDs from the amount of mateiral the DS has. Or are you going to tell me somehow the TYRANIDS are incapable of producing bioweapons?

Second: There you go putting words in my mouth again. Did I ever say "without replenishment?" You have this anonying habit of making shit up that I don't neccesarily say. And this is on top of deciding to dodge around answering MY question by asking one of your own - something I consider to be rather dishonest. By the way ARE you going to answer the question, or are you going to pretend it doesn't exist?

Said sensors are sensitive enough to pick up Vong ships interstellar based on their gravitic profiles. Its certainly plausible for them to replicate that feat.

Last I recall the only values we had on SW grav sensors was the CGT sensors, and those on a starhsip were hundreds of thousands of km in range at best (and they still could be futzed up by nearby planetary bodies.) So they'd need something pretty large and sensitive and probably located away from most of the settled portions of the galaxy to work like that. Of course, we could point out in 5th editon the Vong Narvahl's have sensors tht can apparetly sense via gravity over "FTL" distances too I am also trying not ot laugh at the idea that we are talking about "FTL gravity" as if gravity sensors were really meaningful in any sense.

The Shadow in the Warp is a pyschic element. Based on commonality, we should be assuming that they are able to exist in the pyschic domain in SW as well. If nothing else, Force Precog works.

... and you think this is a plausible, INTELLIGENT idea? Does 40K somehow have Jedi in its midst and we never noticed? Have you ever even thuoght about the underlying implications behind such a statement??? Does this also mean we assume phasers and warp drive exist in Star Wars, they've just never bothered to research and develop them?

Hell, isn't this one of the reasons why standard Wh40k vs GE always has the caveat "Chaos don't get involved", otherwise, the standard WH40k poster response is Chaos God screw up Jedi/Sith and fuck everyone?

Chaos can screw up a Jedi or A Sith, but not neccesarily in the same means they can a 40k person. The Wapr can distort normal matter quite readily so affecting a normal SW character should be okay. They're just not likely (nigh impossible) to be corrupting them via more indirect means (IE possession when a psyker opens a gateway into the warp to tap it.) Besides, that approach would benefit the Tyranids far more, since you've now basically established that the Force is a Warp Phenomenon. Not only is there risk of weak or untrained force users becoming possessed randomly, they're also subject to the effects of the Shadow in the Warp (which can range from simply interfering with Jedi powers over interstellar distances to driving them insane or outright killing them by proximity, or just having them start talking in Tyranid.) This is supposed to be the *better* explanation?

I'm talking about the Tyrannid traditional engage in military campaign, overwhelm the world and consume the resources within 100 days. According to NecronLord, this has been overriden.

Not in any source I am aware of, unless he's referring to the Narvahl, and that's hardly a standard since it only says the long term stuff applies in some cases, not in general. Indeed, 5th edition mentions them having variable speeds of approach or attack (Behemoth was for example alot faster than the succeeding Hive fleets) and the reduced "speed" if it exsits as being based on caution if anything (IE its a deliberate choice, not that they can't go faster. They still can, for example, match Imperial ships in terms of acceleration.) as for consuming a world or invading it, again speed varies and likely depends on how big the fleet is and how big the world is. Behemoth IIRC, attacked Tyran with thousands of ships and IIRC the details consumed the planet within a month, though Tyran despite being inhabited was somewhat smaller than Earth I think too. And the Narvahl introduces large scale gravitaitonal fuckery to an entire system - nevermind the effects on the inhabitants I'd wonder how that would fuck up hyperdrive travel, now that i bother thinking about it.

PS: the idea that a single source suddenly "overrides" everything else is also retarded. Do you really want to start playing that game with Star Wars, which is far more inconsistent when it comes to this shit? Of course even playing that game and really do assume the Tyranids no longer have FTL, we then replace every mention of "Warp travel" being used as a sort of travel (Which is debatable, since the novel black tide also has Zoanthropes creating warp portals across interdimensional distances) so we have the NArvahl being able to allow ships to arrive minutes from a system, tops, eg "Fight or Flight" as I've noted.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Hey, they got a shield to curve around the Death Star with a single generator, so they could surely do it with a celestial object.

So? without knowing how they did that how does it rebut my point? I'm basing my arguments on simple logic and to an extent science. There's no reason why a force field should arbitrarily "bend" or even "curve" around something like that - it would be like claiming you could have "homing laser beams" (which yes, I know is mentioned in sci fi sometimes but its still pseudoscience.) The best you could get maybe is that they project "through" the object - shields are a volumetric effect and it simply encompasses a given volume which the DS happens to fall within - although that doesn't answer how rthey prevent shields from killing people they encompass, how they still manage to make it form a bubble, etc.)

Even if we assume they CAN devise planetary shield from a single generator and can get it to encompass the planet, that's a limited defense at best. How do you let things through? You need to lower shields to send FTL signals, and unless you're a self sufficient planet (places like coruscant aren't) you need food and other stuff to exist - or what if your planet relies on trade for its livelihood? At the minimum you need multiple shield relays and projectors to simply allow you to lower or raise shields section by section without lowering the entire thing. Or to fire weaposn out of. Moreover, what about light passing through? that's a rather significant flaw since they at least let visible light (and possibly other spectrums depending on need) through and one an enemy could exploit unless shield's can block it - and if they can and do then you get back to the problems I mentioned (vegetation dying off, thermodynamics, etc.) The fact is no matter how you argue it, planetary shielding is not a smart long term solution unless you happen to be residing on a planet already fucked up (like Armageddon)

[PainRack]

Nice job putting words in my mouth. I never said it was an "outlier", I said that it neccesarily didn't represent HIGH END. Han also ran an illegal ship that was using military grade, highly modified (read: unreliable) gear (the Corporate Sector novels in fact make a big point of this, but the fact of the Falcon in the movies is enough to prove that.) I don't suppose you ever considered that there might be tradeoffs associated with such high speed? REduced hyperdrive endurance for example? Reduced capability to fight (Hyperspace travel, while not as energetic as sublight travel, still requires an insane amount of energy - at least for something of the size and performance range of an ISD anyhow. Again alot of it depends on variables.)

And? There is still no reason why Han and co does not represent the normal speeds in the SWU.
As for hyperdrive endurance, we already know from Paradise snare that reduced speed and etc leads to fuel economy. That STILL doesn't argue against SW warships not being able to achieve the speeds Han achieved.

Second: There you go putting words in my mouth again. Did I ever say "without replenishment?" You have this anonying habit of making shit up that I don't neccesarily say. And this is on top of deciding to dodge around answering MY question by asking one of your own - something I consider to be rather dishonest. By the way ARE you going to answer the question, or are you going to pretend it doesn't exist?

WHAT question? You essentially created a fucking false position to hang your argument around. Guess what? I never claimed that the Nids CAN"T conduct hit and run attacks. I put forward the alternate position that any campaign that relies heavily on such hit and run attacks using bio-weapons, will run OUT of resources as the Nids fail to acquire sufficient biomass/energy.
Hence, its still worth it to fortify said worlds.

Last I recall the only values we had on SW grav sensors was the CGT sensors, and those on a starhsip were hundreds of thousands of km in range at best (and they still could be futzed up by nearby planetary bodies.) So they'd need something pretty large and sensitive and probably located away from most of the settled portions of the galaxy to work like that. Of course, we could point out in 5th editon the Vong Narvahl's have sensors tht can apparetly sense via gravity over "FTL" distances too I am also trying not ot laugh at the idea that we are talking about "FTL gravity" as if gravity sensors were really meaningful in any sense.

SW already MUST have sensors that can detect Gravity wells interstellarly, just to make hyperdrive cut off systems work. As for the Vong, the Sernipdal recon run establishes that SWU is able to use such sensors for military purposes, to detect Vong warships in orbit.

and you think this is a plausible, INTELLIGENT idea? Does 40K somehow have Jedi in its midst and we never noticed? Have you ever even thuoght about the underlying implications behind such a statement??? Does this also mean we assume phasers and warp drive exist in Star Wars, they've just never bothered to research and develop them?

Chaos can screw up a Jedi or A Sith, but not neccesarily in the same means they can a 40k person. The Wapr can distort normal matter quite readily so affecting a normal SW character should be okay. They're just not likely (nigh impossible) to be corrupting them via more indirect means (IE possession when a psyker opens a gateway into the warp to tap it.) Besides, that approach would benefit the Tyranids far more, since you've now basically established that the Force is a Warp Phenomenon. Not only is there risk of weak or untrained force users becoming possessed randomly, they're also subject to the effects of the Shadow in the Warp (which can range from simply interfering with Jedi powers over interstellar distances to driving them insane or outright killing them by proximity, or just having them start talking in Tyranid.) This is supposed to be the *better* explanation?

Balls Connor. Did someone change the fucking vs rules debate when I went on a sabbatical?
We assume commonality and a translation of both sides technology/magic works. B5 retain telepathy even if they're in a universe where telepathy is unworkable.
And YES. Shadow in the Warp will interfere with Jedi interstellar messages...... oh wait, the Jedi virtually never send any messages that way.

PS: the idea that a single source suddenly "overrides" everything else is also retarded. Do you really want to start playing that game with Star Wars, which is far more inconsistent when it comes to this shit? Of course even playing that game and really do assume the Tyranids no longer have FTL, we then replace every mention of "Warp travel" being used as a sort of travel (Which is debatable, since the novel black tide also has Zoanthropes creating warp portals across interdimensional distances) so we have the NArvahl being able to allow ships to arrive minutes from a system, tops, eg "Fight or Flight" as I've noted.)

And? If you read the begining of the thread, you note that my response to NL statement was incredubility. As for override everything else, this is WH40k. Their later stuff has a "retcon everything" canon backing behind it.

[Srelex]

Even if we assume they CAN devise planetary shield from a single generator and can get it to encompass the planet, that's a limited defense at best. How do you let things through?

I think the CIS invasion force for Coruscant was able to fly through the shields, although I need to confirm this. It is possible that how easily one can fly through a shield depends on the strength, and considering Sidious's involvement...

You need to lower shields to send FTL signals,

Veers was able to communicate with Vader on Hoth, and although Vader was merely in orbit, that at least shows that a shielded planet can chat with those above, even if not with those across the galaxy. And wasn't Anakin and Obi Wan contacted from shielded Coruscant even when it was under attack?

and unless you're a self sufficient planet (places like coruscant aren't) you need food and other stuff to exist - or what if your planet relies on trade for its livelihood? At the minimum you need multiple shield relays and projectors to simply allow you to lower or raise shields section by section without lowering the entire thing.

That would be logical, but as I doubt they'll have the shields on every single minute I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Moreover, what about light passing through? that's a rather significant flaw since they at least let visible light (and possibly other spectrums depending on need) through and one an enemy could exploit unless shield's can block it - and if they can and do then you get back to the problems I mentioned (vegetation dying off, thermodynamics, etc.) The fact is no matter how you argue it, planetary shielding is not a smart long term solution unless you happen to be residing on a planet already fucked up (like Armageddon)

Er...what? Where did shields blocking light come from?

Anyway, you're assuming people would be keeping their shields up perpetually. If you believe that this is the point I was trying to make earlier, I instead trying to suggest that the Empire could equip as many planets as possible with such shields, and of course that in the event of the attack a sufficient generator could envelope a good portion of a planet at least. If I did seem to suggest that the planets will be sitting there with their shields permenantly on, then that wasn't a suggestion I was trying intentionally to make.

[Eviscerator]

Even if we assume they CAN devise planetary shield from a single generator and can get it to encompass the planet, that's a limited defense at best. How do you let things through?

I think the CIS invasion force for Coruscant was able to fly through the shields, although I need to confirm this. It is possible that how easily one can fly through a shield depends on the strength, and considering Sidious's involvement...

[.

Wait a minute since when do SW Planetery shields let anything through? If such techniques or technology existed in the time of the Clone Wars and considering Sidious = Palpatine Why wasnt his personal SSD equipped with such tech or the crew trained in the technique? You know, so his SSD could fly through the coruscant shield? Similarily if such tech/technique existed then why would the Rebels need to go through so much trouble to bring down the Coruscant shields?

[Srelex]

Wait a minute since when do SW Planetery shields let anything through? If such techniques or technology existed in the time of the Clone Wars and considering Sidious = Palpatine Why wasnt his personal SSD equipped with such tech or the crew trained in the technique? You know, so his SSD could fly through the coruscant shield? Similarily if such tech/technique existed then why would the Rebels need to go through so much trouble to bring down the Coruscant shields?

What I was trying to suggest that the ease of how one can fly through a shield depends on its strength--so that rather than deactivating it outright, one could simply dial it down. However, this is based on a vague recollection, so until I confirm that you can consider this moot for now. After all, flying through shields of certain strength has been displayed quite a few times.

[Eviscerator]

Im out of touch with the NJO and such, but to detail the Coruscant Planetary Shield, it consists of two layers, the outer one of which is deactivated to allow a ship in, and further clearance to transit the inner shield is held on confirmation of authority.

To my knowledge nobody in the NR, GE, or even the Yevethans knew how to fly through shields and frank disbelief was shown when Thrawn faked an weapon that could penetrate shields

Hope your not confusing SW shields with Dune's Holtzman shields...

[Srelex]

Im out of touch with the NJO and such, but to detail the Coruscant Planetary Shield, it consists of two layers, the outer one of which is deactivated to allow a ship in, and further clearance to transit the inner shield is held on confirmation of authority.

To my knowledge nobody in the NR, GE, or even the Yevethans knew how to fly through shields and frank disbelief was shown when Thrawn faked an weapon that could penetrate shields

Hope your not confusing SW shields with Dune's Holtzman shields...

I wasn't saying that attackers could fly through the shields, I'm trying to say that the people operating the shields could let them in by dialling down the power. Although this may well depend on the shield in question, which is why I'm going to do some checking up when I get the chance.

[NecronLord]

During the time of the Eldar Empire, when the warp was not as turbulent Eldar pskyers could induce supernovas, mind fuck armies, and destroy planets with there minds.

You've been reading fanfic.

The reason that current eldar don't do that because that much power is going to have souls devoured by Slanndash in short order. Hell, when the Eldar just had swords and arrows, Eldar could hold off entire armies of Nercons single handily.

Swords personally forged by a smith-god. Chaos demons manage to butcher Imperial armies with swords that have far less impressive pedigree.

[Connor MacLeod]

And? There is still no reason why Han and co does not represent the normal speeds in the SWU.
As for hyperdrive endurance, we already know from Paradise snare that reduced speed and etc leads to fuel economy. That STILL doesn't argue against SW warships not being able to achieve the speeds Han achieved.

Are you trying to claim that the Falcon is a unmodified, civilian freighter? now?

WHAT question? You essentially created a fucking false position to hang your argument around. Guess what? I never claimed that the Nids CAN"T conduct hit and run attacks. I put forward the alternate position that any campaign that relies heavily on such hit and run attacks using bio-weapons, will run OUT of resources as the Nids fail to acquire sufficient biomass/energy. Hence, its still worth it to fortify said worlds.

It's a "false position" to demand you clarify your nebulous responses, and expect an answer rather than another question? You failed to clarify how hit and run bio-warfare attacks are supposd to automatically deprive them of biomass, unless you really ARE thinking that the entire SW galaxy is going to go turtle under planetary shielding and try to outlast the Nids. And that I was proposing the 'Nids would automatically send repeated attacks against active planetary shielding until they ran out of resources.

SW already MUST have sensors that can detect Gravity wells interstellarly, just to make hyperdrive cut off systems work. As for the Vong, the Sernipdal recon run establishes that SWU is able to use such sensors for military purposes, to detect Vong warships in orbit.

1.) you're claiming gravity sensors are FTL. This is going to require proof since this is an EXTREMELY exceptional claim.

2.) what makes you think that if such is neccesary, they're neccesarily the same sorts of sensors used at Sernpidal? Again, evidence is required.

Balls Connor. Did someone change the fucking vs rules debate when I went on a sabbatical?
We assume commonality and a translation of both sides technology/magic works. B5 retain telepathy even if they're in a universe where telepathy is unworkable.

How do you jump from "technology and supernatural powers cross over to the universes involved" to "powers involved must be the same thing?" Are you going to claim that Hyperdrive and warp travel are the same? Or that all forms of hyperdrive are the same because they're called hyperdrive? That's just about the same level of logic as you are proposing.

And YES. Shadow in the Warp will interfere with Jedi interstellar messages...... oh wait, the Jedi virtually never send any messages that way.

I like how you ignored the fact Tyranid's ability to disrupt the warp in their proximity fucks over psyker stuff besides astrotelepathy (nevermind the OTHER logical conclusions to your supposition, IE the danger of force users becoming possesssed just like psykers can, etc.)

And? If you read the begining of the thread, you note that my response to NL statement was incredubility. As for override everything else, this is WH40k. Their later stuff has a "retcon everything" canon backing behind it.

You have proof of this, I assume? Because both the games fluff AND the novels (and likely the comics) have a nice habit of recycling older material when it suits their purposes (modified and unmodified both.)