Mass Effect 2 Gameplay

[adam_grif]

Spoiler

You're "blindly trust Prothean technology" bullshit again. We've been over this. It's hardly blind trust after 4,000 years of smooth operation. They had hundreds, thousands of years to be wary, but complacency ALWAYS sets in. It happens all the time in real life, why does it become unbelievable just because it's in SPACE.

Also, how much do you think that a ten year plan matters to the Reapers? They are tens or hundreds of millions of years old. Ten days or ten years are compatible timespans to them.

Wrong your.
Spoiler

I don't recall saying they blindly trusted the prothean tech before. Wasn't that somebody else who said that ages ago? It doesn't really matter if they trust prothean tech for a good reason or not. They certainly have no reason to believe that it's going to enslave and kill them. Saren basically just has to turn the ship over to the Council fleet and get it to dock on the citadel. As soon as it does, it's mission accomplished. He can just be all "hey guys I just found this in-tact Prothean ship! Check it out!" then fly into the Citadel space giving the IFF squawks as he normally would.

It's not really hard. It's trivially easy. But instead of that, they did things the hard way. This is why they're stupid.

And you're telling me that it's not stupid to do something quickly and safely when the alternative is to take a decade? Wouldn't they want to do it as fast as possible? Even if time didn't matter to them, it's still the more optimal solution.

[adam_grif]

Ghetto Edit

Lack of hindsight is not stupidity.

No, but putting a decade spanning plan into effect when they could have done it much faster and with less chance of anybody standing in your way is, when the only reason you'd do it is for vanity (i.e. making a big entrance).

Spoiler

Ok, lets say they are stupid (which I'm not). So what? Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, my suspension of disbelief is broken! If you require 100% optimal actions from everyone all the time to not discard a work as badly written, then you better start ragging on history books as fucking hack jobs.

Oh come on now. That's not what I'm saying at all. But there's absolutely no compelling reason for this. Their victory is assured as soon as the fleet comes through, that's literally Sovreign's only objective. They're a hyperintelligent machine race. If they're just doing it for stupid petty reasons, then again, "they're stupid".

[open_sketchbook]

Spoiler

You're "blindly trust Prothean technology" bullshit again. We've been over this. It's hardly blind trust after 4,000 years of smooth operation. They had hundreds, thousands of years to be wary, but complacency ALWAYS sets in. It happens all the time in real life, why does it become unbelievable just because it's in SPACE.

Also, how much do you think that a ten year plan matters to the Reapers? They are tens or hundreds of millions of years old. Ten days or ten years are compatible timespans to them.

Wrong your.
Spoiler

I don't recall saying they blindly trusted the prothean tech before. Wasn't that somebody else who said that ages ago? It doesn't really matter if they trust prothean tech for a good reason or not. They certainly have no reason to believe that it's going to enslave and kill them. Saren basically just has to turn the ship over to the Council fleet and get it to dock on the citadel. As soon as it does, it's mission accomplished. He can just be all "hey guys I just found this in-tact Prothean ship! Check it out!" then fly into the Citadel space giving the IFF squawks as he normally would.

It's not really hard. It's trivially easy. But instead of that, they did things the hard way. This is why they're stupid.

And you're telling me that it's not stupid to do something quickly and safely when the alternative is to take a decade? Wouldn't they want to do it as fast as possible? Even if time didn't matter to them, it's still the more optimal solution.

Spoiler

There are plenty of holes with such a plan. For example, what if they didn't let the ship approach? Is there any way of ensuring the Council would get aboard? (typically, when we discover potentially dangerous new technologies, our first act isn't to have our heads of state gallivant around in and around them, and we do it right in our capital city to boot) It's far more likely that Saren would be ordered to surrender the ship so it could be towed to a safe place to be researched. At that point, Soverign is fucked, because if he wants at the Citadel it'd have to be by going through the fleet, so basically we get the events of the end of the first game again, 'cept Sovereign doesn't have a Geth fleet backing him up.

[adam_grif]

Spoiler

But then the research team is indoctrinated and gives it the all clear. This possibility sets their plan back what, a week, two?

It'll get to the citadel one way or another in short order. If it approaches with the research team in an unscheduled fashion, I doubt they'll just instantly start shooting it down unless it opens fire itself. As far as they know it's just a ship - no real reason to think it's going to be the death of them.

[open_sketchbook]

Spoiler

Soverign is not a military organization, nor an emotionless killbot. It's name speaks volumes about how it thinks of itself; as royalty, a dark god beyond mortal comprehension. Do you think it's going to allow mortals to swarm it, prod it, learn it's secrets, play by their rules, even for a second? We are as ants to them. We're hardly even the most technologically advanced species that the Reapers have taken out; the guys 37 million years ago had a railgun that could fire between systems and score a massive canyon across a continent on the way to it's target. Hell, Sovereign probably arrived ahead of schedule once they realized what was up with the Citadel, in order to deal with us before we got advanced enough to be a threat. Compared to everything that has come before, we are positively primitive. Far more than enough to get overconfident.

Besides that, Sovereign's plan also had an additional side perk. By siding with existing synthetics, Sovereign essentially gave himself plausible deniablity; even after the attack most people believe Sovereign is a big Geth superweapon. If your plan went wrong, we'd come away knowing what the Reapers are, and with who knows how much technical data gleamed from prodding at it's innards while it was active. When Sovereign's actual plan went pear-shaped, not only did it die in combat, denying scientists a look at it's active systems (it blew up so big they are still finding pieces of it!) but there is a more attractive alternative to the "Fleet of Doombots in Darkest Space" theory that everyone has latched onto.

[Sephirius]

Spoiler

Soverign is not a military organization, nor an emotionless killbot. It's name speaks volumes about how it thinks of itself; as royalty, a dark god beyond mortal comprehension. Do you think it's going to allow mortals to swarm it, prod it, learn it's secrets, play by their rules, even for a second? We are as ants to them. We're hardly even the most technologically advanced species that the Reapers have taken out; the guys 37 million years ago had a railgun that could fire between systems and score a massive canyon across a continent on the way to it's target. Hell, Sovereign probably arrived ahead of schedule once they realized what was up with the Citadel, in order to deal with us before we got advanced enough to be a threat. Compared to everything that has come before, we are positively primitive. Far more than enough to get overconfident.

Besides that, Sovereign's plan also had an additional side perk. By siding with existing synthetics, Sovereign essentially gave himself plausible deniablity; even after the attack most people believe Sovereign is a big Geth superweapon. If your plan went wrong, we'd come away knowing what the Reapers are, and with who knows how much technical data gleamed from prodding at it's innards while it was active. When Sovereign's actual plan went pear-shaped, not only did it die in combat, denying scientists a look at it's active systems (it blew up so big they are still finding pieces of it!) but there is a more attractive alternative to the "Fleet of Doombots in Darkest Space" theory that everyone has latched onto.

Spoiler

The name Sovereign was created by Saren, while the name the Reaper used to identify itself was Nazara.

[open_sketchbook]

I'm well aware of that. I was speaking more from a symbolism-y point of view.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Spoiler

Building a whole new reaper when they had a 99.99% in-tact, still completely functional reaper lying around somewhere?

Why not just fix that one up a bit?

They knew it was there, they set a fucking trap on it.

Or why not build more than 1 fucking collector ship? Why do they only have one ship?

Why didn't the collector ship join in on the initial attack on the Citadel since it's clearly far more powerful than any conventional alliance or citadel ship?

Spoiler

What? I don't remember any trap on the Reaper instrumented by the Collector's. My interpretation was the Reaper was braindead but indoctrination is an entirely subconscious act, the whole husk horde wasn't planned.

[General Zod]

I don't mean to play mod or anything, but if we're going to be using the SPOILER tag for a dozen posts in a row could we just get the thread title edited to include spoilers? It would be less of a headache than having to click on each tag.

[Stark]

I'm well aware of that. I was speaking more from a symbolism-y point of view.

So its name defines how it sees itself... except that's not its name?

And yeah plots built on everyone but the player being retards are lame... unless your intention is to cook up a plot that fellates the player, without actually requiring the player to actually learn anything.

[Havok]

So yeah... anyway.

I finished it.
Got the Shepard wins ending.
Lost Tali on the escort mission without loyalty gained.
Lost the Englishman on fire team duty with loyalty gained. Thinking it has more to do with giving them missions that didn't suit them more than loyalty.
Used the Justicar (I imagine all the Super Friends riding around in a flying car) for my biotic shields and she tired out at the end. I didn't have all my biotic upgrades.
Banged Kelly the Yeoman, (THREE separate dances made )Captain Kirk style, and got to have a lame ass sleep over with Jack. (WTF BioWare, just go all the way already. I wanna see some tattooed CG pussy. It's not like you didn't render butt hole discoloration in ME1 on the strippers)
And then I told her to 'fuck off' then she told me to fuck off.
Couldn't figure out how to swing Miranda and Samara also, but ther has to be a way.

Gave Cerberus the station, which is ABSOLUTELY the right thing to do, but everyone is all like 'WTF Shepard?!?! The Illusive Man, totally kept us alive and fighting with all his money and resources and completely saved our asses with hisforesight, but NOW he can't be trusted!!!!11!! Shepard you are the retard!'

Also, I totally didn't get Tali's loyalty for doing the right thing, and got the Englishman's loyalty for doing the wrong thing, which is actually kinda cool.

I am playing through ME1 again now. I think I am going to do a comparison thread.

[Agent Fisher]

You know, all the times I've played Mass Effect 1 and 2, I was a good guy, helped everyone, nice as could be. I'm gonna play it again, as a total dick. That video of Shepard being a jerk has inspired me.

[General Zod]

You know, all the times I've played Mass Effect 1 and 2, I was a good guy, helped everyone, nice as could be. I'm gonna play it again, as a total dick. That video of Shepard being a jerk has inspired me.

The morality system is still kind of stupid. You can make what seems to be an ethically correct decision or forget something and it still dings you with Renegade points. Right now my Paragon/Renegade balance is about 95%/5%.

[Vympel]

Couldn't figure out how to swing Miranda and Samara also, but ther has to be a way

I haven't finished the game yet, but the romance seems easy - just keep talking to them, and eventually stuff ... simply happens. I had to turn down Tali except I didn't turn her down hard enough and it came up again and she made me choose between her and Miranda. I chose Miranda (duh!) but the deal hasn't been closed yet. She said she'd visit when things were .... quiet. Right ....

I could've done the same thing with Jack, but I despise her, so I just loaded the game (the renegade version of the foreplay scene is better than the paragon version, from what I've seen)

Tali's loyalty quest I did what she asked - I saw no reason to expose her father given that they don't exile her anyway (as long as you have sufficient paragon/renegade).

[Manus Celer Dei]

Gave Cerberus the station, which is ABSOLUTELY the right thing to do, but everyone is all like 'WTF Shepard?!?! The Illusive Man, totally kept us alive and fighting with all his money and resources and completely saved our asses with hisforesight, but NOW he can't be trusted!!!!11!! Shepard you are the retard!'

What, really? After I gave him the station the rest of the team all basically said "Risky choice but I trust your judgement". I did everyone's loyalty quests and managed to not get anyone killed though, maybe they have another set of dialogues if you don't?

I'm really tempted for my second playthrough to try and get as many people killed in the suicide mission as possible.

[neoolong]

To be fair, you still can't trust The Illusive Man. Cereberus is a bunch of ruthless sons of bitches, and while you can trust that they won't stab you in the back just because, they'd probably have no real issue in sacrificing you to further their own goals.

That said, the station is still in existance, but I made it clear that I won't take no shit from former President Bartlett.

[Havok]

Couldn't figure out how to swing Miranda and Samara also, but ther has to be a way

I haven't finished the game yet, but the romance seems easy - just keep talking to them, and eventually stuff ... simply happens. I had to turn down Tali except I didn't turn her down hard enough and it came up again and she made me choose between her and Miranda. I chose Miranda (duh!) but the deal hasn't been closed yet. She said she'd visit when things were .... quiet. Right ....

I could've done the same thing with Jack, but I despise her, so I just loaded the game (the renegade version of the foreplay scene is better than the paragon version, from what I've seen)

Tali's loyalty quest I did what she asked - I saw no reason to expose her father given that they don't exile her anyway (as long as you have sufficient paragon/renegade).

Oh I'm not saying it is hard, I'm saying that I haven't figured out hall to bang them all, but I will.

[adam_grif]

Tali's loyalty quest I did what she asked - I saw no reason to expose her father given that they don't exile her anyway (as long as you have sufficient paragon/renegade).

See, I had 60% renegade and 25% Paragon at that stage on my second playthrough, plus a 70% negotiate bonus from my class. And It wasn't enough.

It annoys me that paragon/renegade doesn't transfer over playthroughs. Even if they just gave you a bonus to the points you got next playthrough? It's really hard for me to get her not-exiled on the flotilla. I was being more jerkish than usual in that playthrough specifically because I was aware that it was coming up soon and it wasn't enough.

It really shits me off that the game is punishing me for being balanced and not totally polarized as satan-hitler or jesus-ghandi.

Oh I'm not saying it is hard, I'm saying that I haven't figured out hall to bang them all, but I will.

I'm pretty sure that you can't bang both Miranda and SuZe. Not 100% sure, but I think they're mutually exclusive.

[Vympel]

See, I had 60% renegade and 25% Paragon at that stage on my second playthrough, plus a 70% negotiate bonus from my class. And It wasn't enough.

That's weird. I wonder, does your origin (i.e. mine was Earthborn/Ruthless, for both my Paragon and Renegade characters) still affect your starting Paragon/Renegade scores? Because if so, that may go towards explaining why all throughout my time playing ME2, not once has a renegade dialog option not been availalbe to me.

That said, from 25% paragon I reckon you've been taking way more Paragon decisions than I did - they're hard not to take sometimes, even in a Renegade game like I'm playing (in fact, the lack of purity disturbs me. I'm going to go full on renegade with this character** after I import and play my lvl 60 paragon).

It really shits me off that the game is punishing me for being balanced and not totally polarized as satan-hitler or jesus-ghandi.

Yeah that blows. Seriously though, have you tested out some of the renegade dialog you didn't take? Often Shepard is not being a jerkass, he just hasn't got time for bullshit.

** You can replay the game with the charater you finished the game with as in ME1, right?

Also, I regret wasting 50,000 platinum on the medibay upgrade. I like my awesome glowing eyes.

[Pulp Hero]

I think a game like ME could easily reward a balanced play style by making players with high renegade/paragon scores more notorious in-universe ("Oh, so you're the guy that threatened my brother!" ), while balanced players can slip through some areas with less hassle. Or maybe not be able to recruit certain party NPCs and/or lose them if your score goes too far (For example if you play full paragon Garrus leaves because you are being too light on criminal; if you play full renegade, Garrus leaves because you are acting too immoral.)

Of course Shepard is supposed to be on a stealth mission, but he can still traipse around the Citidel and do canned advertisements for stores in ME2, but that is a whole separate issue with the game.

[adam_grif]

Or they can just make Intimidate / Charm independent of Renegade / Paragon scores like it was in the first game. You could invest points into it. I'd max them out generally speaking, even though that's not optimal to do. I liked having the choice to do one or the other.

You know. Makes sense.

[adam_grif]

Yeah that blows. Seriously though, have you tested out some of the renegade dialog you didn't take? Often Shepard is not being a jerkass, he just hasn't got time for bullshit.

** You can replay the game with the charater you finished the game with as in ME1, right?

Also, I regret wasting 50,000 platinum on the medibay upgrade. I like my awesome glowing eyes.

The whole point of my second playthrough was that it was even less balanced than my first one was. My first playthrough was a 60 Renegade / 40 Paragon split, and so in my second playhthrough I decided to be more renegade unless it really was going to be a decision I couldn't abide by. It still wasn't enough though. Not for the rousing renegade speech to be given to the trial, nor for maintaining both Legion and Tali loyalty.

Made me angry. I probably would have had enough if I'd killed the heretics instead of virusing them, but the pragmatic in me decided it was the better choice. It was like +24 paragon :S

And yes, you can do a New Game + using the character you imported from ME1 and already used in ME2. That's what I did for my second playthrough.

[SylasGaunt]

Huh, I didn't have any problems getting renegade options despite playing my 2nd playthrough shep as basically 'Nice to everyone on the team, anyone not on the team can go die in a fire'.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

So... I started my NG+ on Insanity...

Fucking headache... Take every flaw with the combat, and ratchet up it's annoyance to 11.

-You have about 1 second of health in any firefight. (Playing an adept... but still.)

-You do less than half the damage as on normal.

-Throw/Pull seem even more useless than on normal. [EG: Any enemy you actually want to tie up for a few seconds is immune for no good reason. Like the shotgun turians on the "Archangel" recruitment mission's boss fight...]

-The enemy can seemingly shoot through the tiniest hole in cover, accurately,unless you're pressed up against it. Which is where the assorted Shotgunners and Varren enemies come in...

-The lack of any real enemy reaction to fire, and the fact that the shotgunners, flamethrowers, and sometimes general mooks know that they can just advance relentlessly, and you'll be forced to fall back or die where you were... As you'll not be able to kill them before they cross engagement range at a mild stroll.

-The bad teammate AI comes into full bloom here... Often doing it's best Rambo impression, unless you tell it where to go for cover every time... And the squad commands are actually worse, as you have to target the ground for them to understand you mean "Move here".



I must have repeated the last fight of that mission a dozen times before the stars aligned and I didn't get reamed by that unpull/throwable shotty turian or assorted other "F you, signed The Devs" deaths... Which isn't even mentioning the terrible firefight for the last shutter in that mission...

I'm somewhat loathe to continue this play-through... I can handle not being some epic god. I beat both Gears and every Halo (sans ODST) on their hardest difficulty... Hell, my favorite games of the last few years are Demon's Souls and Monster Hunter Freedom Unite...
But this is borderline broken game mechanics that make you wonder if they even play tested this difficulty.

[Vympel]

The whole point of my second playthrough was that it was even less balanced than my first one was. My first playthrough was a 60 Renegade / 40 Paragon split, and so in my second playhthrough I decided to be more renegade unless it really was going to be a decision I couldn't abide by. It still wasn't enough though. Not for the rousing renegade speech to be given to the trial, nor for maintaining both Legion and Tali loyalty.

Made me angry. I probably would have had enough if I'd killed the heretics instead of virusing them, but the pragmatic in me decided it was the better choice. It was like +24 paragon :S

And yes, you can do a New Game + using the character you imported from ME1 and already used in ME2. That's what I did for my second playthrough.

LOL - as if getting pwn3d by karma, I just got fucked, with insufficient Renegade to prevent Morinth from influencing me. The result of this was Samara coming in just in time, and me stopping Morinth by default. I assume if I had sufficient Renegade to resist her, I could've chosen her, which I planned on doing.

That's what I get for being a softie with Tali when she was crying over her dad, saving Thane's on with a Paragon interrupt, and all that other wussy shit I did in this playthrough. Goddammit. Full renegade on my playthrough after next (i.e. after my lvl 60 paragon import).

Of course Shepard is supposed to be on a stealth mission, but he can still traipse around the Citidel and do canned advertisements for stores in ME2, but that is a whole separate issue with the game.

Hmm? Nothing I've seen in the game ever tends towards your mission being secret.