Avatar review thread

[Shroom Man 777]

I wouldn't be surprised with some conglomerate CEO guy decides its more economical to neutron bomb the planet from orbit and harvest the minerals after the fallout has cooled down.

Or the RDA loses a whole crapload of money after the delayed shipment, and the Space American government investigates the incident and finds the RDA culpable for doing all sorts of atrocities, and the RDA ends up Enron-ing and the conglomerate CEO guy goes bankrupt and decides to slit his throat.

Then the Space EPA will have all sorts of laws for RDA-like corporations and not only will the corporations have to reduce their carbon emissions to Space Californian state standards (!!!!) but they'll also be no longer be able to do genocide!

Goddamn it, the Space American government might even mandate the RDA-like corporations to, like, have recycling or have affirmative action and employ groups of racial minorities to meet their quota!

Sure they're pushed out now but they'll probably come back, Pandora has one of two options die or share. The movie I don't think does a good job of following down what the consequences of this would be, Pandora is a threat, an alien species with terrifying advanced biomechanical interfacing skills with their world, I could see it where if they were willing Humanity could gain oodles of knowledge but if the movie is right in its implication that they're banishing humans from the world and think they can keep it that way well that's just stupid. Humans "never" just give up on markets to exploit.

Pandora as a threat? Jesus Christ, that's ridiculous. At least the Jews were stealing everyone's gold and the Slavs and Bolsheviks had a giant Soviet Union.

They didn't banish humans from the world, mangoes. They had the scientists, and those guys who used the Avatars, stay.

But why should they have let the RDA corporate assholes and military mercenary morons stay? Would you let the Gestapo and SS men who operated the gas chambers and execution squads stay, after you've beaten the fucking Natzies off your planet? Hell no.

If the movie took place in reality then Pandora's days are numbers if we're genocidal bastards then its expected that we'll come back waste their whole moon and take what we need after its all done.

Hurr, genocide realistic grimdark! If Schindler's List took place in reality, then those Jews days are numbered if we're genocidal bastards then it's expected that we'll come back and put their whole moon in the gas chambers and take what we need after its all done!

What they SHOULD have done is kept the humans on the base and conducted negotiations as equals "it is our land, our world, our resources if you want them then you have to do it on OUR terms" the Human leaders would've grumbled but its better then nothing and lets them continue using the current infrastructure and while more expensive maintains the flow of minerals, as it is the implication is that the Pandorans will cut off all communications and all trade, this to the human eyes make them varelse.

What they SHOULD have done is kept the scientists and none-asshole humans on the base and EVICTED the RDA assholes and military mercenaries because they are assholes who just committed war crimes. Oh wait, that IS what they did. "You destroyed our home and killed our people, GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR PLANET". They can negotiate with people who HAVEN'T tried to kill them, who HAVEN'T destroyed their homes, who HAVEN'T tried to murder you and your family.

Oh wait. Okay. So if corporate assholes destroyed your home and killed your parents and friends and family, but you ended up kicking those assholes' asses, you'd still want to conduct negotiations as equals (after the corporate assholes destroyed your homes and killed your parents and friends and families)?

Fuck it. Those RDA assholes were lucky that they didn't have the Bear Jew killfuck them with a baseball bad, or had HUGO STIGLITZ tell them to say auf wiedersen to their Nazi balls.


The Na'vi can negotiate with the EPA or Greenpeace.

[PeZook]

I wouldn't be surprised with some conglomerate CEO guy decides its more economical to neutron bomb the planet from orbit and harvest the minerals after the fallout has cooled down.

Where are they going to get the neutron bombs? It's not like a corporation can just buy WMDs.

More to the point, how are they going to avoid getting life sentences for mass murder after an epic trial of the century? The government explicitly forbid the RDA from genociding the natives.

Sure they're pushed out now but they'll probably come back, Pandora has one of two options die or share.

Depending on the exact political consequences, the Na'Vi very well may have several centuries of freedom before they ever need to worry about dealing with humans again.

The movie I don't think does a good job of following down what the consequences of this would be, Pandora is a threat, an alien species with terrifying advanced biomechanical interfacing skills with their world, I could see it where if they were willing

Pandora is a threat to Earth now? I must've missed the Na'Vi interstellar invasion battlefleets and nuclear weapon factories somewhere...

Humanity could gain oodles of knowledge but if the movie is right in its implication that they're banishing humans from the world and think they can keep it that way well that's just stupid. Humans "never" just give up on markets to exploit.

They're banishing the RDA. Some scientists were allowed the stay, and presumably some of those will choose to return on the next ship.

If the movie took place in reality then Pandora's days are numbers if we're genocidal bastards then its expected that we'll come back waste their whole moon and take what we need after its all done.

"We" were not portrayed as genocidal bastards. Not even all RDA personnell felt good about Quaritch's actions, and the government explicitly tied the company's hands when it came to dealing with the natives. Expect a massive shitstorm when the feds find out what happened.

What they SHOULD have done is kept the humans on the base and conducted negotiations as equals "it is our land, our world, our resources if you want them then you have to do it on OUR terms" the Human leaders would've grumbled but its better then nothing and lets them continue using the current infrastructure and while more expensive maintains the flow of minerals, as it is the implication is that the Pandorans will cut off all communications and all trade, this to the human eyes make them varelse.

The Na'Vi would never agree to that. They had decades of dealings with humanity, and they didn't trust them a tiny bit: jake had no chance to convince the natives to let the humans stay and continue mining their world.

And we all know that the spice must slow.

Except the movie doesn't mention at all that unobtainium is as important to humanity as spice was in Dune.

[Blayne]

The world isn't fair and history shows that Humans either by accident or design usually never give up on getting new markets one way or another, so yes kick off the marines and culpable personnel I agree with that BUT keep those behind who have the authority to conduct negotiations, but lacking any info on the background of the setting of "what happens after" things are looking grim, if the government was careless enough to not immediately mandate the Navi as a protected species and keep government oversight on world then I suspect that its corporate people who run things not legislature.

So far we have no idea if the Navi are willing to resume with negotiations or trade of any level or scope, the "go back to their dying world" line at the end implies to me that they are going the embargo them route.

If they are willing to renew negotiations then things will probably after a few bumps be fine, but if they aren't then things are not going to look good for them you don't have a miracle rock worth millions of dollars an ounce in high demand and not go to any length to retrieve it.

Then again I always root for the Imperial Guard in War40k so I probably have a biased opinion on the human position in the universe in scifi.

[PeZook]

The difference is, of course, that the Imperial Guard are defending the Imperium from, you know, actual threats, many of which will horribly mutilate, enslave and/or eat every human they will get their hands on. Humans of 40K aren't exactly in a position of unchallenged power over most aliens.

[Blayne]

Except the movie doesn't mention at all that unobtainium is as important to humanity as spice was in Dune.

Actually it does, its mentioned In The Manual that the rock is required for practical space travel and to maintain the Maglav trainnetwork on Earth and since Spice is used for space travel in Dune then yes I think we can conclude its worth is about the same as best as we can reconcile two different settings together.

They're banishing the RDA. Some scientists were allowed the stay, and presumably some of those will choose to return on the next ship.

Do we have a confirmed Word of God that this is the case and that more environmentally friendly mining operations will continue or the negotations for them?

The government explicitly forbid the RDA from genociding the natives.

Ever read the Taipan novels by James Clavel? The situations are sounding eerily similar between the historical Opium Wars (where I point out the Gov't had forbid the sale of Opium to the Chinese guess how that went) and the Pandoran Conflict.

Depending on the exact political consequences, the Na'Vi very well may have several centuries of freedom before they ever need to worry about dealing with humans again.

Travel is only 6 years to and fro on average from what I've read.

Pandora is a threat to Earth now? I must've missed the Na'Vi interstellar invasion battlefleets and nuclear weapon factories somewhere...

Didn't stop Starways Congress from thinking the Pequinnos as a threat in the Enderverse which goes the distance to exploring how Humans would view and interact with Aliens, perception is whats important. The director views them as "biological more advance then humans" so its not stretch that Humans being the bastards we are could spin them as whatever we want them to be.

"We" were not portrayed as genocidal bastards. Not even all RDA personnell felt good about Quaritch's actions, and the government explicitly tied the company's hands when it came to dealing with the natives. Expect a massive shitstorm when the feds find out what happened.

We can hope but politics is a tricky thing and we have no idea how narrow the political divide is or how mainstream politics is at this point or what position the ultraright are in or how the existance of aliens have shaped Human perception or politics, that the natives of this moon trashed a modern human force and may very well be denying Humanity is current lifeblood could very well radically shift politics to a more hawkish policy and outlook.

The Na'Vi would never agree to that. They had decades of dealings with humanity, and they didn't trust them a tiny bit: jake had no chance to convince the natives to let the humans stay and continue mining their world.

The Navi would have forbid them from mining under that tree, hence the "under our terms" bit where they could are forced to mine in more remote areas (or maybe in rival tribes lands) or develop non intrusive mining methods so that they COULD mine under sacred sites if it can be demonstrated that it won't harm the sites in question.

However if ALL of this is refused point blank with no appeal then I think we will see a political shift followed by full scale war ala the Opium Wars.

Of course all of this is very subjective and is sourced from realist view of history and a realism paradigm so take it as you will.

The difference is, of course, that the Imperial Guard are defending the Imperium from, you know, actual threats, many of which will horribly mutilate, enslave and/or eat every human they will get their hands on. Humans of 40K aren't exactly in a position of unchallenged power over most aliens.

I'm saying that reading about them has "spilt over" so to speak a paradigm where I look at situations in scifi in a more Pro Human lens. Humans may not be dealing with Tyrannids but between them (Navi) and Humans I will decide to support Earth and Humanity every step of the way right or wrong (while making every effort to support the "right" decision).

[Shroom Man 777]

Pandora is a threat to Earth now? I must've missed the Na'Vi interstellar invasion battlefleets and nuclear weapon factories somewhere...

Judging by the way Jake Sully fell in with the Blue Chick and had secksy time with her, I say that the Na'vi can be construed as not only a threat to ideological purity, but also as a threat to racial purity as well - a grave danger from the untermensch to sap and impurify the superior genes of the master race! Also, Avatar has become the biggest blockbuster ever, so it is even more dangerous than the Zionists who control Hollywood as well!

Actually it does, its mentioned In The Manual that the rock is required for practical space travel and to maintain the Maglav trainnetwork on Earth and since Spice is used for space travel in Dune then yes I think we can conclude its worth is about the same as best as we can reconcile two different settings together.

Maglevs and space travel are not crucial to the survival of the human race.

Do we have a confirmed Word of God that this is the case and that more environmentally friendly mining operations will continue or the negotations for them?

Eh, wait for the sequel. But at least they've still got humans on Pandora, which will negate claims of the Na'vi not sharing their land with people - because they're still sharing it with the scientists. The scientists can still speak on the Na'vi's behalf too.

Ever read the Taipan novels by James Clavel? The situations are sounding eerily similar between the historical Opium Wars (where I point out the Gov't had forbid the sale of Opium to the Chinese guess how that went) and the Pandoran Conflict.

Well, with the RDA half-assedly trying to avoid a conflict so they won't "look bad" and the "oh shit" look of Selfridge once they blew up Home Tree, we can infer that there are still significant parties on Earth who do not condone genocide or other atrocious acts.

Didn't stop Starways Congress from thinking the Pequinnos as a threat in the Enderverse which goes the distance to exploring how Humans would view and interact with Aliens, perception is whats important. The director views them as "biological more advance then humans" so its not stretch that Humans being the bastards we are could spin them as whatever we want them to be.

Didn't stop the Nazis from thinking the Jews as a threat to Germany, which goes the distances to exploring how Humans view and interact with Israelites, perception is whats important.

For all we know, with the scientists on Pandora and other sympathizers, the RDA would end up becoming very unpopular just like the Vietnam War and we'll have pot-smoking hippies spitting at the face of Quarritch when he gets back to Earth. Oh wait, he's dead.

We can hope but politics is a tricky thing and we have no idea how narrow the political divide is or how mainstream politics is at this point or what position the ultraright are in or how the existance of aliens have shaped Human perception or politics, that the natives of this moon trashed a modern human force and may very well be denying Humanity is current lifeblood could very well radically shift politics to a more hawkish policy and outlook.

Or it could end up being shown in the other light, with depictions of the asshole human mercenaries trashing and raping a wonderful alien planet and destroying all sorts of magnificent extraterrestrial life forms. Then we can end up with Space Greenpeace attacking RDA whaling ships to stop them from harpooning Pandora and space dolphins.

I'm saying that reading about them has "spilt over" so to speak a paradigm where I look at situations in scifi in a more Pro Human lens. Humans may not be dealing with Tyrannids but between them (Navi) and Humans I will decide to support Earth and Humanity every step of the way right or wrong (while making every effort to support the "right" decision).

I also support Germany every step of the way right or wrong. Deutschland Uber Alles!

[PeZook]

Actually it does, its mentioned In The Manual that the rock is required for practical space travel and to maintain the Maglav trainnetwork on Earth and since Spice is used for space travel in Dune then yes I think we can conclude its worth is about the same as best as we can reconcile two different settings together.

I'm sorry, but that's nowhere near the Dune situation. Earth can live without fancy maglev trains, and the only reason we needed practical interstellar travel was to go to Pandora and mine unobtainium so that we could have practical interstellar travel. Humanity can live without that, too.

Do we have a confirmed Word of God that this is the case and that more environmentally friendly mining operations will continue or the negotations for them?

Uh...the ending of the film doesn't count? You know, with "a select few were allowed to stay"?

Why do "environmentally friendly mining operations" have to continue in order for the Na'Vi not to be genocided, anyway?

Ever read the Taipan novels by James Clavel? The situations are sounding eerily similar between the historical Opium Wars (where I point out the Gov't had forbid the sale of Opium to the Chinese guess how that went) and the Pandoran Conflict.

No, because:

A) The XIXth century was a very different time, and attitudes of contemporary governments were far more barbaric than today.

B) China was much closer to Britain than Alpha freakin' Centauri

Travel is only 6 years to and fro on average from what I've read.

Yes, but I was talking about Earth sorting out the mess and deciding what to do next. If they decide to just dump the RDA and figure out synthetic alternatives to unobtainium, the Na'Vi may be left alone: hence the "depending on the exact political situation" comment.

Didn't stop Starways Congress from thinking the Pequinnos as a threat in the Enderverse which goes the distance to exploring how Humans would view and interact with Aliens, perception is whats important. The director views them as "biological more advance then humans" so its not stretch that Humans being the bastards we are could spin them as whatever we want them to be.

I haven't read that particular book, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

We can hope but politics is a tricky thing and we have no idea how narrow the political divide is or how mainstream politics is at this point or what position the ultraright are in or how the existance of aliens have shaped Human perception or politics, that the natives of this moon trashed a modern human force and may very well be denying Humanity is current lifeblood could very well radically shift politics to a more hawkish policy and outlook.

How exactly do people go from "important for trains" = "lifeblood of humanity"? Why would the US government even bother with demonizing propaganda against primitive aliens that are years away by starship? Come on!

The Navi would have forbid them from mining under that tree, hence the "under our terms" bit where they could are forced to mine in more remote areas (or maybe in rival tribes lands) or develop non intrusive mining methods so that they COULD mine under sacred sites if it can be demonstrated that it won't harm the sites in question.

There's also the slight problem of their goddess and maker of all creation apparently also having a problem with the humans mining their planet. And why should the Na'Vi trust that humans wouldn't get violent again after making the deal, as soon as they are slightly inconvenienced? There's nothing stopping them from doing so after they get their mining gear and production facilities back.

However if ALL of this is refused point blank with no appeal then I think we will see a political shift followed by full scale war ala the Opium Wars.

Why? Because a corporation got themselves fucked up? Because maglev trains will be unfeasible for some time?

I'm saying that reading about them has "spilt over" so to speak a paradigm where I look at situations in scifi in a more Pro Human lens. Humans may not be dealing with Tyrannids but between them (Navi) and Humans I will decide to support Earth and Humanity every step of the way right or wrong (while making every effort to support the "right" decision).

First of all, the RDA is an American company, so at best you're supporting America and Americans, rather than Earth and Humanity. Second of all, what does this even mean? You will support humans every step of the way, right or wrong, while making every effort to support the right way?

What?

[Shroom Man 777]

Why do people want to argue that humanity's going to act like a bunch of imperialistic colonializing dickwads (at best) or fucking Nazis (at worst) anyway? Because its grimdrakstrak and is realistic? Because it appeals to their penile needs for mass death and genocide? Because, like that asshole some pages ago, talking about that and getting people and women shocked at your amoral callousness and whatnot makes you feel like a Big Mang? Hah.

[Blayne]

I also support Germany every step of the way right or wrong. Deutschland Uber Alles!

First of all, the RDA is an American company, so at best you're supporting America and Americans, rather than Earth and Humanity. Second of all, what does this even mean? You will support humans every step of the way, right or wrong, while making every effort to support the right way?

What?

I present to you Willhelm Canaris.

I'm sorry, but that's nowhere near the Dune situation. Earth can live without fancy maglev trains, and the only reason we needed practical interstellar travel was to go to Pandora and mine unobtainium so that we could have practical interstellar travel. Humanity can live without that, too.

At odds with the source material stating that Earth is overpopulated and is on the economic bursting point, the shiny rocks are the only thing keeping the economy sustainable.

A Malhusian collapse could cause war and the breakdown of society.

Uh...the ending of the film doesn't count? You know, with "a select few were allowed to stay"?

Why do "environmentally friendly mining operations" have to continue in order for the Na'Vi not to be genocided, anyway?

A select few who were basically synthesizers at best and traitors at worst, once again we have no idea what human society is like or how "cynical" the setting is or how close to Starship troopers it is, a half dozen allowed to stay doesn't equal to them haing the authority to be given the ability to conduct negotiations.

As to the second point think of it more in terms of being mugged, let us mine and we won't kill all of you, as a compromise so this doesn't happen again we'll do it your way as we can't live there and don't plan to colonize there we just want the rocks.

No, because:

A) The XIXth century was a very different time, and attitudes of contemporary governments were far more barbaric than today.

B) China was much closer to Britain than Alpha freakin' Centauri

A) Political Science holds a view point (realists) that this isn't the case that since the Treaty of Westphalia we've acted more or less the same way and continue to act the same way until deterred not to act the same way.

B) In absolute terms yes not in relative terms, travel between Britain and Hong Kong them might as well have been Alpha Centauri with sailing ships. It was to my mind a 6 month one way trip in quarters much nastier, in Avatar at least its cryo sleep for maybe 2 days.

I haven't read that particular book, so I have no idea what you're talking about.

A shame as Orson Scott Card's Enderverse novels are possibly THE science fiction works of my generation.

How exactly do people go from "important for trains" = "lifeblood of humanity"? Why would the US government even bother with demonizing propaganda against primitive aliens that are years away by starship? Come on!

Why would they demonize the native americans or the Chinese who were "weeks away by horse". I answered the maglav bit above.

There's also the slight problem of their goddess and maker of all creation apparently also having a problem with the humans mining their planet. And why should the Na'Vi trust that humans wouldn't get violent again after making the deal, as soon as they are slightly inconvenienced? There's nothing stopping them from doing so after they get their mining gear and production facilities back.

Whats stopping the British from getting violent again with the Chinese? Or the Americans now that the trade gap is screwing them? Trade on equal terms.

Why? Because a corporation got themselves fucked up? Because maglev trains will be unfeasible for some time?

You don't have a shiny rock worth millions of dollars per gram and not something nasty happen politically. It is heavily implied that not getting this work could lead to political and social collapse.

[Shroom Man 777]

It was heavily implied by Selfridge that the company would not profit without the rock. He did not imply any grand geopoliticosocioeconophysiolopsychological implications.

EDIT:

However, the movie DID imply that Selfridge was reluctant to engage in combat against the natives and preferred a diplomatic solution because shooting the Na'vi would "look bad". So, yes, they DO have qualms with violence and no, future humanity is not made out of the colonial British Nazi assholes who you love very much.

[Blayne]

Why do people want to argue that humanity's going to act like a bunch of imperialistic colonializing dickwads (at best) or fucking Nazis (at worst) anyway? Because its grimdrakstrak and is realistic? Because it appeals to their penile needs for mass death and genocide? Because, like that asshole some pages ago, talking about that and getting people and women shocked at your amoral callousness and whatnot makes you feel like a Big Mang? Hah.

Aside from the inaccurate appeal to Godwin's Law its because we still do it to each other and have been doing it to "different" people for a long time that it is naive to think that we'll suddenly grow a collective conscience and stop, which is why I highly recommend the Ender Quartet as it explores this concept very indepth, Xenocide happens first because the first aliens encountered were out to attack Humanity and had the means to do it, then later the protagonists have to go to phenomenal efforts to prevent a second (and third as it turns out) Xenocide even though Humanity throughout the books is presented as normal and not particularly aggressive just bureaucratic.

They go to great lengths to present the various different arguments and view points between different characters convincingly and everyone is fully aware of their actions and choices and the author respectfully has done the intellectual legwork to know what actions lead to what consequences.

James Cameron doesn't appear to have thought this out very far.

[Shroom Man 777]

Because thinking it very far will invariably and inevitably always lead to genocide? Why? Because shitty assholes in the past, and shitty assholes in other science fiction books, do it all the time? Oh, James Cameron didn't think it through very far because he had the weak widdle good guys win and not let the genocidal warmongers murder them in their sleep - boo-fucking-hoo. Oh, he must have continued the movie further and had it end with either humans raining death on the Na'vi or had the humans end up ravaging the environment as equals, or else it SUCKSUCKSUCKS!

Besides, Cameron's making a sequel.

Again, man, I hope they make a movie where America invades the South Pole after oil is discovered there, and Micheal Moore organizes a resistance made out of Penguins and after they thoroughly slaughter America's warmachines (it will be their Vietshroom), Micheal Moore and the Emperor Penguin end up beating General Pretaeus in a knife fight on top of a glacier and feed him to an Antarctic ice hippo or something. Then without the Antarctic Oil America cannot power its maglevs or spaceships and their dying planet dies! Oh no! Micheal Moore didn't think it through he must've portrayed the Emperor Penguins dealing with America as equals or America genociding the Penguins.

[Blayne]

It was heavily implied by Selfridge that the company would not profit without the rock. He did not imply any grand geopoliticosocioeconophysiolopsychological implications.

EDIT:

However, the movie DID imply that Selfridge was reluctant to engage in combat against the natives and preferred a diplomatic solution because shooting the Na'vi would "look bad". So, yes, they DO have qualms with violence and no, future humanity is not made out of the colonial British Nazi assholes who you love very much.

Erm no, please check the background material.

Earth in-universe. All of the national parks have been destroyed, the Earth (minus the oceans) has become a city, and the only common food source left is spirulina. Oh, and its mentioned that the breathing packs that the humans have to use to survive on Pandora have started being used on Earth.

Please stop calling me a Nazi, it doesn't get us anywhere.

Next while reading more of the background material does show that the Humans of Earth aren't bastards we however don't know how the politics could shift if things start going downhill and if the Navi stubburnely refuse to negotiate.

On the other hand if the Humans arent generally bastards and Jake knows this then negotiations should still be possible if the "Feds" can show remorse and regret.

Now it is fairly obvious this is speculation but I think it IS POSSIBLE that politics could shift and a more hawkish approach taken if the Navi refuse all offers good intentioned or otherwise.

But we will have to wait for the sequals to find out what happens from here, but I feel not enough has been done to explore the ramifications of this film would have and hope this is done in a sequal.

[Blayne]

Again, man, I hope they make a movie where America invades the South Pole after oil is discovered there, and Micheal Moore organizes a resistance made out of Penguins and after they thoroughly slaughter America's warmachines (it will be their Vietshroom), Micheal Moore and the Emperor Penguin end up beating General Pretaeus in a knife fight on top of a glacier and feed him to an Antarctic ice hippo or something. Then without the Antarctic Oil America cannot power its maglevs or spaceships and their dying planet dies! Oh no! Micheal Moore didn't think it through he must've portrayed the Emperor Penguins dealing with America as equals or America genociding the Penguins.

Are you on drugs? Moore hates Peguins.

[Shroom Man 777]

That's ridiculous. If Earth is just one bigass city, then what was that "mean bush" in Venezuela that Quarritch and Jake were talking about? Was it some overgrown backyard garden in the world-city of Avatar Earth? Where the hell is that from, anyway?

But we will have to wait for the sequals to find out what happens from here, but I feel not enough has been done to explore the ramifications of this film would have and hope this is done in a sequal.

Geeze, man. The story's just about some Space Pochahontas Natives Beat Assholes thing - it's a simplistic fairy tale-esque but nicely-done rendition of a classic storyline. I mean, man, that's like thinking about the ramifications of A New Hope and going on about how the Imperial fleet should've BDZed the Rebels the second after the Death Star exploderized or whatever after Imperial politics shifted to "wipe them out all of them" and whatever. But I hope this is done in ANH's sequel.

[PeZook]

I present to you Willhelm Canaris.

The man who sabotaged the Abwehr to the point that the entire German spy network in Britain ended up working as double agents?

That's not "supporting his country right or wrong". Your statement is logically impossible, because you can't, by definition, support your chosen tribe when they do something ethically wrong while simultaneously trying to support the ethically right solution.

At odds with the source material stating that Earth is overpopulated and is on the economic bursting point, the shiny rocks are the only thing keeping the economy sustainable.

A Malhusian collapse could cause war and the breakdown of society.

Then why didn't Selfridge mention this tiny little irrelevant point to Grace when he spoke about importance of unobtainium? Grace didn't give a fuck about the Company's profits, so using this argument on her was completely pointless, especially if he had this whooper in reserve: If a massive economic collapse was imminent without unobtainium, it would've been fucking mentioned in the movie once or twice, dontcha think?

A select few who were basically synthesizers at best and traitors at worst, once again we have no idea what human society is like or how "cynical" the setting is or how close to Starship troopers it is, a half dozen allowed to stay doesn't equal to them haing the authority to be given the ability to conduct negotiations.

At most they were guilty of a breach of contract with their parent corporation, and it's not certain they'd be convicted, because they opposed the corporation's illegal actions.

As to the second point think of it more in terms of being mugged, let us mine and we won't kill all of you, as a compromise so this doesn't happen again we'll do it your way as we can't live there and don't plan to colonize there we just want the rocks.

Except if the mugger gets arrested by the police and thrown in jail in the meantime.

A) Political Science holds a view point (realists) that this isn't the case that since the Treaty of Westphalia we've acted more or less the same way and continue to act the same way until deterred not to act the same way.

Yeah, so? It talks about actions of governments, not private corporations. When was the last time a war was started because DeBeers got in legal trouble with their diamond mining operations?

B) In absolute terms yes not in relative terms, travel between Britain and Hong Kong them might as well have been Alpha Centauri with sailing ships. It was to my mind a 6 month one way trip in quarters much nastier, in Avatar at least its cryo sleep for maybe 2 days.

What? You're comparing a six month travel time by ship to six years by ridiculously expensive starship, and trying to claim it's about the same in relative terms?

Here's a hint: governents on Earth don't stay in cryo for six years while their Genocide Fleet is in transit to Pandora.

Why would they demonize the native americans or the Chinese who were "weeks away by horse". I answered the maglav bit above.

Weeks doesn't equal years, for once. Also, the population agreed to this and had attitudes which made it possible. Seeing as the government put restrictions on the RDA to not kill the natives, it's unlikely they'd suddendly turn around and declare otherwise. The RDA would've been able to simply get government approval for their little genocide operation if it was possible.

Whats stopping the British from getting violent again with the Chinese? Or the Americans now that the trade gap is screwing them? Trade on equal terms.

Equal trade enforced by nuclear weapons and a massive People's Liberation Army with roughly equal technology. The Na'Vi don't have them, so if the humans decide to go at it again, they're screwed - last time they were almost destroyed, and would've been if the RDA expected Eywa's intervention.

You don't have a shiny rock worth millions of dollars per gram and not something nasty happen politically. It is heavily implied that not getting this work could lead to political and social collapse.

Where is it "heavily implied"?

[Broomstick]

It's not that RDA gear is not military level. The problem is it is over engineered, over complex and seemingly intentionally designed with exploits. If you are a company security guard on shoestring supply lines you would find 1950s aircraft lot more cheaper than vulnerable VTOLs that strain todays USA. Similarly you can't put uber halo like motion trackers capable of seeing through solid objects and claim no money left for cameras on that powered armor so better go with fragile glass canopy.

50's gear would be valuable antiques .
Who's to say that anyone would even know how to use old gear, even today pilots are quite reliant on computert aided navigations, HUDs, fly by wire, gyroscopes, blah blah, and those haven't been around for that long especially for such a conservative industry - give it a century and how many pilots could you find with experience using WW1 planes? (Which would probably be less of a technological gap).

Having flown both airplanes with computer-aided navigation and a WWII era airplane, I'd say that so far the basic aspects of airplanes have remained pretty darn consistent. Of course, that doesn't prove that the there will be no significant changes in the future, and that some flight characteristics won't change (there are differences between, say, 1970 and 2000, much less 1950 and 2150), but I don't see it as unreasonable that a 22nd Century pilot could step into a 1950's era airplane and fly it. In fact, they could probably fly a WWI era airplane as by that time there had been sufficient standardization in controls to make the basic flight control devices familar - i.e. stick, rudder, and throttle. The problem would be that the newer aircraft are more "forgiving" of certain types of error and pilots who are extremely reliant on that sort of thing, along with electronic aids, would have to go throught an adjust period - which, in the case of flight characteristics, could be fatal. On the other hand, there are "flight simulators" (they had crude ones as far back as WWI) that enable pilots to practice with unfamilar equipment in a safe environment. Clearly, the Avatarverse had the computer power to do that. So, along with the blueprints for a 1950's airplane send a simular program with emulation data.

The BIGGEST problem I see with the Pandoran pilots stepping into a 1950's airplane is that they aren't airplane pilots! They fly rotorcraft, they are rotorcraft pilots (with possible exceptions for the ground-to-orbit shuttle pilots). Attempting to fly an airplane when all you have is rotorcraft experience is a very good way to get killed as they do not have the same control systems or cockpit layout.

The Pandoran VTOL's are rotorcraft - we are in no way improbable as we have had servicable VTOL rotorcraft in the real world since the 1940's. They're called "helicopters". The VTOL's in the movie are largely glorified helicopters.

What? Those VTOLs are glorified helicopters, they're just as vulnerable as helicopters, they're just helicopters with funny looking helicopter blades. In a friggin' jungle where you have to land in the middle of clearings to drop mercs or scientists in the middle of the bush, or where you have to extract them, I think there'd be more utility in a helicopter-like design.

Especially when relatively low speed helicopters/VTOL birds can allow you to fly in between the giant-ass trees and floating islands even when the sensors are screwing up and you have to rely on Mk. 1 eyeballs - can your 1950s aircraft do that?

^ What he said.

You guys sure about the aircraft ? VTOLs remain the holy grail of aviation.

See "helicopter" - it is a VTOL. We've had them for 70 years already. What is difficult is a VTOL airplane.

They are motherfucking complex to design, build, maintain and fly.

Well, yes, helicopters are inherently more complex and maintenance-intensive than airplanes....

The V-22 Osprey is decades in development and already killed dozens of people in crashes. It costs more than many state of the art fighter jets and might break US marine corps budget all by itself. How the hell can making such craft be easier than a simple plane ?

It's not - but they weren't using the Osprey system, the Pandoran aircraft, at least to my eye are helicopters. Yes, they've been wanked a bit, but they are pure rotorcraft and not a half-assed bastard hybrid like the Osprey.

RDA should have built normal helicopters for utility purpose and a few fixed wing planes for security related tasks.

No - airplanes are not particuarly suited for the Pandoran environment. All points about the tree canopies, the tight maneuvering requirements, and lack of landing strips apply. Under such circumstances fixed wing are not the best choice for anything really - consider that the US relied heavily on rotorcraft in Vietnam, where they were fighting in a jungle environment. Fixed wings were used for some observation (which tasks are frequently done by satellite now, and probably would continue to be satellite-based in the future) and for bombing runs -- which, as the RDA was not supposed to be engaging in open warfare with the natives, wasn't likely to be on the equipment lists. The Pandoran reliance on rotorcraft makes perfect sense. The use of a transport to throw jury-rigged mining changes as bombs also makes perfect sense in the context of the story and is no more ridiculous than WWI era observation planes dropping hand grenades over the side as "bombs". It's repurposing an aircraft with local materials for a role they weren't originally intended to fulfill.

It makes sense they would have rotorcraft and rotorpilots - it's not cost-effective day-to-day to maintain a parallel aviation capacity of airplanes and fixed wing pilots who are more or less useless for day-to-day operations, especially when the rotorcraft can also do security duty when needed.

Actually helicopters would be much better for moving people and cargo around the forest from cost perspective. In case of an attack a helicopter could also defend itself at least as well as the VTOLs given same armament.

Um... maybe that's why they were using helicopters?

If their manufacturing so good they can make VTOLs onsite easily they can make many more robust airplanes and helicopters.

Their vehicles ARE helicopters!

And, again - it doesn't make sense to maintain two sets of piloting skills given their limited resources. Much better to hire helicopter pilots and keepthem current in helicopters than to try to add on fixed-wing aircraft. It's not just a matter of building and maintaining machines, you also have to maintain the human skills to use those machines.

I doubt any helicopter would keep flying for long after it's rotor blades are done chopping up the wildlife.

Rotors have some ability to chop things up, but given the speed of impact and the energy involved it can do Bad Things to the rotor, after which Bad Things tend to happen to the aircraft and those inside it. And, in fact, on Pandora the rotorcraft all seem to have circular guards around their rotors, presumably to provide some protection to the blades. This would add weight and complexity to such an aircraft but if the chances of rotorstrikes were high enough it might be a reasonable trade off. Given the tight quarters for operations and the number of airborne creatures on Pandora this, too, makes some sense.

Actually, those movie gunships (I refuse to call them VTOLs: they're effin' helicopters, just with an exotic rotor arrangement!) lose to classical helicopters in the "rotor diameter" category because of the way their rotors are arranged. Of course, those rings probably do make the blades a bit safer in case of them hitting something.

With a denser atmosphere they don't need rotors as wide as Earth helicopters to get the same performance.

I thought their rather small VTOL rotors were not quite as wide in diameter as the rotors of the helicopters, which seem wider.

EDIT:

Blackhawk helicopter rotors are 16 meters in diameter. The Pandorapedia says that those Scorpion gunships are just 8.7 meters wide. Moreover, while the Scorpion gunships' rotors are contained on those two ring-thinggies, a helicopter's rotors spin all around the helicopter, increasing its overall area 'coverage' compared to the relatively confined Scorpion gunship rotors. The gunship rotors would have less chances of hitting foreign objects compared to a Blackhawk helicopter.

THEY'RE FREAKIN' HELICOPTERS - just call them that, m'kay? And, again - with a denser atmosphere you don't need as great a rotor diameter. Also, "confining" a prop (and helicopters rotors are, in many ways, horizontal propellers) does not necessarialy reduce its effectiveness, see "ducted fan". Cripes, ducted fans are standard equipement on many aircraft even today. The Pandoran use of them is a bit different than what we do, but given the environment, not particuarly outrageous or far-fetched. Properly designed, the "ring thingies" will actually make the Pandoran rotors MORE efficient than present-day helicopters, not less.

[Broomstick]

No, it won't. They just got their asses kicked and their Home Tree destroyed with contemptuous ease by a human group with comparatively puny numbers. They eventually won, but only with help from the planet itself, and I'm sure Jake Sully would point out to them that the humans didn't even bring their best stuff, never mind large numbers. They would have to be complete and utter imbeciles not to recognize that they need something closer to technological parity with potential invaders after this fiasco, especially considering the way their fighting ranks were decimated during the fighting.

Keep in mind that even though they eventually won, they suffered very heavy losses and they were not facing anything remotely approaching equivalent numbers of humans.

An analogous situation is the European invasion of North America, where the natives had stone age tech and in some areas not even agriculture - the natives rapidly adopted whatever European technology they could either trade for or steal, and developed better and better counter measures. The final end of the "Indian Wars" can in 1886 with the surrender of Geronimo who, from 1858 to 1886 had battled not just the US army but the Mexican one as well, nearly 30 years. Geronimo wasn't born knowing tactics and he didn't start life as a warrior (he was actually a "medicine man" first, it wasn't until his wife and children were killed that he went on the warpath). He learned that as an adult, by figuring out that bows and arrows and flint knives weren't going to defeat the invaders.

Assuming the Na'vi are as intelligent as humans, and have equal capacity to reason (not that the average human has an abundance of that) they should be able to acquire/steal human technology, especially with Jake and a few others to help them.

So the question becomes, how much can they accomplish in ~12 years? Assuming the company has the support to gear up and come back to try again?

Nothing meaningful, however, it's unlikely the corporation will return, in my reading of it. Why the hell would those gobshites retain their access to the system after the titanic screwup that is the film?

The hitch to that is that there are already other ships on the way from Earth. Even if the RDA is shut down after word gets back to the home planet, there are still ships en route that will arrive periodically and will need to refuel before returning to Earth. Pandora will have some more visitors even if all operations are shut down/abandoned simply because of the way the ships are scheduled and the time it takes for them to arrive and turn around.

Here's the review of a black girl I know.

-snip whatever that was-

Sooo, count me with the detractors. Because filthy honkey cracker white-boy I may be, but even I find that cringe worthy. You've been on planet a month TOPS boy, you have no right to that phrase.

By that point he was on the planet at least 3 months actually. Either way, he had been fully assimilated into the People by that point. Remember that whole thing with the ceremony about his second birth? So yeah, that meant that he was part of the Omaticaya, so his usage of that phrase was appropriate. He wasn't just some guy in "blueface", he was an accepted member of their society.

Right! And Arnold Schwarzeneggar can't be governor of California 'cause he's a fuckin' Austrian, you know, like Hitler and a pansy-ass European .... oh, wait. I mean, holy fuck, Schwarzeneggar, despite his accent and obvious foreign origin, is in some ways more American than a lot of people born here.

While it would have been more plausible for Sully's transformation to have taken place over years rather than months, moving to a new place and adopting a new language, new customs, adoption into a "tribe" as a full-fledged citizen and assuming a leadership role is hardly unprecedented in our own world and time.

So when a person has gone through all the rites of passage in that society, learned all their cultures, accepts their ways, and is initiated through that ritual where they all touch him and touch each other and form a big circle to officially acknowledge him into your society, and when that person falls in love with one of the natives and falls in love with the culture, when that person finds himself more at home in this new land (because he found his previous existence wretched and paraplegic) than in his old one, and when he is willing to cast away his previous existence and is willing to risk his life and die for his newfound people, somehow this is still not enough for your standards of acceptance (though, woah, it seems like the Na'vi are more open minded and appreciative and shit)?

Wow. They'd let a cheese sandwich join the tribe, wouldn't they? And it's amazing how someone who's never been on this planet before takes to the stone-age life like a duck to water, isn't it? I mean, it's not like you need to learn all the plants and animals, what you can eat and what you can't, all the cultural subtleties that can get you kicked out in the rain. Oh goodness, no, that would take years, we don't have time for that in this movie.

Right - there isn't time for it in the movie.

Don't be stupid - the Na'vi are well aware that Jake isn't native to Pandora. And while some human societies are dickwads about people joining their tribe others are much more accepting. The Na'vi want to suck knowledge out of Jake's brain just as much as vice versa, they put him through their version of "boot camp", and acceptance of someone doesn't mean forgetting their origins.

Do you people get your panties in a bunch when an immigrant to the US who is a naturalized citizen starts talking about "my country" in reference the US? Jake "immigrated" to the Na'vi.

They seem to have been perfectly willing to tolerate and even accept the humans prior to the events of the movie, and seem quick to forgive and allow Ripley and co. to return later.

Sigourney Grace Ripley was kind of a special case, it seems, as others pointed out: the Na'Vi knew she was an Avatar, but went to the trouble of saving her body when they were fleeing the home tree. They didn't even do that for their own chieftain.

A major difference is that they knew their chief was dead - they also knew that Grace might at some point reinhabit her avatar. The Avatar wasn't dead, just unconscious (though I do wonder how long an avatar could go without "maintenance")

[Blayne]

I'll say it again the background source material from my reading from third sources state that the maglav trains are key to Earth's economy.

Also note that its very silly to counter this by using the statement of people fighting in a SA hellhole, it could be possible for a large portion of the earth to be a mega cities and certain areas to still be hellholes.

Alot of the information for the film actually is never said on screen but is in the material released with the film, alot of it detailing the shiny rocks importance.

However though to my mind the real prize on Pandora is the trees, that the whole world is one giant supercomputer could have huge advantages if Humans have advanced sentient AI they could interface directly with it on a planetary scale if they don't then they can probably replicate the effects of it to produce sentient AI. The technological breakthroughs through studing the plant-computers would be mind boggling.

[Srelex]

I'll say it again the background source material from my reading from third sources state that the maglav trains are key to Earth's economy.

Well, that makes no sense as the internet and instant communications would surely make need for physical transit redundant. It could be that the sources are biased IU material.

[PeZook]

I'll say it again the background source material from my reading from third sources state that the maglav trains are key to Earth's economy.

How? More to the point, since they're impossible to build without unobtainium, they couldn't have been around very long, so Earth clearly managed to survive without them even in its overpopulated spirulina-eating state. It's not like fast train are impossible to build without resorting to maglev

[Shroom Man 777]

THEY'RE FREAKIN' HELICOPTERS - just call them that, m'kay? And, again - with a denser atmosphere you don't need as great a rotor diameter. Also, "confining" a prop (and helicopters rotors are, in many ways, horizontal propellers) does not necessarialy reduce its effectiveness, see "ducted fan". Cripes, ducted fans are standard equipement on many aircraft even today. The Pandoran use of them is a bit different than what we do, but given the environment, not particuarly outrageous or far-fetched. Properly designed, the "ring thingies" will actually make the Pandoran rotors MORE efficient than present-day helicopters, not less.

I wasn't putting into question the efficiency or effectiveness of the Avatar helo's ducted fans. I was actually saying that, compared to modern Blackhawks, the reduced diameter of those Avatar helicopters' fans and their ducted nature actually makes them safer and more resistant to foreign objects and obstructions that might damage them.

I don't think I even thought about how the Avatar helicopter's smaller fans would've been more/less efficient than modern helicopters. I was just thinking about their vulnerability to stuff like vines, trees, birds, foreign objects, and friggin dinosaurs trying to eat them!

No - airplanes are not particuarly suited for the Pandoran environment. All points about the tree canopies, the tight maneuvering requirements, and lack of landing strips apply. Under such circumstances fixed wing are not the best choice for anything really - consider that the US relied heavily on rotorcraft in Vietnam, where they were fighting in a jungle environment.

BLARGH! The USA would've won the Vietnam War if they used fixed wing aircraft from the 1950s/60s instead of fancy-shmancy "helicopter" with VTOLs!

Do you people get your panties in a bunch when an immigrant to the US who is a naturalized citizen starts talking about "my country" in reference the US? Jake "immigrated" to the Na'vi.

They probably do, and that is why they commit hate crimes on Indian immigrants in places like Sydney and Melbourne and stuff.

Also note that its very silly to counter this by using the statement of people fighting in a SA hellhole, it could be possible for a large portion of the earth to be a mega cities and certain areas to still be hellholes.

You said that the Earth (minus the oceans) has become a city, mang. I was just replying to that.

Please stop calling me a Nazi, it doesn't get us anywhere.

Bleargh, then stop rooting for the use of excessive genocidal force on fucking unarmed natives, mang. If I said that the Germans should've used excessive genocidal force on those racial minorities in Europe, or something equally abhorrent, I sure as hell would get called a Nazi.

[Ugolino]

On the destruction of the Navi:

Yes, they're the good guys. Yes, the RDA is a bunch of complete monsters. Yes, the Navi are intelligent, moral, etc etc.

But they're annoying. They're preachy and they're in tune with nature and they're infinitely better than the humans. That kind of implausible perfection just makes me root for the villains.

It's fiction. I support their destruction because I find them annoying and badly written, not because such an action could be considered anything but monstrous in real life.

It's more or less for the same reasons I hate the 40k Ultramarines.

[Spoonist]

It's more or less for the same reasons I hate the 40k Ultramarines.

Because the ultramarines are intelligent, nature-loving, treehugging, preachy, moralising people in tune with their environment?

[Shroom Man 777]

With all the genocidal milwankery going on months before the movie was released, and all those assholes going on about American foreign interest and how might makes right in global affairs and how the West's standing in the world justifies their amoral and often immoral approaches to other people, I think Avatar's message is precisely what the doctor ordered. Boo to all you guys fapping to your 1960s pie charts of Saint LeMay and Space McNamara and whatever.