Colorado Spings, Tea-Party central, can't keep the lights on

[Darth Wong]

Who cares whether the douchebag right-wing voters will pay the price for their own voting mistakes? Even if they do, they'll just say it's all the fault of overpaid unionized city workers rather than cutbacks. And this might actually be partially true; I don't know about city workers in that town but here in Toronto, we have fucking bus drivers getting paid $28/hr. And we're not even necessarily getting competence for that exorbitant cost; two pedestrians were hit by bus drivers here in the last week alone, and another driver was caught on camera stopping his route so he could take an unscheduled coffee break.

[General Zod]

Who cares whether the douchebag right-wing voters will pay the price for their own voting mistakes? Even if they do, they'll just say it's all the fault of overpaid unionized city workers rather than cutbacks. And this might actually be partially true; I don't know about city workers in that town but here in Toronto, we have fucking bus drivers getting paid $28/hr. And we're not even necessarily getting competence for that exorbitant cost; two pedestrians were hit by bus drivers here in the last week alone, and another driver was caught on camera stopping his route so he could take an unscheduled coffee break.

The middle management budget for Colorado Springs city employees is pretty obscene.

Community business leaders have jumped into the budget debate, some questioning city spending on what they see as "Ferrari"-level benefits for employees and high salaries in middle management. Broadmoor luxury resort chief executive Steve Bartolin wrote an open letter asking why the city spends $89,000 per employee, when his enterprise has a similar number of workers and spends only $24,000 on each.

[ZGundam]

I'm surprised that no one has asked Douglas Bruce "Mr Tabor" himself if he feels responsable for this. After all, he was the one who lead all the 'no new taxes for any reason' crowd and now look where has gotten them.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Who cares whether the douchebag right-wing voters will pay the price for their own voting mistakes? Even if they do, they'll just say it's all the fault of overpaid unionized city workers rather than cutbacks. And this might actually be partially true; I don't know about city workers in that town but here in Toronto, we have fucking bus drivers getting paid $28/hr. And we're not even necessarily getting competence for that exorbitant cost; two pedestrians were hit by bus drivers here in the last week alone, and another driver was caught on camera stopping his route so he could take an unscheduled coffee break.

The middle management budget for Colorado Springs city employees is pretty obscene.

Community business leaders have jumped into the budget debate, some questioning city spending on what they see as "Ferrari"-level benefits for employees and high salaries in middle management. Broadmoor luxury resort chief executive Steve Bartolin wrote an open letter asking why the city spends $89,000 per employee, when his enterprise has a similar number of workers and spends only $24,000 on each.

One needs to look at the variance in that. Some individuals like police in specialized positions (forensics etc) probably make a good chunk of change, they have to pay them that well in order to attract people to those positions. Others, like the guys who do park maintenence probaby make 18k a year or something along those lines.

Mr. Bartolin probably mostly imploys service staff.

You seem to specify middle management, but saying "per employee" is different from talking about middle management.

[General Zod]

Who cares whether the douchebag right-wing voters will pay the price for their own voting mistakes? Even if they do, they'll just say it's all the fault of overpaid unionized city workers rather than cutbacks. And this might actually be partially true; I don't know about city workers in that town but here in Toronto, we have fucking bus drivers getting paid $28/hr. And we're not even necessarily getting competence for that exorbitant cost; two pedestrians were hit by bus drivers here in the last week alone, and another driver was caught on camera stopping his route so he could take an unscheduled coffee break.

The middle management budget for Colorado Springs city employees is pretty obscene.

Community business leaders have jumped into the budget debate, some questioning city spending on what they see as "Ferrari"-level benefits for employees and high salaries in middle management. Broadmoor luxury resort chief executive Steve Bartolin wrote an open letter asking why the city spends $89,000 per employee, when his enterprise has a similar number of workers and spends only $24,000 on each.

One needs to look at the variance in that. Some individuals like police in specialized positions (forensics etc) probably make a good chunk of change, they have to pay them that well in order to attract people to those positions. Others, like the guys who do park maintenence probaby make 18k a year or something along those lines.

Mr. Bartolin probably mostly imploys service staff.

You seem to specify middle management, but saying "per employee" is different from talking about middle management.

Considering this city is having serious budget cuts in the Police and Fire Departments to make ends meet, I get the impression that these aren't those type of Middle Management.

[CmdrWilkens]

You know who'll be least affected by these cuts? Exurban fucknuts in McMansions who are overwhelmingly Republican and overwhelmingly opposed to property tax increases under any circumstances.

Its the city proper, I don't know the percentage but the corporate limits of Colorado Springs undoubtedly contain a far smaller portion of McMansions than the surrounding unincorporated suburbs. It doesn't have a huge density number (about 2k/sqmi) but its certainly a city within the limits so it would be tough to have a large number of McMansions just because of the land use requirements.

[Instant Sunrise]

I think it's worth point out that these people are railing against government spending, when Colorado Springs is economically dependent on the Air Force Academy. I guess the only government spending that they hate is the kind that doesn't benefit them personally.

[Uraniun235]

One needs to look at the variance in that. Some individuals like police in specialized positions (forensics etc) probably make a good chunk of change, they have to pay them that well in order to attract people to those positions. Others, like the guys who do park maintenence probaby make 18k a year or something along those lines.

Mr. Bartolin probably mostly imploys service staff.

You seem to specify middle management, but saying "per employee" is different from talking about middle management.

Considering this city is having serious budget cuts in the Police and Fire Departments to make ends meet, I get the impression that these aren't those type of Middle Management.

Another thing to remember is that the budget for a given position does not necessarily equal the salary for that position. For example, at the school district I work at, a position with a salary of $50,000 per year is budgeted at about $75,000, which includes the cost of providing insurance and paying into the public pension fund. Those $24,000/year luxury resort staff probably don't get much in the way of benefits.

$89,000 seems like a lot, and maybe it is, but I don't think we know enough about that number to render a definite judgment on how excessive it is. Is that number the salary or the total budget for that position? Is it an average of all city employees? Is it an average of only the "middle management" employees - and if so, what exactly is being considered "middle management"? Is it even an average? All we're going on is an open letter by someone who runs a luxury resort.

But, that said, it's entirely possible that the city employees have a union which has successfully pushed for excessive compensation.

[SirNitram]

The 'Costs us' suggests the total cost of having the job; which is compensation plus whatever other expenses are incurred by a city worker doing things like, oh, breathing, emitting heat, and defecating.

Those things they should be banned from doing on the taxpayers dime!

[Surlethe]

For example, at the school district I work at, a position with a salary of $50,000 per year is budgeted at about $75,000, which includes the cost of providing insurance and paying into the public pension fund.

Are there any budgeted costs that are not compensation in some way? I mean, if you take home just $50,000 but you have an extra $25,000 put into insurance and a pension fund, then that $25,000 is still effectively part of your wages.

[Questor]

For example, at the school district I work at, a position with a salary of $50,000 per year is budgeted at about $75,000, which includes the cost of providing insurance and paying into the public pension fund.

Are there any budgeted costs that are not compensation in some way? I mean, if you take home just $50,000 but you have an extra $25,000 put into insurance and a pension fund, then that $25,000 is still effectively part of your wages.

The only ones that I can think of that could be arguable would be employer side payroll taxes, which are (at least in theory) not supposed to affect compensation. Those can amount to quite a bit, I'm not sure of the exact rates though. Plus, the budget for a position could also include small items such as payroll processing, depending on how the accounting system is set up. I'm not sure what you would consider milage reimbursement. I consider it compensation, but the IRS doesn't.

[General Zod]

For example, at the school district I work at, a position with a salary of $50,000 per year is budgeted at about $75,000, which includes the cost of providing insurance and paying into the public pension fund.

Are there any budgeted costs that are not compensation in some way? I mean, if you take home just $50,000 but you have an extra $25,000 put into insurance and a pension fund, then that $25,000 is still effectively part of your wages.

The only thing I could really see are employee expenses, where they buy company supplies on their own dime and have it reimbursed. But I have a hard time imagining the kind of expenses that would lead to an $80k salary. Things like a meal or car allowance might play into it. Without knowing more about how Co Springs salary scheme works it's hard to say though, since they tend to get a bit muddy when you're talking middle management and up.

[Akhlut]

How reliable is the luxury resort chief executive, anyway, about what the city budgets out for middle managers?

http://www.springsgov.com/page.aspx?NavID=472

Here's the Colorado Springs city government page. I'd go through the budget myself, but my work computer is insufficient for the task and my break's ending anyway.

[Uraniun235]

For example, at the school district I work at, a position with a salary of $50,000 per year is budgeted at about $75,000, which includes the cost of providing insurance and paying into the public pension fund.

Are there any budgeted costs that are not compensation in some way? I mean, if you take home just $50,000 but you have an extra $25,000 put into insurance and a pension fund, then that $25,000 is still effectively part of your wages.

Where I work, I don't think the pension fund payments are optional, I'm pretty sure the district has to pay into the fund regardless of whether or not the individual employee wants to use the state pension program later. It's a form of compensation I suppose, but it's not like the employee could say "please direct this money to a different retirement account", so it couldn't be directly converted into salary. (And actually there's an additional retirement savings fund withdrawal from salary, so that $50K/year employee doesn't even see $50K before tax withholdings)

The insurance payments could theoretically be converted into cash (or a cash voucher) although there's probably a strong disincentive for the district to do so as it is probably able to secure the rates that it does by being able to wield all of the employees as a purchasing block - allowing people to cash out would probably negate the savings they get.


You're right that it's a form of compensation, although arguably the benefits are worth more than the money they cost. And like I said, it's also possible that these city employees are being overcompensated. I don't know enough to say one way or the other.

The point of this (which I failed to clarify earlier) was that there could be people who would take issue with "that guy makes $89,000 a year!!!" who don't realize that even though they 'only' make $50,000 a year in salary, their benefits add up to a $75,000 a year line item on the budget - and $75K vs. $89K is a lot closer than $50K vs. $89K.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Well we now found out what happened to the town that John Galt had in Colorado, after he finally got the government off his back....

[CmdrWilkens]

For example, at the school district I work at, a position with a salary of $50,000 per year is budgeted at about $75,000, which includes the cost of providing insurance and paying into the public pension fund.

Are there any budgeted costs that are not compensation in some way? I mean, if you take home just $50,000 but you have an extra $25,000 put into insurance and a pension fund, then that $25,000 is still effectively part of your wages.

Some items such as corporate liability insurance which covers the city (or company) in case of your death or disability is something which tends to carry a per employee cost and since it remains separate from things like employer sponsored life insurance you can readily say it is not a form of hidden compensation. Likewise payroll taxes and training costs are often calculated in to an employee's budget line. The materials and time needed to train and then continue to educate any employee can be (depending on the job) substantial and they do not necessarily reflect in one's own marketable skill set (they might or might not) but anyway training costs tend to be part of any per employee cost budgeting practice.