German Homeschoolers granted asylum in the USA

[Liberty]

Oh, and one more note. It's almost offensive how much you guys are ribbing homeschoolers. You're buying into a stereotype that simply isn't the reality. Yes, it happens. But what you're missing is the huge section of homeschool parents who are doing a decent job and who love their children dearly. Homeschoolers sacrifice a lot to do what they do, and for them, family is extremely important. These children are loved, well-treated, confident, and well-adjusted. Yes, there are exceptions, but the point is that they're exceptions.

Credentials: I'm currently writing my master's thesis at a public university. It's a local study of a homeschool community.

[Thanas]

Since education is basic right, parents have no right to deny it to their children - in my opinion, this is a form of mistreatement.

You miss the point - these parents AREN'T denying their children the right to an education. I haven't seen anyone contest that the children aren't being educated. They just aren't being educated in the public schools.

You are blatantly wrong.

Honestly, have you even read the article? These are full-blown crazy nuthead fundamentalists who took their children out of schools because they would read about things like

Other schoolbooks taught disrespect of authority figures and had images and tales about the occult, that included vampires and witches

.

They say they were persecuted for their evangelical Christian beliefs

The Romeikes – evangelical Christians – took exception to several items in the German public school curriculum including too permissive attitudes about sex and texts that dealt with witchcraft among others.

Having dealt with those idiots first hand, I well know what they are objecting too. The whole purpose of their homeschooling is to deny them knowledge about history, sex, religious criticism, atheism, evolution, science and every thing else that denies the bible.

Oh, btw, any fundamentalist education will deny children education, otherwise there would not be fundamentalist homeschooling in the first place. At the very best it only removes critical thinking, at the worst it deprives the children of basic skills and scars them for life.

Oh, and one more note. It's almost offensive how much you guys are ribbing homeschoolers. You're buying into a stereotype that simply isn't the reality. Yes, it happens.

Really. Do tell. I have known several homeschooled children. My family has a history of educational experience with over 160 years. I myself have a lot of experience with children as well. And not a single one of them homeschooled children measured up. I have also worked as a law student in the school department supervising homeschooled children (or for the better trying to crack down on the fundies). And the education was deficient.

Maybe the situation in the US is different because with the exception of a very few select institutions the US education system is rubbish (having been educated at a US public school for a year I can attest to that too), but the experience in Germany with homeschooling tends to be a bit different.

[Serafina]

Oh, and one more note. It's almost offensive how much you guys are ribbing homeschoolers. You're buying into a stereotype that simply isn't the reality. Yes, it happens. But what you're missing is the huge section of homeschool parents who are doing a decent job and who love their children dearly. Homeschoolers sacrifice a lot to do what they do, and for them, family is extremely important. These children are loved, well-treated, confident, and well-adjusted. Yes, there are exceptions, but the point is that they're exceptions.

Credentials: I'm currently writing my master's thesis at a public university. It's a local study of a homeschool community.

Thing is, how are parents supposed to compete with professional teachers.

Let's construct an ideal situation:
You have two parents that each have 6 hours a day to teach their children. Both have two different expertises at a high level (college or something like that).
They still can not compete with the qualification you get at a school.

Yes, they propably can teach their children basic stuff about they would learn at school - because they learned that themself in school.

But be honest here: How many parents do know even half the stuff that is teached at higher grades?
Can they teach an 16-year old what he would learn at school?

Now take into account that most parents that keep their children out of school want them to NOT learn certain things (evolution, sex education and other things), and you can see while homeschooling is lagging behind a good school.
It can be better than a bad school, particulary with educated parents - the children will get more attention from their parents than a teacher can spare, but nothing prevents them from giving them that attention when they visit a regular school.

[Thanas]

Ghetto edit:

To clarify:
If one has as much time as a teacher to dedicate schooling the kids or the organizational support and experience and training to homeschool while also managing to not deny the kids the social life and integration that results out of classroom experiences and school activities, more power to whoever manages that.

I am not saying public school is perfect, far from it, it does have serious flaws. Many parents in Germany chose to send their children to expensive private schools. However, public school is IMO the best compromise, or at least in Germany.

It certainly is better than being taught by fundies.

[Serafina]

Hm, i oversaw that post, and given that it was adressed to me, here it goes.

In my opionion, this has nothing to do with religion. Religion may be the motivator, but the requirement to send children to school has nothing to do with religion.

Do you know any fundamentalist homeschoolers? They believe God has told them to homeschool. They believe that the state is trying to brainwash their children into secularism. And to some extent, they're right. The state does teach its values and what it feels is important in the public schools. These parents disagree. For them, it is a deeply religious matter.

As i said - it IS the motivator.
However, law IS more important than religion - particulary because this is not about their own personal religion, but about their children.
As an example: If your religion says that you have to flog yourself if you sin, do so. But if it says that you should flog others if they sin, that is a crime.

Even compared to bad public schools, parents simply can not educate their children equally well.

*Shakes head*
This is patently false. Have you ever met any homeschoolers? Sure, there are plenty of failures, but that idea that parents cannot educate their children as well as bad public schools is just wrong! You may not know this, but I was homeschooled, K-12, and I received an excellent education. I don't regret it in the least. I received a full tuition college scholarship, my sister received a full tuition and room and board college scholarship, and my brother received a full tuition college scholarship. I have nine siblings still at home, and they are also doing very well. Homeschooling can be very successful, and can be more successful than the public schools. It isn't always, but it can be, and often is.

You may not know this either, but Surlethe and I intend to homeschool our young daughter. Not for religious reasons of course (hell no!) but because we believe it will give her a better education than the failing public school system, and because we want to be close as a family.

You know, i would love to see you procuring a statistic that shows that homeschooling produces better average edcuation than the us-american public school system (or rather, the german one, which is quite different and IMO better).

And why does homeschooling require you to keep your child out of school (i am now actually talking about you personally, too)?
If you want to ensure that it has a good education, what prevents you from adding to the public school in the evening or on weekends?
You would get the best of both worlds: Education about things you do not know, good education in fields you do know, and a good relationship with your child.

Since education is basic right, parents have no right to deny it to their children - in my opinion, this is a form of mistreatement.

You miss the point - these parents AREN'T denying their children the right to an education. I haven't seen anyone contest that the children aren't being educated. They just aren't being educated in the public schools.

Yes, they ARE. Because it can NOT be guaranteed that they receive the same quality and quantity of education as other children - particulary in the case of fundamentalists, since they explicitly state that they do not want their children to know about other religions&cultures, sex education, evolution, the scientific method and certain parts of history.

[Liberty]

Oh, and one more note. It's almost offensive how much you guys are ribbing homeschoolers. You're buying into a stereotype that simply isn't the reality. Yes, it happens.

Really. Do tell. I have known several homeschooled children. My family has a history of educational experience with over 160 years. I myself have a lot of experience with children as well. And not a single one of them homeschooled children measured up. I have also worked as a law student in the school department supervising homeschooled children (or for the better trying to crack down on the fundies). And the education was deficient.

Did you miss that I was homeschooled? As long as we're simply trading anecdotes, I was homeschooled and I then got a full tuition scholarship and went to a public university and graduated with my BA with a 3.998 GPA (out of 4.0). My professors loved me because I was an ideal student. I am now nearly finished with my MA, and my GPA is currently 4.0. Clearly, being homeschooled worked for me. My sister and brother both have GPAs that are over 3.5 and are currently working on their BAs (I don't know their exact GPAs, sorry). So, there are three examples of where homeschooling worked. My next brother, who is still in high school, is already taking college classes, to supplement his homeschooling. He is 17, has a total of 16 credit hours so far, and has a 4.0. His professors love him. So again, success.

In the United States, college admissions officers specifically look for homeschooled students because they know that they are good. But don't just take my word for it.

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1393 ... in-college

Homeschoolers are successful in college
April 23, 2009
Education Examiner
Donna Gundle-Krieg

Former homeschooled students almost always excel in college, according to university admissions officers, who verify what many studies have already proven.
“Current estimates place the number of home-educated students in the United States at 2 million and growing,” according to the Home School Legal Defense Association.

“Homeschooling is now a legal option for parents in all 50 states. Every year a significant portion of these students seek higher education.”

Why WOULDN’T a college want to accept homeschoolers?

After all, one extensive study showed that college professors rank homeschoolers in the top tier, both academically and spiritually.

Another study shows that nearly 80% of homeschooled children test above the national average, and 54.7% of homeschoolers test in the top quarter.

Despite all this, most colleges are just now figuring out how to compare homeschoolers to others from a more traditional background.

In fact, only 44% of colleges have verbal or written policies for homeschool applicants.

However, 96% of the colleges polled had at least one and sometimes over 200 home-educated students enrolled at their college.

A survey of colleges and universities in all 50 states conducted by the National Center for Home Education revealed the following anecdotal accounts of homeschoolers in college:

A Harvard University (MA) admissions officer said most of their home-educated students "have done very well. They usually are very motivated in what they do."

In addition to Harvard, prominent schools like Yale (CT), Princeton (NJ), Texas A&M, Brown University (RI), the Carnegie Mellon Institute (PA), the Universities of Arizona, Maryland, Virginia, Hawaii and many others all have flexible transcript criteria, accept parental evaluations, and do not require any accreditation or a General Equivalency Diploma (GED).

At Kansas State University and others like Lipscomb University and Middlebury College (VT), transcripts are optional.

In 1996, Birmingham-Southern College (AL) had only one homeschool applicant, but the admissions officer said the college “would be glad to have many more just like him!”

Roughly 50 homeschoolers attended the University of Montana. “The homeschoolers in this state seem to be up-to-date and well-organized. We even have homeschoolers in our honors programs. I know of one student for sure. She is one of our top students,” remarked one admissions official.

Bruce Walker at the University of Delaware said one home-educated student who “had an exceptional SAT score was invited to be considered for a full scholarship!”

“Homeschooling is becoming more and more prevalent,” said Mark Wheeler of Boise State University (ID). “We’re all trying to work together.”

Pennsylvania State University had 20 homeschool applicants in 1995, double the previous year. They prefer a portfolio with as much information as possible, including extra curricular activities that demonstrate leadership. “Homeschoolers show strongly in that,” said the admissions officer for Penn State.

Lewis and Clark College (OR) has a method of application called the “Portfolio Path” where a student can bypass standardized tests and instead be “reviewed on a myriad of things that would point to, and measure academic performance.”

The Universities of Minnesota and Mississippi also look at the all-around abilities demonstrated in a homeschooler’s portfolio.

University of Kentucky homeschool applicants “have to provide a portfolio of what they have done throughout their high school years” that is “creative and informative.” A UK admissions officer also said, “Our homeschoolers (about 50) tend to be very bright, and have scored very high on standardized tests.”

The Dartmouth College (NH) admissions officer explained, “The applications I’ve come across are outstanding. Homeschoolers have a distinct advantage because of the individualized instruction they have received.”

University of Alaska/Fairbanks has had over 300 home-educated students in the last few years, several of which were in their honors program. The program director, Mary Dicicco commented, “They have been wonderful students on the whole!”

Staff from Geneva College (PA) and Belhaven College (MS) are actively recruiting homeschoolers by going to homeschool conferences and book fairs to talk to parents and students about admissions.

“Homeschoolers have to work harder thereby increasing student productivity,” Jeff Lantis said of the 75-90 homeschoolers at Hillsdale College (MI). “Homeschoolers are consistently among our top students, in fact homeschoolers have won our distinct Honors Program the last three years in a row. We tend to look very favorably upon homeschoolers applying to our college.”

USA TODAY reported on October 28, 1996, that the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill’s dean of admissions, James Walters, has enrolled about 20 home-educated students, all of which “are performing above average academically.”

I support homeschool regulations, of course. While homeschooling can, and in many cases, does, work, there are failures as well. And thus, it should be regulated. Homeschool parents who fail at educating their children should be required to put their children in school. But regulated - not shut down completely.

Since education is basic right, parents have no right to deny it to their children - in my opinion, this is a form of mistreatement.

You miss the point - these parents AREN'T denying their children the right to an education. I haven't seen anyone contest that the children aren't being educated. They just aren't being educated in the public schools.

You are blatantly wrong. The whole purpose of their homeschooling is to deny them knowledge about history, sex, religious criticism, atheism, evolution, science and every thing else that denies the bible.

Then we need to have a conversation about what constitutes as "educating" your children. We can require parents to use certified textbooks and have homeschooled children be tested each year. Simply dismissing the idea of homeschooling because this particular family is fundamentalist is flawed.

And this is a tricky issue. Should parents be allowed to teach their children anything they want? In the U.S. they are. It's called "parental rights." You would prefer to require that children be taught certain things, things the state determines they should be taught, and the parents have no option. Well, that works fine as long as the "good guys" are in charge of the state. What if the fundamentalists are? Or nazis? Or Communists? How do we balance the rights of the parents, the rights of the child, and the rights of the state? It's not an easy question.

[Liberty]

Thing is, how are parents supposed to compete with professional teachers.

Let's construct an ideal situation:
You have two parents that each have 6 hours a day to teach their children. Both have two different expertises at a high level (college or something like that).
They still can not compete with the qualification you get at a school.

Yes, they propably can teach their children basic stuff about they would learn at school - because they learned that themself in school.

But be honest here: How many parents do know even half the stuff that is teached at higher grades?
Can they teach an 16-year old what he would learn at school?

Oh my gosh - no offence - you guys know nothing about homeschooling in the United States. The parent doesn't just sit down and teach the child exactly what they learned themselves twenty years earlier!

Homeschoolers teach their children using curriculum, not using what they have stored up in their heads from years ago. As a high schooler, I used a calculus textbook and asked my father when I encountered problems. When my brother reached calculus, my mom ordered a DVD that showed a teacher actually teaching the class and students asking questions. My siblings and I were involved in a co-op which met one day each week for band, strings, choir, art, and drama. We took private music lessons as well. When parents can't teach a particular subject or level, they hire tutors, or get families together for homeschool classes, using the expertise of the various parents. One homeschool mother in the homeschool community I'm studying had her teaching degree in science, so she offered science classes for homeschoolers for over a decade. When I was a high schooler, I participated in a homesschool debate league, debating everything from energy policy to immigration. And on and on! Not everyone does it perfectly, of course, but this is how homeschooling works in this country. It's not isolated and it's not simply teaching the kids what you remember from school two decades ago. It's so much more.

[Serafina]

Did you miss that I was homeschooled? As long as we're simply trading anecdotes, I was homeschooled and I then got a full tuition scholarship and went to a public university and graduated with my BA with a 3.998 GPA (out of 4.0). My professors loved me because I was an ideal student. I am now nearly finished with my MA, and my GPA is currently 4.0. Clearly, being homeschooled worked for me. My sister and brother both have GPAs that are over 3.5 and are currently working on their BAs (I don't know their exact GPAs, sorry). So, there are three examples of where homeschooling worked. My next brother, who is still in high school, is already taking college classes, to supplement his homeschooling. He is 17, has a total of 16 credit hours so far, and has a 4.0. His professors love him. So again, success.

In the United States, college admissions officers specifically look for homeschooled students because they know that they are good. But don't just take my word for it.

http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-1393 ... in-college

You realize that this has propably more to do with being ambitious than with homeschooling?
You (and your siblings) are apparently quite ambitious and intelligent (supported by the fact that you were able to overcome decades of indoctrination).
How much knowledge is reall due to your parents, and how much is due to you being interested in knowledge?
Perhaps you would have fared equally well in a public school?

As a counter-anecdote:
My sister went to the Hauptschule (the lowest form of public school, which is often seen and arguably is really bad).
However, she discovered her thrist for knowledge while there and , suprise, got perfect grade. Right now, she is pursuing her abitur (highest graduation in Germany) with great success.
She had a very bad start at a public school, but she was easily able to overcome that since she is smart and learns on her own. It is due to her and not either homeschooling nor public school that she is succesfull.

I support homeschool regulations, of course. While homeschooling can, and in many cases, does, work, there are failures as well. And thus, it should be regulated. Homeschool parents who fail at educating their children should be required to put their children in school. But regulated - not shut down completely.

And how exactly do you want to regualte homeschooling?
If you are advocating it, you must propose a mechanism to ensure that the education is at least equal to the one in public schools.

Then we need to have a conversation about what constitutes as "educating" your children. We can require parents to use certified textbooks and have homeschooled children be tested each year. Simply dismissing the idea of homeschooling because this particular family is fundamentalist is flawed.

And this is a tricky issue. Should parents be allowed to teach their children anything they want? In the U.S. they are. It's called "parental rights." You would prefer to require that children be taught certain things, things the state determines they should be taught, and the parents have no option. Well, that works fine as long as the "good guys" are in charge of the state. What if the fundamentalists are? Or nazis? Or Communists? How do we balance the rights of the parents, the rights of the child, and the rights of the state? It's not an easy question.

The question should rather be:
Are they allowed NOT to teach them certain things?

Look, one can teach their 13-year old about the intrisic facts of prostitution or about nuclear physics or whatever they want.
But that is different than delibarately keeping them ignorant, which is a stated goal of many homeschoolers. You can not deny that such people exist - for me, they are sufficient reason to ban homeschooling.

[Serafina]

*snip*

You do realize that all these measures can also be taken if your child is in a public school?

Besides, a lot of questions need an person that is well educated in that particular subject to answer.
If you happen to know someone who is (or if you are it yourself), good for you.
But do you know experts in
-Two foreign languages
-Your first language
-Biology
-Physics
-Chemistry
-Mathematics
-Art
-Music
-Law
-Politics
-Sociology
-Psychology
-Economics
-History
-Geography

Those were the subjects i had at public school for nine years. I know people who could teach me half of that - perhaps.
And i happen to have a lot of academics in my family (and as friends of the family).
Yes, additional people could have been hired to fill these gaps.

But in the end, isn't it peculiar that they just try to emulate what any child should do at public school?
Namely, having competent, educated people to teach and studying on his/her own?
In cases where they can fill all the gaps and the children want to learn, they are mostly successfull - but is the knowledge ever put to hard tests? There is a reason you do tests at school - to ensure the stuff actually gets learned. If you just tech yourself without tests, you will have gasps.
Yes, yes, you can do tests at home, too - again, emulating the public school system.

But what about the parents that do not have the time, connection and money to educate their children like that?
Do you honestly belive that their children will be well educated?

I do not see a difference between a good homeschooler and a public student with supportive parents - except that the parents who send their child to public school will have it much easier and are less likely to run into any gaps.
Oh, and their child will have an excellent proving ground for his/her social skills, too.

[Simon_Jester]

I think the problem here is that there are two separate communities in the US that give rise to homeschoolers.

One are the fundamentalists- idiot fanatics who try to teach their children to be idiot fanatics, and are horribly likely to succeed.

The other are intelligent people with high general competence who are honestly trying to do a better job than the public schools in their area. Being intelligent, competent people who have taken on a big responsibility, they are likely to do a lot of research and put a lot of effort into having a good curriculum for their child. And finding tutors to supplement the child's education in areas where they are not qualified to teach.

The first group... if they produce a smart, educated child, it's in spite of the parent's efforts, not because of it.

The second group can produce model students whose education is at least equivalent to what they'd be likely to get from American public schools. Close enough that they are at no disadvantage in college (like Liberty Ferall), close enough that they can even compete with foreign students who had the benefit of the superior public education systems of other First World countries.
________

Maybe in Germany, you have only the first group and not the second?

[Liberty]

You realize that this has propably more to do with being ambitious than with homeschooling?
You (and your siblings) are apparently quite ambitious and intelligent (supported by the fact that you were able to overcome decades of indoctrination).
How much knowledge is reall due to your parents, and how much is due to you being interested in knowledge?
Perhaps you would have fared equally well in a public school?

My point is that homeschoolers can, and do, succeed. It was inferred that they do not.

I support homeschool regulations, of course. While homeschooling can, and in many cases, does, work, there are failures as well. And thus, it should be regulated. Homeschool parents who fail at educating their children should be required to put their children in school. But regulated - not shut down completely.

And how exactly do you want to regualte homeschooling?
If you are advocating it, you must propose a mechanism to ensure that the education is at least equal to the one in public schools.

I would propose having parents register with the state their intent to homeschool, and submit their curricular plans for the year for approval. I would then have the students tested at the end of each school year (at a public school) and would use the question of whether the students improve academically to determine whether the parents are allowed to continue homeschooling. If the children do not improve academically from one year to the next, they should not be allowed to continue homeschooling. I would also be in favor of annual visits from a social worker to ensure that the children are developing socially as well as academically.

The question should rather be: Are they allowed NOT to teach them certain things?
Look, one can teach their 13-year old about the intrisic facts of prostitution or about nuclear physics or whatever they want.
But that is different than delibarately keeping them ignorant, which is a stated goal of many homeschoolers. You can not deny that such people exist - for me, they are sufficient reason to ban homeschooling.

You could also mandate that the children attend a sex education seminar of some sort at the school. You could test their knowledge of evolution in the yearly testing, thus ensuring that they have to learn it or fail the test and cease homeschooling.

I am not denying that such people exist. You, however, are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Another note: the public school system in the U.S., with a very few exceptions, sucks. Germany's, from what you have said, does not. If I lived in Germany, I would probably be in favor of sending my children to public school. In the U.S., I am not (though, if the local high school is good, when it comes time, I would be open to sending my daughter there rather than homeschooling high school).

[Liberty]

I think the problem here is that there are two separate communities in the US that give rise to homeschoolers.

One are the fundamentalists- idiot fanatics who try to teach their children to be idiot fanatics, and are horribly likely to succeed.

The other are intelligent people with high general competence who are honestly trying to do a better job than the public schools in their area. Being intelligent, competent people who have taken on a big responsibility, they are likely to do a lot of research and put a lot of effort into having a good curriculum for their child. And finding tutors to supplement the child's education in areas where they are not qualified to teach.

The first group... if they produce a smart, educated child, it's in spite of the parent's efforts, not because of it.

The second group can produce model students whose education is at least equivalent to what they'd be likely to get from American public schools. Close enough that they are at no disadvantage in college (like Liberty Ferall), close enough that they can even compete with foreign students who had the benefit of the superior public education systems of other First World countries.
________

Maybe in Germany, you have only the first group and not the second?

You're drawing a distinction that does not exist. Most of the homeschoolers I've seen are in both categories at once: both fundamentalists and well-educated and well meaning. My parents were. For this reason, most homeschoolers will give both religious and academic reasons for homeschooling. I think people on this board automatically think that fundamentalists are ignorant crazies. My parents weren't. My father's an engineer, my mother was trained as a nurse, and both put a huge amount of emphasis on the importance of education. I think there may be a bit too much stereotyping going on here.

I do agree that things may be different in Germany. If you have a really good public school system, the only reasons to homeschool are religious. Unlike the U.S., where there are both reasons.

[Simon_Jester]

Hmm. Maybe. I'll shut up on this issue; I don't think I'm qualified to have an opinion. Sorry if I gave offense.

[Liberty]

Three more notes for Serafina:
1. You're forgetting the sucky U.S. school system.
2. Homeschool parents get to give their children individual attention that they would not receive in public school.
3. Homeschooled children also learn from textbooks, DVDs, and online classes, not just through tutors. These resources are not always expensive, and are thus widely available.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Do you know any fundamentalist homeschoolers? They believe God has told them to homeschool.

Yes. They are insane (this is Ben Allen BTW. Had a long 'conversation' with your sister a while back via facebook) And just as we do not call it religious persecution when we pass laws making parents seek medical help for a sick or injured child, we ought not consider it religious persecution when we make them send their children to school.

A child has a right to an eduction just as much as they have the right to keep breathing. The parents do not have moral standing to take either of these away from them, it does not matter what their beliefs are.

The state does teach its values and what it feels is important in the public schools.

And what values would these be? That science and mathematics are important? That critical thinking is a valuable tool? Oh I know, sex education. Some values are not objective truths. What is an objective truth is that not providing decent sex education will harm children. I fail to see how a set of parents has the right to deny to their kids, regardless of their values.

It isn't always, but it can be, and often is.

Because the standardized tests that control college admittance only test on the things a reasonably well educated parent could manage to pass to their kids. Reading comprehension, grammar, and math up through geometry.

Is there a benefit to having involved parents? Sure. On the other hand upper level maths and sciences are beyond the reach of most home schoolers because the teachers in a public school each have specialized educations in those subjects and the have access to facilities and materials (like a chemistry lab) that a parent or even group of parents do not.

Now, I know Surlethe can do a pretty good job with the physical sciences, math, and philosophy. However you both are exceptions to the rule. The majority, if I remember my stats right, homeschool not because they want to provide more information to their children than a public school can, but rather in order to withhold it, and prevent their children from making their own decisions.

As a matter of policy it is better to make damn sure that there is a baseline level of education that children be required to receive, provided by a public school. If you think you can do better than trained teachers, by all means, supplement it with your own knowledge and involvement. But you are not most homeschoolers. Not even a large minority.

<snip stuff regarding siblings>they are also doing very well

I have talked to some of your family members. You may love them, but they are also more than slightly unbalanced and incapable of thinking critically.

Credentials: I'm currently writing my master's thesis at a public university. It's a local study of a homeschool community.

Just one? Is it a fundamentalist community or a secular one?

Yes, it happens.

More often than you are letting on.

When I was an undergrad I was forced to volunteer at a Homeschoolers convention. I saw the fruits of that particular social group, which was the largest association of homeschoolers in the state of arizona. I have not seen that many religious lunatics, bigots, and creationists in one place since I went to a Christian Dominionist church as a child.

I had no idea there were Christian Math books until then, and entire textbooks on flood geology.

That group, the members of which made up the majority of homeschoolers in the state, were definitely being denied an education.

If those kids do well in college, it is because they isolate themselves in the campus church community and study rather than learn a few of the "life lessons" that most college students learn. They create an insular community, and stay in it rather than actually be full members of society.

Yes, there are exceptions, but the point is that they're exceptions

No. They are not. 85% do it to shelter their children from the outside world, 72% in order to provide religious and moral instruction. (according to the DOE)

In other words, to deny their children an education and/or shelter them from the outside influences of the world outside their home environment.

Maybe the situation in the US is different because with the exception of a very few select institutions the US education system is rubbish (having been educated at a US public school for a year I can attest to that too), but the experience in Germany with homeschooling tends to be a bit different.

There is definitely much to be said about the pile of shit this our educational system. I have to teach the kids that go through it to university. Let me tell you, the homeschooled ones dont measure up compared to the public schooled ones... and the ones who went to school dont know what Σ means in math.

The homeschooled ones complain to the department when they learn about evolution.

I was homeschooled and I then got a full tuition scholarship and went to a public university and graduated with my BA with a 3.998 GPA (out of 4.0). My professors loved me because I was an ideal student. I am now nearly finished with my MA, and my GPA is currently 4.0. Clearly, being homeschooled worked for me.

Sample size of one family. Can you really generalize that to the entire community, given that in many cases they homeschool specifically to deny knowledge to their children.

Were you taught evolution at home? I am fairly certain I can guess the answer to that question.

Well, that works fine as long as the "good guys" are in charge of the state. What if the fundamentalists are? Or nazis? Or Communists? How do we balance the rights of the parents, the rights of the child, and the rights of the state? It's not an easy question.

Well obviously it is undesirable to have Nazis and Angry Communists in charge of schools. However one needs to weigh your options as they are. Not as they could be. In other words, whether or not it is more desirable for the State or the Parents to control curriculum depends entirely on who and what the State and Parents are.

As it stands, it is better to have impartial professionals deciding matters of education than parents, who are largely untrained in most if not all of the subjects they are supposedly trying to teach.

[Surlethe]

*snip*

You do realize that all these measures can also be taken if your child is in a public school?

Besides, a lot of questions need an person that is well educated in that particular subject to answer.
If you happen to know someone who is (or if you are it yourself), good for you.
But do you know experts in
-Two foreign languages
-Your first language
-Biology
-Physics
-Chemistry
-Mathematics
-Art
-Music
-Law
-Politics
-Sociology
-Psychology
-Economics
-History
-Geography

Does it take experts in these areas to teach elementary or middle school students (ages 5-14)?

I'm curious how much you know about the quality of the US educational system. Here are the schools in the county I grew up in, with student-teacher ratios. Here is a link to the statewide ISTEP test. Public high schools with teacher-student ratios are listed below:
Burris* -- 1:12
Cowan -- 1:16
Delta -- 1:18
IASMH** -- 1:9
Central -- 1:16
Southside -- 1:16
Daleville -- 1:16
Wes-Del -- 1:15
Wapahani -- 1:16
Yorktown -- 1:19

* Attached to local university; students chosen by lottery.
** Boarding school; by invitation only.

You can look up ISTP pass rates. The school I would have attended, Central, had 10th grade ISTEP passing rates in 2009: English, 58%; Math/Science, 54%. A brain-dead chipmunk could pass these tests. You get an idea of the school environments I want to keep my daughter out of.

Here is Indiana's high school diploma requirements. How do they stack up against German requirements?

[Surlethe]

I have talked to some of your family members. You may love them, but they are also more than slightly unbalanced and incapable of thinking critically.

I'm so glad you're able to make such broad judgments based on a couple of Facebook conversations.

There is definitely much to be said about the pile of shit this our educational system. I have to teach the kids that go through it to university. Let me tell you, the homeschooled ones dont measure up compared to the public schooled ones... and the ones who went to school dont know what Σ means in math.

The homeschooled ones complain to the department when they learn about evolution.

Are they deficient across the board, or are they deficient only in areas where they have ideological blinders? And how do we know you don't have a selection bias in (a) your memory or (b) the sample on which you make the judgment?

While we're trading anecdotes, let's talk about the idiots who are getting education degrees and being licensed to teach. I've dealt with some of them myself and I know people who tutored them; they don't even know how to deal with basic algebraic equations, let alone think abstractly enough to be considered "experts" in the fields they'll be teaching. I mean, any idiot can pick up elementary school math, but you'd hope that an elementary school teacher would understand how to solve 2x + 5 = 18.

[Liberty]

Do you know any fundamentalist homeschoolers? They believe God has told them to homeschool.

Yes. They are insane (this is Ben Allen BTW. Had a long 'conversation' with your sister a while back via facebook) And just as we do not call it religious persecution when we pass laws making parents seek medical help for a sick or injured child, we ought not consider it religious persecution when we make them send their children to school.

<snip stuff regarding siblings>they are also doing very well

I have talked to some of your family members. You may love them, but they are also more than slightly unbalanced and incapable of thinking critically.

Do you realize just how personal you have just made this? You just called my family "unbalanced" and "incapable of thinking critically." That is a load of crap. I was taught to think critically by my parents. Yes, it backfired on them. I simply can't believe you just said these things about my family. Would you please justify them? You do not know my family. Your only contact has been on facebook (if that) and brief. I want you to back up your statements right now or take them back.

A child has a right to an eduction just as much as they have the right to keep breathing. The parents do not have moral standing to take either of these away from them, it does not matter what their beliefs are.

As a matter of policy it is better to make damn sure that there is a baseline level of education that children be required to receive, provided by a public school.

Yes, children have a right to an baseline education. What you have not provided is reasons that such an education must be provided by a public school and a public school alone. Homeschool parents do educate their children. Notice that I am a fan of regulation, and think there should be more of it, to ensure that homeschool parents do do this.

It isn't always, but it can be, and often is.

Because the standardized tests that control college admittance only test on the things a reasonably well educated parent could manage to pass to their kids. Reading comprehension, grammar, and math up through geometry.

Then explain why homeschoolers do well in college in all areas, not just baseline information.

Credentials: I'm currently writing my master's thesis at a public university. It's a local study of a homeschool community.

Just one? Is it a fundamentalist community or a secular one?

Jeez, how much do you think I can do with a master's thesis? Most of the homeschoolers in this particular community (small city, midwest) are fundamentalists.

Yes, it happens.

More often than you are letting on.

When I was an undergrad I was forced to volunteer at a Homeschoolers convention. I saw the fruits of that particular social group, which was the largest association of homeschoolers in the state of arizona. I have not seen that many religious lunatics, bigots, and creationists in one place since I went to a Christian Dominionist church as a child.

I had no idea there were Christian Math books until then, and entire textbooks on flood geology.

That group, the members of which made up the majority of homeschoolers in the state, were definitely being denied an education.

If those kids do well in college, it is because they isolate themselves in the campus church community and study rather than learn a few of the "life lessons" that most college students learn. They create an insular community, and stay in it rather than actually be full members of society.

Proof of this? I was one of those children. I succeeded in college, and I did not isolate myself. Did you read the article I posted? Your comments make it sound like you did not.

Yes, there are exceptions, but the point is that they're exceptions

No. They are not. 85% do it to shelter their children from the outside world, 72% in order to provide religious and moral instruction. (according to the DOE)

In other words, to deny their children an education and/or shelter them from the outside influences of the world outside their home environment.

Did you even bother to read what the stats actually say before posting them?

"Parents were then asked which one of the applicable reasons they considered to be their most important reason for homeschooling—31 percent of homeschooled children had parents who cited concern about the environment of other schools, such as safety, drugs, or negative peer pressure, as the most important reason for homeschooling and 30 percent had parents who said the most important reason was to provide religious or moral instruction (table 4). While these were the two most common responses, another 16 percent of homeschooled students had parents who said dissatisfaction with the academic instruction available at other schools was their most important reason for homeschooling." When you added all those who mentioned concern over the environment of public schools, not just those who gave it as their primary reason, you arrive at 85%. Similarly, when you add all of those who mentioned religious or moral instruction, not just those who listed it as their primary reason, you arrive at 27%. I should point out that 68% also mention dissatisfaction with academic instruction.
And if I may add: the second category says religious or moral instruction. I've had homeschool parents who are atheists tell me that they homeschool in part to help their children develop healthy moral values. Also, concern over the environment includes things like drugs, teen pregnancy, school violence, etc, things that are actual concerns in America's schools, and not just to Christians.

I was homeschooled and I then got a full tuition scholarship and went to a public university and graduated with my BA with a 3.998 GPA (out of 4.0). My professors loved me because I was an ideal student. I am now nearly finished with my MA, and my GPA is currently 4.0. Clearly, being homeschooled worked for me.

Sample size of one family. Can you really generalize that to the entire community, given that in many cases they homeschool specifically to deny knowledge to their children.

Were you taught evolution at home? I am fairly certain I can guess the answer to that question.

I was indeed taught about evolution. I was told that it was wrong, but I did know what it was and in general how it worked. And I have many friends who were also homeschooled and also went to college. One is at MIT on scholarship.

I'm really not seeing what you mean about "denying knowledge" to their children. My parents didn't teach me sex ed very well, and when I told them that when I was in college they decided to change things with the younger ones and now teach them using specific books, etc. Otherwise, I learned pretty much everything. What knowledge are you talking about? The ability to drink? Smoke? Do drugs? Cheat on tests? Slam the door?

As it stands, it is better to have impartial professionals deciding matters of education than parents, who are largely untrained in most if not all of the subjects they are supposedly trying to teach.

My only concern here is that it can lead in a dangerous direction. I would rather not have "impartial professionals" telling me what I can and cannot do with my children. How far does this go? Whose children are they - mine or the state's? And maybe we differ there.

[Thanas]

Did you miss that I was homeschooled?

I heard that anecdotes are perfectly great evidence and totally outweigh what every professional educator has told me. I know personally over 200 teachers and they all confirm the same damm thing, and I also have worked first hand in a school department tackling those questions.

The point is not that homeschoolers may not succeed. Nobody has claimed homeschool = automatic failure in education. The point is that decent public schools provide a far better chance at success without denying education.

As you are so fond of using your family as a baseline, where you tought extensive sex education, evolution and critical religious thinking?

Did you interact with over 20-40 children any given day?

If the answer to any of those questions are no, homeschooling is not an adequate answer.

*snip article*

Alyrium dealt with that and I can only confirm what he said through first-hand experience.

I support homeschool regulations, of course. While homeschooling can, and in many cases, does, work, there are failures as well. And thus, it should be regulated. Homeschool parents who fail at educating their children should be required to put their children in school. But regulated - not shut down completely.

Why not? If there is a decent public school system, why should homeschooling be trusted or allowed?

You are blatantly wrong. The whole purpose of their homeschooling is to deny them knowledge about history, sex, religious criticism, atheism, evolution, science and every thing else that denies the bible.

Then we need to have a conversation about what constitutes as "educating" your children. We can require parents to use certified textbooks and have homeschooled children be tested each year. Simply dismissing the idea of homeschooling because this particular family is fundamentalist is flawed.

The only people who homeschool in germany are religious fundamentalists or libertarian nutcases.

And this is a tricky issue. Should parents be allowed to teach their children anything they want? In the U.S. they are. It's called "parental rights."

Oh, I guess Germany does not have those, right?

Here is the Grundgesetz for you:

Article 6. - (Family)
( 1 ) Marriage and family enjoy the special protection of the state.
( 2 ) Care and upbringing of children are the natural right of the parents and a duty primarily incumbent on them. The state watches over the performance of this duty.
( 3 ) Separation of children from the family against the will of the persons entitled to bring them up may take place only pursuant to a law, if those so entitled fail in their duty or if the children are otherwise threatened with neglect. *snip rest*

Article 7 (Education).
(1) The entire education system is under the supervision of the state.
(2) The persons entitled to bring up a child have the right to decide whether they shall receive religious instruction.
(3) Religious instruction forms part of the ordinary curriculum in state and municipal schools, excepting secular schools. Without prejudice to the state's right of supervision, religious instruction is given in accordance with the tenets of the religious communities. No teacher may be obliged against his will to give religious instruction.
(4) The right to establish private schools is guaranteed. Private schools as a substitute for state or municipal schools, require the approval of the state and are subject to the laws of the Laender. This approval must be given if private schools are not inferior to the state or municipal schools in their educational aims, their facilities and the professional training of their teaching staff, and if a segregation of the pupils according to the means of the parents is not promoted. This approval must be withheld if the economic and legal position of the teaching staff is not sufficiently assured.

What is so unreasonable about this? Parents have a duty, which basically boils down to giving them the same chance every other child would have. The homeschoolers presented in the article clearly do not.

You would prefer to require that children be taught certain things, things the state determines they should be taught, and the parents have no option. Well, that works fine as long as the "good guys" are in charge of the state. What if the fundamentalists are? Or nazis? Or Communists?

OH NOEZ.

Seriously, what is this? Do you deny that every child should be taught about evolution, critical thinking, sex education and the sciences? Your argument is no argument at all, because for it to be valid, there must be a chance of fundamentalists, nazis or communists gaining power in Germany. Do you really think there is such a chance?

Admittedly, the USA, with its great parental rights, did not have just one, but three decades where religious fundamentalists were in power or wielded enormous public influence. I can therefore just as well make the argument that homeschooling does increase fundamentalism, which can actually be backed up by evidence (see ADs post for that).

How do we balance the rights of the parents, the rights of the child, and the rights of the state? It's not an easy question.

It is to me. We set a standard that every child is to be given the same chances at an education. THe rights of the child to such an education and to a normal social life trumps the right of the parent to deny his child those very same things due to both moral and practical reasons (after all, a well-educated child is a net benefit to society and we need those for society to continue to live on).

My point is that homeschoolers can, and do, succeed. It was inferred that they do not.

By whom? In case you missed it, the point is not whether homeschoolers succeed, the point is how they measure up to others.

I would propose having parents register with the state their intent to homeschool, and submit their curricular plans for the year for approval. I would then have the students tested at the end of each school year (at a public school) and would use the question of whether the students improve academically to determine whether the parents are allowed to continue homeschooling. If the children do not improve academically from one year to the next, they should not be allowed to continue homeschooling. I would also be in favor of annual visits from a social worker to ensure that the children are developing socially as well as academically.

Having worked in a social department, I can assure you that those requirements are far too little. The only way to truly measure that process is to monitor the vast majority of sessions and one cannot do that.

You could also mandate that the children attend a sex education seminar of some sort at the school. You could test their knowledge of evolution in the yearly testing, thus ensuring that they have to learn it or fail the test and cease homeschooling.

Yeah, and then the fundies will tell them "now, children, here is what you have to say to the devil worshippers in order to pass the test, but remember, those are just lies".

You're drawing a distinction that does not exist. Most of the homeschoolers I've seen are in both categories at once: both fundamentalists and well-educated and well meaning. My parents were. For this reason, most homeschoolers will give both religious and academic reasons for homeschooling. I think people on this board automatically think that fundamentalists are ignorant crazies. My parents weren't. My father's an engineer, my mother was trained as a nurse, and both put a huge amount of emphasis on the importance of education. I think there may be a bit too much stereotyping going on here.

I do agree that things may be different in Germany. If you have a really good public school system, the only reasons to homeschool are religious. Unlike the U.S., where there are both reasons.

Do these good people teach you about evolution, sex education, how to critizise religious fundamentalism? If not, you have no case.

Here is Indiana's high school diploma requirements. How do they stack up against German requirements?

*dissolves in laughter* That would be enough to barely pass the lowest form of school in Germany. You would not even be allowed to study at a second-tier university with that. In fact, with those requirements, you would not even be taken for vocational training, like being a plumber or bricklayer.

Seriously, only Algebra II? No calculus required? Only Biology and chemistry and physics I? No foreign language requirement?

Let me give you an example of what is considered an adequate education for the lowest form of school in germany (i.e. those whose students are considered to be the dumbest 10% of the population):

- 9/10 years of German
- 9/10 years of Math
- four years of english
- 2 years of biology
- 2 years of chemistry
- 2 years of physics
- eight years of history/politics/social sciences
- eight years of PE
- four years of fine arts

Like I said, these are the dumbest. Now, contrast this with my curriculum, whis is from one of the top schools:

- 13 years of German
- 13 years of Math
- 6 years of Latin
- 4 years of French (1 year elective)
- 9 years of english
- 2 years of Spanish (elective)
- 2 years of Italian (elective)
- 6 years of history (1 elective)
- 3 years of politics
- 4 years of social sciences
- 4 years of music
- 4 years of art
- 8 years of biology (3 elective)
- 6 years of chemistry (1 elective)
- 5 years of physics
- 13 years of PE, including being trained how to swim, dance, fight
- 5 years of elective club activities
- 2(or 3?) month period of working in an actual job

Passing grades required in all but one subject (two if you have good grades in the rest) every single year. Otherwise, one has to repeat the whole year.

Now, admittedly, this is not directly comparable because schools are structured differently here (one only has up to five hours a week a subject, with the majority being two-hour subjects).

However, the German top schools score highest when compared to international tests and everyone whoever went to an American public school (as I did) for a year came back and said how easy and stupid it was over there.

[Surlethe]

*dissolves in laughter* That would be enough to barely pass the lowest form of school in Germany. You would not even be allowed to study at a second-tier university with that. In fact, with those requirements, you would not even be taken for vocational training, like being a plumber or bricklayer.

If you were to live in the US, and you could only send your kids to schools which taught toward this diploma, would you and your wife prefer to homeschool them or send them to a public school? (Assume private schools are too expensive for you and you're not in a position to move to another country.)

(Remember, that diploma is the Core 40; there's a less stringent diploma available if you don't make the cut. And many students don't make the cut anyway; dropout rates are often non-negligible [Central, the school I mentioned above, had a 90% graduation rate last year], and often half the students fail the ISTEP exam.)

[Liberty]

To clarify my position:

If there was a good school system in the U.S., like it sounds like there is in Germany, I would be okay with doing away with homeschooling.

In the United States, many homeschoolers do succeed academically and socially, especially in comparison to their peers. The first page of this thread was essentially a big "laugh at how dumb homeschoolers are" fest. That is what I was trying to correct.

I was taught about evolution and I was taught to think critically, but I was not given good sex education. I had contact with at least 20-40 children (Thanas's question) three days a week. I do not believe, though, that children somehow psychologically need contact with at least 20-40 children every day, as Thanas inferred. One thing that is interesting about homeschooled students is that they learn to socialize with people older and younger than them, in addition to people their age. While your average public schooled twelve-year-old might refuse to play with a five-year-old, your average homeschooler would include the smaller child.

To Thanas: I know you say you've had a lot of contact with homeschool families (which is confusing given that I've seen it reported that there are only 500 homeschooled children in Germany). However, I would argue that the situation in the U.S. is appreciably different from that in Germany. For instance, in the U.S. there are homeschool groups, co-ops, and classes, while there aren't in Germany (at least, I would think that there probably aren't, given the small number of homeschoolers and the fact that they are in effect hiding from the state). Homeschoolers are socialized and involved in a wide variety of activities. So, I would guess that your experience with German homeschoolers wouldn't hold true of U.S. homeschoolers just as my experience with U.S. homeschoolers wouldn't hold true of German homeschoolers. If you disagree, please explain.

[Serafina]

*snip*

You do realize that all these measures can also be taken if your child is in a public school?

Besides, a lot of questions need an person that is well educated in that particular subject to answer.
If you happen to know someone who is (or if you are it yourself), good for you.
But do you know experts in
-Two foreign languages
-Your first language
-Biology
-Physics
-Chemistry
-Mathematics
-Art
-Music
-Law
-Politics
-Sociology
-Psychology
-Economics
-History
-Geography

Does it take experts in these areas to teach elementary or middle school students (ages 5-14)?

Well, i imagine you can give the basics with a normal education - but what about the next four grades (which we have in Germany)

I'm curious how much you know about the quality of the US educational system.

Admittedly, not much.
However, this thread is still about two homeschoolers from Germany, so i think the quality of the german school sytem is at least as important.

Ok, first, the basics about Germanys public school system:

Students normally start at age 7, but you can start a year earlier or later.
From 1st to 4th Grade (age 7-10), all students are in the Grundschule ("basic school").
After that, they get seperated.
Depending on their grades, they can got to one of thee forms of school: Hauptschule, Realschule und Gymnasium.

The Hauptschule is for grades 5-9 (11-15). The graduation from it is only sufficient for the most basic jobs, it is, admiteltly, a very bad form of school.
You learn only one foreign language (english) and mostly basic mathematics etc. - not much physics etc. (the basics of mechanics, elecricity etc.)
You can, however, add another year to that, which gives you a decent graduation.

The Realschule goes from grade 5-10 (11-16). The graduation is regarded sufficient for most non-academic jobs.
You only learn one foreign language, but you get a decent education about a lot of stuff (pretty much everything i listed above).

The Gymnasium is the most advanced kind of school and goes until grade 12 (age 18).
You learn two or three foreign languages (english and latin/french/italian/various others depending on school).
You get a detailed education about everything i listed above.
Students are expected to write papers (not with the same standards as scientific papers, but in a similar style) for all the courses they are graduating in.
The graduation (Abitur) is the entry standard for our Universities (College).

As a rough example, the graduation in mathematics includes calculus, stochastics, matrices and various other things on a similar level.
In Physics, profound knowledge about elecrotmagnetism, relativity, nuclear physics, quantum mechanics (no idea how sophisticed the knowledge required here is) and various other stuff is required.
This goes on for all other courses, and you are required to take several of them (at least 5 IIRC) for your graduation.
And you are required to write scientific papers for all of them (granted, the standards are not that high - you only need a bit of original research etc.)
Source 1
Source 2

Anyway, there are also various ways to add to that education.
Even with the lowest graduation you will propably go to a Berufschule (which you attend during your appreniceship).
There are also Fachoberschulen which teach specific knowledge about a certain field (Arts, Psychology/Pedagogics, Economics, Law, Economics) - those can be attended with a Realsschulabschluss. Those also qualify you for the Univesities.
There is more, but i guess you get the picture.


Now, back to my point:
Can you keep up to that as a parent? Can others keep up to that?
Frankly, i do not think that they can - some may manage to, but those are the exceptions, and they propably still lag behind.
And if you truly feel that the public school system is lacking - why not teach your kid in addition to it, rather than trying to do all that on your own?

[Broomstick]

It's Appalachia, good ol' mountain folk who are uneducated, backward, and like it that way. Half the people don't listen to radio and don't watch TV, deliberately cutting themselves off from the world - well, except for satellite TV, but they limit their channels to sports and religion (one of my in-laws tried to sell me a box that does that, assured me it was compatible with whatever service I used). Still a high percentage of genuine illiterates, and I've got in-laws who don't even own their own copy of the Bible, there are NO books, NO magazines, NO newspapers in their homes.

How do they entertain themselves without much television and no reading material? I assume video games are off-limits, too, so what do they do with their free time? Get drunk and watch what little programming they do get?

Well, in no particular order, from what I've seen entertainments include church (some of these folks go nearly every day), malicious gossip (women), getting drunk, smoking dope, other drugs, making moonshine, making other drugs, fighting (men), housework (women), fixing things until they break (men), cooking/baking/canning (women), and fucking (men and women - no queers or queer stuff allowed)

[Surlethe]

Well, i imagine you can give the basics with a normal education - but what about the next four grades (which we have in Germany)

We have them as well in the US. High school is where I start to question parents' abilities to administer a quality education; at this point, most homeschool parents need to rely on curricula and co-ops instead of being able to augment with their native knowledge. In our case in particular, I am most worried about modern foreign-languages (together we pretty much cover all the bases except English and Art, and anyone can do those two).

On the German school system, I am fucking jealous. Given the test scores and the education (which sounds superb), nobody in Germany has any business missing out on that, let alone for religious reasons.

Maybe more later.

[Serafina]

I was taught about evolution and I was taught to think critically, but I was not given good sex education. I had contact with at least 20-40 children (Thanas's question) three days a week. I do not believe, though, that children somehow psychologically need contact with at least 20-40 children every day, as Thanas inferred. One thing that is interesting about homeschooled students is that they learn to socialize with people older and younger than them, in addition to people their age. While your average public schooled twelve-year-old might refuse to play with a five-year-old, your average homeschooler would include the smaller child.

And you do not think that the public student does not play with the five-year old because he does not have too - after all, he has a great number of equal-aged peers.

However, i think you are generalizing here - both homeschoold and public students can develop a wide range of social skills. AFter all, there is more to live than school.
However, the public student has a regular, non-voluntarily experience with a large group of people.
Really, i have seen teenagers (in my last school) who came from a school with very small, likeminded, stable classes. They gnerally failed to integrate them into their respective class, and it did not get better when we started going to our actual workplaces (we had about 50:50 of real-life work experience and school). They could do it, but it was mostly new terrain for them.

That's what these children will be missing. They do not learn how to deal with people who are different than them (no matter in what respect), who dislike them, who bully them, how large groups break into subgroups and how they interact and so on. They may get some pieces of this experience somewhere, but don't tell me that this is the same as a decade of experience.