Tyranids vs the Galactic Empire

[Murazor]

That would be a problem if a) the empires FTL speed was not several thousand times faster and b) if the Tyranids were shielded against FTL sensors, which they are not. And then once again it comes down to resource atrition.

Concerning b) -since I have never challenged the higher speed of hyperspace-, what was the range of the faster than light sensors? I never managed to find anything that quantified that with any degree of accuracy.

[Thanas]

FTL sensors at least allow ships to hit each other when fired from other systems than the target is in. So we know targeting works at least that far - which means the Empire can casually destroy the nids with long-range fire.

You might also want to read this.

[Connor MacLeod]

Communication via FTL signals should not be such a problem, after all Thrawn could direct whole fleets while having his shields up. Continuous holo projection seems a problem, yes, but simple FTL signals? Probably not, especially if you have communicator stations near the end of the system which can turn normal signals received by a planet into FTL signals. If those stations fall, the empire would know what was up.

Thrawn couldn't direct fleets via FTL - that was one of the underlyting issues with the whole Thrawn Trilogy (and one of the reasons he grabbed C'baoth - to coordinate fleets across multiple light years). They make explicit mention in HTTE that subspace signals can't punch through deflectors normally. And the Prequel ICSes make it clear that hyperwave is blocked by shielding, if Dark Empire weren't enough of an example. The only kinds of signals that breach shields seem tob e standard comms, and they're quite short ranged.

And yes taking out relays would eventually warn the Empire, but that depends alot on how their security is arranged and how often reporting is handled. FTL signals, particularily hyperwave, are VERY energy intensive (so much so that stellar scale power is specified as a particular requirement.)

And turbolasers make massing in one area to crush a generator via KE a bit of a bad idea.

They can only fire if they open up gaps in the shield to do so, which could be from a fraction of a second to several seconds if we go by just the single ion cannon example from TESB.

Holotransmissions actually. The emperor was watching live holonet feeds. And of course we have instances of SW ships firing and hitting targets outside a star system. This long-range fire would be devestating to the nids until they find a way to get FTL jamming.

Those examples, Rebel Dream and implied in TESB, largely relied upon hitting predictable targets (stationary in TESB, and an orbiting worldship in Rebel Dream). It wouldn't be impossible to do that with conventional sensors, and if they used FTL sensors in those examples for targeting it would have given them away. Besides which, any beam which you fire beyond a few million km is bound to miss simply by the fact that a ship will be able to move out of the way or dodge.

Agreed. Though admittedly, from what we have seen, some sort of screening is standard procedure for ships anyway (in every EU novel I know there is at least some custom inspection), so depending on how easy the modifications are going to be detected it might not be that much of a problem.

To an extent, but I dont think they're that tight. Otherwise Luke and et al wouldn't have been able to smuggle onto the planet in Coruscant.. hell the whole eixstence of Black Sun on Coruscant argues that its not impossible. Even if it just amounts to rampant bribery.

I doubt that. Note how quickly they used the clones at a time when Palpatine had less power than he has now? There was nary a voice of protest because there was a clearly defined threat. So if we see the Tyranids devour a planet (planetary extinction being one of the things SW mindset apparently still cares about) then IMO we do have such a threat, especially when the first sector fleets get destroyed.

The clone example would technically prove my point, since they're leaping on a ready made army, but one that requires a DECADE to produce viable troops, from a single planet. We're not talking the most effective method here. Whereas there are quadrillions of people in the galaxy, and you can train someone to military standard well within a year I imagine. And I'm not even touching on the fact they never once considered a droid army of their own (all that industiral potential and clones were the better option? come on!)

I'm not really sure the "less power" thing applies, or makes all that much a diff between then and now, since we see in rOTS that the GE is the Republic under a new name. And the OT era Palpy, despite the advances he'd made in hamstringing the Senate and increasing the military, apparently needed a Death STar to hold over people's heads to get what he needed done in any practical manner since the whole "nebulous external and internal threats" bit had worn thin in the intervening decades. Otherwise why not buidl up his own droid armies rather than a Death Star?

Alot of this hinges on the ease or difficulty with which the GE's forces handle the Tyranid threat, not just "planetary" extinction, since BDZ style attacks (nevermind 'lesser' stuff like just rendering a planet uninhabitable or nearly so) arent' all that infrequent and most people on a galactic scale don't give a shit as long as its nooone important. CAamas for example drew lots and lots of attention, but "lesser" worlds like Emberlene or Separatist holdouts weren't given a fuck about. It seems to be the equivalent to the US bombing the shit out of other countries - most Americans realize it but they don't always care (or in the more perverse cases, cheer it on.)

If the GE has little problems handling individual hive fleets (and this is a reaosnable possibility) they may not see a need to suddenly and explosively mobilize huge clone armies and droid forces. Even if outer Rim planets get chomped, that doesn't guarnatee (for example) the Core will give a shit (since they have a huge chunk of the fleet and all those fancy planetary defenses guarding them.) The Core WAS rather complacent in much of the Clone Wars too, as I recall.

I don't know how, but this does not seem to affect Star Wars vegetation much. It seems to be a non-issue, for we know that the most heavily fortified planet in the whole SW galaxy, Anaxes, has also one of the most beautiful fauna.

Do they keep the shields on 24/7? Even if they do that doesnt neccesarily mean much, since many of the the examples of shields we have in the movies have them essentially transparent (or able to be made transparent, as in Anakin's Naboo starfighter) to visible light, so they may just configure them to allow that. It still doesn't mean they don't have to organize things to deal with these kinds of problems.

Still, the possibility of an attack is greatly lessened in the core, for the number of fortress worlds etc. are just too many. One apparently cannot stage a massive attack straight towards important planets, as we see with the rebel alliance campaign towards Coruscant. So it is not as if the thread would shutdown production.

I doubt the Tyranids will just plow in towards the Core, at least not right awy. They have demonstrated the ability to attack worlds "at random" (or appear to) but by and large their advances tend to be fairly steady and methodical across a wide front.

Yes, but the situations are not comparable. Generally, the Atlas blames the disintegration of the empire on the fortress strategy - since there was a lack of available strategical forces, the rebels could pick off the core one-by-one,. However, the real damage was that this allowed individual moffs to have their own little fiefdoms and they broke away en masse.

Thrawn used the stateless strategy by launching raids at everything and everywhere and used this in combination with political advantages to lure neutrals over to his side. Thrawn managed to neutralize Coruscant via his asteroids, and the new republic fleet was overstretched and could not stop him.

Well I wasnt trying to say they were comparable, I was just noting tht the Atlas notes that a "stateless" force has an advantage of sorts against one that isn't. It isn't neccearily an insurmountable one since there are alwys other factors invovled.

Yes, but that still does not mean that they would not be used fairly quick in an outright war.

If they chose to, yes. That is part of the problem. We have countless cases we can draw on from various sources where despite such technology arguably being available, they never choose to use it even when usch a force is as ta colossal strategic and military disadvantage. The Rebels never used droids or clones, the Warlords certainly didn't. None of the random "threats to the galaxy" ever revoled around that sort of threat (the closest being "Planet of twilight" and that relied on magic force sensitive living crystals) Not even during the Vong war.

Indeed, whenever we do see it, or even anything vaguely resembling that, its often done in secret, is treated/regarded as a superweapon (including the requisite horror that such would use it - Thrawn's use of clones for example) and often is restricted or outright illegal (Cloning being illegal as outlined in the Bounty Hunter Trilogy, or Thrawn needing to locate some super secret cloning facility to outline his plans.)

We can't say its lost tech cuz most of it isn't, but there have to be some very very good (or irrational) reasons why they don't use it casually or even in most cases where it would be more effective or important. I mean we're talking about a fact that actually saving individual (non clone, non droid) human lives is deemed less important than the use of this tech. They would not only have to be facing annihilation, but actually acknowledge and face it in a real, permanant manner. AT the minimum, I would not expect it to be used unless the 'Nids got close to the Core or an attack on the Core became a real, tangible threat. And even then I expect them to be selfih selfish fucks rather than practical, to be honest.

That is in fact why the 'Nids have any real chance at all. Despite having all these collosal tech advantages, its note guaranteed SW would neccesarily employ them in the most effective or efficient manner right off the bat, or even in any short term.

I think you overestimate the power of the people and public opinion. Those are the same core-worlders who believed the alliance would eat children and rape their girls. The Imperial propaganda will have a field day with people-eating reptilians.

I am not doubting the abilities of Imperial propoganda, nor the fact that the knowledge the 'Nids consume planets would not have an impact on them. What I am saying is that its not guaranteed to get them thinking "intelligently" on how to deal with it, especially if its happening to "those filthy outer rim scum thousands of light years away" I mean lets face it, I've basically acknowledged tha tthe Core has little to fear from a single Hive Fleet, right? That's not going to give them much incentive to worry. Billions of hive ships might be a different story, but then again that dramatic a change in numbers would also change things for the 'Nids rather sharply too.

Or it might be that this is the best they can do and they are just not that good with resource usage after all. Or they might need that much to keep the swarm alive, which would also mean they cannot devote a lot to resource gathering. Actually, as they are biological beings, it would make sense that there is not that much excess energy left for reproduction etc.

It could be, but we don't know. We dont konw the exact means of power generation (oterht han it involves technobabble plasma, but that says nothing) so I dont know how/where they draw energy from, how their "reproduction" works (near as I can tell its maybe more akin to technobabble cloning than human style reproduction). They seem to copycat the Vong style "make an organic analogue to technological ones" in that you have organic "guns" (that are actually held) organic swords, whatnot, although in some cases they don't push it as far as the vong (some of the Vong "analogues" to sensors or computer displays were outright retarded and the 'Nids don't have that.) Ships can self-repair/regenerate (both through healing themselves as well as having biological entities in the ship specialized for "repair" purposes like repair bots) so both of those would naturally involve resources, but what little indications I have seen at lest suggest they are rather efficient in their use of material - they don't even leave microbes or bacteiral life behind when they leave a planet, and I can't recall any obvious mentions of large amounts of biological waste being ejected or dumped into space or otherwise disposed of. They always recycle the corpses of their dead and the dead of others, and it seems to be pretty damn efficient in doing so.
It could even just be simple conservation for some future threat or requirement. Or, given the 5th edition Codex, they might be stocking up against whatever speculated threat chased them out of the last galaxy.

The only and best explanation I can think of is that they just send the material somewhere else to be used in a different manner. We don't know in 40K how they use it, but I dont think that would affect SW discussions any. Any more than we might worry about how allocating DS scale resources might impact some part of the galaxy, even if its a small part (and to be blunt similar arguments abou tthe 'Nids could be made about the Empire, as I already alluded.)

So far, I think the general concept of them is not that consistent.

In some ways honestly its more consistent than it is with the Imperials. I've had far more headaches trying to deal with why the STar Wars galaxy hasn't bombed itself back into the stone age than I have in figuring out the 'Nids. Or the Imperium for that matter. SW canon sometimes seems dead set on fucking itself over deliberately.

Sure. Then again, he probably will not place himself on the frontlines like he did at Endor.

Probably not. But he doesnt have to place himself in the frontlines to mess things up. The way he organized the Empire to function without him is a prime example I think. not that I think assasinating him is neccsearily going to happen, I'm just pointing out he doesn't always think practically either. It's more likely he'd think in terms of "What this threat may benefit me" more than "what this threat may benefit the Empire" and he's already demonstrated once he'll let the galaxy go to hell if it suits his purposes.

Again, its not a game winner for the Tyranids since they can adopt strategies like the "Core fortress worlds and fuck off the Rim", but its hardly an ideal strategy and it plays to the 'Nids benefit.

They don't really try to gain footholds . They're more like a sort of inter-galactic horde of locusts. THey sweep along in hordes athroughout the galaxy consuming what is available and then moving on. They no more try to "hold" territory than the locusts try to hold a field.

And then we go back to nid resource management and their production power vs the core planets. Anyway, here goes my argument for Imperial production:

The empire (or the galaxy, depends on how you interpret the atlas) has, according to the new atlas, a billion inhabited systems, of which 69 million have imperial representation and of which 1.75 million are full member worlds. That means that every Imperial member world has roughly 500 inhabited systems attached. Or if you want to take it every Imperial member world has at least 30 worlds attached.

Let us assume that each of those systems represented can equip one ISD each year without resorting to total mobilization. This is not too hard to imagine - we earthers could built more and we would not qualify for more than a rim world most likely. So that gives us ~ 70 million ISDs.

Let us assume that 2/3 of the full member worlds are in the core. Given the bias against the rim, it is not so very strange to assume that only core planets would qualify as full member worlds. If we then use the standard core population rate of an average of 10-100 billion people (let us take 10 billion people as lower limit though of course given that there are quit e alot of 500 billion average sectors it will be certainly at least triple that) then that leaves us with ~ 10.000.000.000.000.000 people at a minimum. If we assume that 1 billion people can produce one star destroyer per year without resorting to mobilization (again, not an unreasonable assumption and most likely a lower end) we can then conclude that the empire, without resorting to total mobilization, can produce and crew 10.070.000.000 Star Destroyers a year.

Again, very low numbers. It gets even worse for the Tyranids if we even assume that each core world can field a battlegroup the size of Death Squadron (not a bad assumption, I think).
If we assume that with mobilization, each billion of coreworlders can build ship volume comparable to 1 SSD in a year - well, it gets even worse.

Heck, we know that with mobilization, even rim worlds could built several ISDs. For example, Harrsk built 12 ISDs in a single system (though admittedly, the extent of his territory is unknown).

That fits in with whatever I knwo from various standpoints (resources, economy, etc.) That could ignore some problems, I know Ender has done alot of work into the logistical considerations of running huge navies and fleets (including costs) and he highlighted some problems but I dont recall the exact details.

Resource wise, the 'Nids take about 1e21 kg or so of Resources from an Earthlike planet (give or take an OoM either way). If we assume they can only use oh... 1/10,000 of tht for construction purposes, and that the rest of it goes to fleet maintenance and is totally wasted (which I find hard to credit) you're talking 1e17 kg of material per planet. Assuming 1 million tons per ship, thats 1e8 ships. Not as impressive as your numbers, but thats for a single planet taken too. If they take a few dozen inhabited worlds out on the Rim (which isn't inconceivable) of an Earthlike nature, that's easily going to be many billions of ships alone. And if we assume a lower efficiency grade.. well..

It goes both ways, and if we start factoring in tactical or combat possibilities (EG hyperspace missile tactics) I could think of similar for the 'Nids.

Whether the nids can use the force or whether they can integrate force users. The Vong, for example, people not indigenous to the galaxy, could not be seen by the Jedi or use Jedi powers themselves, though I cannot remember if that was the cause. What I am saying is that it is not certain that the nids can just use the force.

The Vong were originally force sensitive, and were later cut off from it int he aftermath of the devastation taht forced them to leave their galaxy. Their original homeworld was like Zonoma Sekot that magically force sensitive super planet.

Its doubtful the 'Nids themselves would be force sensitive in the least, but there's enough ways they could tap it. Even if for some reason asboring a force sensitive didn't do it, there's organic tech that requires tapping the force (Darkstryder technology being the big one, but Vong tech itself is evidently force based and could confer force powers on those implanted with it.)

The current "interpretation" of that Midichlorian nonsense seems to suggest that it somehow faciliates connection with the Force, so if true that might also allow the possibility.

I cannot remember the exact description, but iirc it dissolved Vong in time, so probably a nanotech weapon. However, it could also mutate and was airborne, so that speaks to a regular bioweapon.

Seems to be a virus. If it is its probably microscopic not nanoscopic (not the first time SW misuses terminology either) - if its a regular bioweapon it quite probably could, cuz it sounds like it might be akin to 40K virus bombs.

Nanotech weapons might work though (like the Nano destroyers used on Mon Mothma.)

[Connor MacLeod]

That would be a problem if a) the empires FTL speed was not several thousand times faster

going by what we know, its possible it could be faster depending on method since it seems to depend on a number of qualities. Even if it is slower, the Narvahl method involves using some rather collosal, and violent gravitic fuckery to get to a planet (enough so they can cause quakes and solar flares potentially) which aside from the problems it causes on the planets, may very well act like an interdiction field to prevent people from getting anywhere near it. After all, a system-wide itnerdiciton field that isn't strong neough to noticably fuck things dramatically in-system appears enough to cut off that system (Centerpoint's interdiction field.)

If its warp travel then the situations in the SW galaxy are likely to differ than in 40K (less turbulent warp for one thing - that can make a HUGE difference with regards to speed and accuracy.)

and b) if the Tyranids were shielded against FTL sensors, which they are not. And then once again it comes down to resource atrition.

They aren't innately shielded no, but I already pointed out that its not impossible for them to be blocked. And to work as an active sensor they have to interact with inert matter (and basically reflect off it) - so its arguably not impossible to engineer some means to "absorb" them better. (not easy mind, just not impossible.)

[NecronLord]

That would be a problem if a) the empires FTL speed was not several thousand times faster

going by what we know, its possible it could be faster depending on method since it seems to depend on a number of qualities. Even if it is slower, the Narvahl method involves using some rather collosal, and violent gravitic fuckery to get to a planet (enough so they can cause quakes and solar flares potentially) which aside from the problems it causes on the planets, may very well act like an interdiction field to prevent people from getting anywhere near it. After all, a system-wide itnerdiciton field that isn't strong neough to noticably fuck things dramatically in-system appears enough to cut off that system (Centerpoint's interdiction field.)

You know, that's actually a very fine point, and would make a good story element.

[PainRack]

First, I'll concede that yes you did mention SW warships, and I was wrong to bring up civilian craft. That said, it only changes the subject of your argument, not the argument itself. You claimed the Falcon represents the usual hyperspace speeds for warships in Star Wars, despite the fact I pointed out that while it IS possible, it could be highly conditional since we know tradeoffs in speed and velocity exists, and not all warships DO use fast hyperdrives (ISD's drives are slower than VSD for example.) If this somehow ALSO does ont represent your argument then something is getting mixed up here.

I need to repeat my post again
So? There is no indication that for longer distances, the Imperium speed is on par with hyperdrive.
While Maul, Anakin/Obiwan and Yoda speeds may be taken as outlier, why should the Falcon be regarded as such? Because she's a smuggler ship?
Han was BROKE and massively in debt. Despite the Falcon speed records, there is no reason to assume that any well designed military craft built for speed could not achieve the same.
Its all in there.
1. There is no indication that for long distances, Imperium warpdrive is on par with hyperdrive. Again, Sanctuarary 101 took the Sister one year in her time, 6 years in real time.
2. While one may be able to argue that Maul, Anakin/Obiwan and Yoda hyperspace speeds are outlier examples, there should be no reason to argue that the Falcon speed records should be taken as an outlier for , I repeat, well designed military craft built for speed.

And the entire CRUX of the matter is not GE warships being able to achieve the same speeds of the Falcon, but rather, the speed of hyperdrive for SW warships compared to the Imperium.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that compared to the Imperium, SW hyperdrive is slower for long journeys. Its only for relatively short transits that the Imperium gains remote parity.
The consequences of this for a conflict against the Tyrannids should be obvious. And since we're discussing the GE vs the Nids as opposed to the Republic vs the Nids, we won't even need to discuss the issues of short range hyperspace craft discussed in AOTC ICS.

You missed on page 8 where I replied to Simon Jester at the top of the screen, noting that the Core Worlds are likely already heavily fortified and only hit and run attacks would work against it. The bulk of the discussion past that point up to where you chimed in dealt around the idea of trying to fortfiy worlds in order to DENY them resources, unless they decided to simply blast large portions of the Outer Rim into lifeless rocks in order to deny resources. Neither option is going to be a simple one to carry out for the Empire, and certainly not without repercussions. Where you got this idea that I was trying to argue the Tyranids would be launching solo hit and run attacks on the Core Worlds, when I already pointed out they would NEED massive hive fleets to even begin assualting the Core, is beyond me.

conceded.

I don't suppose it occured to you that if they could detect objects in realspace FTL, from hyperspace, Interdictors wouldn't fool them?

Excuse me, I believe the point of contention is whether gravitic sensors are FTL here?
The ability to detect mass shadows in hyperspace is proof inconclusive of this. Detecting real objects using FTL gravitic sensors is supported BY the sernipdal example, not this.

Hell that problem already exists with Hyperwave sensors as it is, nevermind all the incidents where ships failed to be detected at close ranges (The Falcon getting within two light minutes of the Pride of Yevetha in Tyrant's Test - hell the whole Black Fleet Crisis is one huge argument against FTL sensors the way you argue since ther'es also the Recon-X's, but there's also stuff like Thrawn's micro jumps against the enemy in HTTE or Luke escaping thrawn in the same book. Or the fact that in TESB that had Ozzel not been a complete idiot and come out too close the Imperials intended to come out of hyperspace beyond the asteroid belt and launch a surprise attack. Those are just examples that occur off the top of my head- I KNOW there's alot of problems with what you propose because It's something I've looked into on more than one occasion and it has serious logical problems with the rest of it.)
The Sernipdal incident was a dedicated recon mission, using FTL sensor sweeps to give a "rough" picture of the system BEFORE the recon ships jumped in to scan the system.
None of this applies to any of your scenario.
All of your objections can be answered by simply pointing out that this FTL sensor would be the equivalent of a "scatter" radar, long range systems that are able to pick up contacts but unable to provide anything but rough approximations of its location, relying on other radar systems to provide details. Their role is for detection purposes only.
The disadvantages of course would be that it could easily be spoofed. INDEED, the Sernipdal passage highlighted that it could be, and would easily miss out on Vong ships in the vicinity of a gravity well.

Um, you have evidence that psychic phenomena in SW isn't force-based, because there are a GREAT many novels I can name where force based shit is referred to as being psychic in nature (New Rebellion, Planet of twilight, Darth Maul Shadow Hunter, a buncha NJO novels, etc.) And even if it isn't, why would we assume "psychic" automatically means "warp based" in Star Wars?

1. Marvel comics where there's a telepath with no force sensitivity? The Gotal emphatic sensitivity?
2. Note. I'm not arguing for psychic=warp based. I'm arguing that the Shadow in the Warp produces pyschic effects...... and this psychic effect can be detected by SW telepaths, such as Force Users.

There are lots of ways for possession or even corruption to occur, and not all apply to non-40K characters. A psyker, trained or otherwise, basically broadcasts their existence to the Warp, where the various psychic predators and whatnot, particularily daemons, can detect and home in on this. The stronger the psyker, the bigger the signal, and untrained psykers generally aren't able to shield themselves. Hell even some of those that are trained like Astropaths need the Emperor's aid and protection in that respect (hence Soul Binding). They basically become gateways through which Daemons can enter normal space, and also anchors/links betwene realspace and the warp (for as long as the possession lasts.) Jedi, and SW populaces in general (not to mention other universes) do not have that connection to the Warp - they have never evinced the sorts of mutations or growing number of psychic individuals which would indicate they have 40K psykers because by most accounts the bulk of the highly psychic (if not all) 40K races had their links to the warp artificially augmented long in their past, which is one reason why the warp is as fucked up as it is. SW humans, unless the same races in 40k visited them (unlikely) would not have this, and thus have a tenuous (to the point of practically non-existent in all probability) connection to the Warp. They would be more akin to the Tau than anything else (able to be influenced by psyker and warp phenomena if they come into direct contact with it but its doubtful that spontaneous "corruption" will just occur. It doesnt even happen all that often in 40K.)

So, is this a rebuttal against SW force users having a connection to the Warp?
If so, note that the thrust is entirely different. I'm arguing based on the vs rules that the Warp exists, the Force exists, their effects exists. Hence, the psychic element of the Warp can similarly be detected by the Force, ditto to the other.

I also note that in this situation, Force users venturing into Wh40k universe are going to be vulnerable to Chaos possession. The mechanics will differ, but the existence of Sith Ghosts tempting Force users to the Dark side offers a parallel to what Chaos can do.

Does that clarify anything for you or why I keep insisting that the Force and the Warp are separate and distinct?

So? If you have noted my statement, it was the psychic elements of the Shadow in the warp can be detected by force users. NOT the Force and the Warp are the same.

[Eviscerator]

And the entire CRUX of the matter is not GE warships being able to achieve the same speeds of the Falcon, but rather, the speed of hyperdrive for SW warships compared to the Imperium.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that compared to the Imperium, SW hyperdrive is slower for long journeys. Its only for relatively short transits that the Imperium gains remote parity.
The consequences of this for a conflict against the Tyrannids should be obvious. And since we're discussing the GE vs the Nids as opposed to the Republic vs the Nids, we won't even need to discuss the issues of short range hyperspace craft discussed in AOTC ICS.

.

The speed of vessels in SW is a constant but in 40K, serious warpfuckery happens, even with a relatively short jump. There's too many examples, i'll leave it at two, admittedely extreme one for 40k. The beauty is that ships normally arrive where they are expected in SW unless hyperdrive fails but You Cant Know WTF will happen for 40k.
SW: Fifth fleet makes an transit from Coruscant to Koornatch Cluster in approx 3 days.
40K: Morisha Incident - Assasin was sent to assasinat Governor in 536.M37. During transit, vessel was caught in a warp rift and held in a temporal stasis for 698 years. Codex: Assasins last page.

a 698 year delay, now i dont know but it seems significant now.....
It's theretically possible that tommorow ships of the Traitor Legions might arrive at Terra, 11thousand years late and be curbstomped

[Connor MacLeod]

I need to repeat my post again
So? There is no indication that for longer distances, the Imperium speed is on par with hyperdrive.
While Maul, Anakin/Obiwan and Yoda speeds may be taken as outlier, why should the Falcon be regarded as such? Because she's a smuggler ship?
Han was BROKE and massively in debt. Despite the Falcon speed records, there is no reason to assume that any well designed military craft built for speed could not achieve the same.
Its all in there.
1. There is no indication that for long distances, Imperium warpdrive is on par with hyperdrive. Again, Sanctuarary 101 took the Sister one year in her time, 6 years in real time.
2. While one may be able to argue that Maul, Anakin/Obiwan and Yoda hyperspace speeds are outlier examples, there should be no reason to argue that the Falcon speed records should be taken as an outlier for , I repeat, well designed military craft built for speed.

And the entire CRUX of the matter is not GE warships being able to achieve the same speeds of the Falcon, but rather, the speed of hyperdrive for SW warships compared to the Imperium.

There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that compared to the Imperium, SW hyperdrive is slower for long journeys. Its only for relatively short transits that the Imperium gains remote parity.
The consequences of this for a conflict against the Tyrannids should be obvious. And since we're discussing the GE vs the Nids as opposed to the Republic vs the Nids, we won't even need to discuss the issues of short range hyperspace craft discussed in AOTC ICS.

I see where the confusion is. I suggest you go back to page 8 and re read the responses I was directing specifically at Srelex and I was discussing response time. For some reason you decided to fixate on FTL speed alone, even though I was explicitly saying speed was only ONE factor of response time - others including things like distances needing to be covered and such. I cannot fathom how you interpreted this as you did, since nothing I said is untrue, and I never denied that SW hyperdrive in the SW galaxy is faster than 40K warp drive in the 40K galaxy (barring certain exceptional cases like an extremely powerful but stable current, or extreme time dilation favoring warp travel)

Excuse me, I believe the point of contention is whether gravitic sensors are FTL here?
The ability to detect mass shadows in hyperspace is proof inconclusive of this. Detecting real objects using FTL gravitic sensors is supported BY the sernipdal example, not this.

Why would we assume gravity sensors are FTL? We know IRL they're lightspeed, and I dont see why that would change in SW. The idea that gravity is a fTL phenomenon is stupid. I should note this topic has been discussed before here with regards to how gravity sensors can be deemed to work. Nothing I have ever known of WRT hyperspace travle (including stuff like Curtis' rationalizations) have ever required gravity to be FTL.

Even if we did assume that FTL grav sensors were used at Sernpidal in any case, detecting Vong ships wouldnt neccesarily mean much since Vong make extensive use of gravitywank tech to begin with. How it applies to the Nids would be a big "depends on" (EG they might detect Narvahls, for example.)

The Sernipdal incident was a dedicated recon mission, using FTL sensor sweeps to give a "rough" picture of the system BEFORE the recon ships jumped in to scan the system.
None of this applies to any of your scenario.

All of your objections can be answered by simply pointing out that this FTL sensor would be the equivalent of a "scatter" radar, long range systems that are able to pick up contacts but unable to provide anything but rough approximations of its location, relying on other radar systems to provide details. Their role is for detection purposes only.
The disadvantages of course would be that it could easily be spoofed. INDEED, the Sernipdal passage highlighted that it could be, and would easily miss out on Vong ships in the vicinity of a gravity well.

[/quote]

See above. Even assuming these are FTL sensors, they will be at the same limitations that honorverse sensors are.

1. Marvel comics where there's a telepath with no force sensitivity?

Do they explicilty say that it's not force based?

The Gotal emphatic sensitivity?

Which as I recall being depicted (cf the Nightlily short story) as being some sort of electromagnetic sensor than any sort of "psychic" ability (The Gotal dude in the story incorrectly interprets the data he gets from his horns about Nightlily and ends up getting killed)

2. Note. I'm not arguing for psychic=warp based. I'm arguing that the Shadow in the Warp produces pyschic effects...... and this psychic effect can be detected by SW telepaths, such as Force Users.

So? you're still assuming its all the same because they call it "psychic". That doesn't neccesarily fly. Psychic shit in 40K can still be different from psychic shit in SW. Assuming they ARE the same is simply granting abilities that may not exist. (CF by your logic it would be assumed that C'Tan would be highly vulnerable to Force based attacks. Which is a possibility but not a proven one.)

So, is this a rebuttal against SW force users having a connection to the Warp?
If so, note that the thrust is entirely different. I'm arguing based on the vs rules that the Warp exists, the Force exists, their effects exists. Hence, the psychic element of the Warp can similarly be detected by the Force, ditto to the other.

By what mechanism do you propose this?

I also note that in this situation, Force users venturing into Wh40k universe are going to be vulnerable to Chaos possession. The mechanics will differ, but the existence of Sith Ghosts tempting Force users to the Dark side offers a parallel to what Chaos can do.

It offers a parallel, but it doesnt prove a linked mechanism. I base the ability of stuff from SW being able to be possessed on the simple fact that inert matter can be "possessed" and manipulated. The ability reamins unchanged, the mechanism is going to differ (EG a force user won't get corrupted through his connectio nto the Force.)

So? If you have noted my statement, it was the psychic elements of the Shadow in the warp can be detected by force users. NOT the Force and the Warp are the same.

Again, by what mechanism?

[PainRack]

I see where the confusion is. I suggest you go back to page 8 and re read the responses I was directing specifically at Srelex and I was discussing response time. For some reason you decided to fixate on FTL speed alone, even though I was explicitly saying speed was only ONE factor of response time - others including things like distances needing to be covered and such. I cannot fathom how you interpreted this as you did, since nothing I said is untrue, and I never denied that SW hyperdrive in the SW galaxy is faster than 40K warp drive in the 40K galaxy (barring certain exceptional cases like an extremely powerful but stable current, or extreme time dilation favoring warp travel)

I see the mistake. I apologise.

So? you're still assuming its all the same because they call it "psychic". That doesn't neccesarily fly. Psychic shit in 40K can still be different from psychic shit in SW. Assuming they ARE the same is simply granting abilities that may not exist. (CF by your logic it would be assumed that C'Tan would be highly vulnerable to Force based attacks. Which is a possibility but not a proven one.)

This depends on whether a vs will allow the ability for psykers to shield their thoughts against others and other forms of defences.
If psykers and Force users are able to shield against one another telepathic probes, then some unexplained link is present.

[Connor MacLeod]

This depends on whether a vs will allow the ability for psykers to shield their thoughts against others and other forms of defences.
If psykers and Force users are able to shield against one another telepathic probes, then some unexplained link is present.

That depends on how they shield. Depending on the sources, something as simle as sufficient mental training or willpower can resist certain forms of telepathic atack (on both sides). It cna also depend alot on the mechanism of "reading". If for example Jedi are reading or drawing upon something to do with the brain directly, then it may cross over (although interpreting or understanding is another story.) If they're reading the "Force" (aura reading for lack of a better term, which exists in 40K) it may not neccesarily carry over.