Twelve years old arrested for doodling (New York)

[Murazor]

Source.

Don't blame me, says principal who called for the arrest of Queens girl, 12, for doodling on desk
BY Victor Epstein and Rachel Monahan
DAILY NEWS WRITERS

Friday, February 5th 2010, 11:02 PM


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/edu ... z0enAml4xs


Education officials say it was a "mistake," but the principal of a school where a 12-year-old girl was arrested and cuffed for doodling on her desk won't back down, the student's mom said Friday.

Alexa Gonzalez no longer faces a suspension for scribbling with a lime green marker, but principal Marilyn Grant told her mother, Moraima Camacho, that agency policy dictated that she calls the cops.

"[She said] that it wasn't their fault that it was something they had to do," Camacho said of her meeting with Grant at Junior High School 190 in Forest Hills. "She doesn't consider it doodling."

A message left for Grant was not returned.

After Alexa scribbled her name, the date and a smiley face on her desk during a Spanish class on Monday, her teacher reported her to an assistant principal, who placed a call to cops, city officials said.

The cops arrested Alexa, escorting her out of the school with her hands behind her back in metal handcuffs, Camacho said.

City Department of Education spokeswoman Margie Feinberg called the episode a mistake. "The principal made a mistake and has lifted the suspension," she said.

Though other students have been arrested for petty wrongdoings, this was the first time the city admitted to an error, said New York Civil Liberties Union executive director Donna Lieberman.

"This should be a wakeup call to the mayor," she said. Teachers, students and parents at the school agreed Friday. "I definitely think it was excessive for this girl to be handcuffed," said a teacher at the school .

The NYPD is expected this month to start using Velcro handcuffs to subdue unruly kids following a pilot program in 22 schools in northern Queens.

rmonahan@nydailynews.com

With Rocco Parascandola

Read a summary of this in Yahoo Spain that mentioned that there have been twenty arrests of students, since the police started handling discipline at primary schools, and I feel that I must ask if this is considered even somewhat justifiable. Despite the serious worsening of discipline in the Spanish educative system over the last ten years, I am pretty damn sure that heads would roll for something like this even in the political level.

[Aaron]

I don't get why the teacher couldn't just get her to wash it off with water and paper towel. Why would you even bother to report her for it?

[Murazor]

I don't get why the teacher couldn't just get her to wash it off with water and paper towel. Why would you even bother to report her for it?

I can imagine any number of reasons, from an inexperienced teacher that felt a need for help against what she perceived as an attack to her authority to a petty, stressed one that simply decided to get the student in as much trouble as she could. I've known examples of both kinds, but none of the scenarios I can imagine justify the police coming in or the handcuffing.

[Havok]

This is ridiculous. The teacher, principal, officer and everyone in between involved with letting this happen, should all be fired. THAT will set an example to use your fucking uncommon sense in a situation like this.

[Simon_Jester]

I think there must have been a long chain of very bad decisions here- harassed or petty teacher, idiot draconian policy on the part of the principal, police who don't have the latitude to decide not to arrest someone who hasn't committed a crime... the fact that a "perfect storm" like this is even possible is a sign that a lot of things are badly wrong in the area it happened in.

[aieeegrunt]

Wow, that is just absolutely insane. Seriously, what the fuck happened to the US over the last 20 years?

[Siege]

It's not the teacher's fault; she merely reported the incident to the assistant principal. The assistant principal then called the cops. So if anyone is to blame, its the AP. Well, and the cops who didn't immediately tell the AP off for wasting their time, I guess. What the hell were they thinking escorting a 12 year old out in handcuffs for scribbling a smiley on her desk?!

[Serafina]

You know, i could understand it if it happened once.
Teachers can be pretty stressed out, so mistakes happen.

But apparently, this is turning into standard policy.
Don't they teach teachers how to handle stundents anymore?
This was not even remotely violent, dangerous or urgent - if a teacher can not even handle that, he/she is simply unsuited for the job.

[Soontir C'boath]

A school in Forest Hills, really? I always thought it was a nice neighborhood unlike say Astoria and South Jamaica where delinquents are abound.

[RedImperator]

I got caught scribbling on my desk when I was about the same age. The teacher gave me a detention and made me scrub all the desks in the classroom that afternoon. That's about the appropriate level of response to something like this.

Now, as for why an assistant principal got involved, we don't know all the details of the incident. It could have been a second offense for that student, or she might have already broken other rules (I might send a student to the vice-principal if I've already had to give her a detention for something else that day) or she might have mouthed off, or the teacher was trying to make an example of her. It could be that it's school policy that any "vandalism" gets referred to the AP's office, no matter how petty. I do agree that without any mitigating circumstances, it's an overreaction to involve the administration for something this small.

Which brings us to how the police got involved. I would eat my hat if the school didn't have a "arrest for vandalism" policy, written to deal with people who graffiti the building or break desks or something. What I would guess happen is the girl got sent to the AP's office for "vandalism", and 1) the school has an ironclad zero tolerance policy which tied the AP's hands, 2) the AP misinterpreted the policy to require calling the police in all incidences of "vandalism", or 3) the AP is a jerk.

As for the cops, my guess is the AP called the police, and the police sent two officers with instructions just to make the arrest. In a situation like this, it's not their job to sort out the facts on the ground; it's the responsibility of the school to determine if a student needs to be led out in cuffs, and it's the responsibility of their supervisors to determine if charges are filed. When I worked in the School District of Philadelphia, when the administration brought in the police, they came and arrested the students, no questions asked. That should be the policy, because if a situation has escalated to the point the police need to be involved, then the administration needs to know the police department has its back. The flip side to that is the school district is responsible for making sure the police aren't called for frivolous reasons, which is where the system broke down in this case.

[Molyneux]

This is insanity. Nothing more or less.

If the AP had his hands tied a policy, what would have been the possible results of violating the policy by NOT having a twelve-year-old girl arrested? I seriously doubt that anything worse a reprimand would have been issued - and even if he somehow wound up losing his job, I would think that a man whose career should be focused around the education and well-being of children would put himself out on a limb for the SAKE of a child.

Saying his "hands were tied" is insufficient. The man had a choice, and he made the wrong one.

[Liberty]

Don't they teach teachers how to handle stundents anymore?

This is one of the things I think would be difficult about being a teacher, especially in middle/high school. Kids can be pretty unruly, especially in some school districts, and I'm curious what resources teachers have at hand to deal with discipline problems. Obviously, the teacher can't spank the students, or sit them in corners with dunce caps, methods that (I understand) were used in the (distant?) past. What has replaced such methods? Notes to parents? Suspension? Do these methods work for those students with parents who could care less where they are or what they do?

As to this specific case - I think one element may be that people today are often very careful to act by the book for fear of getting in legal trouble.

[Simon_Jester]

I got caught scribbling on my desk when I was about the same age. The teacher gave me a detention and made me scrub all the desks in the classroom that afternoon. That's about the appropriate level of response to something like this.

Now, as for why an assistant principal got involved, we don't know all the details of the incident. It could have been a second offense for that student, or she might have already broken other rules (I might send a student to the vice-principal if I've already had to give her a detention for something else that day) or she might have mouthed off, or the teacher was trying to make an example of her. It could be that it's school policy that any "vandalism" gets referred to the AP's office, no matter how petty. I do agree that without any mitigating circumstances, it's an overreaction to involve the administration for something this small.

Up to this point, the policy would be understandable...

Which brings us to how the police got involved. I would eat my hat if the school didn't have a "arrest for vandalism" policy, written to deal with people who graffiti the building or break desks or something. What I would guess happen is the girl got sent to the AP's office for "vandalism", and 1) the school has an ironclad zero tolerance policy which tied the AP's hands, 2) the AP misinterpreted the policy to require calling the police in all incidences of "vandalism", or 3) the AP is a jerk.

...and this is where the system breaks down. If the school is responsible for knowing when to call the police on students, the school shouldn't have Nazi policies any more than the police do. In effect they're getting police powers delegated to them (in this case, a policeman's ability to arrest people given a good reason to think they've committed a crime), and that should come with police responsibilities.

If they want demented zero-tolerance policies so they can brag about how hard they are, they should damn well have to enforce their own policies and not be able to borrow the police as enforcers.

[Kamakazie Sith]

and this is where the system breaks down. If the school is responsible for knowing when to call the police on students, the school shouldn't have Nazi policies any more than the police do. In effect they're getting police powers delegated to them (in this case, a policeman's ability to arrest people given a good reason to think they've committed a crime), and that should come with police responsibilities.

First of all, I'd like to hear some specific examples from RI regarding police officers arresting juveniles when no crime has been committed. (which I doubt he is saying that) He's right that it is important for the police to back up the school, but a police officer can't make an arrest if no criminal statute as been violated. Second, writing on a desk could be considered vandalism, which is a crime. Third, we have no idea what the history is with this kid. It might be time to get the juvenile courts involved.

Unless she defaced and damaged a large dollar value of school property the only reason I can think of that she was taken to detention is because they weren't able to get a hold of her parents.

If they want demented zero-tolerance policies so they can brag about how hard they are, they should damn well have to enforce their own policies and not be able to borrow the police as enforcers.

I agree. However, even a school has a right to report even a young child like this when she defaces their property.

[Uraniun235]

This is insanity. Nothing more or less.

If the AP had his hands tied a policy, what would have been the possible results of violating the policy by NOT having a twelve-year-old girl arrested? I seriously doubt that anything worse a reprimand would have been issued - and even if he somehow wound up losing his job, I would think that a man whose career should be focused around the education and well-being of children would put himself out on a limb for the SAKE of a child.

Saying his "hands were tied" is insufficient. The man had a choice, and he made the wrong one.

Don't you think you're overreacting a bit? It's unfortunate that a 12 year old was arrested for scribbling on a desk, but it's not as if her life has been ruined by it. If I were facing a policy that demanded a 12 year old be arrested, or face termination, I would probably call the cops. A year from now, that girl will probably be doing fine. On the other hand, I might not have a job a year from now if I get fired.

And suppose I had a family to support?

[Patrick Degan]

Wow, that is just absolutely insane. Seriously, what the fuck happened to the US over the last 20 years?

Zero-tolerance idiocy is what happened to the U.S.

[Phantasee]

If I had been arrested every time I vandalized school property, I would have graduated with a charge sheet as long as... actually, it might have been as long as my arm, if you put in everything I did. Fortunately, zero-tolerance started going crazy after I was already in high school and had started to focus on my studies more (although the vandalism continued, the fighting stopped). Back when I was getting in trouble, it only applied to violence (if you got in a fight, all parties that made contact would get out of school suspensions).

[aieeegrunt]

My school was the same way, but even with that the teacher would sometimes look the other way. I had some asshole harassing me for most of a school year, and he finally crossed the line one day (kicked me in the ass as I walked past his desk) and I pounded him into the ground, in the middle of English class. I remember catching the teacher slipping out the back door of the classroom out of the corner of my eye once I had the guy on the ground.

Nobody said boo, which should be an indication of how much of a dick this guy was. I was pretty well liked by my peers, so they closed rank and it 'never happened'. Had I not been honor roll and a football captain the result may have been different, but whatever.

[Zixinus]

For fuck's sake: either get the kid to do detention or just pass over the problem to the parents by making them "pay for the damage".

There. There is absolutely no reason why police officers should get involved. Police officer's job is to go after criminals, not scare little children (hell, if anything, they should do the opposite: reassure children about their safety). That is not their job.

If teachers and principals have to do this, for this, then they are unfit to handle children. I don't care, if they can't get children to stop doing stuff like this or not find appropriate ways to punish people, I cannot imagine these people to be competent teachers.

[Big Phil]

Wow... this reads like the mouth breathing YouTube or newspaper comment section; I thought this board was better than that, but apparently every dickhead with an opinion and little factual support believes he/she has the right to comment.

RedImperator is absolutely right - likely this was considered vandalism and with Zero Tolerance policies, the Teacher, AP, and Principal faced the unpleasant choices of "call the cops to arrest the girl vs. lose our jobs." Damned know-it-alls

[Darth Yan]

Jesus christ. People in grade school have done far worse and haven't gotten arrested. My 10 year old friend damaged a mans car and all he did was work for 6 weeks. These people are insane.

[RedImperator]

This is insanity. Nothing more or less.

If the AP had his hands tied a policy, what would have been the possible results of violating the policy by NOT having a twelve-year-old girl arrested? I seriously doubt that anything worse a reprimand would have been issued - and even if he somehow wound up losing his job, I would think that a man whose career should be focused around the education and well-being of children would put himself out on a limb for the SAKE of a child.

Saying his "hands were tied" is insufficient. The man had a choice, and he made the wrong one.

"Hurr hurr, i r internet toughguy!" I'd love to see how tough you are when your livelihood is on the line.

If teachers and principals have to do this, for this, then they are unfit to handle children. I don't care, if they can't get children to stop doing stuff like this or not find appropriate ways to punish people, I cannot imagine these people to be competent teachers.

I double-dog-dare you to quote the part of the article where it says the teacher was in any way involved with the decision to call the police.

and this is where the system breaks down. If the school is responsible for knowing when to call the police on students, the school shouldn't have Nazi policies any more than the police do. In effect they're getting police powers delegated to them (in this case, a policeman's ability to arrest people given a good reason to think they've committed a crime), and that should come with police responsibilities.

First of all, I'd like to hear some specific examples from RI regarding police officers arresting juveniles when no crime has been committed. (which I doubt he is saying that) He's right that it is important for the police to back up the school, but a police officer can't make an arrest if no criminal statute as been violated. Second, writing on a desk could be considered vandalism, which is a crime. Third, we have no idea what the history is with this kid. It might be time to get the juvenile courts involved.

I was never in the office when the police came, so I'm running on stuff I heard secondhand, but basically what would happen is a kid would get in shit--usually either he got caught with drugs or a weapon or was involved in a fight--and held at the vice principal's office until the police showed up. There was some paperwork involved, but as far as I know, the cops came in, read the paperwork, cuffed the kid, and left. Maybe there was some cursory questions asked, but they didn't conduct an investigation before hauling the kid out; they trusted the school to have its shit together. I can't imagine that if the kid had actually committed a crime--and for the slow and special people in this thread, scribbling on a desk is technically vandalism, even if most reasonable people would say it doesn't warrant police involvement--the police would refuse to make an arrest if the school asked.

[Shroom Man 777]

Man, schools in that part of America must've been really shit, or students must've been really bad, for protocols involving the calling of police and the arrest of students to have been put in place and used. It sounds pretty damn bad.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I was expecting there to be some sort of violence involved in the drawing, but nope, not even that can be used as an excuse.

Who the hell DIDN'T draw on their desk at least a couple times in elementary school?

[hunter5]

Don't they teach teachers how to handle stundents anymore?

It isn't so much they are not taught how to handle students they basically are not allowed to anymore. There really isn't any light punishments for light rule breaking anymore. It is either hit it with the Hammer of Absolute Justice, such as in this case, or completely ignore it.