SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Thanas]

Better performance, Lascaris? This is the best performance one can get with a 16" gun from the 1920s. Better performances were only achieved in the 1940s. Quite simply, this 16" gun is already the best there can be with 20s technology, and a great deal better than the british who did not push safety margins as the germans did.

[Lascaris]

Better performance, Lascaris? This is the best performance one can get with a 16" gun from the 1920s. Better performances were only achieved in the 1940s. Quite simply, this 16" gun is already the best there can be with 20s technology, and a great deal better than the british who did not push safety margins as the germans did.

Tsk tsk tsk. My guns have a great technical advantage. Namely Sir Basil Zaharoff.


Post that please also note that British ATL guns are not necessarily the same with British OTL guns of the same calibre unless specifically mentioned so.

[Thanas]

Post that please also note that British ATL guns are not necessarily the same with British OTL guns of the same calibre unless specifically mentioned so.

Right, because suddenly they are special and can break the laws of metallurgy. No way are you going to get numbers better than that. Unless you want to argue the british suddenly changed their entire design philosophy but no way that is in anyway realistic.

Especially not considering their own 16" designs were far lacking in comparison.

[Lascaris]

Post that please also note that British ATL guns are not necessarily the same with British OTL guns of the same calibre unless specifically mentioned so.

Right, because suddenly they are special and can break the laws of metallurgy. No way are you going to get numbers better than that. Unless you want to argue the british suddenly changed their entire design philosophy but no way that is in anyway realistic.

Especially not considering their own 16" designs were far lacking in comparison.

While everything else so far is. Show me the 1.2 million troops minimum it takes to occupy the 60 million Dutch and we can talk again on what guns we build or don't build.

[Thanas]

Because the dutch are not under occupation? You fail at reading the history and arrangements of the thing. But please, if you want to, enquire to Siege about the status of the Dutch.

Also, just so you know, I do have around 1.2 million stationed in Northern Germany/Dutch terrtories. Look at my Orbat.

And it has always been a staple of this STGOD that nations were using their national technology. Hence me actually making technology deals with other nations and buying MAS from Italy instead building them myself.

EDIT: 1.2 instead of 1.6 as stated. Pressed the wrong number.

[Lonestar]

Post that please also note that British ATL guns are not necessarily the same with British OTL guns of the same calibre unless specifically mentioned so.

Altdorf Arsenal 16/45 guns are considered to have about the same performance as the most recent Krupp 16/45s(at least close enough for government work). The SOLE reason why the Grand Dominion is considering a split buy with a foreign manufacturer is to compress deployment time of the new coastal defense system. At the moment the heaviest guns are M1914 15/50s, and it's part of the Dominion Joint Commission on Coastal Defense to not have guns smaller than existing GDN battleships at major ports(in this case, the guns that will end up on the new Centurions and Mercurys).

If Vickers can make a better case than Krupp, knock yourself out. But the lion's share of the order is going to the Altdorf Arsenal.

[Lonestar]

Also, Lascaris, while some Indian cities continue to exist as named in the OTL, Delhi is not one of them. The capital of the Grand Dominion is Williamsburg.

[Steve]

Just a little reminder, everyone, that we're in Q2 1926 and Q3 starts this Saturday.

[Lascaris]

Because the dutch are not under occupation? You fail at reading the history and arrangements of the thing. But please, if you want to, enquire to Siege about the status of the Dutch.

Also, just so you know, I do have around 1.2 million stationed in Northern Germany/Dutch terrtories. Look at my Orbat.

And it has always been a staple of this STGOD that nations were using their national technology. Hence me actually making technology deals with other nations and buying MAS from Italy instead building them myself.

EDIT: 1.2 instead of 1.6 as stated. Pressed the wrong number.

Vis a vis the Dutch that a Quisling surrendered Holland and then Germany granted political rights to the Dutch which is for every practical matter what you did hardly means that Dutch patriots magically disappear or that they will be happy to be part of Germany where happy is defined as not blowing German soldiers every second corner. It simply runs against simple human nature and that's about it. I frankly can't believe that the Dutch can be made to be part of Germany at anything but gunpoint and the same holds true of North Italy.

Vis a vis guns the history of the world has gone radically different the day Romanos Diogenes smashed the Seljuks at Manzikert. The historical figures and designs we use are about as lilkely as the ahistorical ones thrown into the mix. Or rather less likely given the radically different historical backgrounds. If I want to change the history of British gun design back to the first rifled piece or back to the Brown Bess as long as I don't violate what is technically feasible that's my job and no way in hell you are going to saddle me with the Mark I design on account of it being convenient to Germany.

And I don't even need to point to a century and more of radically different British history for that. I'll just point to what the British were actually designing and testing at the time as shown in the plans for the Mark II 18in gun. In OTL the British rushed things up with the Mark I without adequate testing and failing to use newer construction methods they were trying out for the N3 guns. ATL simply put they don't rush things and the timetable of their gun designs post 1912 is completely different as the first British 16in ships are laid down in 1917.

[Thanas]

Vis a vis the Dutch that a Quisling surrendered Holland and then Germany granted political rights to the Dutch which is for every practical matter what you did hardly means that Dutch patriots magically disappear or that they will be happy to be part of Germany where happy is defined as not blowing German soldiers every second corner. It simply runs against simple human nature and that's about it. I frankly can't believe that the Dutch can be made to be part of Germany at anything but gunpoint and the same holds true of North Italy.

Ah, of course Lascaris knows the feelings of the dutch. Of course he knows that they will, after two ruinous wars, a complete inept government etc. they are so happy to yearn for that. Of course they yearn to return to a police state. I suppose the Germans also hated the amercans after WWII.

Fact is - they are prospering, they have more freedoms than they did under the previous regimes, they are probably the deciding vote in the reichstag and they get enormous treasure pumped into them.

So either take it to the mods or stop this spiel. You don't get to roleplay my territory.

Vis a vis guns the history of the world has gone radically different the day Romanos Diogenes smashed the Seljuks at Manzikert. The historical figures and designs we use are about as lilkely as the ahistorical ones thrown into the mix. Or rather less likely given the radically different historical backgrounds. If I want to change the history of British gun design back to the first rifled piece or back to the Brown Bess as long as I don't violate what is technically feasible that's my job and no way in hell you are going to saddle me with the Mark I design on account of it being convenient to Germany.

And I don't even need to point to a century and more of radically different British history for that. I'll just point to what the British were actually designing and testing at the time as shown in the plans for the Mark II 18in gun. In OTL the British rushed things up with the Mark I without adequate testing and failing to use newer construction methods they were trying out for the N3 guns. ATL simply put they don't rush things and the timetable of their gun designs post 1912 is completely different as the first British 16in ships are laid down in 1917.

So what? You are not going to get any performance superior to the german gun because there simply is none that is metallurgical possible. Get this through your thick head - it is not possible to do so due to metallurgical difficulties. Otherwise we are in magical lalaland here.

And if you want to go down this route, I shall start contesting everything, especially your rewrite of an OOB. Nobody else ever in this game took over a country and rewrote its entire OOB, but apparently you did.

[Lascaris]

Ah, of course Lascaris knows the feelings of the dutch. Of course he knows that they will, after two ruinous wars, a complete inept government etc. they are so happy to yearn for that. Of course they yearn to return to a police state. I suppose the Germans also hated the amercans after WWII.

Fact is - they are prospering, they have more freedoms than they did under the previous regimes, they are probably the deciding vote in the reichstag and they get enormous treasure pumped into them.

So either take it to the mods or stop this spiel. You don't get to roleplay my territory.

The Germans last I had seen were not made a province of the United States in 1945. Not even a close satellite East German side. As well as thoroughly crushed and with a few hundred Soviet divisions ready to jump in if the Americans went away. And yes. All said and done were I a Dutch I'd be hating the Germans guts no matter how well treated I were. National independence is worth more.

And no I don't get to roleplay your country (will leave whether things comquered post 1925 counts as part of that to the mods) any more than you get to play mine.

So what? You are not going to get any performance superior to the german gun because there simply is none that is metallurgical possible. Get this through your thick head - it is not possible to do so due to metallurgical difficulties. Otherwise we are in magical lalaland here.

And if you want to go down this route, I shall start contesting everything, especially your rewrite of an OOB. Nobody else ever in this game took over a country and rewrote its entire OOB, but apparently you did.

Remind me to shrug. Vickers claimed its guns to be superior. You decide to contest that statement OOC by claiming that Krupp guns are the best technically possible. As if it matters at the slightest. Well hint there is a reason Vickers sent the chief arms salesman of the era off to India.

[Thanas]

And no I don't get to roleplay your country (will leave whether things comquered post 1925 counts as part of that to the mods) any more than you get to play mine.

Indeed. And considering that they already ruled on that matter and that I have confirmed my assumption about the dutch with the player who played the dutch side of the war, I thank you not to bring it up again.

[loomer]

Q2 build posted, gave myself a penalty for improper book-keeping for the last quarter.

On that note, most of the 'halftrained' artillery units in my orbat are actually barely trained at all.

[DarthShady]

I'm sorry I haven't been around much, the simulators have been keeping me quite busy lately - I barely have any free time. I will see about updating the necessary information and stuff soon, and I'll get the storyline I started going forward.

It should be fun.

[Thanas]

...and the review has started.

[Lascaris]

And no I don't get to roleplay your country (will leave whether things comquered post 1925 counts as part of that to the mods) any more than you get to play mine.

Indeed. And considering that they already ruled on that matter and that I have confirmed my assumption about the dutch with the player who played the dutch side of the war, I thank you not to bring it up again.

I'll freely admit I planned to ship arms to the Dutch resistance by the shipload even as Cisplatina.

[Steve]

On the issue of individual pieces of tech - like my researching early amphib assault boats - since we don't have a tech tree I was considering simply assigning an IBP total to individual items people wish to research. Once they reach the total, they can begin implementing it into their forces.

For instance, I am researching Automatic Intermediary Rifles for my Army and Marines as well as the aforementioned amphib landing boats. I will ask Rogue and/or Timothy to assign IBP totals for these projects.

Breakthroughs are not done overnight; like infrastructure and economy, investment has a minimum time, I'm thinking it will vary from 1 to 3 years depending upon what is being researched.

Note that if you try to research something earlier than it was historically developed I wish to hear a good argument on why it's feasible earlier, with my point cost total deriving from that.

[Siege]

I'd like a ruling on how much points I reasonably should expect to have to spend researching my first cavalry tank. The goal is a sort of early cruiser tank; presumably the high speed requirement will be a challenge in this time period, but then that's why I've been spending quite some time and IBPs on the project by now.

[Steve]

Yeah, I think it's a bit early for the kind of engine that would let you have a cavalry tank, presuming you're meaning something larger than a light tank which is primarily based on speed and perhaps some firepower?

How much are you investing in it IBP wise?

[Siege]

Yeah, I'm not aiming for a light tank, I want a proper cavalry tank with a lot of speed and a decent gun. As of Q3, 1926 I've invested 150 IBPs into researching the design. (25 IBPs per quarter since Q2, 1925).

[Steve]

The "A lot of speed" thing is perhaps the biggest problem, IIRC you'd need quite a powerful engine for the 1920s to achieve such in the size you're desiring, Egypt would be pressing the envelop in engine design of the time. Still, hrm, how about 500 IBPs, 3 year minimum? I'm open to objections.

Edit: Timothy, being more lenient than me, has proposed 300 IBPs, 2 and a half years (or 10 queues rather).

[CmdrWilkens]

For instance, I am researching Automatic Intermediary Rifles for my Army and Marines as well as the aforementioned amphib landing boats.

...or you could just by them from Mexico given that had an automatic infantry rifle and Squad LMG by 1908 in real life.

[Steve]

Forgot about the Mondragon. IIRC it did prove rather susceptible to mud and such. Arguably I'm just designing a newer, better automatic rifle.

[Ryan Thunder]

Forgot about the Mondragon. IIRC it did prove rather susceptible to mud and such. Arguably I'm just designing a newer, better automatic rifle.

I have multiple BAR-equivalents with bigger mags at the squad level. So Mexico can faff off.

[CmdrWilkens]

Forgot about the Mondragon. IIRC it did prove rather susceptible to mud and such. Arguably I'm just designing a newer, better automatic rifle.

It was somewhat susceptible to mud if you didn't clean it properly (think original M-16) but proved remarkably resilient against dust and sand. For actions that might take place along the northern plains, the north coast of Australia, or Central
California it would be an ideal weapon.

Forgot about the Mondragon. IIRC it did prove rather susceptible to mud and such. Arguably I'm just designing a newer, better automatic rifle.

I have multiple BAR-equivalents with bigger mags at the squad level. So Mexico can faff off.

Seriously Ryan not everything is a pissing match so stop trying to make it one.