SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Sea Skimmer]

I doubt our ability to make a worthwhile recoilless gun. They guzzle even modern propellants for relatively small low velocity rounds. With what we'd have, it wouldn't work very well. An advantage in lightweight could easily be out weighed by the huge amounts of power we'd need and all the safety problems that go along with making, loading and firing the things. I think some 12-20 pounder rifled cannons could do much of our work. They might not breach walls, but towers and crenulations will fall to them.

[Patrick Ogaard]

One of my friends who is a huge gun nut pocesses a machine with which you can reload spent shells. Should I bring it along?

If it could be packed, which I doubt.

As for the M-14: Precisely because it has some weight to it - Though not to much, only a kilogram more than the original M-16s - and because of its length, giving more reach to the bayonet, along with the wooden furniture.

An empty M14 weighs 1kg more than a loaded M-16A1.
And it's actually not more rugged and reliable and easy to maintain than an AK.
And the AK-101 fires .223, has comparable range, is lighter, has less recoil and is actually controllable when fired in full-auto mode.
The M-14's enormous recoil makes it useless in automatic mode, I don't think we should take them with us, but if you really want....

The Spanish Mausers were chambered for 7.62 NATO and are considered good guns, but I would like to have that rate of fire.

I thought we'd take some with us just in case we really need to deploy blackpowder cartridges. They'd also make decent sniper rifles.

The argument between proponents of the 7.62 mm battle rifle and those favoring the 5.56 mm assault rifle is long-standing and definitely won't get resolved here.

I think it might be best to agree to my initial proposal on standardization: choose two basic types of rifle and go with those for the overwhelming majority of the troops.

Those favoring the 7.62 mm battle rifle should go for a semiautomatic civilian clone of the M14. Automatic fire with a rifle-weight weapon using a good-sized rifle round is just plain a bad idea for all but specialists. What the M14 offers is length, lots of wood, and lots of range and striking power. Against troops whose best ranged weapons are bows, semiautomatic fire should be quite adequate. The M14 with a bayonet is also just what one needs when orcs sneak in for an ambush of a small patrol.

Those favoring the 5.56 mm assault rifle should go for practically anything that has a receiver compatible with that of the M16. Automatic fire is actually practical with a 5.56 mm assault rifle, and stopping power should be adequate for common orcs and, with short bursts, uruk-hai.

Specialists and gun bunnies will naturally insist on taking their favored weapons, taking into account the available ammunition types, so I would expect more than one Lee Enfield L42A1, Mauser Kar 98k, Remmington model 700 or some other suitable bolt action 7.62 mm NATO sniper rifle. Of course, I'd also expect the occasional MP5 or SPAS12.

[Sea Skimmer]

The argument between proponents of the 7.62 mm battle rifle and those favoring the 5.56 mm assault rifle is long-standing and definitely won't get resolved here.

Quick, break out the secret 6.5mm E-2 reserves!

Anyway, at the beginning anyway we can have JHP, which kills arguments against a 5.56's claimed lack of stopping power. Though it wouldn't work real well aginst heavy armor.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I doubt our ability to make a worthwhile recoilless gun. They guzzle even modern propellants for relatively small low velocity rounds. With what we'd have, it wouldn't work very well. An advantage in lightweight could easily be out weighed by the huge amounts of power we'd need and all the safety problems that go along with making, loading and firing the things. I think some 12-20 pounder rifled cannons could do much of our work. They might not breach walls, but towers and crenulations will fall to them.

A recoilless gun should work adequately using nitrocellulose as a propellant, and even garden variety gunpowder would work in a pinch. That the guns would not have hundreds of rounds available for each is obvious. A dozen to twenty shells per gun would be entirely adequate for an extended campaign. There will be no tanks or pillboxes to take out, radically reducing the number of shells needed overall.

A normal stone castle in Middle Earth should follow the same pattern as a typical European castle, meaning that it will rely on a curtain wall to keep out the enemy. Once the wall is breached, the castle falls, even to native auxiliaries. If the Middle Earth castles further follow the Roman and early medieval European pattern in the typical construction of their curtain walls, we're talking about an outer shell of dressed stone held together by mortar, an inner shell of the same construction, and a filler between the two, made of rocks and gravel tossed in with no more than a sprinkling of mortar.

Even if the outer shell of the curtain wall is assumed to be a foot thick and of solid granite, a crude shaped charge of 120mm diameter should be able to completely pulverize a good part of that shell, aiming at the base of the wall, and take a large divot out of the fill material. Castle curtain walls were made as high as possible so as to present an obstacle to troops attempting to scale them. Therefore, once the wall's shell is breached, the weight of the fill above places further strain on the wall below. A few more shots to deepen and widen the gap, and a good section of the wall should go down.

Alternatively, one uses the shells to blast the gate itself to pieces.

A 12-pounder rifled gun, like the Armstrong breechloader, seems like an awfully tall order for the limited industrial capacity of the taskforce. That barrel will have to be pretty thick, and very, very carefully machined in order to not blow up. The challenge of producing an iron or steel cannon barrel capable of standing up to enough propellant to pitch a 12-pounder shell at high velocity might well be too much. Making a barrel of drilled-out cast iron would require a lot of practical know-how that I don't think anyone involved has, so the only practical approach I could see would be a relatively thin inner liner of smoothed and rifled wrought iron combined with iron hoop-and-staff constructon on the outside. Getting the necessary strength out of that would likely require a very bulky and heavy barrel.

Producing large batches of propellant for recoilless guns might be a simpler approach.

[Connor MacLeod]

what about sea power? Maybe we shoudl work on a navy as well

I think that initially we'd do things ourselves, but as we're going to end up aging over two decades, we should put an eye towards recruitment and getting others ready to do our dirty work. By the time of Fellowship, most of us will probably be too old to do anything directly.

[phongn]

Someone should bring some books on naval design; the Sea is an important part of Middle-Earth.

[Balrog]

Not entirely. Building a blue-water navy would be a waste of resources, since the only sea power described in the LotR are the Corsairs of Umbar (and they have about 40 ships left i think) and there would be very few rivers a navy could sail up. Besides possibly some rafts for getting the Humvees across a river, there would be no point.

[Sea Skimmer]

A few moderate ships armed with cannon and a few rifles and machine guns would dominate the only fleet around, the 50 galleys of the Corsairs. Crossing the Aduin could be a problem with Hummers, but we should be able to build something to take one or two easily enough.

[Balrog]

A few moderate ships armed with cannon and a few rifles and machine guns would dominate the only fleet around, the 50 galleys of the Corsairs. Crossing the Aduin could be a problem with Hummers, but we should be able to build something to take one or two easily enough.

Was it 50? It's been so long....

Anyways, you could do the easiest and most cost-effective way of just avoiding the ocean

[Sea Skimmer]

Now that I think about it, our best bet would likely be to send an expedition to both secure the ring, and get a ship from the Elves west of the Shire. If we set out very quickly we might grab the ring before anyone knows it, and then sail back to Gondor.

Though this may be far too optimistic, and securing a ship without getting into a fight we don’t want so early on could be a problem. Later on though it should be an option.

[phongn]

Not entirely. Building a blue-water navy would be a waste of resources, since the only sea power described in the LotR are the Corsairs of Umbar (and they have about 40 ships left i think) and there would be very few rivers a navy could sail up. Besides possibly some rafts for getting the Humvees across a river, there would be no point.

The Sea allows us to dominate the coasts and ensure that the damned Corairs of Umbar don't get too upitty. This is more of a long-term thought than the here-and-now.

[Balrog]

Not entirely. Building a blue-water navy would be a waste of resources, since the only sea power described in the LotR are the Corsairs of Umbar (and they have about 40 ships left i think) and there would be very few rivers a navy could sail up. Besides possibly some rafts for getting the Humvees across a river, there would be no point.

The Sea allows us to dominate the coasts and ensure that the damned Corairs of Umbar don't get too upitty. This is more of a long-term thought than the here-and-now.

Like Sea Skimmer said, it would just be a lot easier to procure a ship from the Elves at the Grey Havens, fit a couple recoilless rifles and automatics, then smash the Corsairs on the open seas.

But still, the Corsairs arn't going to be much of a threat after the events of LotR. Following the events of the books, Aragorn captures their fleet and sails to the aid of Minis Tirith, and fourty years earlier their fleet was largely smashed in a Gondorian attack. If they get a bit rash we can post some cannon on the coast to ward them off.

[Crayz9000]

Actually, why don't we let Aragorn capture the Black Fleet anyway? It'll satisfy the undead army, and take out Umbar...

[Sea Skimmer]

Not entirely. Building a blue-water navy would be a waste of resources, since the only sea power described in the LotR are the Corsairs of Umbar (and they have about 40 ships left i think) and there would be very few rivers a navy could sail up. Besides possibly some rafts for getting the Humvees across a river, there would be no point.

The Sea allows us to dominate the coasts and ensure that the damned Corairs of Umbar don't get too upitty. This is more of a long-term thought than the here-and-now.

Like Sea Skimmer said, it would just be a lot easier to procure a ship from the Elves at the Grey Havens, fit a couple recoilless rifles and automatics, then smash the Corsairs on the open seas.

But still, the Corsairs arn't going to be much of a threat after the events of LotR. Following the events of the books, Aragorn captures their fleet and sails to the aid of Minis Tirith, and fourty years earlier their fleet was largely smashed in a Gondorian attack. If they get a bit rash we can post some cannon on the coast to ward them off.

Our cannon would be quite limited. While we might be able to protect the few locations of important on the coast, we couldn't stop a landing and overland attack with them. I'd improve whatever local defenses exist, training the troops and give them better weapons. But an offensive option would likely consume less resources then installing cannon and building fortifications to protect them.

A few ships with cannons and machine guns could launch raids against the Corsairs city and any forward bases they might be. It would be Sinope all over again.

[Balrog]

Yet we don't want Aragorn and his undead army to come to Umbar and find a couple of shot-up galleys to sail to the rescue of Gondor, right?

Unless you plan on defending the actual city with the 200-odd mobile force.

[Enforcer Talen]

kill saruman before hand, and the full strength of rohan can handle it. and anyway, they acheive victory by annhilating the ring, which we have at that point.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yet we don't want Aragorn and his undead army to come to Umbar and find a couple of shot-up galleys to sail to the rescue of Gondor, right?

Unless you plan on defending the actual city with the 200-odd mobile force.

I'd intend to send the Corsair fleet to the bottom of the sea months before the wars main phase begins, assuming it even gets a chance to be constructed. Aragorn will never get nor need his undead army, as we would probably intercept The Fellowship somewhere between the eastern gate of Moria and the falls of Rauros.

I'm working from the idea of us being located near Fangorn forest or elsewhere in western Rohan giving our objective of taking out Isenguard. Though really anywhere in Gondor or Rohan works.

[Sea Skimmer]

kill saruman before hand, and the full strength of rohan can handle it. and anyway, they acheive victory by annhilating the ring, which we have at that point.

I'd be careful about killing Saruman too far in advance; we have more then a decade after all. And we don't want to piss off the people of Rohan nor Gandalf and company. I'd at least wait to get the ring, or if we can't get that until the Fellowship starts off, I'd suggest an immediate attack on Isengaurd as soon as Saruman openly begins supporting Mordor.

Or we could just kill him as the first thing on our agenda, and win of the population later.

[Enforcer Talen]

does he get out much? who would know?

[Enforcer Talen]

does he get out much? who would know?

[Balrog]

He seems to stay in his tower or in the caverns most of the time, I'd pay to see how a sniper could get close enough to pick him off.

[Balrog]

Yet we don't want Aragorn and his undead army to come to Umbar and find a couple of shot-up galleys to sail to the rescue of Gondor, right?

Unless you plan on defending the actual city with the 200-odd mobile force.

I'd intend to send the Corsair fleet to the bottom of the sea months before the wars main phase begins, assuming it even gets a chance to be constructed. Aragorn will never get nor need his undead army, as we would probably intercept The Fellowship somewhere between the eastern gate of Moria and the falls of Rauros.

I'm working from the idea of us being located near Fangorn forest or elsewhere in western Rohan giving our objective of taking out Isenguard. Though really anywhere in Gondor or Rohan works.

Except for possibly sailing up the Anduin and intercepting your force if you make a river crossing along there, the Corsairs are a non-factor as long as the base is located far inland.

As fun as it would be to play Commodore , there are much better things to dedicate such resources to (i.e. Saruman, the Ring, Mordor)

[Enforcer Talen]

ring is very easy. saruman, he just needs to go on one walk. or we could check our histories, find when he's leaving for something, and take him down. then steal his stuff.

the real effort methinks is building a feifdom.

[Balrog]

ring is very easy. saruman, he just needs to go on one walk. or we could check our histories, find when he's leaving for something, and take him down. then steal his stuff.

the real effort methinks is building a feifdom.

Hmmmm, the only time i ever remember him leaving Orthanc during the time period we start it, was when he got his ass handed to him by the Ents and he slinked off to the Shire and messed it up.

[Typhonis 1]

Well all of it depends on the time we are given if we hacve a Year things will be tight with training and all three to five years lets us set up shop and still be a surprise.