About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

Post Reply
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10713
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Elfdart »

There's more news about the case of the three men who were found hanged in their cells in Guantanamo, which was quite a feat given their hands and feet were bound when they met their demise.

Harper's has an interview with Dr. Michael Baden, former chief medical examiner in New York City.
Six Questions for Dr. Michael Baden: The Guantánamo autopsies

Dr. Michael Baden, the former chief medical examiner for New York City, was host of the HBO series Autopsy and is the forensic science contributor to Fox News. I furnished Baden copies of the official autopsy reports for the three Guantánamo prisoners who died under mysterious circumstances in 2006, as well as information about secondary autopsies arranged by the families of the deceased.

1. When the U.S. government released its autopsy reports, it redacted the names of the pathologists and observers involved in preparing the report. It suggests that this was done to protect their privacy. Is this a normal practice?

Redacting the names of pathologists is not normal in either civilian or military practice. It is necessary to know the pathologists’ names to be able to evaluate their qualifications, certifications, and experience. This may also help the family assess whether a second autopsy should be done. Mistakes can be made. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, in a recent decision establishing a right to cross-examine forensic experts, wrote that “A forensic analyst responding to a request from a law enforcement official may feel pressure—or have an incentive—to alter the evidence in a manner favorable to the prosecution.” Science must remain independent of politics. It is necessary that names of the pathologists be known to the family for accountability purposes.

2. Do deaths in the context of confinement in prison raise any special concerns for a medical examiner conducting an autopsy?

Yes, a death in prison raises a special set of concerns that are not present when a person dies at liberty. The prison keepers have a duty to care for and protect prisoners. They must provide a reasonable level of health care, and they must address mental health issues of prisoners. They need to ascertain whether a prisoner has suicidal tendencies, and if so, they have to develop strategies to prevent suicide such as security cameras or one-on-one observation. A medical examiner presented with a death in prison needs to independently determine the cause and manner of death and how it happened so that such deaths can be prevented in the future.

3. It appears that the autopsies of the three Guantanamo prisoners were commenced within one day of their deaths and that no effort was made to notify their families or secure permission for an autopsy. Does this strike you as normal procedure?

The steps that were taken to conduct these autopsies need to be measured against the rules that had been established for deaths at the prison. Family permission is not needed in these circumstances. However, it is always proper procedure to notify the next of kin of a death and of the decision to conduct an autopsy. The next of kin will need to arrange removal and burial, or may also arrange for a second autopsy. Should there be religious objections to an autopsy, explanations should be provided as to why the autopsy was necessary.

4. The throats and internal organs were removed from all three prisoners and were not turned over to the families together with the remainder of the bodies. A lawyer acting for one of the families wrote a letter to Armed Forces Institute of Pathology demanding the missing materials, but thus far has been unable to examine them. Does this strike you as irregular?

When an autopsy is finished, all organs are normally returned to the body except those necessary for further tests, such as toxicology or histology. In cases where death is attributed to neck compression, as here, the neck organs may also be retained for further study. The families of the deceased always have the right to have a second autopsy performed. Properly qualified pathologists representing the families should be able to examine any organs retained and not present in the body at the time it is turned over. If the pathologists who conducted the first autopsy still need those parts for testing or examination, they should make them available to the pathologist conducting the second autopsy—either by sending the removed parts to the pathologist, or by allowing the pathologist to examine the parts at the site where the organs have been kept. It is not appropriate to be unresponsive to the pathologists conducting the second autopsy. If the body parts that were removed have been properly preserved, they can still be examined years later to assist in independently establishing how the death occurred.


5. One of the autopsy reports notes that the hyoid bone was broken, but it states that this occurred accidentally in the process of removing the throat. Do you attach any significance to these facts?

Yes. A fracture of the hyoid bone occurs more commonly in homicidal manual strangulation than in suicidal hanging. A pathologist performing the second autopsy should be able to examine the hyoid bone and larynx to independently determine if the fracture happened while the decedent was alive or inadvertently after death during autopsy removal of the larynx.

6. The government has accounted for the presence of rags in the mouths of the three prisoners by suggesting that they stuffed the rags in their own mouths to muffle noise which might alert guards, and that the rags were “inhaled as a natural reaction to death by asphyxiation.” Are you familiar with any other cases in which prisoners committed suicide by binding their feet, binding their hands, stuffing rags down their throats (and putting on a surgical mask to keep the rags in place), and while so bound, climbing up onto something to put their heads through a noose? In your opinion, would it be appropriate for a medical examiner to reach a conclusion that rags “were inhaled as a natural reaction to death by asphyxiation?”

I am not aware of any other case in which suicide was accomplished in this way, at least not with a gag in his mouth covered by a surgical mask. Occasionally someone ties his feet and wrists and then tightens a noose around his neck—but this is more common in accidental deaths during autoerotic activity than when someone intends to commit suicide.
Sully has more here.

Remember, when these men were found hanged, the Cheney-Bush Junta and its media camp followers said this was in and of itself an act of "asymmetrical warfare". I thought it showed real gall for Rodney King to be charged with "resisting arrest" when he tried to use his hands to shield what was left of his face from the LAPD's billyclubs, but this takes the cake and the ice cream, too. How dare those dirty Islamonazis die when being tortured and strangled!

On a related note, I see that water torture, endorsed with such enthusiasm by war whores, has now "trickled down":

USA Today
A Washington state soldier is accused of holding his 4-year-old daughter's head under the water in the kitchen sink mock "waterboard-style" because she would not recite the alphabet, The News-Tribune reports.

The Tacoma newspaper says Thurston County authorities filed a charge of second-degree assault of child against Joshua Ryan Tabor, 27, from the Joint Base Lewis-McChord.
There's more at the link. Fortunately, local authorities in Washington are handling the case, so this piece of shit stands a good chance of being locked up. Thank goodness Obama's Justice Department isn't on the case. This scumbag wouldn't even be charged, since that would involve "looking back".
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Edi »

Scott Horton of Harper's on the subject

Glenn Greenwald

Those articles both have a ton of links and they give good detail on what exactly happened there. The Horton article especially.
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
bobalot
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1733
Joined: 2008-05-21 06:42am
Location: Sydney, Australia
Contact:

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by bobalot »

Which dumbfuck actually believed the American military when they said they were "suicides", anyway?

Seriously, is anybody really surprised?
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi

"Problem is, while the Germans have had many mea culpas and quite painfully dealt with their history, the South is still hellbent on painting themselves as the real victims. It gives them a special place in the history of assholes" - Covenant

"Over three million died fighting for the emperor, but when the war was over he pretended it was not his responsibility. What kind of man does that?'' - Saburo Sakai

Join SDN on Discord
User avatar
Atlan
Jedi Knight
Posts: 598
Joined: 2002-11-30 09:39pm

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Atlan »

bobalot wrote:Which dumbfuck actually believed the American military when they said they were "suicides", anyway?

Seriously, is anybody really surprised?
Conservatives. After all, the Military wouldn't LIE, now would it? I mean, they're soldiers, above reproach.
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects."
R.A. Heinlein.
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Atlan wrote:Conservatives. After all, the Military wouldn't LIE, now would it? I mean, they're soldiers, above reproach.
Heh. Y'know, it's one thing to hear someone say this when you're a civilian, totally another after having spent a year in the Army and socializing with Soldiers every day. The conservative notion that Soldiers should be beyond reproach only becomes more ridiculous after having met the kinds of morons and assholes in the Army. Don't get me wrong I don't think a Soldier is any more likely to be a shitbag than a civilian, however, the Soldier can get his shit past civilians easier by falling back on the mystique and reverance that the common American has for them. This only backfires in two situations, extremely stepping beyond grounds or getting caught doing the shit by his battles that actually follow the core values or CoC.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Liberty
Jedi Knight
Posts: 979
Joined: 2009-08-15 10:33pm

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Liberty »

Atlan wrote:
bobalot wrote:Which dumbfuck actually believed the American military when they said they were "suicides", anyway?

Seriously, is anybody really surprised?
Conservatives. After all, the Military wouldn't LIE, now would it? I mean, they're soldiers, above reproach.
I've found several things about this conservative love affair with the military odd for a while now:
1. They're against every big government program except the military? What's up with that?
2. How are soldiers somehow perfect while no other group gets that kind of pass?

My dad was in the military (an officer, only in the military for five years after going to the academy), and when I started dating Surlethe, my mom said: "You know, I'm disappointed that you're dating a man who's not in the military. It shows something about his character, you know..." Meaning, something very bad about his character, of course. Honestly, what the heck? My mom's a bit POed with my brother, who is now in college and definitely not headed for the military.
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of. - Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10713
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Elfdart »

What's really funny is that not a single one of Dubya's Willing Executioners bothered to watch A Dry White Season. In that film, an inquest is held in the death of a black man in police custody in Apartheid-era South Africa. A lawyer representing the victim's family is cross-examining an agent of the Special Branch. The agent claims that the bruises and welts on the victim's back (that just happen to match the bars of his jail cell) were the result of the prisoner trying to escape, and that the victim hanged himself later. The attorney asks how a man could have hanged himself when, like all prisoners in Special Branch custody, his hands and feet were shackled (the corpse had marks where the cuffs dug into his skin). He also asked how a man gets wounds on his back while trying to escape -was he trying to fly backwards out of a window? The Special Branch thug's response: he and his men are fighting a war to save South Africa from the "terrorists".

OK, so maybe they watched that part of the movie.
User avatar
Aaron
Blackpowder Man
Posts: 12031
Joined: 2004-01-28 11:02pm
Location: British Columbian ExPat

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Aaron »

Liberty Ferall wrote:
Atlan wrote: Conservatives. After all, the Military wouldn't LIE, now would it? I mean, they're soldiers, above reproach.
I've found several things about this conservative love affair with the military odd for a while now:
1. They're against every big government program except the military? What's up with that?
2. How are soldiers somehow perfect while no other group gets that kind of pass?

My dad was in the military (an officer, only in the military for five years after going to the academy), and when I started dating Surlethe, my mom said: "You know, I'm disappointed that you're dating a man who's not in the military. It shows something about his character, you know..." Meaning, something very bad about his character, of course. Honestly, what the heck? My mom's a bit POed with my brother, who is now in college and definitely not headed for the military.
Theres a myth that those of us who serve do it out of love for our countries, a sort of service before self type deal. While it is certainly true to an extent, it isn't the whole reason. I suspect that is what Conservatives latch onto about the military. Of course, you can still serve out of love and be a complete asshole otherwise.
Last edited by Edi on 2010-02-10 11:49am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote tags
M1891/30: A bad day on the range is better then a good day at work.
Image
User avatar
Tiriol
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2038
Joined: 2005-09-15 11:31am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Tiriol »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Liberty Ferall wrote:
Atlan wrote: Conservatives. After all, the Military wouldn't LIE, now would it? I mean, they're soldiers, above reproach.
I've found several things about this conservative love affair with the military odd for a while now:
1. They're against every big government program except the military? What's up with that?
2. How are soldiers somehow perfect while no other group gets that kind of pass?

My dad was in the military (an officer, only in the military for five years after going to the academy), and when I started dating Surlethe, my mom said: "You know, I'm disappointed that you're dating a man who's not in the military. It shows something about his character, you know..." Meaning, something very bad about his character, of course. Honestly, what the heck? My mom's a bit POed with my brother, who is now in college and definitely not headed for the military.
Theres a myth that those of us who serve do it out of love for our countries, a sort of service before self type deal. While it is certainly true to an extent, it isn't the whole reason. I suspect that is what Conservatives latch onto about the military. Of course, you can still serve out of love and be a complete asshole otherwise.
Indeed. I have the dubious honor of working with someone who has served in the army (like a majority of Finnish males) and is certainly patriotic and loves his homeland, but is almost a fascist and looks down on just about everyone different - and God forbid if you happen to be a) a foreigner, b) an unemployed, c) someone who chose not to enter military service or d) happen to be left-wing (by Finnish standards). Judging by his actions, his time in the military has only worsened those qualities.
Confiteor Deo omnipotenti; beatae Mariae semper Virgini; beato Michaeli Archangelo; sanctis Apostolis, omnibus sanctis... Tibit Pater, quia peccavi nimis, cogitatione, verbo et opere, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Kyrie Eleison!

The Imperial Senate (defunct) * Knights Astrum Clades * The Mess
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Liberty Ferall wrote:
Atlan wrote:
bobalot wrote:Which dumbfuck actually believed the American military when they said they were "suicides", anyway?

Seriously, is anybody really surprised?
Conservatives. After all, the Military wouldn't LIE, now would it? I mean, they're soldiers, above reproach.
I've found several things about this conservative love affair with the military odd for a while now:
1. They're against every big government program except the military? What's up with that?
2. How are soldiers somehow perfect while no other group gets that kind of pass?

My dad was in the military (an officer, only in the military for five years after going to the academy), and when I started dating Surlethe, my mom said: "You know, I'm disappointed that you're dating a man who's not in the military. It shows something about his character, you know..." Meaning, something very bad about his character, of course. Honestly, what the heck? My mom's a bit POed with my brother, who is now in college and definitely not headed for the military.

Military training basically breaks down an individualistic self-identity and builds a group-based one (I can cite Cialdini's social psych textbook for that one). It makes for a good soldier, but what happens is that the person that goes in is not the same person as they one that comes out. They are (of course) more willing to kill, nationalism gets drilled in to varying extends depending on branch, and they have strong senses of group-loyalty.

This would be very valuable to a conservative politician, and it makes sense that they would venerate them at the same time they are manipulating those attributes. And of course the rank and file eat up the rhetoric (about service before self etc) and internalize it like the sheep they are.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
[R_H]
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2894
Joined: 2007-08-24 08:51am
Location: Europe

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by [R_H] »

Regarding the way that (conservative) Americans view members of their military, could it also be because it's a volunteer military, and thus relatively few have served or know someone well who has served? I wonder how they view those from foreign militaries, both conscript and professional.
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

[R_H] wrote:I wonder how they view those from foreign militaries, both conscript and professional.
Your average American Soldier is no smarter than you would expect from an American. If you say someone is conscripted they generally think of untrained rabble and excepting those that actually work extensively with their foreign allies there's a sense of anyone not American can only be second best. Hell there was a Soldier from Alabama in my BCT battery that didn't even know American was at war, he eventually graduated but not before trying to get chaptered out, his reason for being there was because the crime he committed he either had to serve time in the Army or go to prison.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Thanas »

I am going to bet that this will be swept under the rug by the war-crimes-covering-up-administration of Obama as quickly as possible.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
The Yosemite Bear
Mostly Harmless Nutcase (Requiescat in Pace)
Posts: 35211
Joined: 2002-07-21 02:38am
Location: Dave's Not Here Man

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

So when did we get Apartheit era South African guards at Gitmo?
Image

The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
User avatar
Ritterin Sophia
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5496
Joined: 2006-07-25 09:32am

Re: About those Guantanamo "Suicides"

Post by Ritterin Sophia »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:So when did we get Apartheit era South African guards at Gitmo?
Well it certainly couldn't have been before Jan 20, 2009. Otherwise a conservative would be responsible for something bad.
A Certain Clique, HAB, The Chroniclers
Post Reply