The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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Darth Holbytlan
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

Post by Darth Holbytlan »

mr friendly guy wrote:What I want to know is how the estimte the size of the universe at 93 billion Light years. I can understand that we should only see 14 billion light years, but I am interested in how they derive that figure. If anything it would be useful for sci fi debates on FTL speeds. :lol:
This seems to be explained here:
Scientific American wrote:What does mark the edge of observable space? Here again there has been confusion. If space were not expanding, the most distant object we could see would now be about 14 billion light-years away from us, the distance light could have traveled in the 14 billion years since the big bang. But because the universe is expanding, the space traversed by a photon expands behind it during the voyage. Consequently, the current distance to the most distant object we can see is about three times farther, or 46 billion light-years.
The 46 billion ly figure is the radius of the visible universe; 93 billion ly is the diameter.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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Darth Holbytlan wrote:The name of the short is "Powers of Ten". It should be pretty easy to search up a copy from that. (At the moment it's the top link when I search on YouTube.)
Sweet, thanks. I remember a non-narated version I saw at a museum (In DC I believe), wich actually went a bit further out on the macroscale.
cosmicalstorm wrote:That wasn't the speed of light though, they zoom past all the planets in a couple of seconds, you'd need to travel many times c for that to be possible. A video showing the journey out of our solar system at light speed would need to be at least hours long, a couple of months if you wanted to pass the outer asteroid swarms.
Of course, it'd be a lousy video if made in a proper timescale. The narrator actually explains the timeframe as the planets and stars zoom by.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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Surlethe wrote:According to Wiki, Canis Majoris is between 15 and 25 solar masses. The theoretical upper limit for a star is, IIRC, about 200 solar masses*, above which the star blows itself apart when fusion ignites.
The Eddington limit depends heavily on a star's metallicity, because massive stars with significant amounts of metals (astronomer's definition!) undergo a different, far faster fusion process than those that don't have metals in their core, and are thus much brighter. Today, the Eddington limit is much lower, about 120-150 solar masses, than it was in the past. In the early universe, it was as high as 3-400 solar masses, because there was nothing heavier than lithium anywhere.
The Spartan wrote:Okay, this is where my lower level of understanding comes into play. How can the universe be expanding faster than light? How do we know that it's doing so? How do we know the magnitude of it doing so?

Obviously, we can't observe it, so I would guess that there are calculations that require it to make sense?
adam_grif got it mostly right. Imagine a magical yardstick, and that every second, this magical yardstick will grow by one inch for every inch long it is, so that another inch-long section is inserted between every currently existing inch-long bit every second (I hope I explained that clearly). Now, before it starts expanding, I mark it in three places: both ends, and one inch from one end. It should be fairly easy to see what will happen: after one second, the two closer marks are an inch farther away from each other, but the ends are a another full 36 inches away. After two seconds, the two nearer marks are four inches away from each other, but the ends are 12 feet from each other, and so on.

This is basically what's happening with space in the universe, as more space is being created between existing space, so the universe expands like the yardstick does. If we make the yardstick cosmically long, and pull the same trick, the ends will at some point move away from each other faster than the speed of light, and the marks are carried along for the ride.

In the yardstick example, the recession velocity of an object is directly proportional to its distance from another (i.e., the rate of the yardstick/universe's expansion is constant). But what if that wasn't true? What if the recession velocity were proportional to a power of the distance, or an exponential relationship, or something? Well, then the yardstick/universe's expansion would accelerate. So, if we observe such a relation in our universe by looking at a bunch of galaxies, getting distances via Type 1a supernovae and comparing this with their redshifts (which tell us their recession velocities), then we can say the expansion of the universe is accelerating. And indeed, this is exactly what we see today.

As for what is causing this, we have no fucking clue. We call this mysterious force dark energy, which is astronomer speak for "I got nothin'." Seriously, we have absolutely no idea what the hell dark energy is. By comparison on level of knowledge, if dark energy is that guy you met 10 or 20 years ago on the street and said "hi" to, dark matter is your annoying coworker, and the rest of physics is your SO.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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I wrote:In the yardstick example, the recession velocity of an object is directly proportional to its distance from another (i.e., the rate of the yardstick/universe's expansion is constant). But what if that wasn't true? What if the recession velocity were proportional to a power of the distance, or an exponential relationship, or something? Well, then the yardstick/universe's expansion would accelerate. So, if we observe such a relation in our universe by looking at a bunch of galaxies, getting distances via Type 1a supernovae and comparing this with their redshifts (which tell us their recession velocities), then we can say the expansion of the universe is accelerating. And indeed, this is exactly what we see today.
I may have been wrong here, now that I think more about it. It depends on what figure is quoted as the rate of the universe's expansion. If it's the rate of creation of new space, then I'm wrong, because for the yardstick universe, that doubles every second. If instead the figure is how much new space is created for every unit of space already there, then everything I said is correct; however, I don't remember which rate cosmologists usually use.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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starslayer wrote:If instead the figure is how much new space is created for every unit of space already there, then everything I said is correct; however, I don't remember which rate cosmologists usually use.
That rate is the Hubble parameter, but cosmic acceleration, or rather deceleration (for historical reasons), is proportional to the second derivative of the scale factor, q = -ӓa/ȧ², which means a constant Hubble parameter (and hence an exponential scale factor a(t) = exp(Ht)) actually corresponds to an accelerating universe. This is approximately the scenario in cosmic inflation.
starslayer wrote:As for what is causing this, we have no fucking clue. We call this mysterious force dark energy, which is astronomer speak for "I got nothin'." Seriously, we have absolutely no idea what the hell dark energy is. By comparison on level of knowledge, if dark energy is that guy you met 10 or 20 years ago on the street and said "hi" to, dark matter is your annoying coworker, and the rest of physics is your SO.
I'm not sure that's true--at least, if dark matter rates a coworker status, then dark energy is at least an intern. The nature of dark matter isn't definitely known either; on the other hand, a Λ-based dark energy fits uniquely into general relativity (where it is almost literally a constant of integration), while from the point of view of quantum field theory, the condensate of absolutely any scalar field would qualify if coupled to gravity (although the only fundamental scalar field we have good theoretical reason to suspect is there is the Higgs field).
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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cosmicalstorm wrote:These videos, images and so on always makes me calm. I have the HUDF printed on a 1x1 meter piece of vinyl cardboard. I look at it every day without ever coming closer to understanding how huge and small it is.
I can't watch too many of those, since my feelings are totally opposite: they make me nostalgic and sad.

Nothing I will ever do will matter on those scales. I stay here, in my tiny portion of the universe, limited by ridiculously small distances I can actually travel with my resources. Even at great personal expense and effort, I will be unable to ever go further than around the world. A distance which is aburdly patethic, yet requires tremendous effort on my part.

Even if in twenty years I will burn this world to cinders, the memory will fade. Even our closest star system won't ever be affected by any action I undertake, and as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, we may as well not exist. Our entire species, entire evolutionary history is a meaningless speck in the history of the universe. It plays within timelines we are not even able to comprehend, throwing about energies that can kill us without even trying.

We've had this planet for millions of years, and yet we've accomplished nothing. The entire human species is completely irrelevant to the universe.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

Post by cosmicalstorm »

PeZook wrote:
cosmicalstorm wrote:These videos, images and so on always makes me calm. I have the HUDF printed on a 1x1 meter piece of vinyl cardboard. I look at it every day without ever coming closer to understanding how huge and small it is.
I can't watch too many of those, since my feelings are totally opposite: they make me nostalgic and sad.

Nothing I will ever do will matter on those scales. I stay here, in my tiny portion of the universe, limited by ridiculously small distances I can actually travel with my resources. Even at great personal expense and effort, I will be unable to ever go further than around the world. A distance which is aburdly patethic, yet requires tremendous effort on my part.

Even if in twenty years I will burn this world to cinders, the memory will fade. Even our closest star system won't ever be affected by any action I undertake, and as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, we may as well not exist. Our entire species, entire evolutionary history is a meaningless speck in the history of the universe. It plays within timelines we are not even able to comprehend, throwing about energies that can kill us without even trying.

We've had this planet for millions of years, and yet we've accomplished nothing. The entire human species is completely irrelevant to the universe.
I'm just happy to be a part of all of it, as the eons pass by my body will return to the stars some way or the other.

One of my funny little suspicions is that our entire observable universe might just a speck of dust on something bigger. In that case, would it make any difference if you managed to shape our galaxy into a big smiley face or if you lived a happy life on Earth?
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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PeZook wrote:I can't watch too many of those, since my feelings are totally opposite: they make me nostalgic and sad.

Nothing I will ever do will matter on those scales. I stay here, in my tiny portion of the universe, limited by ridiculously small distances I can actually travel with my resources. Even at great personal expense and effort, I will be unable to ever go further than around the world. A distance which is aburdly patethic, yet requires tremendous effort on my part.

Even if in twenty years I will burn this world to cinders, the memory will fade. Even our closest star system won't ever be affected by any action I undertake, and as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, we may as well not exist. Our entire species, entire evolutionary history is a meaningless speck in the history of the universe. It plays within timelines we are not even able to comprehend, throwing about energies that can kill us without even trying.

We've had this planet for millions of years, and yet we've accomplished nothing. The entire human species is completely irrelevant to the universe.
And the same could be said of any other intelligent species on another planet that hasn't traveled to the stars. What of it? And as far as being irrelevant, nothing I am likely to ever do will have much of an impact on the town of 4000 people in which I live, never mind the state, or the country. It also doesn't bother me much.

We've accomplished nothing? Sure, things aren't exactly marching steadily forward right now, but then again, modern humans emerged only about, what, 200,000 or so years ago. Recorded human history only goes back about 5000 years.

Then again, we went from powered flight to landing on the surface of the moon in less than 70 years. That's pretty amazing.

Really, don't let it get to you like this. None of us living may see huge advancements in terms of humans exploring space beyond our solar system, but, you know, some other humans probably will, someday. We're barely on the edge of what we are possible of achieving. There is a lot of work to do yet. :)
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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PeZook wrote: Nothing I will ever do will matter on those scales.
No, you won't. Neither will I or any other single man or woman. Or even the entire human race. But it doesn't bother me that I don't matter on those scales, since the scale I am more interested in is much smaller: the one with my friends, family and loved ones. Doesn't matter that I won't ever even register on those truly Universal or even planetary scales, on the other hand I would be crushed if I found out I never mattered to the people that I hold close and dear to me.

On the other hand, I do feel small and insignificant sometimes as I watch stuff like this. But to me that is so terribly awesome. The Universe laughs at my existence, and I can't help but laugh along with it while admiring its sheer vastness.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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I can't help but be reminded of Carl Sagan with these kinds of things: "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself." We don't effect anything on those scales, and we may never be able to either, but they ultimately wouldn't matter if there was no one around to admire them. Its a small role we play in this universe, but it means volumes to us (and to me) that we have the chance to play it.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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Formless wrote:I can't help but be reminded of Carl Sagan with these kinds of things: "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself." We don't effect anything on those scales, and we may never be able to either, but they ultimately wouldn't matter if there was no one around to admire them. Its a small role we play in this universe, but it means volumes to us (and to me) that we have the chance to play it.
Good words by Sagan. Not to take this tangent too far away from the OT, but this is in part why I support off-world colonization, space travel, and the like. We're insignificant specks in the cosmos right now, and perhaps that's all we'll ever be, but maybe - maybe- we can have a much bigger role to play, if we don't fuck it up on the way there. 200,000 years ago our ancestors were just exceptionally bright hominid hunters wandering in small groups across the surface of the Earth, and here we are, with the capability to leave that world, and inadvertently changing the climate of an entire planet. Who knows what the next 200,000 years will bring for humanity (or our post-human descendants), if we survive?
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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Darth Ruinus wrote: No, you won't. Neither will I or any other single man or woman. Or even the entire human race. But it doesn't bother me that I don't matter on those scales, since the scale I am more interested in is much smaller: the one with my friends, family and loved ones. Doesn't matter that I won't ever even register on those truly Universal or even planetary scales, on the other hand I would be crushed if I found out I never mattered to the people that I hold close and dear to me.
Obviously, smaller things like family and friends and work are important to me: otherwise I'd have probably gone insane and killed myself a long, long time ago. I just commented that I can't watch too many of those "scale of the universe" presentations, since my reactions go something like this: Awe -> Wonder -> Melancholy -> Sadness.

Fortunately, save for a random cosmic cataclysm, the size of the universe doesn't influence my everyday life all that much, so it can be safely ignored 99% of the time :)
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JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

Post by RazorOutlaw »

I've pretty much always stopped at the awe and wonder reaction. The significant moment came for me when I was sitting in a planetarium and the presentation I was watching gradually made its way from Earth to Pluto. That's when I realized how far those planets were from me and how vast "space" is. I still delight in looking at pictures from Hubble, among other sources.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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I always prefer to take a more anthropic view of things. The universe may be vast in scale, but none of it would matter if it we (or some other sentient species) were there to observe it. And even then, we only observe it out of sheer curiosity. On a practical level, much of the universe is just as irrelevant to us as we are to it.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

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There's also the pragmatic view: If the Unviverse is so vast, we will never run out of things to explore. Imagine how depressing it would be for humanity to eventually discover everything, and have nothing else to do.
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Re: The Scale of the Universe by Fotoshop

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

FSTargetDrone wrote:
Then again, we went from powered flight to landing on the surface of the moon in less than 70 years. That's pretty amazing.
It's all thanks to the magic of cheap and abundant fossil fuels. Without them, oil and natural gas in particular, no amount of human ingenuity could have done it in 70 years and even 700 years would be questionable. That is not to belittle the men and women who made it possible, but still the real test of our ingenuity will be to learn how to maintain industrial society, or at least some semblance of it, without the fossil fuels. Unfortunately technological ingenuity will probably not be enough, but some social innovations will be needed as well, and we have never been very good at implementing those.
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