Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Sidewinder »

Stas Bush wrote:Neither India nor Russia would sell PAK FA technology to the USA directly. To third parties - possibly, but supplying the USAF - no. That's idiocy of the highest order.
Russia may be unwilling to sell to the US, but SOMEONE provided two Su-27s to the US. (See this article from the August 1999 edition of Flight Journal magazine, although it doesn't say where the US got two Flankers. Maybe Yeltsin made the trade?) As for India... I can imagine an under-the-table deal where a US DoD bigwig tells his Indian counterpart, "We want to lease a PAK-FA from you, in exchange for billions of dollars in foreign aid." (Romania reportedly did the same, providing NATO with the Warsaw Pact's latest technology, under Ceausescu.)
Did you even read Russia's 2010 Strategic Defence Doctrine, Sidewinder? It says plainly that NATO is Potential Adversary #1. You must be really flying in the clouds if you think the PAK FA can be routinely supplied to the nation whose hardware it's intended to compete with.
I'd appreciate a link to an English or Mandarin translation of this article.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Sidewinder wrote: Russia may be unwilling to sell to the US, but SOMEONE provided two Su-27s to the US.
We bought them from Ukraine, and several more latter. We also bought a whole lot of other missiles and electronics gear from the Ukraine, since we knew it’d be Soviet spec kit and not the downgraded Warsaw Pact gear. Ukraine also sold a couple for resale demilitarized to any civilian who wants one.
http://www.prideaircraft.com/flanker.htm

But situations like this cannot be considered typical, at all.

Romania basically got anything that was worth jack shit; seriously. They never even got the T-62 tank or MiG-23! The only reason Romania was even allowed to be in the Warsaw Pact without being invaded was because Ceausescu ran the place as a police state that reviled Stalin. But a friend of the USSR he was not. Even Hungary by the 1980s was receiving superior weaponry. Romania actually had good enough relegations with the west that it actually had some western military equipment too, mostly French helicopters and trainers. So
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Pelranius »

Would the Indians be willing to let the USAF take a look at their FGFAs, in return for F-35 license production or other such privileges? I think the Pakistanis probably let the Chinese look at their early model F-16s back in the 1990s and we'll probably get a chance to look their J-10s if and when those fighters enter the PAF.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by K. A. Pital »

Pelranius wrote:Would the Indians be willing to let the USAF take a look at their FGFAs, in return for F-35 license production or other such privileges?
If the Indians get working serial batches of FGFA, which is apparently a more capable fighter if it lives up to the planned specifications, why the fuck would they need the F-35? Besides, I think there might be agreements with Russia about non-disclosure, etc. Not that I think the Indians would ever do something that foolish from a technology transfer viewpoint, when their most possibly adversary (Pakistan) operates U.S. tech.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Pelranius »

Stas Bush wrote:
Pelranius wrote:Would the Indians be willing to let the USAF take a look at their FGFAs, in return for F-35 license production or other such privileges?
If the Indians get working serial batches of FGFA, which is apparently a more capable fighter if it lives up to the planned specifications, why the fuck would they need the F-35? Besides, I think there might be agreements with Russia about non-disclosure, etc. Not that I think the Indians would ever do something that foolish from a technology transfer viewpoint, when their most possibly adversary (Pakistan) operates U.S. tech.
There are Indian think tank honchos are probably dumb enough to think that sharing FGFA tech with America will suddenly get them a 'special relationship'. I hope those morons never get into power or close to it (had a few unpleasant run ins with them before).
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Pelranius wrote:There are Indian think tank honchos are probably dumb enough to think that sharing FGFA tech with America will suddenly get them a 'special relationship'. I hope those morons never get into power or close to it (had a few unpleasant run ins with them before).
Let me guess: These "Indian think tank honchos" think very much like Robert S. McNamara, right?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by K. A. Pital »

Sidewinder wrote:
Pelranius wrote:There are Indian think tank honchos are probably dumb enough to think that sharing FGFA tech with America will suddenly get them a 'special relationship'. I hope those morons never get into power or close to it (had a few unpleasant run ins with them before).
Let me guess: These "Indian think tank honchos" think very much like Robert S. McNamara, right?
McNamara sold sensitive U.S. equipment to someone?
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Stas Bush wrote:Stealing the design does not mean they can produce the PAK FA 1:1. Metrics to imperials, oy the problem, not to mention electronics, etc.
I agree that trying to reverse engineer and mass produce the planes would be a horrible headache but...

Does our aviation industry still use imperial units? I wouldn't be surprised either way, because the technical professions in the US are becoming gradually more metric-oriented over time. At least the sciences are. Maybe the engineers aren't.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Stas Bush wrote:McNamara sold sensitive U.S. equipment to someone?
No, but the things he did- cancel the B-70 bomber and Skybolt missile, force the USN to redesign warships to use conventional powerplants instead of nuclear, and other programs the US urgently needed- diminished the US military's technological advantage over the Soviet's. Then there's his handling of the Vietnam War, which caused THOUSANDS of needless casualties among US forces, not to mention MILLIONS among the Vietnamese people. The harm he unintentionally inflicted upon the US, makes Benedict Arnold look like George Washington in comparison; or in Russia's case, make Andrey Vlasov look like Georgy Zhukov.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Using nuclear powerplants on all ships can be excessively expensive in service overhauls unless you wish to keep the ship class operating really, really lots of time. I do not see any connection between cancellation of B-70 and the U.S. Navy decision to plant conventional powerplants - the latter was a money-saving measure and not related to USAF decisions.

Neither do I see any "diminished" technological advantage.

Vietnam War was an unmitigated disaster, but pardon me if I don't give a crap about 60 000 American soldiers compared to the millions of Vietnamese who would've died regardless of whom had conducted the bombing.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Sidewinder »

Stas Bush wrote:Using nuclear powerplants on all ships can be excessively expensive in service overhauls unless you wish to keep the ship class operating really, really lots of time. I do not see any connection between cancellation of B-70 and the U.S. Navy decision to plant conventional powerplants - the latter was a money-saving measure and not related to USAF decisions.
Shep has more info on McNamara's decision, and the lie behind it.
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Written by Ryan Crierie on Monday, July 6, 2009 at 6:49 pm

So on the news today is the news that Robert Strange McNamara died in his sleep around 5:30 this morning.

Unfortunately, that’s five decades too late. The world will not miss the likes of him, a known fraudster and con artist.

You might think I am speaking too harshly of Mr. McNamara; but his most common tactic in fighting the bureaucratic wars of the 60s in the Department of Defense was to outright lie or make facts up.

In April 1963, the “First Navy” study was given to McNamara. It concluded that “nuclear propulsion does permit a significant increase in the beneficial military results for a given expenditure,” and that CVA-67 and all other future major warships should be nuclear powered.

Of course, Strange took that report and shoved it into his desk and ordered another study to be done.

The “Second Navy” study arrived on his desk in September 1963 and was quite detailed and focused on the lifecycle cost differential between oil and nuclear powered task forces. It concluded that there was only a 3% cost differential in favor of the oil burning task force; but the advantages of a nuclear task force were so great as to outweigh the slightly increased cost.

Advantages? Well…in the words of the Navy in 1964:
“a nuclear CVAN-67 is designed to carry ammunition, aircraft fuel, and propulsion fuel for conventional escorts sufficient to deliver at least 60% more airstrikes than a conventional CVA-67 before replenishing.”
So what does Strange do?

Why of course he rejects it totally, gins up some supporting data of his own from OSD, and asserts:
“I am absolutely certain of one thing, that the six conventional task forces are superior to five nuclear task forces.”
He then continued to reject any further analysis of the CVA(N)-67 issue by the Navy and ordered it to be constructed as a oil-burner in a memo to SecNav Korth on October 9, 1963.

One of the key scenarios OSD ginned up to discredit the nuclear powered carrier was that of a High Speed Run across the Atlantic.

The Director of Defense Research and Engineering in OSD, Harold Brown assumed that the conventionally powered carrier had 100% availability and absolutely perfect positioning of underway replenishment ships.

These assumptions kept the oil-burning CV only 4 hours astern of the CVN after five days of high speed running.

Unfortunately, Admiral Hayward, who did do high speed runs on both CVNs and CVs, reported that during his transit of the Atlantic on a conventional carrier, the sea was so rough that underway replenishment wasn’t possible, nor could he bring his escorts alongside for refuelling from the carrier.

This led to the carrier burning aviation fuel in its boilers to make its destination.

His influence was also not limited to just the US Navy’s Nuclear Ambitions, and the US Air Force’s Big Bomber Ambitions, but also impacted the US Army; in ways other than his gutting of U.S. Continental Air Defenses.

The Army had a Small Nuclear Power Plant (SNPP) Program designed to produce small nuclear reactors to power the DEW Line and McMurdo Station in Antartica, which would be more cost efficient than having to fly in huge quantities of diesel fuel, etc to power the outposts each year.

One of the reasons it died was Vietnam’s escalating costs forced a lot of “bonus” programs to be cut to fund the war; in much the same way a lot of good programs died to pay for Iraq.

But a major cause was outright fraud by McNamara’s OSD (Office of the Secretary of Defense).

Around 1960 or thereabouts, OSD decided to no longer factor in the cost of shipping the fuel for a conventional power generation system to remote locations in deciding the cost/benefit ratio of SNPPs vs Fossil fuel plants.

As you might imagine, this of course made SNPPs look very uneconomical compared to their fossil fuelled counterparts….which was precisely the point.

I could go on listing more things McNamara screwed up, but I think I’ll stop here.
Imagine the impact that McNamara's anti-nuclear bias had on the consumption of fossil fuels.
Stas wrote:Vietnam War was an unmitigated disaster, but pardon me if I don't give a crap about 60 000 American soldiers compared to the millions of Vietnamese who would've died regardless of whom had conducted the bombing.
McNamara's mistakes increased the scale of US intervention in Vietnam, and extended those efforts by YEARS. Imagine how many people would be alive today if:

1) The US minimized its efforts to providing training and materiel to the ARVN,

2) Alternately and contrarily, the US put MAXIMUM effort into defeating North Vietnam, ending the war within four years instead of nine.

McNamara didn't choose to help keep the US OUT OF the war; neither did he choose to help the US WIN the war. His half-assed measures kept American soldiers in Vietnam for YEARS, time that was wasted because the US military was on too short a leash to let it win the war.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by UnderAGreySky »

I'm with Stas here, Pelranius. If a scenario such as the one you suggest was possible, it would have already happened with the Su-30MKI that we operate right now. But in reality the IAF has been even more cagey about their capabilities - we did not switch on the radar in anything beyond limited navigation mode in either Cope India or at Red Flag (or at Rainbow in the UK) when they went two years ago. I'm not sure if the Air Force would reveal it even if promised goodies from the US, as we don't want any data getting to China/Pak via espionage. As it is there were rumours that the MKIs were thoroughly imaged on L-band at Red Flag so their RCS is now very well known; the rationale in allowing this is that the 30MKI is not far from the 27, and they're both humongous beasts - RCS and visual signatures were known devils when the IAF ordered them. We've put our own RWR sets on them (called 'Tarang') because ours are (supposedly) better at sniffing out radiation...

And no, other than outright espionage, no amount of wheeling-dealing will work; Russia will no doubt keep intellectual control as also production of certain sensitive things that India can't make just yet (single crystal blades/blisks come to mind). Which means in the event of an Indian deal, they will simply halt production. Currently the PJ-10 Brahmos missile cannot be sold to any country without assent of both countries. The FGFA will likely follow the same path.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Stas Bush wrote:Stealing the design does not mean they can produce the PAK FA 1:1. Metrics to imperials, oy the problem, not to mention electronics, etc.
I agree that trying to reverse engineer and mass produce the planes would be a horrible headache but...

Does our aviation industry still use imperial units? I wouldn't be surprised either way, because the technical professions in the US are becoming gradually more metric-oriented over time. At least the sciences are. Maybe the engineers aren't.
You still use Imperial Screws etc. etc. Obviously not.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Vympel »

http://www.take-off.ru/asp/PAK_FA_3rd_flight

They've painted her. The Russians love their schmick paint jobs.

Blue 51. Wonder if that's a clue - Su-51, anyone?
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by K. A. Pital »

51 is a board number. The Su-37 project had a board number 711. I doubt it's in any way relevant to the production index. Photos are cool.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Vympel »

Stas Bush wrote:51 is a board number. The Su-37 project had a board number 711. I doubt it's in any way relevant to the production index. Photos are cool.
I know its a board number, I just think they might be being clever :)
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Blayne »

It would not have been possible to win the Vietnam war for as long as the USA didn't want to risk Chinese or Soviet intervention should they have sent troops north of the DMZ.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

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Blayne wrote:It would not have been possible to win the Vietnam war for as long as the USA didn't want to risk Chinese or Soviet intervention should they have sent troops north of the DMZ.

What the hell are you talking about?
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Simon_Jester »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:You still use Imperial Screws etc. etc. Obviously not.
In the machine shop attached to the lab I work at, I can get metric screws easily enough, in the drawer right next to the Imperial screws. But that doesn't prove anything.

What I'm trying to say is that I honestly do not know the state of the US aviation industry on this issue. The reason I bring it up is that the fact that we use the Imperial system does not prohibit us from also using the metric system, from having easy access to fittings in metric scale, and so on. It's an inefficiency to do so, but compared to the many other hurdles in reverse-engineering a fighter jet, it's trivial. We know how to use the metric system; that's not the problem.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:You still use Imperial Screws etc. etc. Obviously not.
In the machine shop attached to the lab I work at, I can get metric screws easily enough, in the drawer right next to the Imperial screws. But that doesn't prove anything.

What I'm trying to say is that I honestly do not know the state of the US aviation industry on this issue. The reason I bring it up is that the fact that we use the Imperial system does not prohibit us from also using the metric system, from having easy access to fittings in metric scale, and so on. It's an inefficiency to do so, but compared to the many other hurdles in reverse-engineering a fighter jet, it's trivial. We know how to use the metric system; that's not the problem.
Eh what? Just because you know how to use it, doesn't mean the conversion is trivial. Do you plan to replace millions of decades old machinery and tools that are using Imperial units? Do you plan to retrain an entire generation of Mechanical engineers who are used to Imperial standards?

Hell, have you forgotten the incident involving the NASA probe where the Lockheed Martin team used Imperial while the JPL team used metric?

And never mind that, when I was working in a Physics lab, almost everything was in Imperial. Why? Because all the screws and fittings were Imperial. When you have a huge legacy of Imperial, the inertia to change will be so great no one will bother.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by [R_H] »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: Hell, have you forgotten the incident involving the NASA probe where the Lockheed Martin team used Imperial while the JPL team used metric?
Were they using Imperial and Metric for screws and fittings or to measure dimensions?
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Scottish Ninja »

IIRC it was to measure thrust, actually; one group used pounds and the other Newtons.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Simon_Jester »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Eh what? Just because you know how to use it, doesn't mean the conversion is trivial. Do you plan to replace millions of decades old machinery and tools that are using Imperial units? Do you plan to retrain an entire generation of Mechanical engineers who are used to Imperial standards?
I know.

To some extent, the retraining has already been done; people know how to work in the metric system, even the older ones. The retooling is far more of a problem, I definitely admit. But I'm not talking about converting all of American society to metric.

I'm talking about a specific engineering project, and what I'm saying is that I don't know exactly how bad the problem is- if we had to reverse engineer a jet that had been built in metric, it would be a challenge, but a critical one?
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Why would we want to reverse-engineer the PAK FA, anyway? The only ones who systematically reverse-engineer Soviet/Russian hardware are the Chinese, because that's as good as it gets for them. America's never done this, and I guess it doesn't need to anyway. What IS inside the PAK FA that America can't already build on its own? The PAK FA does not possess any technology that America lacks. There's no reason for America to reverse-engineer the PAK FA - there's NOTHING to reverse-engineer! Yes, it would be nice to grab a PAK FA, disassemble it, and figure out how everything works to learn its full capabilities - know your enemy and all that, knowing is half the battle, G.I. SHROOM. But, yeah, there's nothing super-revolutionary about the PAK FA and its technology is not ridiculously advanced or beyond American capabilities to replicate.
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Re: Russian fifth-generation fighter takes off - pictures

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Why would we want to reverse-engineer the PAK FA, anyway?
So we can jam its radar and datalinks. It wouldn’t be reverse-engineering though, just break it apart and see how it works and run endless tests. Not a full scale job of adapting its design to American production methods and then replicating it, which takes far more effort and has no purpose. A proper reverse-engineering job takes so long with complex items that whatever you get at the end will be obsolete by the time the work is done.

We did straight reverse engineer the commie PMP pontoon bridge though… off photograph’s no less.
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