SDN World 3 Commentary Thread II

[Thanas]

I am not sure about landing crafts myself, for example I am just rereading castles of steel and it mentions that the brits were building dedicated landing crafts with no research involved in 1914. Of course, these were steel barges with a swallow draft, but still.

[Steve]

When I say landing craft I'm thinking early versions of the stuff used in WWII, if I recall the ships used in WWI were different in how they worked.

[Thanas]

Yeah, I get that, but even in the early 1920s, before the start of the game (1924), landing crafts capable of landing one tank up to 16t weight were in existence. So I think we should be able to built those already (we should still pay for their construction instead of just saying we have them, though).

Of course, these capabilities are nowhere as good as the WWII, which carried up to 35 tons tanks. So we would need more of the earlier crafts to get the same capability etc. I would agree that we should research the 30+tons craft, but earlier examples like the one I mentioned should be doable.

[Steve]

Hrm, how should we represent that capability? Build them in brigade-carrying or division-carrying allotments? Or consider them attachments to LST-style ships to carry and deploy such forces?

[Thanas]

I think it is probably best to treat them like MAS - take their max weight and have people built them. Probably just one quarter of construction though - it is not like building them takes a lot of time, just slab a few steel plates together, add a motor, two small guns and pray the weather is going to hold.

LSTs were not in service back then iirc.

[Steve]

Hence LST-style.

So what's their weight? I presume you're saying build, say, 1,000 tons of them and then quarter the production from normal 1,000 ton ships but still at 1 IBP cost?

[Thanas]

Well, considering that each brigade would need at minimum 50-75 of them (100 max capacity + supplies), I'd say 1 point should suffice per marine brigade.

Of course, once you ship tanks etc. this goes up dramatically. For each tank needs his own craft, so landing a tank brigade would probably be an enormous undertaking.

[Steve]

Also unlikely to be done in most cases. Anyway, thanks.

Oh, how fast/big are in-game airships? I know Hindenburg, on its fatal flight, took 3 days to get to New Jersey from Frankfurt despite initial countervailing winds, but that was a 1930s airship design.

[Thanas]

Considering that there is no treaty of Versailles, this one is probably the standard german Zeppelin. As those were also sold to everybody who had money and given the fact that the Zeppelin factory is a private-owned company, probably everybody who has friendly ties or at least is not at war with Germany would either bought, licensed or built comparable ones (a bit lagging, though probably, as the Zeppelin company was always the technological frontrunner).

Anyway, the wiki link above is great and has under specifications also a good diagram.

[Steve]

Hrm, apparently 4 days for those. Contemplating if the President should just take the extra 4 or so days to go by sea liner or take the air route. In both cases it'd be out of New York, which would be reached by trans-continental train.

[Thanas]

The Vaterland, Imperator or the Bismarck should be able to accomodate your family if you chose by sea, seeing as how they are the largest ocean liners of the period.

Also, at least one of it arrives directly at Bremerhaven, so from there to Bremen it will be just a one-hour train ride.

Which reminds me, I have to write wedding preparations soon so I can get to Q3 1926.

[Steve]

The key is timing. A zep flight is apparently 3-4 days, a trans-Atlantic crossing is 6-8, and that is to Britain, not further on to Germany.

Hrm, I suppose if it's just 3-4 days it wouldn't matter. The desire is to arrive around July 7th or 8th to ensure delays don't destroy everything and to give a couple days to get settled after the voyage, whether by airship or sea liner.

[Thanas]

Ah, okay. In that case a liner might actually be a better choice, as it does not have to delay takeoff/will be blown of course due to storms/weather.

In other news, I have an idea for the research system - each nation gets one or two slots for tech 5-6 years before its usual time for free. I think that keeps a balance and no nation needs more than 1 or 2 groundbreaking technologies anyway. It also prevents the game from getting too tech-treey.

[Steve]

Hrm. What categories for such techs do you recommend? I figure metal-skinned planes and improved engines for cruiser tanks and the like are good for it.

[Thanas]

Well, that. I was thinking for ships, it might be specific technologies like Research: 20" guns, or Research: Early Radar. Because there is no easy way to just say "Advanced ship".

For air I am not sure we should be doing any of that, most real advances were only made in the late 30s, so introducing them anywhere before 1933 is a bit too much for my taste. Besides, almost all of us are scrambling to get airtech 4.

For land, I think we should also allow specific technologies in full like "Cruiser tank" or "Light tank with specifications as follows". I do not think getting lost in particulars like "Improved engines" and "metal-skinned plates" is much worth.

I also do not think this should be tied to economy, because to me those guys with lower scores already get penalized with fewer points, no need to also tie research into that.

[Thanas]

Hey, looks like the Cascadian and the German Navy will both have an Imperator soon within their mids.

[Steve]

Maybe 2 slots per country then? Each project takes 2 years to research. Categories so far proposed would be 20" Guns, Early Radar, Cruiser Tanks, Light Tanks With <insert special bit here>, and I honestly think "Amphibious Assault Craft" should be fitted, and when I say AACs I mean craft that can not only land on fire but maybe have their own support machine guns to provide suppressing fire, or perhaps heavier craft that can carry tanks ashore. Any other proposals?

Heh, noticed that eh? The Imperator is intended as a heavier Sovereign outfitted with anti-torpedo bulges among other new aspects, and named such to fit with the Roman naming theme of the prior class. It's going to fill out my 1927 naval program if I pursue that one to its full, with four Excaliburs as well, since I'll only have five 55-70 slips. This will probably be my last 6 ship program though, they're simply getting too big and expensive (this one alone will cost 362 IBPs). And it means I can outfit two full battleship squadrons with 16" armed ships, while the new Excalibur begins my use of 18" armed vessels.

[Thanas]

Maybe 2 slots per country then? Each project takes 2 years to research. Categories so far proposed would be 20" Guns, Early Radar, Cruiser Tanks, Light Tanks With <insert special bit here>, and I honestly think "Amphibious Assault Craft" should be fitted, and when I say AACs I mean craft that can not only land on fire but maybe have their own support machine guns to provide suppressing fire, or perhaps heavier craft that can carry tanks ashore. Any other proposals?

Yeah, that and similar categories. And early radar should take far longer. As for AACs, the early design had a few quarter-pounders or machineguns already. However, they were also slower, so maybe a combination of those things?

[Doomriser]

Why not make automatic rifle procurements based on army tech level? Tech level 4, all infantry have automatic rifles, Tech level 3, only standing military units have automatic rifles (reserves have bolt-action), Tech level 2, only elite units have automatic rifles, Tech level 1 and 0, no automatic rifles beyond private purchases.

Also, I am looking at naval torpedo research, air-dropped torpedo research, and television as categories.

EDIT: While it is difficult to believe that armies could convert so quickly, there are a number of examples of retrofitting existing bolt-action rifles into automatic rifles. You can look up the Huot and the Charlton, and the Dutch semi-auto conversion. But these were mainly intended for a BAR-type role.

The only true semi-automatic or select-fire rifles I know of from that era are the Mondragon, the Federov, the Meunier, and the Model 1917 RSC.

[Siege]

Experimental rocketry? It's probably too early for primitive rockets to be anything but novelty items though.

[Thanas]

I do not think we really should look at categories that closely and make a list of them. Let people submit their research to the mods and let them decided if it is a worthy category of its own or not.

As for automatic rifles, I am at army tech 4, however it is completely unrealistic to have the whole army use automatic rifles. Select units sure, with the older weapons gradually being phased out, but I am not convinced they would replace them all. Especially not because there were concerns that it would cause soldiers to blindly spray the enemy instead of shooting accurately.

[Siege]

I'm at Army Tech 5 and I certainly won't be handing fully automatic rifles to all my troops. It'd kill the supply lines for sure. The troops can have bolt-action or semi-auto rifles and back up the machine-gunners who'll do the heavy lifting for them. Only key units (Feda'iyun, Red Knights, stormtroopers, etc.) will be issued fully automatic rifles.

[Thanas]

^There is only army tech 4.

EDIT: Though you are correct. The units issued with semi-automatics are probably my Gardekorps, my Sturmtruppen/Pioniere and my marines, that's it. The rest will still use bolt-action rifles.

[Siege]

Nonsense. Mine goes up to 11!

[Thanas]

By which time I expect you to field the Fedaykin....

I shall soon construct the Sardaukar division - and this time, we will not neglect the training.