When did Americans start cheering for the robber-barons?

[SirNitram]

No kidding. A Mountain here has been removed from protected status as a historical landmark. What was it's history? Largest organized labor battle in history. Battle is literal: US Army Bombers were deployed to drop explosive and gas munitions onto the miners. Posse Committus My Left Asscheek. The fight ended when the miners decided to sound a full retreat rather than increase the bodycount on their side.

The acquittal of one of their members were acheived simply by rolling one of the unexploded munitions into court to display the flagrant insanity.

But no, it's on the chopping block now. Because it's all in memory.. Now believe The Company.

[The Spartan]

Gas munitions? What kind of gas did they drop?

[Serafina]

No kidding. A Mountain here has been removed from protected status as a historical landmark. What was it's history? Largest organized labor battle in history. Battle is literal: US Army Bombers were deployed to drop explosive and gas munitions onto the miners. Posse Committus My Left Asscheek. The fight ended when the miners decided to sound a full retreat rather than increase the bodycount on their side.

The acquittal of one of their members were acheived simply by rolling one of the unexploded munitions into court to display the flagrant insanity.

But no, it's on the chopping block now. Because it's all in memory.. Now believe The Company.

Wait, what?
They used the god-damn military against civilians?

Can you give me any more information - at least something i can use to look it up?

[Siege]

I believe Nitram is referring to the Battle of Blair Mountain. The US Government's reaction to the miners rebellion was... quite excessive, to say the least.

[The Spartan]

Yeah, I vaguely remember that from history class; we didn't spend much time on that era so I don't remember the details though.

I definitely don't remember the use of gas munitions. Given that this was just after WWI it could have been anything since, as I recall, gas had not been banned yet. So it could have been tear gas or mustard or chlorine or something else.

[Simon_Jester]

Serafina:
If we're talking about Blair Mountain, this was during the height of the post-WWI "Red Scare," more or less contemporary with the victory of the Communists in the Russian Civil War, and about two years after (for example) the Spartacist uprising in Germany. The entire Western world, from Poland to California, was terrified of the prospect that the socialists would take over the world... not entirely without reason, given how many reasons the lower classes had to want to rebel against the existing order.

So at Blair Mountain, the US government treated a violent protest as the start of a labor uprising and panicked; panicking governments tend to send in the troops. I suspect they were seriously afraid of the prospect that they'd seethe strike spread and lead to the rise of the People's Republic of West Virginia, or some such absurdity.

I've been thinking about this, and I'm of the opinion that this has a lot to do with recent international politics.

No matter how you look at it, the actions of the US in the middle east look bad. It is a powerful first world nation with advanced military blasting the hell out of third world countries, and causing a lot of collateral damage. I'm under the impression that, to lessen the impact on popular opinion, the US government has been using the patriotism card to justify these actions, to the point that many have come to accept overwhelming military action (shock and awe) as a defining trait of what being American is. And this is what I felt about the issue even before 9/11, afterwards we got the oh-so-nice "Either you're with us, or aganist us" that so much damage has done to the American psyche.

The Republicans do it openly; the Democrats play along because they haven't figured out a viable counter-tactic other than waiting for it to blow over.

[[R_H]]

Wait, what?
They used the god-damn military against civilians?

People back then tended to care a lot less about using deadly force against civilians than now (in the West at least). Right after WWI a union riot here in Switzerland was also put down by using soldiers firing into the crowd.

[Darth Wong]

I think we need to keep in mind that fascism was a powerful political force between WWI and WW2, hence these brutal actions which seem almost incomprehensible today.

People have short memories, as Schatten pointed out earlier. Even in countries which did not openly call themselves fascist, like the United States, there were a lot of popular fascist political ideas. It seems strange to say it now, but it's an historical fact that prior to the outbreak of open hostilities, Adolf Hitler had a lot of fans in the English speaking world.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Gas munitions? What kind of gas did they drop?

I believe Mustard, the coal wars were very nasty

[[R_H]]

I think we need to keep in mind that fascism was a powerful political force between WWI and WW2, hence these brutal actions which seem almost incomprehensible today.

People have short memories, as Schatten pointed out earlier. Even in countries which did not openly call themselves fascist, like the United States, there were a lot of popular fascist political ideas. It seems strange to say it now, but it's an historical fact that prior to the outbreak of open hostilities, Adolf Hitler had a lot of fans in the English speaking world.

What were the reasons behind Hitler's popularity in the English speaking world? The possible reasons I can think of are: eugenics, racism/bigotry and because he was an anti-Communist.

[Tiriol]

I think we need to keep in mind that fascism was a powerful political force between WWI and WW2, hence these brutal actions which seem almost incomprehensible today.

People have short memories, as Schatten pointed out earlier. Even in countries which did not openly call themselves fascist, like the United States, there were a lot of popular fascist political ideas. It seems strange to say it now, but it's an historical fact that prior to the outbreak of open hostilities, Adolf Hitler had a lot of fans in the English speaking world.

What were the reasons behind Hitler's popularity in the English speaking world? The possible reasons I can think of are: eugenics, racism/bigotry and because he was an anti-Communist.

Well, yes. You must understand that fascism and national socialism were not regarded as bogeymen or as ideologies of evil back then: many thought that they were the best defense against communism and disintegration of societies and countries (remember what happened to Imperial Russia?). People were scared of communists and of the idea that communism would spread to all of Europe and the rest of the world. Of course those who were violently against them would draw some sympathy. And eugenics was not usually frowned upon and even long after WWII it was practiced to avoid "undesirables" to be born. Racism was rampant in general and anti-semitism as well. And remember how powerful and strong Germany and Italy appeared to be when under the dominion of fascists and Nazis? That tends to attract people to draw conclusions.

[Simon_Jester]

It's not merely that fascism was a lot more popular in the interwar period than in hindsight. This wasn't even fascism by the standards of the era. This was a government that loudly proclaimed its allegiance to the idea of democracy*, one that fully intended to comply with election results, one that didn't idolize the leadership class the way the Italian fascists or the Nazis did... dropping mustard gas on mine workers.

That's how weird the period was: you didn't even have to be a Nazi to think that was a good idea, if you started out thinking the mine workers were a bunch of dangerous radicals who were rioting and preparing to rebel.

Come to think of it, the Nazis themselves wound up on the receiving end of a miniature version of the same treatment a few years later, with the Beer Hall Putsch. They didn't lose nearly as many people in the fighting, even in proportion to their numbers, and they got much less punishment from the courts, because they were right-wingers and not left-wingers, but it's still worth remembering.

This was before the modern attitude favoring nonviolent protests, on both sides: quite a few of the protestors saw no problem with going armed and preaching revolution, and the government saw no problem with shooting to get the protest to disperse.


*for certain values of the word "demos."

[starfury]

You guys ever read the book Dark Continent - Europe's Twentieth Century, it paints a picture of the entire western world is having absorbed in milder form, many of the ideas that the Nazi merely took to their logical end, scientific racism, eugenics, anti-semitism was the norm in both dictatorships and democratic countries and of course the Nazi themselves didn't even pioneer many of their ideas, pushed forward on large new scale and more radical forms, but they cannot be accused of starting them, not by long shot.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Wait, what?
They used the god-damn military against civilians?

Can you give me any more information - at least something i can use to look it up?

I believe that while President Harding THREATENED to send US Army bombers, the only aircraft at Blair Mountain were 'private civilians' dropping bombs and gas obtained from local armories. As I recall (and I may be wrong) one inert gas bomb was recovered by the miners and later used as evidence of the government's brutality in a trial, resulting in the acquittal of the chief organizer.

[SirNitram]

The US Army Air Corps certainly provided pilots for those bomb runs. Hell, one of the witch's brews was specially made: Bleach + Shrapnel. I really don't want to think about lye burns and corrosion on open wounds..

[K. A. Pital]

Private bombers dropping bombs on the miners? Did I hear that right?

[Ritterin Sophia]

I believe Nitram is referring to the Battle of Blair Mountain. The US Government's reaction to the miners rebellion was... quite excessive, to say the least.

Actually, whilst mine was a little more veiled, we both were. Suffice it to say, West Virginian history is short so to the West Virginians of any actual intelligence (IE those that care to know their history) it's still an extremely sore point. One of my most distinct memeories of my great grandmother is her crying when she told stories about one of her brothers who I later learned was killed in the skirmish. So, whilst I can't speak for other WVians, I'm a bit bitter about American politics and corporate dick sucking.

Private bombers dropping bombs on the miners? Did I hear that right?

Yeah, you did. What precipitated it was the company that owned the town had their mercenariesprivate security contractors murder Sheriff Hatfield of Matewan that was protecting the citizenry against the predations of the company, this caused the initial skirmish of the 'Coal Wars' the Matewan Massacre.

Here

If you're really interested, there's a movie about it with James Earl Jones called "Matewan".

[Samuel]

Private bombers dropping bombs on the miners? Did I hear that right?

I believe that was one of two instances where private airplanes conducted bombing runs- the other being the Tulsa Race Riot in 1921.

[Oskuro]

Well, of course, without government intervention, private companies will pick up the slack

As for Fascism, I think it is far from dead. Just as communism and socialism are used as negative buzzwords without actually understanding what they are, fascism is mentally linked to the recent dictatorships that enforced it, but without understanding what it is. Then you analyze many of the current ideals of a lot of people, and realize they have fascist leanings without actually knowing it.

[K. A. Pital]

Well, of course, without government intervention, private companies will pick up the slack

That's one of the most cynical examples of humour I've seen on SDN.

I believe that was one of two instances where private airplanes conducted bombing runs- the other being the Tulsa Race Riot in 1921.

There is a lot to learn, verily.

[d'Artagnan]

As for Fascism, I think it is far from dead. Just as communism and socialism are used as negative buzzwords without actually understanding what they are, fascism is mentally linked to the recent dictatorships that enforced it, but without understanding what it is. Then you analyze many of the current ideals of a lot of people, and realize they have fascist leanings without actually knowing it.

Exactly. When people, particularly Americans, think of Fascism, they immediately think of the most common and egregious example: Nazi Germany. Thus, in their minds, they don't have fascist leanings because the Nuremberg Laws haven't been passed and the cattle cars haven't been loaded up with the undesirables. The Italian brand is virtually ignored, due to both the rather inadequate American public education system and the fantastical incompetence with which it was undertaken by Mussolini.

[Serafina]

Well, of course, without government intervention, private companies will pick up the slack

That's one of the most cynical examples of humour I've seen on SDN.

But he is right - if you look into the labor strikes of that time, this is exactly what happened - private companies forming mini-goverments to do stuff the goverment would not.

Still, i did not imagine that it was that bad.

[[R_H]]

Well, yes. You must understand that fascism and national socialism were not regarded as bogeymen or as ideologies of evil back then: many thought that they were the best defense against communism and disintegration of societies and countries (remember what happened to Imperial Russia?). People were scared of communists and of the idea that communism would spread to all of Europe and the rest of the world. Of course those who were violently against them would draw some sympathy. And eugenics was not usually frowned upon and even long after WWII it was practiced to avoid "undesirables" to be born. Racism was rampant in general and anti-semitism as well. And remember how powerful and strong Germany and Italy appeared to be when under the dominion of fascists and Nazis? That tends to attract people to draw conclusions.

So basically, Hitler and the rest of the fascists had policies that were fairly mainstream and acceptable at the the time and they were ideologically opposed to communists, like the rest of the Western Europe and North America.

Private armies still exist in Europe, there's at least one in the Czech Republic.

European energy giant ČEZ operates paramilitary unit

Czech politicians reacted with surprise and embarrassment to the information that state-owned energy giant ČEZ, one of the most important players in the European energy market, has for years maintained and trained a special unit against those who were stealing electricity.

Finance Minister Eduard Janota is expected to be questioned about the issue by the parliament in the following days.

„Using a paramilitary group to enforce law is unacceptable. I will ask minister Janota about the issue," says head of the Defense Committee of the Chamber of Deputies Jan Vidím (Civic Democrats, ODS).The existence of the unit called NTZ (odbor Netechnických ztrát, or Non-Technical Losses section) was revealed after lawyer Jan Rytíř handed over to Czech media a 3-hour cut of the footage confiscated by police from the NTZ.

The footage shows NTZ members being trained in shooting, hand-to-hand combat, rapelling or survival in extreme conditions. Other parts of the footage show actual raids conducted by men strongly resembling a special police commando - dressed in black with large yellow "NTZ" signs on their backs.


Tragedy during a raid

The issue is already being investigated by police. According to the investigation conducted by the anti-organized crime division (ÚOOZ), the NTZ applied excessive psychological pressure against payment evaders.

The most disturbing part of the 3-hour edit shows the body of a man that committed suicide during a NTZ raid in 2005 in Poděbrady. Jiří Paroubek (Social Democracy, ČSSD) who was PM at that time says he was not aware that ČEZ had its own commando. Bohuslav Sobotka (ČSSD), who was Finance Minister in Paroubek's government, refused to comment it at all. „I have no information on this, so I will not tell you anything," said Sobotka when answered whether he was aware of the unit.

It needs to be explained that the Finance Ministry is the holder of the ČEZ shares and the minister is responsible for the communication with the energy giant.


Interior Minister: Payment evaders? No nice guys

Current Finance Minister Eduard Janota appears to be no wiser. „I can imagine ČEZ having a group that tries to disclose payment evaders or false purchasers. However, the law applies for everyone. I know no details of the case. If the information is relevant, I will discuss it with the management of ČEZ," said Janota.

However, the NTZ found a somehow reluctant apologist in the person of Interior Minister Martin Pecina. „These people (the NTZ) deal with people such as marihuana growers, who are no nice guys. However it is not right that the same pressure is applied against ordinary citizens," Pecina said, adding that the case is being submitted to the court.


"RWE or E.ON have them too"

„The problem is there is no law on private security companies which would regulate this sector that now employs more people than police," security expert of ČSSD Jeroným Tejc said. Even he however refused to further comment the issue.

Head of the supervisory board of ČEZ Martin Kocourek (ODS) who is also shadow Finance Minister says he sees no problem with the existence of the NTZ.

„Every energy firm has such a division, I believe that RWE or E.ON would be no different," Kocourek said to Aktuálně.cz.
He added that ČEZ has been repeatedly accused of illegal activities against payment dodgers. „We have had all types of audits, and no wrongdoing has ever been discovered," said Kocourek, who even believes that the footage in question is not authentic.

„That what has appeared (in media) is, according to my opinion, not authentic. We can verify it, but what will be the outcome of it?"However, Jan Rytíř says the footage comes out of the police file he was allowed to look into since he is the defendant's lawyer in the case. Rytíř said to Aktuálně.cz that he has a police protocol that proves that the DVD with the footage comes from the police file.

„I will be interested whether they carried guns. I will probably look at it, maybe," concluded Kocourek.

[Darth Yan]

actually anti-semitism were extremely popular in many countries (germany and austria). The nazis never hid their "kill all the jews" agenda. Many actually believed in it.

[Simon_Jester]

actually anti-semitism were extremely popular in many countries (germany and austria). The nazis never hid their "kill all the jews" agenda. Many actually believed in it.

...It's complicated.

Anti-semitism was rife throughout Europe and America at the time. The Nazis took this to extremes; they were more anti-semitic than practically anyone else, though not so much more so that it shocked people in the mainstream of the rest of the world's politics.

However, until the war had already began, the Nazis didn't switch their agenda from "persecute Jews unrelentingly and drive them from the country" over to "kill them all." Had it been known well in advance that the Nazis really would set up death camps and use industrial techniques to kill Jews as fast as possible... that would have shocked a lot of people.