Force sub: Na'vi for Ewoks

[Srelex]

What if instead of making contact with a tribe of Ewoks, the rebel strike force finds itself bumping into the Na'vi tribe from the movie, Ikrans and all? How would the battle with the Imperials proceed?

[Serafina]

Would it happen at all?

First, the Empire would have to ignore them as it ignored the Ewoks.
First, the Navi are way bigger than them - which might be enough to convince the Empire to eredicate them, just to be safe.
Second - would the Navi ignore the Empire if they start building their base? One better hopes that the Empire does not pick a "holy place" - otherwise, the Navi will get nuked if they try to attack the Empire.
Third - will the Navi decide to help the Rebels? The Ewoks only did so due to Leia (a trained diplomat) and C3PO - who spoke their language and was revered as a god by them. The Navi would not do that - can the Rebels persuade them to go to war, particulary since the Navi are not that trustfull to outsiders?

If the battle happens anyway:
-The Navi are yet again stronger than the already strong Ewoks - an advantage
-Similary, their bows are more dangerous
-However, they lack camoflage, and their size is a disadvantage, making them a larger target.
-Their tougher phsyique is not very usefull against SW-weaponery.
-They lack the sophisticated engineering of the Ewoks, so the AT-STs might be trouble.
-Since Eywa is not in this szenario, they do not have large predators to fight the AT-STs
-The Icrans are limited in their maneuvering, due to the terrain (forest). However, they are maneuverable enough to be used.
-However, they do not offer much - they can be shot down by blasters (they are quite big and relatively slow) and there are no aerial targets to counter. Their attack power is not greater than that of a Navi on the ground.

Overall, i think the Navi might actually do worse than the Ewoks. They lack camoflage and guerillia tactics (presumably, we never saw them using them). While they are more dangerous than the Ewoks, they still can not win in a straight fight.
Worst of all, they lack efficient weapons against the AT-STs, which will slaughter them. Unlike the Ewoks, they can not pull of the trick with Chewie, and they do not have traps to take them out.

So they will inflict greater damage to the Stormtroopers, but will still be overrun by the AT-STs. Even if they can take them out - the bunker door is still closed and they do not have an AT-ST to trick the imperials to open them.
So they can not fulfill their objective - which is a lost battle.

Also, it is quite possible that the imperials will take an attack by the Navi more serious (since they will take greater losses before dispersing to hunt them down) and call for reinforcements.


If they instead try an attack on the front entrance (presumably with greater numbers) - well, they stand no chance there, too. We saw TIE-fighters, shuttles and and AT-AT there.
With luck, an Icran can drop an rebel commando with explosives on the AT-AT and blow the neck - but the TIEs are going to slaughter the Icrans (even if they had their funky ECM, which they don't.)

Really, the Navi are not a good army. They lack coordination (their only means of coordination were stolen comlinks), while the Ewoks had their horns (primitive, but they work).
They did use a very basic ambush, but no sign of guerilla attacks (such as luring the enemy into further ambushes).
Their ground attack constisted of a simple charge - no ambush here.
They are strong and individually dangerous, but that's not enough - they lost in more favorable terrain against a weaker force, there is no way there are going to take on the Empire on it's own ground.

[Solauren]

If you Force-sub the Na'vi for the Ewoks, the Na'vi are out of the battle before the Rebels even get to Endor.

I recall reading from Time Tales (back when it was being updated), that there was at least one scouting mission to Endor prior to the construction of the Imperial Base.

The scouts that were sent gave a detailed report of engagements and encounters with the natives, including the species seen in the Ewoks cartoon and Ewok movies. This included the big ass giant 'Goraks'.

You'll notice the Empire built in the area with the least offensive local population. The Ewoks were considered harmless enough to just ignore, or to consider as 'pests'.

The Na'vi, being larger and physically more powerful then your baseline human, would not be.

The Empire would either have located the base somewhere else on Endor away from the Na'vi, or wiped them out with a few well placed Turbolaser shots.

Besides removing the reinforcements from the battle, this would also have the effect of turning a large area around the base into a wasteland the Rebels could not use for cover. A wasteland with possible hazardous byproducts from the turbolaser strike.

Even with the Na'vi support, as mentioned, without the megafauna backing them up, the Na'vi are no match for a Legion of Stormtroopers.
The Ewoks had surprise, concealment, and limited seige weapons on their side (ironically meant to fight off Gorak raids).

The Na'vi don't.

[NecronLord]

This is stupid. The Ewoks didn't win, the Na'vi won't either.

[Serafina]

This is stupid. The Ewoks didn't win, the Na'vi won't either.

Well, technically, the Ewoks DID win (they managed to blow up the bunker), but it was mostly due to Chewbacca snatching an AT-ST and a stupid imperial officer.
Since the Navi won't even take out a single AT-ST, even slaughering all imperials will do them any good - the doors are still closed, so they can't get in.

[Srelex]

I don't know about the Na'vi not taking out an AT-ST--if we assume that their leaders can communicate with the rebels well enough, isn't it possible that they may have some of the weapons systems of the walkers highlighted for them? After all, the Na'vi do seem marginally more communicative and dexterous than the Ewoks, so is it conceivable that they might be able to handle rifles and perhaps even weapons such as detonators if shown? I know the Ewoks apparently managed to grab hold of E-11s, but I'm not sure easy it would be for them to use them....

[NecronLord]

Well, technically, the Ewoks DID win (they managed to blow up the bunker), but it was mostly due to Chewbacca snatching an AT-ST and a stupid imperial officer.
Since the Navi won't even take out a single AT-ST, even slaughering all imperials will do them any good - the doors are still closed, so they can't get in.

The point is The Ewoks didn't win alone; a Rebel Commando Team won. Just like the Na'vi didn't win alone, Eywa did. The Ewoks had a better showing, but that's because RotJ deliberately doesn't show more than a token couple of them getting shot down.

[Vehrec]

Indeed. The Stormtroopers lost because they followed the Ewoks into the woods, abandoned their prisoners, and failed to provide adequate cover for their scout vehicles. The prisioners not only escaped, but seized control of vital communications and weapons that enabled them to stage a critical deception. Against heavier opposition, stormtroopers ought to fall back, dig in, and hold the bunker until the Death Star blows the entire rebel fleet to smithereens.

[Serafina]

Well, technically, the Ewoks DID win (they managed to blow up the bunker), but it was mostly due to Chewbacca snatching an AT-ST and a stupid imperial officer.
Since the Navi won't even take out a single AT-ST, even slaughering all imperials will do them any good - the doors are still closed, so they can't get in.

The point is The Ewoks didn't win alone; a Rebel Commando Team won. Just like the Na'vi didn't win alone, Eywa did. The Ewoks had a better showing, but that's because RotJ deliberately doesn't show more than a token couple of them getting shot down.

Well, the rebels are not excluded here:

What if instead of making contact with a tribe of Ewoks, the rebel strike force finds itself bumping into the Na'vi tribe from the movie, Ikrans and all? How would the battle with the Imperials proceed?

[NecronLord]

Of course, but they'll still get massively butchered. And I doubt the Empire would underestimate them and leave just three guys to guard the back entrance against Na'vi.

Assuming we're gracious enough to handwave away that the Na'vi aren't going to do so well in this environment, which for argument's sake we will.

[Darth Wong]

Yeah, there's no way they would casually dismiss the Na'vi the way they ignored the Ewoks. The Na'vi may be primitives, but they are much more of an obvious threat than a bunch of teddy bears. They would have probably wiped them out pre-emptively, at least for a large radius around the installation.

Really, the entire ROTJ fiasco was an obvious case of the Imperials being careless. They should have defoliated a space at least a few kilometres wide around the installation.

[Norseman]

Really, the entire ROTJ fiasco was an obvious case of the Imperials being careless. They should have defoliated a space at least a few kilometres wide around the installation.

But they needed to make the rebells think they had a chance, to draw them into the trap. Therefore they couldn't simply defoliate the area, or massacre the wildlife.

[Ford Prefect]

On the other hand, it's one thing to ignore Ewoks for the sake of the plan, and it's another to ignore Na'vi. I mean, for Christ's sake, the Na'vi are three metres tall. Even if you didn't know they could snap you in half like you're a dry twig and then toss your corpse around like a wet rag, you'd take one look and them and think 'gee, that blue dude there is fucking gigantic. We shouldn't mess around here'.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Na'vi make the Wookies look like rag dolls, man. Unlike the Ewoks, who all invariably look cute and adorable.

[PeZook]

Yeah, at first glance, the Ewoks are easy to ignore as cute teddy bears (until they smash your head in with a well-thrown rock, that is), the Na'Vi much less so due to stupid limitations of the human brain (the same thing which makes people treat tiger cubs as cute kitties rather than nasty killing machines).

[Serafina]

Really, the entire ROTJ fiasco was an obvious case of the Imperials being careless. They should have defoliated a space at least a few kilometres wide around the installation.

But they needed to make the rebells think they had a chance, to draw them into the trap. Therefore they couldn't simply defoliate the area, or massacre the wildlife.

You do not need to burn down the forest to wipe out the locals. Just send an army after them. Engaging them under your condition is way safer than doing so under theirs - and the Empire has enough firepower and skilled troops to wipe them out ten times over.

And it won't leave any huge marks that can be detected easily - mission accomplished.

[Sinewmire]

You do not need to burn down the forest to wipe out the locals. Just send an army after them. Engaging them under your condition is way safer than doing so under theirs - and the Empire has enough firepower and skilled troops to wipe them out ten times over.

No, but jungle and forest are notoriously difficult to detect opponents in. Even if you didn't get Vietnam'd you couldn't be sure you'd got them all.

As I understand it, the backdoor wasn't defoliated specifically because it was "hidden", and it took native scouts to find it - the rebels didn't know it was there.

The Emperor knew they would find out, what with the forseeing and all, and laid a trap by having a legion poised to swoop down.

"An ambush, if discovered and promptly surrounded, will repay the intended mischief with interest." - Vegetius

Problem is, the Ewoks ambushed the Emperor's ambush of the rebel ambush.

[Darth Wong]

You do not need to burn down the forest to wipe out the locals.

You need to burn down part of the forest in order to clear defensive lines of fire. Remember that the natural defender's advantage is negated in the absence of visibility.

There are a lot of things they just didn't bother doing, and it's clearly because of Imperial laziness, not just writer's laziness (meaning that the writers deliberately wrote them to be overconfident). If Endor had anywhere near the same level of defensive preparations as Hoth, it would have been virtually impossible to assault without a very large well-armed force.

[Serafina]

You do not need to burn down the forest to wipe out the locals.

You need to burn down part of the forest in order to clear defensive lines of fire. Remember that the natural defender's advantage is negated in the absence of visibility.

There are a lot of things they just didn't bother doing, and it's clearly because of Imperial laziness, not just writer's laziness (meaning that the writers deliberately wrote them to be overconfident). If Endor had anywhere near the same level of defensive preparations as Hoth, it would have been virtually impossible to assault without a very large well-armed force.

But if you wipe out the natives, you do not have to worry about defenses as much.

Remember, the whole thing was one giant trap. Appearing to be weak at critical spots was a key part of it. Erecting massive fortifications is exactly beneficial to that goal.