Battlestar Galactica vs Honor Harrington

[Terralthra]

Doesn't Chekov take the Enterprise to warp to avoid a BoP torpedo in Star Trek V?

He was warping away from engaging with the Bird of Prey at all. The command to go to warp was given before the torpedo was even launched, if I recall correctly.

[Batman]

Of course, they might not be able to make jumps on such short notice, even when they go into action expecting to need to. I don't know. Does it normally take them more than a minute or so of prep time to go to warp? How fast can they make a double jump?

I don't remember ever hearing a duration for warp cold-start procedures but Trek seems to habitually keep the drive idling anyway as it is never more than a few moments from the 'Set a course for Magrathea, Warp Factor x' to the jump to warp.
Also, they seem to do at least preplanned double jumps with scant seconds spent at impulse in-between(touch-and-go-downwarping).
Also, given the way warp drive works I don't see why the shouldn't be able to just initially jump 'thataway' and change course later once they've gotten safely away from the missiles (even if they have to go impulse again for any significant course changes).

[Connor MacLeod]

Let's clarify something about Honorverse point defense:

“Skipper! Those LACs have fired on Troubadour!” Lieutenant Cardones blurted. And then— “Missiles incoming! Impact in four-five seconds—mark!”
Honor’s head whipped up in pure disbelief. Fired? That was insane!
“Point defense free! Sound general quarters!”
Ensign Wolcott stabbed the GQ button at Cardones’ elbow. The tac officer was too busy; he’d anticipated his captain’s orders, and his hands were already flying across his panel.
“Zulu-Two, Chief Killian!” Honor snapped.
“Aye, aye, Ma’am. Executing Zulu-Two.”
Killian sounded almost detached, not with professional calm, but as if the real shock hadn’t hit him yet, yet his response was almost as quick as Cardones’. Fearless squirmed into evasive action—not that she had the base velocity to make it very effective—and Honor heard the pop of pierced upholstery as Nimitz’s claws sank into the back of her chair.
A distant corner of her mind remembered a hesitant puppy of a junior-grade lieutenant, but there was no sign of that uncertain young officer today. Rafael Cardones had his priorities exactly right, and the green standby light of the point defense lasers blinked to crimson even before he brought the sidewalls up. There was no time for counter missiles—only the lasers had the response time, and even they had it only under computer command.
The sidewall generators began spinning up just as the lasers opened fire. An incoming missile vanished, then another and another as the computers worked their way methodically through their assigned threat values. More missiles ripped apart as Apollo’s point defense opened up on the ones speeding towards her, and Honor gripped the arms of her command chair while Nimitz’s tail curled protectively about her throat.
She’d screwed up. She couldn’t conceive of any reason for Grayson to be doing this, but she’d let them do it. Dear God, if they’d held their fire only another twenty seconds, not even Rafe Cardones’ reactions could have saved her ship! Three wretched little LACs from a planet so primitive it didn’t even have molycircs would have annihilated her entire squadron!
But they hadn’t held their fire, and her thundering pulse slowed. The Grayson missiles’ low acceleration not only lengthened their flight times but made them easier targets, and they didn’t have laser heads. They needed direct hits, and they weren’t going to get them. Not against Rafe Cardones.

In this context the Fearless a heavy cruiser was just barely able to stop Masadan LAC missiles within 45 seconds - 20 seconds less than that was considered an effectively impossible intercept. Range at this point was just under a light second. Lesson: Time is a huge factor in point defense, and alot of the effectiveness actually depends upon time to track and anticipate targets - the more data point defense gets the better it is (of coures the more time spent he less time available to intercept.) the actual ACTIVITY of point defense (launching CMs, firing lasers) is actually shorter but they just don't automaticlaly spring into action at full effectiveness. Range, missile acceleration and velocity, and the quantity/quality of sensor information matter.

Now, ST photorps have demonstrated slower velocities (alghouth how their acceleration stacks up I dunno I've never seen exact figures for photorp yield) but I'd say acceleration isnt as big an issue as detectability. Photorps won't have much (if any) grav signature lacking that wedge, and that's going to be a big disadvantage for the Honorverse side. not totally bad, since they'd still be within radar/lidar envelope

While we're on PD Lasers, did someone mention from the Saganami series that point defense lasers have a refire rate of one per 2 seconds, and that only because the lasers ARE mounted in clusters (1 per sixteen seconds IIRC its just that the clusters fire one after another). There's also the fact that (even by DW's own admission) the Age of sail like approach of Impeller makes them slightly more manuverable than a brick. Later generations fixed this somewhat (Hexapuma surprised a bunch of pirates midway through Shadows of Saganami and did a 180 degree turn rapidly for them) but its still not terribly good as I recall. Then there's the whole "need to do turnovers to slow down'...

So arguably the Fed ships have a potential for better mobility (they're at least as agile as SW ships in terms of acceleration, nevermind warp drive) and that HV point defense will be less effective (although to an unkonwn degree) against photorps. Of course, at any LIKELY range they'll engage at (light seconds tops) they'll be well within energy weapons range, and they have to worry about getting hit by those, since they're a bigger threat than missiles (although things can be done to minimzie that, arguably.) They could also engage beyond effective gun range, but that just improves the odds of point defense nailing photorps, and it still only takes a few hits to get lucky unless they spam their entire payload (which is a gamble). Minus photorps its not likely that the FEds have anything that could get through honorverse defenses, which is of course the major disadvantage.

So basically it comes down to range and detectability, and how close the FEddies are willing to risk getting in order to score hits.

[Serafina]

Didn't that incident include the need to bring the PD online in the first place?

[Simon_Jester]

Connor: I agree with pretty much all of this, and a lot of it informed what I was saying on the past page or two. The one observation I'd like to make is that I don't see photon torpedoes even making a dent in Honorverse sidewalls or wedges- they have to fire through an open aspect or they aren't going to get effective shots in at all.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm also going to add that HV contact nukes for some bizarre reason do not seem to behave like real life nukes or an antimatter reaction - at least not totally. They seem to have a fairly significant plasma and blast component (which I can at best rationalize as being like an Omnidirectional Casaba howitzer type charge, so the uselessness of "nukes" against a HV ship has to be mitigated by that somewhat.

ST photorps as I recall can be shaped charge, although the tradeoff there I dont know (yield probably is one, unless they give up some other facility like range or tracking/engine power to keep yield). In any event, due to the nature of matter-antimatte detonations, there's a distinct possibility (depending on how its configureda nyhow) that part or even most of the yield will be lost in proximity detonations as the main site's entry on photorps illustrates (eg "not all reaction products are dangerous") On the other hand, despite the fact they toss around multi-megaton warheads (even for laser heads), only a part of that yield typically actually damages the ship (in addition ot the inefficiencies and energy lost in laser heads, even with the "shaped charge" bit from Storm from the Shadows, they tend to produce large numbers of X-ray bolts, and only a small number of these ever hit a ship.) And energy weapons as I recall from one o fthe short stories tend to behave like Shadow slicers WRT to targeting and hitting (IE they fire a broadside and also hope a few hit through a sidewall, even tracking through space to hope to gain a few hits as I recall the gunnery excerises aboard the Gauntlet.)

So, it goes both ways.

[Connor MacLeod]

Didn't that incident include the need to bring the PD online in the first place?

Uh, only to flip them from standby to ready - they were only under computer control - the quote makes that explicit. Are you telling me its going to take their PD computers nearly a minute, or more than half a minute, to merely get ready the minute tells them "okay its okay to go active?"

[Nephtys]

Didn't that incident include the need to bring the PD online in the first place?

Uh, only to flip them from standby to ready - they were only under computer control - the quote makes that explicit. Are you telling me its going to take their PD computers nearly a minute, or more than half a minute, to merely get ready the minute tells them "okay its okay to go active?"

That incident is also a special case. It's a convoy escort detachment of 3 ships, returning to a friendly star system in a time of peace.

Being able to take out inbound missiles with 45 seconds of warning from a group of 'friendly' ships is pretty impressive. In an actual combat situation, PD performance is going to be a lot better.

[Connor MacLeod]

Didn't that incident include the need to bring the PD online in the first place?

Uh, only to flip them from standby to ready - they were only under computer control - the quote makes that explicit. Are you telling me its going to take their PD computers nearly a minute, or more than half a minute, to merely get ready the minute tells them "okay its okay to go active?"

That incident is also a special case. It's a convoy escort detachment of 3 ships, returning to a friendly star system in a time of peace.

Being able to take out inbound missiles with 45 seconds of warning from a group of 'friendly' ships is pretty impressive. In an actual combat situation, PD performance is going to be a lot better.

Erm yeah. considering that normally the engagement ranges go over millions or tens of millions of km with missiles that have active wedges, its not really a big surprise that the performance might be different. Obviously when the range is shorter they have less time to track and fire, and thus point defense degrades - I was highlighting that point defense performance is highly dependent upon the circumstnaces to which the HV ship is subjected to.

[TabascoOne]

So in short, that passage proves that under conditions of total surprise an honorverse ship needs around 45 seconds to manage a successful intercept of any kind. Ok, fair enough.

But I think what Nephys was getting at was that unless said ship is in a friendly star system on normal cruising, that isn't going to apply. With defenses up and the ship at battle stations, I have to agree that the time would be significantly shorter. Granted, it probably doesn't take much time for the computer to release the laser clusters to fire, but I have to think that they need some time to charge the capacitors before being able to. Modern warships don't travel in friendly waters with their guns loaded after all.

[Simon_Jester]

Part of the question is tracking time. You not only need to have the lasers charged, you need to know where the target is, and localizing it is going to limit your response time.

[Connor MacLeod]

So in short, that passage proves that under conditions of total surprise an honorverse ship needs around 45 seconds to manage a successful intercept of any kind. Ok, fair enough.

But I think what Nephys was getting at was that unless said ship is in a friendly star system on normal cruising, that isn't going to apply. With defenses up and the ship at battle stations, I have to agree that the time would be significantly shorter. Granted, it probably doesn't take much time for the computer to release the laser clusters to fire, but I have to think that they need some time to charge the capacitors before being able to. Modern warships don't travel in friendly waters with their guns loaded after all.

Oh, bullshit on the "total surprise" - you pretend as if they were completely caught unawares by the enemy, when the only surprising thing was that they were fired upon. That too isn't even much of a surprise, as Honor actually berates herself for letting it happen - it has more to do with arrogance than anything else. and this was an "ideal' condition for them - nukes on slower missiles basically.

It demonstrates an upper limit capacity for a particular situation, but that in itself is the point. The usual masturbation regarding Honorverse point defense and how "good" it is is entirely a contextual/circumstantial matter - people always hold up the "large number of missiles" they have to deal with, but they ignore all the other factors that dont neccesarily apply across the board, which is fucking dishonest AND stupid.

As far as the "capacitors charging up" it wasn't even mentioned so that's speculation on your part (yeah lets go "point defense free" while the lasers are still charging. Fucking brilliant. Even though point defense really isn't all that great a threat as a rule) - even if we humored you in that regard, that simply means a wait of sixteen seconds, tops, which leaves a good nine seconds of time for the much vaunted point defense to try to stop missiles that are both slower moving and need to get much closer to hit their targets. They'd get off a good 4-5 shots easily per point defense mount, and during that entire "charging" time their sensors would still have been tracking and acquiring information on the missiles. Nevermind countermissiles. But of course again you exaggerate matters, while the Graysons at this point were "technically" friendly, there was enough hostility from various incidents to make them wary - and there were still the Masadans. Again the thing that actually hampered them in that situation was, as Honor noted, arrogance not as much as surprise (which maybe lasted all of a moment.)

[Simon_Jester]

It demonstrates an upper limit capacity for a particular situation, but that in itself is the point. The usual masturbation regarding Honorverse point defense and how "good" it is is entirely a contextual/circumstantial matter - people always hold up the "large number of missiles" they have to deal with, but they ignore all the other factors that dont neccesarily apply across the board, which is fucking dishonest AND stupid.

In fairness, they don't exactly suck at most other factors. They cope well with what is a pretty hostile electronic warfare environment by science fiction standards, they have extremely long engagement range, and (for the lasers, at least) impressive accuracy- they're scoring PD kills on targets the size of an ICBM at... I'm not sure what the maximum range is, but even the minimum range is roughly equal to the distance from Earth to geosynchronous orbit.

It's only when they're up against something that can teleport into attack range and lob a salvo from 30 seconds out that they have problems, because target acquisition time is not one of their strong suits.

[Connor MacLeod]

In fairness, they don't exactly suck at most other factors. They cope well with what is a pretty hostile electronic warfare environment by science fiction standards, they have extremely long engagement range, and (for the lasers, at least) impressive accuracy- they're scoring PD kills on targets the size of an ICBM at... I'm not sure what the maximum range is, but even the minimum range is roughly equal to the distance from Earth to geosynchronous orbit.

I never said they sucked in "other factors" did I? I in fact explicitly pointed out it was a upper limit for a particular situation. The efficiency of their point defense is ENTIRELY situation dependent, like any discussion of "accuracy" is going to be. This same bullshit crops up anytime you see a trekkie scream "Stormtrooper accuracy suxors!" even though they don't bother to actually quantify or analyze it.

Fact of the matter is my point is entirely consistent with how things are done in the Honorverse. The longer a ship has to track on incoming missiles, the better its point defense data will be - data from which the targeting computers derive their extrapolations nad predictions about missile behaviour, and upon which they base their targeting upon. Conversely, less data that there is, the less effect there is. And thus time is a BIG factor in that and time is dependent upon factors like acceleration, velocity, range, manuverability, Sensor quality and EW, etc.

I could have other examples to draw on to justify that point, even within THOTQ itself (Theismen makes some poitns regarding this, I've had it pointed out to me not so long ago in fact) but I dont really need to be all that explicit to point out a simple fact like "accuracy isn't absolute" do I?

It's only when they're up against something that can teleport into attack range and lob a salvo from 30 seconds out that they have problems, because target acquisition time is not one of their strong suits.

There's still a possibility of the HV ship handling that well - the Trek ship has to face off against their chasers (which while less numerous are typically more poweful), and even then the torp has to stop before hitting the particle shielding or it risks being destroyed (and rad shielding will also be a damper.) So a "down the throat/up the kilt" shot isnt neccesarily a game winner even without bow walls or bucklers and massively over-exaggerated point defense capacity.

Of course, if this were Andromeda, the situation might be different

[Simon_Jester]

I never said they sucked in "other factors" did I?

All right, all right, don't shoot! I surrender!

[staggers out of smoldering bunker, waving white towel on a stick]

It's only when they're up against something that can teleport into attack range and lob a salvo from 30 seconds out that they have problems, because target acquisition time is not one of their strong suits.

There's still a possibility of the HV ship handling that well - the Trek ship has to face off against their chasers (which while less numerous are typically more poweful), and even then the torp has to stop before hitting the particle shielding or it risks being destroyed (and rad shielding will also be a damper.) So a "down the throat/up the kilt" shot isnt neccesarily a game winner even without bow walls or bucklers and massively over-exaggerated point defense capacity.

To be sure. I think they'd have problems, but not necessarily fatal ones by any means. I've been focusing on it mainly because it's the only way I can imagine Trekkers doing any damage to Honorverse ships, possibly even without getting blasted into confetti in the process.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh I didnt mean to sound harsh, its just that unless someone fuck's up, there's no real way one side can hurt the other. HV ships are slow as fuck compared to Trek ships (both slower than light and faster than light) but they have enough firepower to threaten a Trek ship (depending on calcs) and the way their defenses are organized there is almost no way a Trek ship can easily or safely damage or destroy the HV ship back. The HV ship though has no hope of actually bringing a ST ship to battle either, since its method of missile spamming has no hope of catching a Trek ship and they can't keep the ship within weapons range if the ship chooses to run.

Basicaly its a stalemate unless the Trek ship risks getting in close, and to me (and a half competent captain) it wouldnt stand a very good chance close up.

Now, in a larger battle things might be different.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes. The Trekkers can escape at will, but can't hurt the enemy easily or safely, if at all.

The catch is that, as I see it, that sort of standoff favors the Honorverse fleet. They can't force Trek ships to give battle in open space, but they can barge into range of something important and start missile-ing it into oblivion. And their own fixed defenses tend to have the same kind of highly resistant gravitic shielding as their mobile platforms. So they can secure the space around their own planets and major space installations against Trek powers far more effectively than the Trek powers can against them.

So while the Trek ships can choose whether to engage or break off in any given battle, they're ultimately in trouble, strategically. The Manticorans/Peeps/Sollies/whoever can just jump into a system and start plodding towards the planet, ignoring Trek ships that pursue at long range and blasting them out of the way at short range. Then they get into firing positions above the planet, and the missile spam begins in earnest. As long as they secure their own rear with decently armed ships or forts with their own wedges, they'd be hard pressed to lose.

Ship to ship it's a stalemate; nation to nation it's a win for the Honorverse unless the Trekkers can work out a way to do damage to enemy combat ships at an acceptable rate of attrition. Which I, so far, haven't been able to do.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The catch is that, as I see it, that sort of standoff favors the Honorverse fleet. They can't force Trek ships to give battle in open space, but they can barge into range of something important and start missile-ing it into oblivion. And their own fixed defenses tend to have the same kind of highly resistant gravitic shielding as their mobile platforms.

Actually, in many cases even better; serious fixed defenses* devote the space necessary for bubble sidewalls. So they can bubble up, and there will be no unshielded area for a Trek ship to warp in and attack. And "fixed" is a relative term; as I understand it forts can still maneuver with their own wedges; but being too big for inertial compensators means that they have to rely on their "grav plates" to keep from squashing their crews, which means a much lower top acceleration.



* As opposed to the massive but amateurishly designed State Sec defenses around Cerberus, which were highly vulnerable due the lack of such sidewalls