Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Elfdart]

You're seriously overthinking this and trying to create bigger problems than there actually were. The stakes really aren't that obscure. First of all, you didn't mention that if Darth Maul finds them then he's going to try to fucking KILL Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan. There go the main protagonists of the movie. After he kills our heroes and hauls the queen back to Naboo, the corporate assholes would get what they want, or at least the government's ability to stop them would be undermined. Also, that evil-looking wizard guy who's pulling the strings will see more success in his conspiracy.

Why? Why does Sidious want to drag the Queen back to Naboo? How will that benefit his plans?

Having the Queen sign the treaty gives a kind of bullshit legitimacy to the TF's invasion and occupation, which the skittish Federation wants to make things "legal". They can hold up the new treaty and say "Looky here, she invited us to Naboo and it's all legal!" This helps Palpatine in three ways:

1) The TF (who denied committing any aggression against Naboo) will be on record as attacking the hapless planet, and the entire Republic will have the document to prove it.

2) The Queen and the rest of Naboo's government would be locked up or dead -out of Palpatine's way.

3) Palpatine can play the victim for all it's worth: "Look what they did to my home planet! "
Killing an adolescent girl will really drive home the point, just as the execution of Lady Jane Grey helped earn Queen Mary the nickname "Bloody Mary".

None of this can happen if the Trade Federation gets cold feet (which they were showing less than a minute after the Jedi arrived) and chickens out of attacking and occupying Naboo.

[Anguirus]

And the Jedi Council told us virtually nothing about the Sith beyond the fact that they'd been extinct for a millennium.

And the fact that they were dark warriors who everyone thought was bad news. We also find out later in the same movie that they want revenge against the Jedi, and that there are always only two.

What more could one or two minutes of pointless exposition have accomplished? This is Star Wars: the Sith are Bad People who do Bad Things, just like the Empire in the later movies.

(Mind you, they could have cut five minutes out of the podrace, but that at least put butts in seats and looked cool.)

[Galvatron]

What more could one or two minutes of pointless exposition have accomplished?

The same thing Ben's "pointless exposition" in ANH accomplished: it conveyed the backstory of the characters to the audience so we could better understand their motivations and relate to them on some level.

If nothing else, it would have told us why Darth Maul felt such animosity toward the Jedi and would have therefore helped flesh out his character even if he never said another word.

[Havok]

Yeah, but we already had Ben's pointless exposition as the explanation of the character's back story. Jedi: Guardians of Peace for 1000 generations. Emperor, Vader = bad. Republic good, Empire bad. Got it. Also, Ben's exposition in the OT is required in universe because he needs to tell Luke what the fuck is going on. Everyone in the PT is well aware of what is going on.
But beside that, what exposition could there be about Maul and Sidious that wouldn't seem forced and out of place? And who would deliver it? No one knew they even existed. That leaves only Sidious and Maul and that would be even more retarded and forced. Tarkin and Vader didn't sit around explaining things. They just did shit and we figured it out.

I mean, god forbid that the mysterious bad guys in a movie called the PHANTOM menace are mysterious.

[Galvatron]

Everyone in the PT is well aware of what is going on.

Padme didn't and she was Maul's target. A brief exchange between her and Qui-Gon with her asking about the mysterious cloaked man who attacked them on Tatooine would have been sufficient to get the ball rolling. It would be at least as valuable storywise as Qui-Gon's drivel about midichlorians.

[Tiriol]

Everyone in the PT is well aware of what is going on.

Padme didn't and she was Maul's target. A brief exchange between her and Qui-Gon with her asking about the mysterious cloaked man who attacked them on Tatooine would have been sufficient to get the ball rolling. It would be at least as valuable storywise as Qui-Gon's drivel about midichlorians.

Before Tatooine the Jedi didn't know about the Sith's continued existence. And they weren't sure about it afterwards (Qui-Gon seemed to be convinced, but the Council wasn't). What possible motivation would they have to tell about a most likely extinct cult of murderers, conquerors and criminally insane people to someone when they couldn't be sure that the mysterious warrior who attacked WAS a Sith? They weren't even sure if he would re-appear on Naboo (although they did consider it a possibility). This is not a Tarantino movie, where everyone loves to talk about everything.

[Havok]

Everyone in the PT is well aware of what is going on.

Padme didn't and she was Maul's target. A brief exchange between her and Qui-Gon with her asking about the mysterious cloaked man who attacked them on Tatooine would have been sufficient to get the ball rolling. It would be at least as valuable storywise as Qui-Gon's drivel about midichlorians.

Yeah, but she was never actually attacked by Maul. She saw him from a distance from the ship when he attacked Qui Gon.
Aside from that, how would that conversation go...

"Who was that Qui-Gon?"
"I'm not sure young handmaiden. He may be a warrior of a secret group thought long extinct called the Sith. An enemy of the Jedi."
"That's all you know?"
"I'm afraid so."

Wow look at all the facts we learn, that we will learn again when Qui Gon talks to the Jedi council in basically three scenes from when Padme first sees Maul.

[Anguirus]

The same thing Ben's "pointless exposition" in ANH accomplished: it conveyed the backstory of the characters to the audience so we could better understand their motivations and relate to them on some level.

There's no difference at all.

SW: "Jedi. Protected galaxy for a thousand generations. The Empire killed us all because they're evil, and Darth Vader helped them. Oh, and there's something called the Clone Wars that I sense many fans will be complaining about in twenty years."

TPM: "Sith. Died out a thousand years ago. Evil warriors who hate Jedi because they are evil. Always two there are. They want revenge on the Jedi (this obviously has something to do with their extinction and the whole "Dark Side" thing, so we're not gonna spell it out to ya'll. Hell, it's so obvious we're making a movie with that title in five years and not a single layman or reviewer will complain that it makes no sense.) Oh, and one of them is so obviously the Emperor from Return of the Jedi that one quarter of the fanbase will not believe it and maintain that a huge twist is coming."

[Channel72]

What possible motivation would they have to tell about a most likely extinct cult of murderers, conquerors and criminally insane people to someone when they couldn't be sure that the mysterious warrior who attacked WAS a Sith?

Don't you think it's just a little important for the movie to provide at least a basic understanding of what a Sith is, considering that, you know... the main character in the Trilogy is on his way to becoming one!? I mean, from watching Phantom Menace, for all we know a Sith is simply the name of Darth Maul's species. It would be nice to get a little dialogue explaining that the Sith are like Jedi, but they embrace anger and fear instead of compassion.

[Darth Wong]

What possible motivation would they have to tell about a most likely extinct cult of murderers, conquerors and criminally insane people to someone when they couldn't be sure that the mysterious warrior who attacked WAS a Sith?

Don't you think it's just a little important for the movie to provide at least a basic understanding of what a Sith is, considering that, you know... the main character in the Trilogy is on his way to becoming one!? I mean, from watching Phantom Menace, for all we know a Sith is simply the name of Darth Maul's species. It would be nice to get a little dialogue explaining that the Sith are like Jedi, but they embrace anger and fear instead of compassion.

There you go again, saying that if the film leaves any part of its backstory to the imagination, then it's failed. Once again, I say "bullshit". The original films left plenty of the backstory to the imagination as well. There is absolutely no dramatic requirement in fiction that all backstories be carefully explained to the audience and demystified.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, but she was never actually attacked by Maul. She saw him from a distance from the ship when he attacked Qui Gon.

So did Obi-Wan, but that didn't stop him from asking "what was it?" the moment Qui-Gon boarded the ship. Storywise, Padme would be understandably concerned about the mysterious attacker who was able to fight her Jedi protector on equal terms.

Aside from that, how would that conversation go...
[snip]
Wow look at all the facts we learn, that we will learn again when Qui Gon talks to the Jedi council in basically three scenes from when Padme first sees Maul.

Okay, maybe not that brief. I'm thinking of something more like this:

Qui-Gon: "Your Majesty, it is our pleasure to continue to serve and protect you, but before we leave I feel I must warn you of the Sith."
Padme: "The Sith? That warrior who attacked you on Tatooine? I thought he was a bounty hunter working for Viceroy Gunray."
Qui-Gon: "He was no bounty hunter. The Sith serve no one but themselves and I fear they have returned for reasons I cannot fathom."
Padme: "But why would they be after me?"
Qui-Gon: "I don't know, but the Jedi destroyed them a millennium ago and they are vengeful by nature. If they are behind the invasion of your planet, then I believe this is only the beginning. Their lust for power will not be satisfied by the conquest of just one planet. If you return now, the danger you face will be far worse than merely an army of battledroids."
Padme: "Then I welcome your help, but I will not be deterred."

Yeah, I'm no writer, but you get the idea.

[Channel72]

There you go again, saying that if the film leaves any part of its backstory to the imagination, then it's failed. Once again, I say "bullshit". The original films left plenty of the backstory to the imagination as well. There is absolutely no dramatic requirement in fiction that all backstories be carefully explained to the audience and demystified.

I still say you're exaggerating my position. There's a difference between insisting that everything must be explained and spelled out in exhaustive detail, versus saying that it makes for a better film if the basic plot details, specifically those details which motivate on-screen events, are spelled out clearly. Sure, in many cases leaving certain details to the imagination makes them a lot more compelling. But the entire plot of TPM, as well as all the backstory, is depicted in such broad strokes to the point that it actually becomes uninteresting.

Okay, so you think I'm just full of shit; fine, then can you name another movie of similar popularity and genre with such a lack of plot detail? I mean, I guess Space Odyssey was more vague than TPM, I'll give you that. But the Original Trilogy was never this vague: in fact, in both ANH and RotJ, the details behind the assault on both Death Stars are laid out comprehensively to the audience. We know exactly what each character's role is, and this makes the action sequences more interesting. If RotJ were written like Phantom Menace, Lucas wouldn't explain what Han was doing on Endor, (and also Harrison Ford would be replaced with a board of wood) and then all of you TPM apologists would insist there's no problem because it was just obvious he was there to do something that would in some way or another benefit the rebels.

And what about some backstory for the Sith? Well, it's a good thing Terminator wasn't written like Phantom Menace; otherwise we wouldn't get any backstory about the machine war from Kyle Reese beyond maybe one or two lines of generic dialogue, and we'd have to be content just knowing that Arnold is eeeeevil in some way. Yeah, really exciting.

[Galvatron]

Granted, Boba Fett's backstory was left vague, but he wasn't the primary antagonist in TESB so that's okay.

Sidious was the shadowy "phantom menace," so it's understandable that he would remain mysterious, but not Darth Maul. Especially not after he declared "at last we will reveal ourselves the Jedi."

[Darth Wong]

Okay, so you think I'm just full of shit; fine, then can you name another movie of similar popularity and genre with such a lack of plot detail? I mean, I guess Space Odyssey was more vague than TPM, I'll give you that. But the Original Trilogy was never this vague: in fact, in both ANH and RotJ, the details behind the assault on both Death Stars are laid out comprehensively to the audience.

Are you on drugs? Darth Vader's backstory in the original trilogy was so vague that an entire prequel trilogy could be made about it. His motivations were described in ANH with the words "he turned to evil" and nothing else. Not only that, but some people would have preferred that it stay that way, instead of getting fleshed out.

As for the Death Star attack plans, that has nothing to do with fleshing out backstories. Do you know what "red herring" means? They planned out that attack during the course of the movie; what the fuck does that have to do with backstory?

[Galvatron]

Ben also said that Darth Vader was his pupil, that he was seduced by the dark side of the Force, that he helped the Empire hunt down the Jedi and that he murdered Luke's father. That's quite a bit more information than merely "he turned to evil."

[Channel72]

As for the Death Star attack plans, that has nothing to do with fleshing out backstories. Do you know what "red herring" means? They planned out that attack during the course of the movie; what the fuck does that have to do with backstory?

I was addressing both the lack of backstory and the lack of plot detail. My general point throughout this conversation is that TPM is vaguely written - the lack of backstory is just another symptom of that.

[Galvatron]

But the Original Trilogy was never this vague: in fact, in both ANH and RotJ, the details behind the assault on both Death Stars are laid out comprehensively to the audience.

I think a better example is the repeated use of Ben Kenobi (and Yoda) to relay backstory to Luke throughout the entire OT.

[Havok]

And as I already said, that was a requirement because Luke needed that information. Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked. (Even though it doesn't, it just isn't delivered the way and when you want it)

[Channel72]

Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked.

We're saying the audience needed that information. In ANH, Ben's exposition served both Luke and the audience, which is an example of good writing.

[Galvatron]

And as I already said, that was a requirement because Luke needed that information. Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked.

Padme didn't need to know who was trying to capture and/or kill her? We were subjected to Qui-Gon explaining to Anakin the function and purpose of midichlorians in intricate detail, but suggesting that we should have been given more information about the Sith is "whining?"

(Even though it doesn't, it just isn't delivered the way and when you want it)

Some of it was, but it was incomplete, IMO.

[Havok]

As for the Death Star attack plans, that has nothing to do with fleshing out backstories. Do you know what "red herring" means? They planned out that attack during the course of the movie; what the fuck does that have to do with backstory?

I was addressing both the lack of backstory and the lack of plot detail. My general point throughout this conversation is that TPM is vaguely written - the lack of backstory is just another symptom of that.

Wait, aside from the obvious purposefully mysterious characters, what is so vague about TPM? The Jedi tell you who the Sith are. We learn who Anakin is. We learn how the Jedi are connected to the Force. We learn Trade Federation = Bad. We get a completely spelled out plan of attack for the closing battle. We learn about the structure of the Jedi Order. We learn that Droids are even more Redshirts than Stormtroopers. What is so vague?

[Havok]

Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked.

We're saying the audience needed that information. In ANH, Ben's exposition served both Luke and the audience, which is an example of good writing.

Right but as I said, NO ONE IN TPM NEEDED THE INFO, so just forcing it in there because the audience didn't know (which is complete bullshit by the way) is retarded.

[Galvatron]

How is it bullshit and why is that retarded? Are you under the impression that the audience already knew who the Sith were? Not everyone reads the novels and comics, you know.

[Havok]

And as I already said, that was a requirement because Luke needed that information. Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked.

Padme didn't need to know who was trying to capture and/or kill her?

Nope. Padme' is not the Queen. As far as any of the characters are concerned, Padme is just a handmaiden. Now I suppose you could have Qui-Gon explain it to the Queen, but as he pretty much established "The Queen, doesn't need to know." (i.e. Fuck off, I am an arrogant Jedi and I know what is best)

(Even though it doesn't, it just isn't delivered the way and when you want it)

Some of it was, but it was incomplete, IMO.

See what this seems to me, and I can be completely wrong, is that you didn't want TPM as the first prequel movie. Like the Kurtz interview suggested he and Lucas talked about doing, you want a history of the Sith V. Jedi as the first prequel.

[Galvatron]

Did you completely ignore my prior post in which I wrote the exchange between the Padme and Qui-Gon? It takes place right before they board her ship to return to Naboo when Padme is dressed as the queen. The first line by Qui-Gon is actually in the movie. See for yourself.

And no, I didn't want a "history of the Jedi vs Sith" movie. I'm the one who thinks that the scope of the plot should be dialed back to concentrate more on the characters, remember?