Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Havok]

As for the Death Star attack plans, that has nothing to do with fleshing out backstories. Do you know what "red herring" means? They planned out that attack during the course of the movie; what the fuck does that have to do with backstory?

I was addressing both the lack of backstory and the lack of plot detail. My general point throughout this conversation is that TPM is vaguely written - the lack of backstory is just another symptom of that.

Wait, aside from the obvious purposefully mysterious characters, what is so vague about TPM? The Jedi tell you who the Sith are. We learn who Anakin is. We learn how the Jedi are connected to the Force. We learn Trade Federation = Bad. We get a completely spelled out plan of attack for the closing battle. We learn about the structure of the Jedi Order. We learn that Droids are even more Redshirts than Stormtroopers. What is so vague?

[Havok]

Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked.

We're saying the audience needed that information. In ANH, Ben's exposition served both Luke and the audience, which is an example of good writing.

Right but as I said, NO ONE IN TPM NEEDED THE INFO, so just forcing it in there because the audience didn't know (which is complete bullshit by the way) is retarded.

[Galvatron]

How is it bullshit and why is that retarded? Are you under the impression that the audience already knew who the Sith were? Not everyone reads the novels and comics, you know.

[Havok]

And as I already said, that was a requirement because Luke needed that information. Nobody in the PT needed the information that you guys are whining the movie lacked.

Padme didn't need to know who was trying to capture and/or kill her?

Nope. Padme' is not the Queen. As far as any of the characters are concerned, Padme is just a handmaiden. Now I suppose you could have Qui-Gon explain it to the Queen, but as he pretty much established "The Queen, doesn't need to know." (i.e. Fuck off, I am an arrogant Jedi and I know what is best)

(Even though it doesn't, it just isn't delivered the way and when you want it)

Some of it was, but it was incomplete, IMO.

See what this seems to me, and I can be completely wrong, is that you didn't want TPM as the first prequel movie. Like the Kurtz interview suggested he and Lucas talked about doing, you want a history of the Sith V. Jedi as the first prequel.

[Galvatron]

Did you completely ignore my prior post in which I wrote the exchange between the Padme and Qui-Gon? It takes place right before they board her ship to return to Naboo when Padme is dressed as the queen. The first line by Qui-Gon is actually in the movie. See for yourself.

And no, I didn't want a "history of the Jedi vs Sith" movie. I'm the one who thinks that the scope of the plot should be dialed back to concentrate more on the characters, remember?

[Anguirus]

I mean, from watching Phantom Menace, for all we know a Sith is simply the name of Darth Maul's species.

Only a staggering idiot could possibly think this. Exhibit A: Darth Sidious. Exhibit B: HE'S THE FUCKING EMPEROR.

It would be nice to get a little dialogue explaining that the Sith are like Jedi, but they embrace anger and fear instead of compassion.

We got plenty of that in the conversation between Anakin and Sidious in Episode III. Where is was appropriate for Anakin and the audience to be finding out about the Sith together. Remember how it's the "Phantom" Menace in movie 1? A scene like you refer to wouldn't have been awful (the movie's packed with filler, what's another 30 seconds) but it's certainly not true that it was necessary.

Seriously, a lot of small children watched this movie and suffered none of the staggering confusion that you allude to. Perhaps George Lucas is simply not in the business of catering to people who can't figure out what a black robe, a red lightsabre, and a desire to kill Jedi all mean.

By the way, most of you seem to have missed HOW MUCH information is conveyed in the Jedi Council scene in Episode I with VERY economical dialogue. Paraphrased below:

Qui-Gon: I believe our attacker was a Sith Lord.
Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible. The Sith have been extinct for a millenium.
Mace Windu: I do not believe the Sith could have returned without our knowledge.
Yoda: Hard to see, the dark side is.
Mace Windu: We will devote all our efforts to uncovering the mystery of this attacker.

WHAT WE'VE LEARNED

-The Jedi defeated the Sith long ago (strongly implied)
-The Jedi are terribly arrogant.
-Qui-Gon is perceptive (after all he is absolutely right)
-Yoda is sharper and less arrogant than the rest of the Jedi.
-Conversely, the rest of the Jedi defer to him.
-One report from Q-G and one cautionary word from Yoda and the Jedi Council is launching an investigation. They don't quite buy it, clearly, but they are treating the threat of the Sith very seriously.
-The Jedi have no idea that a Dark Lord of the Sith lives down the block. Yoda is right, the dark side is damn hard to see.

Notice how all of these are plot points or motifs that play into the next two movies?

Notice how they were effortlessly established in five lines?

If you want to find out about the history of the Sith, George Lucas will sell you a book about them. He didn't need to make this scene LESS economical, especially since the second part of the scene is about Anakin, and then we get two more scenes with the Jedi Council that establish essential plot points.

[Stofsk]

I mean, from watching Phantom Menace, for all we know a Sith is simply the name of Darth Maul's species.

Only a staggering idiot could possibly think this. Exhibit A: Darth Sidious. Exhibit B: HE'S THE FUCKING EMPEROR.

Oh shut up. When was the Emperor in the OT ever referred to as a Sith? For that matter, when was the word 'Sith' ever said in the OT?

I remember when TPM first came out. A lot of my friends watched it. Some speculated that maybe Darth Maul was an actual Sith, and it might have been an alien species. None of them read the goddamn novels/comics/crap either.

I'm sorry but this bickering is stupid. TPM is supposed to be an expository story. Havok's claims not withstanding, the point of TPM and the entire PT from Lucas's perspective was to tell us about the backstory to the OT, which includes who the Sith were and what their deal was. I watched TPM and the only impression I got was 'Ok, Sith hate the Jedi... for some reason.'

[Channel72]

Wait, aside from the obvious purposefully mysterious characters, what is so vague about TPM? The Jedi tell you who the Sith are. We learn who Anakin is. We learn how the Jedi are connected to the Force. We learn Trade Federation = Bad. We get a completely spelled out plan of attack for the closing battle. We learn about the structure of the Jedi Order. We learn that Droids are even more Redshirts than Stormtroopers. What is so vague?

Explaining the details of the closing battle sequence is actually one thing Phantom Menace got right. Unfortunately the whole sequence suffered from other problems, like inappropriate doses of Jar Jar zaniness, an 8-year old piloting a starfighter, and an epic lightsabre duel that had no emotional depth or real purpose plotwise. Anyway, I think it's been spelled out pretty clearly elsewhere in this thread why people felt the plot to TPM was way too sketchy to carry audience interest.

[Havok]

How is it bullshit and why is that retarded? Are you under the impression that the audience already knew who the Sith were? Not everyone reads the novels and comics, you know.

It's bullshit because the term Dark Lord of the Sith or Sith Lord has been synonymous with Darth Vader in pop culture
for over 20 years. Now that isn't to say that everyone knows every little detail about them, but when you say 'Sith' people know Bad Guy. They know it = Vader which in turn equals enemy of the Jedi.

It is retarded because there is no reason for anyone in TPM, outside of the Jedi, to know who the hell the Sith are, or even to know to ask. So a scene where Qui-Gon just starts volunteering information about them is going to seem completely forced and out of place, especially since he isn't even 100% sure that it is the Sith.

[Havok]

Did you completely ignore my prior post in which I wrote the exchange between the Padme and Qui-Gon? It takes place right before they board her ship to return to Naboo when Padme is dressed as the queen. The first line by Qui-Gon is actually in the movie. See for yourself.

OK, so then we end up with two scenes in the movie explaining the Sith. Again, that is retarded.

And no, I didn't want a "history of the Jedi vs Sith" movie. I'm the one who thinks that the scope of the plot should be dialed back to concentrate more on the characters, remember?

Well I fucking do.

[Havok]

Wait, aside from the obvious purposefully mysterious characters, what is so vague about TPM? The Jedi tell you who the Sith are. We learn who Anakin is. We learn how the Jedi are connected to the Force. We learn Trade Federation = Bad. We get a completely spelled out plan of attack for the closing battle. We learn about the structure of the Jedi Order. We learn that Droids are even more Redshirts than Stormtroopers. What is so vague?

Explaining the details of the closing battle sequence is actually one thing Phantom Menace got right. Unfortunately the whole sequence suffered from other problems, like inappropriate doses of Jar Jar zaniness, an 8-year old piloting a starfighter, and an epic lightsabre duel that had no emotional depth or real purpose plotwise. Anyway, I think it's been spelled out pretty clearly elsewhere in this thread why people felt the plot to TPM was way too sketchy to carry audience interest.

So again, since none of that has to do with anything being vague, what is so vague?

[Galvatron]

It's bullshit because the term Dark Lord of the Sith or Sith Lord has been synonymous with Darth Vader in pop culture for over 20 years. Now that isn't to say that everyone knows every little detail about them, but when you say 'Sith' people know Bad Guy. They know it = Vader which in turn equals enemy of the Jedi.

I think you're overestimating the general public's knowledge of obscure Star Wars trivia circa 1999.

It is retarded because there is no reason for anyone in TPM, outside of the Jedi, to know who the hell the Sith are, or even to know to ask. So a scene where Qui-Gon just starts volunteering information about them is going to seem completely forced and out of place, especially since he isn't even 100% sure that it is the Sith.

Once again: Qui-Gon would tell Padme about the Sith within the context of warning her about the real danger of returning to Naboo. This makes sense and allows Padme to represent the uninitiated audience.

[Galvatron]

Did you completely ignore my prior post in which I wrote the exchange between the Padme and Qui-Gon? It takes place right before they board her ship to return to Naboo when Padme is dressed as the queen. The first line by Qui-Gon is actually in the movie. See for yourself.

OK, so then we end up with two scenes in the movie explaining the Sith. Again, that is retarded.

No, we get one scene with vague references to the Sith by the Jedi council and one scene with a Jedi master elaborating on the subject to someone with no knowledge of it.

[Havok]

I mean, from watching Phantom Menace, for all we know a Sith is simply the name of Darth Maul's species.

Only a staggering idiot could possibly think this. Exhibit A: Darth Sidious. Exhibit B: HE'S THE FUCKING EMPEROR.

Oh shut up. When was the Emperor in the OT ever referred to as a Sith? For that matter, when was the word 'Sith' ever said in the OT?

I remember when TPM first came out. A lot of my friends watched it. Some speculated that maybe Darth Maul was an actual Sith, and it might have been an alien species. None of them read the goddamn novels/comics/crap either.

Well then your friends are just as stupid as the people that thought Palpatine wasn't Sidious, since you know, they actually say 'Now there are two of them!' Talking about Sidious and Maul and Palpatine clearly not being the same species as Maul.

I'm sorry but this bickering is stupid. TPM is supposed to be an expository story. Havok's claims not withstanding, the point of TPM and the entire PT from Lucas's perspective was to tell us about the backstory to the OT, which includes who the Sith were and what their deal was. I watched TPM and the only impression I got was 'Ok, Sith hate the Jedi... for some reason.'

Well it's a good thing this was the first movie in a TRILOGY then.

[Stofsk]

Oh shut up. When was the Emperor in the OT ever referred to as a Sith? For that matter, when was the word 'Sith' ever said in the OT?

I remember when TPM first came out. A lot of my friends watched it. Some speculated that maybe Darth Maul was an actual Sith, and it might have been an alien species. None of them read the goddamn novels/comics/crap either.

Well then your friends are just as stupid as the people that thought Palpatine wasn't Sidious, since you know, they actually say 'Now there are two of them!' Talking about Sidious and Maul and Palpatine clearly not being the same species as Maul.

No, they weren't idiots. They just weren't up to speed with the SW trivia, which they can hardly be blamed for, and for a film that Lucas prioritised as being an expository story, failed to enlighten them as to who and what the Sith actually are. The Sith could have been an alien species for all we knew, notwithstanding Darth Sidious' presence - and incidentally, that is exactly what the backstory of the Sith is. They actually were an alien species before becoming a large pan-galactic order of Dark Side force adepts.

But if you don't have that knowledge, and all you have is a passing interest in watching a blockbuster film, and you go into it and the principal antagonists appear to be buffoonish henchmen and annoying battledroids taking their orders from a mysterious hooded figure and his lieutenant, and the word 'Sith' gets thrown around like its supposed to mean something, the casual viewer might be forgiven for making the wrong conclusion in the absence of trivial knowledge because the film isn't at all clear who Darth Maul is, what species he belongs to, where he comes from, etc, all we know is he's a Sith. He and Darth Sidious are obviously not of the same species, but so what? For all anybody could know, Sidious might have been the exception rather than the rule.

Well it's a good thing this was the first movie in a TRILOGY then.

It's unreasonable to expect people to stick in for the long haul when the first iteration of your trilogy turns them away. One of my teachers at the time told me how he went into the cinema in 1977 expecting to hate Star Wars, and left it two hours later blown away. In 1999 he went into the cinema to watch TPM excited and wanting to like it, and left feeling utterly disgusted. He never bothered watching either AOTC or ROTS, and I don't blame him.

[Channel72]

He and Darth Sidious are obviously not of the same species, but so what? For all anybody could know, Sidious might have been the exception rather than the rule.

Sidious isn't even referred to as a Sith anyway, only Maul; and the Trade Fed line "now there are two of them" can hardly be expected to convey the information that both Sidious and Maul are Sith. It could simply mean, "Oh shit, now we're dealing with two mysterious hooded guys." In fact, Sidious's line "...not for a Sith" right before Maul appears on-screen for the first time can even be taken to indicate the opposite, i.e. that Sidious in fact is not a Sith, so he had to bring in a Sith to handle the situation.

So really, there's nothing in TPM at all that clearly explains anything about the Sith other than the fact that Maul is one of them, they've been extinct for a long time, and they're evil for some reason.

[Elfdart]

Yeah, but she was never actually attacked by Maul. She saw him from a distance from the ship when he attacked Qui Gon.

So did Obi-Wan, but that didn't stop him from asking "what was it?" the moment Qui-Gon boarded the ship. Storywise, Padme would be understandably concerned about the mysterious attacker who was able to fight her Jedi protector on equal terms.

Aside from that, how would that conversation go...
[snip]
Wow look at all the facts we learn, that we will learn again when Qui Gon talks to the Jedi council in basically three scenes from when Padme first sees Maul.

Okay, maybe not that brief. I'm thinking of something more like this:

Qui-Gon: "Your Majesty, it is our pleasure to continue to serve and protect you, but before we leave I feel I must warn you of the Sith."
Padme: "The Sith? That warrior who attacked you on Tatooine? I thought he was a bounty hunter working for Viceroy Gunray."
Qui-Gon: "He was no bounty hunter. The Sith serve no one but themselves and I fear they have returned for reasons I cannot fathom."
Padme: "But why would they be after me?"
Qui-Gon: "I don't know, but the Jedi destroyed them a millennium ago and they are vengeful by nature. If they are behind the invasion of your planet, then I believe this is only the beginning. Their lust for power will not be satisfied by the conquest of just one planet. If you return now, the danger you face will be far worse than merely an army of battledroids."
Padme: "Then I welcome your help, but I will not be deterred."

And to think people have the nerve to call George Lucas a shitty screenwriter.

Yeah, I'm no writer, but you get the idea.

I get the idea that you're no writer.

[Elfdart]

He and Darth Sidious are obviously not of the same species, but so what? For all anybody could know, Sidious might have been the exception rather than the rule.

Sidious isn't even referred to as a Sith anyway, only Maul; and the Trade Fed line "now there are two of them" can hardly be expected to convey the information that both Sidious and Maul are Sith.

It could simply mean, "Oh shit, now we're dealing with two mysterious hooded guys." In fact, Sidious's line "...not for a Sith" right before Maul appears on-screen for the first time can even be taken to indicate the opposite, i.e. that Sidious in fact is not a Sith, so he had to bring in a Sith to handle the situation.

So really, there's nothing in TPM at all that clearly explains anything about the Sith other than the fact that Maul is one of them, they've been extinct for a long time, and they're evil for some reason.

You are one dumb twat. What part of "This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." did your tiny little retard brain not comprehend?

[Havok]

It's bullshit because the term Dark Lord of the Sith or Sith Lord has been synonymous with Darth Vader in pop culture for over 20 years. Now that isn't to say that everyone knows every little detail about them, but when you say 'Sith' people know Bad Guy. They know it = Vader which in turn equals enemy of the Jedi.

I think you're overestimating the general public's knowledge of obscure Star Wars trivia circa 1999.

I don't think so. And I would hardly call Darth Vader's title, obscure. Pretty much anyone that is a fan of Star Wars should have at least heard it. Hell, I remember them using it on E.T..

It is retarded because there is no reason for anyone in TPM, outside of the Jedi, to know who the hell the Sith are, or even to know to ask. So a scene where Qui-Gon just starts volunteering information about them is going to seem completely forced and out of place, especially since he isn't even 100% sure that it is the Sith.

Once again: Qui-Gon would tell Padme about the Sith within the context of warning her about the real danger of returning to Naboo. This makes sense and allows Padme to represent the uninitiated audience.

But again, we learn all that from watching the movie. We have Sidious and Maul talking about revenge, the Jedi Council talking about how they have been 'extinct for a millennia' and how they couldn't have returned without them knowing. Yoda stating the structure of the Sith. Maul killing the hero.
If you can't figure, from all that, that the Sith are the ancient enemy of the Jedi, and you need top have someone actually explain it to you, then you are just a fucking idiot.

[Channel72]

You are one dumb twat. What part of "This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." did your tiny little retard brain not comprehend?

What are you kidding me? The issue is that the movie never explains what the fuck a Sith is. How does that line tell us anything? Maybe "Sith" just refers to Maul's species.

[Formless]

You are one dumb twat. What part of "This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." did your tiny little retard brain not comprehend?

What are you kidding me? The issue is that the movie never explains what the fuck a Sith is. How does that line tell us anything? Maybe "Sith" just refers to Maul's species.

Which is completely fucking stupid because we see Darth Sidious, and he is clearly a human.

[Galvatron]

You are one dumb twat. What part of "This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." did your tiny little retard brain not comprehend?

What are you kidding me? The issue is that the movie never explains what the fuck a Sith is. How does that line tell us anything? Maybe "Sith" just refers to Maul's species.

Which is completely fucking stupid because we see Darth Sidious, and he is clearly a human.

So what if he's human? Just because he's Maul's master and Maul's a Sith does not mean that Sidious is a Sith too. That's why the casual movie viewer could easily make the incorrect assumption that "Sith" was simply the name of Maul's species.

Hell, we knew that Palpatine was Vader's master in ROTJ. Some of us knew that Vader was the "Dark Lord of the Sith" if they'd read the novels and comics, but no one ever assumed that the emperor was a Sith Lord as well. That revelation didn't come about until TPM.

[Havok]

He and Darth Sidious are obviously not of the same species, but so what? For all anybody could know, Sidious might have been the exception rather than the rule.

Sidious isn't even referred to as a Sith anyway, only Maul; and the Trade Fed line "now there are two of them" can hardly be expected to convey the information that both Sidious and Maul are Sith. It could simply mean, "Oh shit, now we're dealing with two mysterious hooded guys." In fact, Sidious's line "...not for a Sith" right before Maul appears on-screen for the first time can even be taken to indicate the opposite, i.e. that Sidious in fact is not a Sith, so he had to bring in a Sith to handle the situation.

So really, there's nothing in TPM at all that clearly explains anything about the Sith other than the fact that Maul is one of them, they've been extinct for a long time, and they're evil for some reason.

Dude, could you possibly stretch that any further to try to make it mean what you want? Fucking please.
"This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." DARTH MAUL DARTH DARTH DARTH DARTH. Are you fucking kidding me? They all share the same title, but oh wait, Sidious isn't a Sith, but his apprentices in all the movies have the same fucking title.

[Galvatron]

Havok, did you assume that the emperor was a Sith prior to seeing TPM for the first time?

[Formless]

What are you kidding me? The issue is that the movie never explains what the fuck a Sith is. How does that line tell us anything? Maybe "Sith" just refers to Maul's species.

Which is completely fucking stupid because we see Darth Sidious, and he is clearly a human.

So what if he's human? Just because he's Maul's master and Maul's a Sith does not mean that Sidious is a Sith too. That's why the casual movie viewer could easily make the incorrect assumption that "Sith" was simply the name of Maul's species.

Hell, we knew that Palpatine was Vader's master in ROTJ. Some of us knew that Vader was the "Dark Lord of the Sith" if they'd read the novels and comics, but no one ever assumed that the emperor was a Sith Lord as well. That revelation didn't come about until TPM.

[sarcasm] Its not like Yoda said there are always two Sith. [/sarcasm] Pay attention, is that so hard? Is that really asking too much of the viewer? Frankly, I don't know anyone who is so stupid they thought the Sith were Darth Maul's species. That is just you fuckers grasping at straws.