Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Galvatron]

Yoda didn't say that until the end of the movie. The whole issue here is that there should have been more information given about the Sith at some point earlier in the movie when it would have mattered.

[Formless]

Yoda didn't say that until the end of the movie. The whole issue here is that there should have been more information given about the Sith at some point earlier in the movie when it would have mattered.

We may not learn much from dialogue, but we at least know enough not to mistake the Sith for Darth Maul's species. Besides, arguably you don't have to know who the Sith are as long as you know who the Bad Guy is-- Darth Sidious/Palpatine. The Sith vs Jedi angle is just fluff. For flavor. Not essential to the story until later in Revenge of the Sith.

[Galvatron]

Hey, I never mistook Sith for Maul's species. I think what Stofsk, Channel72 and I are getting at is that the vast majority of people who saw TPM didn't go into it with the foreknowledge that you or I take for granted.

Hell, even I, a lifelong SW fan, didn't truly know much about the Sith. Sure, they were covered in the novels and comics, but we had no reason to assume that Lucas would adhere to any of that. I certainly didn't expect the "rule of two" and it was news to me that Palpatine was a Sith Lord with a Darth title. I can only imagine how confusing this movie was to a non-fan who hadn't seen a Star Wars movie since 1983 (if ever).

[Havok]

Oh shut up. When was the Emperor in the OT ever referred to as a Sith? For that matter, when was the word 'Sith' ever said in the OT?

I remember when TPM first came out. A lot of my friends watched it. Some speculated that maybe Darth Maul was an actual Sith, and it might have been an alien species. None of them read the goddamn novels/comics/crap either.

Well then your friends are just as stupid as the people that thought Palpatine wasn't Sidious, since you know, they actually say 'Now there are two of them!' Talking about Sidious and Maul and Palpatine clearly not being the same species as Maul.

No, they weren't idiots. They just weren't up to speed with the SW trivia, which they can hardly be blamed for,

Yes, they were, because you didn't have to know SW trivia if you watched the movie and paid fucking attention. It explains it all.

and for a film that Lucas prioritised as being an expository story, failed to enlighten them as to who and what the Sith actually are. The Sith could have been an alien species for all we knew, notwithstanding Darth Sidious' presence - and incidentally, that is exactly what the backstory of the Sith is. They actually were an alien species before becoming a large pan-galactic order of Dark Side force adepts.

Talk about obscure trivia. And you mean, despite Sidious and Maul, plus Vader from the OT.

But if you don't have that knowledge, and all you have is a passing interest in watching a blockbuster film, and you go into it and the principal antagonists appear to be buffoonish henchmen and annoying battledroids taking their orders from a mysterious hooded figure and his lieutenant, and the word 'Sith' gets thrown around like its supposed to mean something, the casual viewer might be forgiven for making the wrong conclusion in the absence of trivial knowledge because the film isn't at all clear who Darth Maul is, what species he belongs to, where he comes from, etc, all we know is he's a Sith. He and Darth Sidious are obviously not of the same species, but so what? For all anybody could know, Sidious might have been the exception rather than the rule.

And again, I will reiterate, a movie that is supposed to have mysterious characters you don't know anything about with the word Phantom in the title. I am shocked that all their info wasn't dumped on screen in the first story of a trilogy ABOUT THEM.

Well it's a good thing this was the first movie in a TRILOGY then.

It's unreasonable to expect people to stick in for the long haul when the first iteration of your trilogy turns them away. One of my teachers at the time told me how he went into the cinema in 1977 expecting to hate Star Wars, and left it two hours later blown away. In 1999 he went into the cinema to watch TPM excited and wanting to like it, and left feeling utterly disgusted. He never bothered watching either AOTC or ROTS, and I don't blame him.

Personal anecdotes aside, I think it is pretty clear that people that didn't continue the story from the first movie are a very significant minority.

[Havok]

Havok, did you assume that the emperor was a Sith prior to seeing TPM for the first time?

Yup. Dark Lord of the Sith. Emperor is the master. It's not rocket science.

[Galvatron]

And again, I will reiterate, a movie that is supposed to have mysterious characters you don't know anything about with the word Phantom in the title. I am shocked that all their info wasn't dumped on screen in the first story of a trilogy ABOUT THEM.

Darth Sidious was the "phantom menace." It's acceptable that we didn't get any information about him.

The issue here is Darth Maul and the Sith in general.

Havok, did you assume that the emperor was a Sith prior to seeing TPM for the first time?

Yup. Dark Lord of the Sith. Emperor is the master. It's not rocket science.

Hindsight is 20/20, I think.

[Stofsk]

Yes, they were, because you didn't have to know SW trivia if you watched the movie and paid fucking attention. It explains it all.

No it doesn't.

Talk about obscure trivia.

So the obscure trivia which says the Sith originally were an alien species? Perish the thought someone might make that intuitive albeit incorrect leap in that trivia's absence.

And you mean, despite Sidious and Maul, plus Vader from the OT.

What about Vader from the OT? The word 'sith' is never uttered once in the entire filmed OT.

And again, I will reiterate, a movie that is supposed to have mysterious characters you don't know anything about with the word Phantom in the title. I am shocked that all their info wasn't dumped on screen in the first story of a trilogy ABOUT THEM.

Now you're being obtuse. Some information would have been welcomed, for what was ostensibly a film that Lucas intended to be expository.

Personal anecdotes aside, I think it is pretty clear that people that didn't continue the story from the first movie are a very significant minority.

Why, because you say so?

[Havok]

Yoda didn't say that until the end of the movie. The whole issue here is that there should have been more information given about the Sith at some point earlier in the movie when it would have mattered.

What more information do you need that you don't get from the fucking movie? Maul is a Sith, Vader is a Sith, Sidious is a Sith. The Nemoidians tell you, the Jedi tell you. The Sith hate the Jedi and have been thought to be extinct for 1000 years. They are finally in a position to reveal themselves and take revenge. They use the Dark side the Jedi use the Light side of the Force. They obviously don't like each other.

Do you need their fucking shoe sizes?

[Galvatron]

Once agan: some history on the Jedi/Sith conflict would have been nice, if only to explain why the Sith want revenge since that appears to be Darth Maul's primary motivation for stalking and attacking the good guys.

[Anguirus]

I mean, from watching Phantom Menace, for all we know a Sith is simply the name of Darth Maul's species.

Only a staggering idiot could possibly think this. Exhibit A: Darth Sidious. Exhibit B: HE'S THE FUCKING EMPEROR.

Oh shut up. When was the Emperor in the OT ever referred to as a Sith? For that matter, when was the word 'Sith' ever said in the OT?

I remember when TPM first came out. A lot of my friends watched it. Some speculated that maybe Darth Maul was an actual Sith, and it might have been an alien species. None of them read the goddamn novels/comics/crap either.

/quote]

The Emperor was never referred to as a Sith in the OT, and nor was anyone else, you are quite right. If you recall my earlier posts, I mentioned that I knew little about the Sith except for some Exar Kun crap and that it was part of Vader's title in movie tie-in material.

However:

1. The Emperor is clearly Darth Sidious. He's clearly Darth Maul's boss, and later Darth Vader's boss.
2. Darths wear black and tend to lunge at Jedi with their red lightsabres in a hostile manner. They also unmistakably wield the Force.
3. "Always two there are. No more, no less. A master, and an apprentice."
4. "I believe our attacker was a Sith Lord."
5. "Yes, Lord Sidious."
6. "Yes, Lord Vader."
7. "Lord Maul, be mindful."
8. "This is getting out of hand. Now there are two of them."
9. Fine, your friends aren't idiots, but they must have taken a lot of bathroom breaks during the film or failed every test in their lives that dealt with context clues.

The movie didn't cater to your need for irrelevant exposition? Cry me a river. The Sith, the taxation of trade routes, the legal consequences of signing the treaty...these aren't plot points, they are world-building!

I can't believe people want more filler in Episode I. The story already grinds to a halt for an hour.

I'm sorry but this bickering is stupid. TPM is supposed to be an expository story. Havok's claims not withstanding, the point of TPM and the entire PT from Lucas's perspective was to tell us about the backstory to the OT, which includes who the Sith were and what their deal was. I watched TPM and the only impression I got was 'Ok, Sith hate the Jedi... for some reason.'[

Bicker all you want, from my perspective I'm just fulfilling this site's mandate. You clearly know nothing about George Lucas' perspective. Lucas SHOWED the audience everything they need to know about the Sith, and I doubt he gives a rat's ass that he didn't fulfill some desire for nerd trivia. He sells people books for that. He's NEVER told a more complex story than "Good and Evil battle for control of the galaxy/The Force."

We were introduced to more Sith lore in Episode III, and even then the only real purpose was to give Sidious a little background and Anakin a powerful motivation. The only backstory that the prequels were ever "meant" to tell was Anakin's.

[Galvatron]

Lucas SHOWED the audience everything they need to know about the Sith, and I doubt he gives a rat's ass that he didn't fulfill some desire for nerd trivia.

I find it ironic that you think we're suggesting he elaborate on the Sith for the sake of the nerds when it's actually for the exact opposite reason.

[Havok]

And again, I will reiterate, a movie that is supposed to have mysterious characters you don't know anything about with the word Phantom in the title. I am shocked that all their info wasn't dumped on screen in the first story of a trilogy ABOUT THEM.

Darth Sidious was the "phantom menace." It's acceptable that we didn't get any information about him.

The issue here is Darth Maul and the Sith in general.

Dude, when the Sith contains all of two people, and the 'Phantom Menace' is one of them, then its perfectly acceptable to only get the info we did.

Havok, did you assume that the emperor was a Sith prior to seeing TPM for the first time?

Yup. Dark Lord of the Sith. Emperor is the master. It's not rocket science.

Hindsight is 20/20, I think.

Or, I'm just not retarded.


Shut up.

[Anguirus]

Once agan: some history on the Jedi/Sith conflict would have been nice, if only to explain why the Sith want revenge since that appears to be Darth Maul's primary motivation for stalking and attacking the good guys.

Sure it would have been nice. Even nicer if it replaced some of Jar Jar Binks. However, it's not actually required, which is my whole point.

Look at it this way, one of the number one things prequel-haters bitch about is that Boba Fett and Darth Vader were destroyed as villains by being given tragic backstories. Now you want the entire Sith Order to have a backstory involving some whiny grievance with the Jedi?

It's crystal clear from the films that the Sith want revenge on the Jedi because the Jedi stopped them from taking over the universe. To a movement that is literally based on narcissism, there could be no greater sin than this. And no, I'm not reading into things that aren't there, or cribbing from some EU...it's RIGHT THERE, in the opera scene in Episode III. Just watch the acting, listen to the dialogue, and reflect on the fact that as soon as the Jedi are fragged, the Sith promptly take over the universe. And exposition wasn't NECESSARY before that, as we only need to know as much about the Sith as Anakin Skywalker does.

Do the tidbits in the films whet your appetite, make you want to know more? Fine, Lucas will sell you a book. He has ENOUGH problems with making his films coherent without sticking in more exposition about things that barely matter.

[Channel72]

"This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." DARTH MAUL DARTH DARTH DARTH DARTH. Are you fucking kidding me? They all share the same title, but oh wait, Sidious isn't a Sith, but his apprentices in all the movies have the same fucking title.

Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are incredible; you're so accustomed to being entrenched in Star Wars lore that you just assume it's all some kind of obvious, common knowledge. I realize that anyone with an account at fucking stardestroyer.net obviously knows what a Sith is, but let's see if you can get this through your head: most people on Earth went into Phantom Menace with no fucking clue what a Sith was. For God's sake, even the title "Darth" was not associated with the word Sith in the OT. For all we know, "Darth" was Vader's fucking first name. It wasn't until Sidious was introduced in Phantom Menace that we even knew it was a title of some sort, and even then it wasn't specifically associated with the Sith. Maybe "Darth" is some title used by evil force-users, and "Sith" is an alien race; the movie doesn't say.

The fact you think it's obvious that since both Sidious and Maul use the title "Darth" they must clearly both be "Sith" just shows how fucking entrenched you are in Star Wars trivia, and how little perspective you have regarding the average movie-going experience when TPM first came out.

[Havok]

Once agan: some history on the Jedi/Sith conflict would have been nice, if only to explain why the Sith want revenge since that appears to be Darth Maul's primary motivation for stalking and attacking the good guys.

But how does that make the story any better? Even IF we hear what happened, or why it happened, it still doesn't explain why two guys, 1000 years later, are still pissed about it.
Quite honestly, the Sith, they way they came out, are far too complicated to explain in a single info dump, especially when none of the characters are supposed to know anything about them other than rumors and myths.

[Galvatron]

But how does that make the story any better?

Just this: it imparts some much needed characterization (in the form of personal motivation) to the most visible and credible threat in the movie. That's all. All this arguing boils down to that.

[Havok]

"This is my apprentice, Darth Maul." DARTH MAUL DARTH DARTH DARTH DARTH. Are you fucking kidding me? They all share the same title, but oh wait, Sidious isn't a Sith, but his apprentices in all the movies have the same fucking title.

Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are incredible; you're so accustomed to being entrenched in Star Wars lore that you just assume it's all some kind of obvious, common knowledge. I realize that anyone with an account at fucking stardestroyer.net obviously knows what a Sith is, but let's see if you can get this through your head: most people on Earth went into Phantom Menace with no fucking clue what a Sith was. For God's sake, even the title "Darth" was not associated with the word Sith in the OT. For all we know, "Darth" was Vader's fucking first name. It wasn't until Sidious was introduced in Phantom Menace that we even knew it was a title of some sort, and even then it wasn't specifically associated with the Sith. Maybe "Darth" is some title used by evil force-users, and "Sith" is an alien race; the movie doesn't say.

The fact you think it's obvious that since both Sidious and Maul use the title "Darth" they must clearly both be "Sith" just shows how fucking entrenched you are in Star Wars trivia, and how little perspective you have regarding the average movie-going experience when TPM first came out.

You are a fucking idiot.
EVERYTHING IS EXPLAINED IN THE MOVIE.
It has nothing to do with being 'entrenched' dumb fuck, it has to do with paying attention to the movie you are watching.
Just because you are too stupid to add 2 + 2 does not mean everyone else is.

[Anguirus]

Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are incredible; you're so accustomed to being entrenched in Star Wars lore that you just assume it's all some kind of obvious, common knowledge.

You are a blithering moron.

As someone who is familiar with "Star Wars lore" circa 1999, and someone who went to the movie with his father, to whom it would never occur to pick up a Star Wars book, I can assure you of two things.

1) there is no such fucking thing in pre-TPM EU as a "Darth" anything. NOBODY IN THE GODDAMN UNIVERSE KNEW THAT "DARTH" WAS A TITLE UNTIL EPISODE I CAME OUT.

2) Regular people have no difficulty figuring out what the Sith are, cf. my father, "What is with all this Sith business? They never said anything about Vader or the Emperor being Sith in the movies."

In Episode I, we find out that a couple of Darths are trying to take over the galaxy, "Darth" appears to be a synonym for "Lord," and Qui-Gon identifies an attacker as a "Sith Lord." Oh yes, clearly he's thinking about his attacker's SPECIES. Fuck man. It's not our fault that you're dim.

[Crazedwraith]

A couple of points:
1) The Phantom Menace doesn't have to refer to just Sidious. It applies to the entire Sith Order. (all of two guys)
2) Suggesting that 'Sith' maybe Maul's species is retarded. In Qui-Gon's meeting with the Council he says something along the lines of; "I was attacked by someone trained in the jedi arts. He may have been a sith." If Sith was a species this wouldn't make any sense considering that i) Qui-Gon wouldn't base his description on the guy's fighting skills instad of his biology and ii there wouldn't be any doubt. Either the guy's species was Sith or it wasn't.

[Havok]

Yes, they were, because you didn't have to know SW trivia if you watched the movie and paid fucking attention. It explains it all.

No it doesn't.

Really? What doesn't TPM explain about the Sith that you need to know?

Talk about obscure trivia.

So the obscure trivia which says the Sith originally were an alien species? Perish the thought someone might make that intuitive albeit incorrect leap in that trivia's absence.

Yes because after watching the movie you have to be a complete fucking idiot to not know that the Sith are not a species.

And you mean, despite Sidious and Maul, plus Vader from the OT.

What about Vader from the OT? The word 'sith' is never uttered once in the entire filmed OT.

Holy fucking shit Stofsk. Vader is Darth, Sidious is Darth, Maul is Darth.

And again, I will reiterate, a movie that is supposed to have mysterious characters you don't know anything about with the word Phantom in the title. I am shocked that all their info wasn't dumped on screen in the first story of a trilogy ABOUT THEM.

Now you're being obtuse. Some information would have been welcomed, for what was ostensibly a film that Lucas intended to be expository.

Dude, there was plenty of info if you aren't a middle school drop out. Just isn't the info YOU want. "So tell me Qui-Gon, what are the Sith Lord's motivation?" "Well..."

Personal anecdotes aside, I think it is pretty clear that people that didn't continue the story from the first movie are a very significant minority.

Why, because you say so?

No, because by the third installment attendance had not gone down, which would be the case if your anecdote was more than just a butt hurt fanboy minority, but had gone up.

[Jim Raynor]

The name "Darth Vader" is instantly recognizable to anyone who hasn't been living in a cave for the past three decades. Naming TPM's villain "Darth Maul" instantly suggests a connection between the two of them. That "Darth Sidious" guy looks and sounds lot like Palpatine does in the original trilogy. So, while the term "Sith" was never mentioned in the original trilogy, TPM provides enough information to show the viewer that the Sith are the evil Dark Side counterparts of the Jedi.

[Galvatron]

Can someone tell me when Sidious was referred to as Darth Sidious in TPM? I'm having trouble finding it.

[Channel72]

Can someone tell me when Sidious was referred to as Darth Sidious in TPM? I'm having trouble finding it.

I just searched the TPM script and I can't find it anywhere in the actual spoken dialogue. Apparently, the first time his name is mentioned in Star Wars is in AotC when Count Dooku says his name to Obi Wan. Well, I suppose this makes the ambiguity over the word "Sith" even more acute. I had thought TPM mentioned "Darth Sidious", but apparently the title "Darth" is only used with regard to Maul.

[Stofsk]

Yes, they were, because you didn't have to know SW trivia if you watched the movie and paid fucking attention. It explains it all.

No it doesn't.

Really? What doesn't TPM explain about the Sith that you need to know?

Like Galvatron, I think a bit of focus on Maul would have been welcome. His motivation was revenge, but we don't really know why he wants revenge. Did Jedi piss in his cornflakes that morning? We don't know. Ok, so he's a sith - what does that mean? Beyond being evil, and the Jedi being good - what else distinguishes them from the Jedi? Other than fashion sense.

Yes because after watching the movie you have to be a complete fucking idiot to not know that the Sith are not a species.

No you don't, and like I already said there is trivia that says Sith were originally an alien species. Nobody who watches TPM knows what an iridonian is, IIRC Maul is explained to be an iridonian not a sith alien. But to a casual viewer, it's an intuitive - albeit incorrect - leap to make.

Holy fucking shit Stofsk. Vader is Darth, Sidious is Darth, Maul is Darth.

That doesn't address my point that the term 'Sith' wasn't said in the OT. Prior to TPM showing that 'Darth' was a title, it could just as easily be assumed Darth was Vader's first name.

No, because by the third installment attendance had not gone down, which would be the case if your anecdote was more than just a butt hurt fanboy minority, but had gone up.

The hilarious thing is that my example wasn't about a butt hurt fanboy, but about a neutral and casual film-goer who left the cinema disliking the experience. There is no indication he was in the minority, but even if he was, that's not the point. The point literally is he wasn't a butt hurt SW fanboy, and he detested TPM with a passion.

There appears to be some cognitive dissonance going on in this thread, where those that liked TPM and the PT can't seem to grasp that perfectly normal people who aren't fanboys didn't like the PT at all, for reasons that are not in any way, shape, or form related to being a pre-existing Star Wars fan or obsessed with the trivia. Some people just don't like the films simply because they're not all that good. Call that a subjective opinion if you must. Galvatron and I are two peas in a pod, I saw TPM twice at the cinema, both times wanting to like it.

[Havok]

Can someone tell me when Sidious was referred to as Darth Sidious in TPM? I'm having trouble finding it.

Well the script lists him as Darth Sidious, but he is referred to as 'Lord Sidious' by the Niemodians in the movies.