Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Formless]

"Darth" and "Lord" were used pretty interchangeably in the OT too, and the Jedi Council refers to "Sith Lords" (perhaps out of ignorance of the proper terminology, but still). For all we know the two words are synonyms or translate into one another between languages.

[Havok]

Really? What doesn't TPM explain about the Sith that you need to know?

Like Galvatron, I think a bit of focus on Maul would have been welcome. His motivation was revenge, but we don't really know why he wants revenge. Did Jedi piss in his cornflakes that morning? We don't know. Ok, so he's a sith - what does that mean? Beyond being evil, and the Jedi being good - what else distinguishes them from the Jedi? Other than fashion sense.

You mean beyond the fact that the Sith feel the Jedi wronged them 1000 years ago and they have been plotting revenge ever since? Beyond the fact that the Sith use "anger, fear, aggression", beyond the fact that the Jedi are all that stand between the Sith and Galactic domination?

Yes because after watching the movie you have to be a complete fucking idiot to not know that the Sith are not a species.

No you don't, and like I already said there is trivia that says Sith were originally an alien species. Nobody who watches TPM knows what an iridonian is, IIRC Maul is explained to be an iridonian not a sith alien. But to a casual viewer, it's an intuitive - albeit incorrect - leap to make.

What? You mean that AFTER WATCHING THE PHANTOM MENACE you still think the Sith are a species? All fucking TWO of them?!

Holy fucking shit Stofsk. Vader is Darth, Sidious is Darth, Maul is Darth.

That doesn't address my point that the term 'Sith' wasn't said in the OT. Prior to TPM showing that 'Darth' was a title, it could just as easily be assumed Darth was Vader's first name.

Which is exactly what we all thought before the movie (and more accurately, the merchandising) hit. So when Maul is first introduced as 'Darth' right at the begging of the movie, we instantly go from first name to "OH SHIT! It is a title!". It isn't much of a leap from there, considering we know that Maul is a Sith (even ignoring knowing Vader was TDLOTS) that anyone with the title Darth is a Sith.

No, because by the third installment attendance had not gone down, which would be the case if your anecdote was more than just a butt hurt fanboy minority, but had gone up.

The hilarious thing is that my example wasn't about a butt hurt fanboy, but about a neutral and casual film-goer who left the cinema disliking the experience. There is no indication he was in the minority, but even if he was, that's not the point. The point literally is he wasn't a butt hurt SW fanboy, and he detested TPM with a passion.

Well lets see, was blown away by Star Wars in 77, waited 20 years for the prequel, then was disappointing that the movie didn't live up to his expectations and decided not to watch the sequels. Sounds like a butt hurt fan boy to me, but I'll take your word for it.

There appears to be some cognitive dissonance going on in this thread, where those that liked TPM and the PT can't seem to grasp that perfectly normal people who aren't fanboys didn't like the PT at all, for reasons that are not in any way, shape, or form related to being a pre-existing Star Wars fan or obsessed with the trivia. Some people just don't like the films simply because they're not all that good. Call that a subjective opinion if you must. Galvatron and I are two peas in a pod, I saw TPM twice at the cinema, both times wanting to like it.

Not quite. I didn't like TPM all that much. But the arguments poping up in this thread, 'Plot to vague', 'The Sith are a species dur dur', 'too much mystery!!' are just fucking stupid and wrong.

[Galvatron]

Well lets see, was blown away by Star Wars in 77, waited 20 years for the prequel, then was disappointing that the movie didn't live up to his expectations and decided not to watch the sequels. Sounds like a butt hurt fan boy to me, but I'll take your word for it.

My older brother was a big Star Wars fan back in the day. He loved the OT, he had the Kenner toys, he had the Marvel comics, read the Han Solo novels, etc.

By the time '99 rolled around he was long since over it, but he saw the TPM and thought it was boring as shit. He never bothered with AOTC or ROTS after that. He just felt no compelling reason to continue seeing the prequels.

Believe it or not, such people do exist.

[Stofsk]

You mean beyond the fact that the Sith feel the Jedi wronged them 1000 years ago and they have been plotting revenge ever since? Beyond the fact that the Sith use "anger, fear, aggression", beyond the fact that the Jedi are all that stand between the Sith and Galactic domination?

Yes, beyond that.

What? You mean that AFTER WATCHING THE PHANTOM MENACE you still think the Sith are a species? All fucking TWO of them?!

No. I never said I thought the Sith were a species. I said a casual viewer might be forgiven for automatically assuming Maul was an alien species that had some connection to the Sith. How hard is that to understand?

Well lets see, was blown away by Star Wars in 77, waited 20 years for the prequel, then was disappointing that the movie didn't live up to his expectations and decided not to watch the sequels. Sounds like a butt hurt fan boy to me, but I'll take your word for it.

So if you watch the original films in the cinema you're automatically a fanboy? And if you watch a movie sequel and that sequel is shit, you're a butt hurt fanboy? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but he's not a goddamn Warsie or OT purist. He doesn't post on the fucking internet. He actually does something for a living and has a life outside the narrow confines of a hobby that only scifi nerds give a shit about. They're just fucking films he saw once way back when, which he remembered fondly enough through the years. The point I am trying to make is that you don't need to be a butt hurt fanboy to fucking hate the prequels, and I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this as a rebuttal.

Take your 'he waited 20 years for the sequel' line. That's just assumption on your part. I never said he was breathlessly waiting for TPM the moment he saw Star Wars in the cinema in '77.

[Anguirus]

Not quite. I didn't like TPM all that much. But the arguments poping up in this thread, 'Plot to vague', 'The Sith are a species dur dur', 'too much mystery!!' are just fucking stupid and wrong.

This.

But clearly, TPM could have been saved with a random vignette about the Sith. Because audience disappointment had so much to do with being confused about the backstory.

[Gramzamber]

I don't think TPM had to necesarrily tell us what the Sith were, but one of the damn trilogy should have.
We get 3 whole movies where a Sith plots and schemes and gets "revenge". Revenge for what? When? Who are you?
Well okay Palpatine is clearly doing it for his own damn self to be Emperor and all, but there's still the "revenge" angle that's never answered.
Sure there's KOTOR and the novels and all that but really if you have to go into supplemental materials then the movies have completely failed at backstory for their antagonists.

[Galvatron]

But clearly, TPM could have been saved with a random vignette about the Sith. Because audience disappointment had so much to do with being confused about the backstory.

It's just one of many problems the movie had, like the planet core thing which was also strawmanned to death by TPM apologists.

[Formless]

Maybe they didn't so much fail at film making as succeeded at marketing

[Havok]

You mean beyond the fact that the Sith feel the Jedi wronged them 1000 years ago and they have been plotting revenge ever since? Beyond the fact that the Sith use "anger, fear, aggression", beyond the fact that the Jedi are all that stand between the Sith and Galactic domination?

Yes, beyond that.

So again, what? What do you want to know? What is this valuable piece of information you so desperately seek?

What? You mean that AFTER WATCHING THE PHANTOM MENACE you still think the Sith are a species? All fucking TWO of them?!

No. I never said I thought the Sith were a species. I said a casual viewer might be forgiven for automatically assuming Maul was an alien species that had some connection to the Sith. How hard is that to understand?

And I said AFTER WATCHING THE MOVIE you would be fucking STUPID to STILL think that, to which you replied, no you wouldn't. Yes, you would.

Well lets see, was blown away by Star Wars in 77, waited 20 years for the prequel, then was disappointing that the movie didn't live up to his expectations and decided not to watch the sequels. Sounds like a butt hurt fan boy to me, but I'll take your word for it.

So if you watch the original films in the cinema you're automatically a fanboy? And if you watch a movie sequel and that sequel is shit, you're a butt hurt fanboy? I don't know how many times I have to say it, but he's not a goddamn Warsie or OT purist. He doesn't post on the fucking internet. He actually does something for a living and has a life outside the narrow confines of a hobby that only scifi nerds give a shit about. They're just fucking films he saw once way back when, which he remembered fondly enough through the years. The point I am trying to make is that you don't need to be a butt hurt fanboy to fucking hate the prequels, and I'm getting sick and tired of hearing this as a rebuttal.

Take your 'he waited 20 years for the sequel' line. That's just assumption on your part. I never said he was breathlessly waiting for TPM the moment he saw Star Wars in the cinema in '77.

OK, he is not a fan boy. Conceded.

[Formless]

But clearly, TPM could have been saved with a random vignette about the Sith. Because audience disappointment had so much to do with being confused about the backstory.

It's just one of many problems the movie had, like the planet core thing which was also strawmanned to death by TPM apologists.

It would help if it wasn't such an irrelevant nitpick in the first place. Its like everyone remembers the movie for these little things which were never what the movie was about, and didn't really effect anything, and you wonder why it irks people when they get brought up over and over and over ad nasium. Although admittedly that applies more to complaints against Jar Jar or midichloriens, but its the same mindset at work. I guess its like how some people got tired of hearing about Trek's lack of trigger guards, only its not restricted to this board.

[Channel72]

But clearly, TPM could have been saved with a random vignette about the Sith.

Is anyone here saying that? Jesus; we've moved from topic to topic throughout this thread, and for every new topic someone has to claim that we're saying the only reason TPM failed was due to the topic at hand. Seriously, get some perspective here. Nobody's saying TPM would have been great, if only they elaborated a bit on the Sith, or if only they just removed that silly line about the planet core. The problems with TPM are many and varied, and no one thing could have saved it.

[Havok]

I don't think TPM had to necesarrily tell us what the Sith were, but one of the damn trilogy should have.
We get 3 whole movies where a Sith plots and schemes and gets "revenge". Revenge for what? When? Who are you?
Well okay Palpatine is clearly doing it for his own damn self to be Emperor and all, but there's still the "revenge" angle that's never answered.

Oh for fucks... Do you people actually watch the movies?
"Once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy!"
"The oppression of the Sith will never return!"
Obviously, (FUCK THE EU!*) the Sith controlled the galaxy at some point and they weren't nice about it and the Jedi defeated them and almost completely destroyed them. It is not rocket science!
I hear it even happened about a thousand years ago.

*FUCK THE EU!

[Galvatron]

Havok, did you watch the RedLetterMedia review of TPM? Just curious.

[Gramzamber]

I don't think TPM had to necesarrily tell us what the Sith were, but one of the damn trilogy should have.
We get 3 whole movies where a Sith plots and schemes and gets "revenge". Revenge for what? When? Who are you?
Well okay Palpatine is clearly doing it for his own damn self to be Emperor and all, but there's still the "revenge" angle that's never answered.

Oh for fucks... Do you people actually watch the movies?
"Once more the Sith will rule the Galaxy!"
"The oppression of the Sith will never return!"
Obviously, (FUCK THE EU!*) the Sith controlled the galaxy at some point and they weren't nice about it and the Jedi defeated them and almost completely destroyed them. It is not rocket science!
I hear it even happened about a thousand years ago.

*FUCK THE EU!

Doesn't really say who they are or what they did.
Okay, they ruled the galaxy.. and I suppose we can assume the Jedi overthrew them.. but what *are* Sith? Evil Jedi? A seperate order? Who came first? Why only 2?

[Havok]

Yeah and? What did we know about the Jedi from the OT? Exactly.

[Gramzamber]

Yeah and? What did we know about the Jedi from the OT? Exactly.

We knew a fair bit. Ancient guardians of peace and justice. Well okay not a lot, but in that case it began from Episode 4 so we always had the sense of jumping in the middle of things. Okay so the very first run of Star Wars wasn't called episode 4 but the sense was the same.
The PT was supposed to explain the origins of it all, and TPM went into anal detail with it's taxation of systems and blockades and senate quagmires and blah blah blah, how about a little more on the Sith?

[Channel72]

Yeah and? What did we know about the Jedi from the OT? Exactly.

Oh stop...you know very well that's not true. There's never a single line of dialogue that directly explains what the Sith actually are. In the OT, Ben directly informs Luke what the Jedi are.

"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic."
"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things."

There is so analagous direct statement explaining who/what the Sith are. In TPM, all we get is:

"The Sith have been extinct for a millenium." and "The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are."

Additionally, the nature of the Jedi and their relationship with the Force is thoroughly explored and fleshed out throughout Luke's training session in Empire Strikes Back. In contrast, the nature of the Sith is barely explored at all, and only then in the third act of the final movie, when Palpatine talks to Anakin at the opera.

I find it bizarre that people here are trying to pass off the lack of explanation in the Prequels as something completely acceptable. Seriously, what other successful movie of similar genre and popularity is so sparse on details? As I said earlier, what if Terminator were written like Phantom Menace? We'd get no dialogue explaining what a Terminator is, and why it's after the protagonist. Instead, we'd just get a couple of vague hints. If we're lucky, we'd get at least one line mentioning something about a future war with machines and Skynet. As a result, the movie would be completely boring because nobody would really understand what's at stake, or why anything is happening.

[Anguirus]

The PT was supposed to explain the origins of it all, and TPM went into anal detail with it's taxation of systems and blockades and senate quagmires and blah blah blah, how about a little more on the Sith?

This is a shitpile.

There's one blockade. It's the inciting incident for Episode I. The taxation of trade routes is in a couple throwaway lines that gives a motivation for the blockade. The Senate quagmire means that the heroes have to solve the problem themselves, and advances Senator Palpatine.

This actually is a common complaint about the prequels, and I've heard it come out of the mouths of the Internet and movie critics alike. It's bullshit. It's complete twittery from people who just wanted more Rebels vs. Empire. The politics of the Republic are explained in the barest, most superficial terms imaginable throughout the series.

Is anyone here saying that?

Got the impression you were, with posts like the one directly above. This idea that people were really confused about the fucking Sith is so bizarre to me that I don't even know where to begin. Eleven years later it really feels like nitpicking. There is SO much wrong with the film that actually matters, and you're picking on one of the few examples of elegant writing that exists in the movie.

There is so analagous direct statement explaining who/what the Sith are. In TPM, all we get is:

"The Sith have been extinct for a millenium." and "The very Republic is threatened, if involved the Sith are."

Anybody who gives a damn about the Sith being anything but enemies of the Jedi and a threat to the Republic can buy a book from George Lucas.

Seriously, compared to most people I'm a SW fanboy, and I don't care.

And it is not very fucking hard to connect the following dots: The Sith almost went extinct, the Sith want revenge on the Jedi. Gee. Your demands to be spoon-fed are quite strident.

I find it bizarre that people here are trying to pass off the lack of explanation in the Prequels as something completely acceptable.

Because I've been listening to people blast TPM for eleven years now in the most strident terms and this is the first time I've ever heard this complaint. It REEKS of nitpicking, and moreover it runs precisely counter to the "show don't tell" rule of screenwriting. My suspicion is that if people like my father and my girlfriend can get the Sith without a problem, then Lucas didn't need to put in anymore blather about the Sith than he did.

[Elfdart]

I'm starting to wonder if Heathcliff's stupidity is contagious.

When I'm right, I'm RIGHT.

Once agan: some history on the Jedi/Sith conflict would have been nice, if only to explain why the Sith want revenge since that appears to be Darth Maul's primary motivation for stalking and attacking the good guys.

When was the last time you cleaned your ears? The Sith haven't been seen in a thousand years. Obviously they went up against the Jedi and lost. Do you need a diagram, like in Student Bodies, where the words "murder weapon" and "unlocked door" flashed across the screen?

[Galvatron]

I personally don't need that much information, but I can see how the average filmgoer who's not as familiar with Star Wars lore might.

I can relate since I have the same trouble following along any time I see a Harry Potter movie. Half the time I feel like I'm out of the loop and just assume it makes more sense if you've read the books.

[Darth Yan]

the old republic mmo is covering the time when the sith ruled the galaxy.

[Elfdart]

I personally don't need that much information, but I can see how the average filmgoer who's not as familiar with Star Wars lore might.

There are times when I think the typical moviegoer is an imbecile. But I mostly give them credit for being able to figure out a movie aimed at 10-year-old boys. Only movie critics and self-important fanboys have trouble following the movie. The former from sheer stupidity; the latter because George Lucas told his story -not theirs.

[Darth Yan]

i liked phantom menace, but i can understand people having trouble while not being fanboys

[Channel72]

the latter because George Lucas told his story -not theirs.

Is that supposed to be some kind of actual criticism? Of course I don't like that George Lucas told his story, because...you know, I didn't really like the story. That's so obvious, it's basically tautological. The same thing can be said about any director or writer who told a story I didn't like, and the corollary is of course that the same useless defense can be used to deflect criticism of any movie. So, you didn't like movie X? That's just because the director told his story, and not yours.

[Galvatron]

Is that supposed to be some kind of actual criticism?

Yeah, it's his routine fallback.

Likewise, for example, Matrix fans who hated the sequels were just masturbating fanboys who simply didn't like the fact that the Wachowskis told their story and not the one the fans expected and/or wanted. It's not that the sequels sucked. No, that couldn't possibly be it.