The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Eighty One Up

[JonB]

Following routine without thinking, to me, makes him look like an idiot who's not doing his job properly. Sure, maybe you sometimes have to make decisions quickly and going by SOP is a good way to do that, but he's had ages to internalize the whole 'none of my enemies have ASW capability' thing. Surely he also had a decent amount of time between fleeing and realizing he was being hunted to say 'Wait, why am I doing this? Let's surface and get some orders/intel'.

Stuart has shown a... less-than-stellar opinion on the Isreal Navy. And their armed forces in general. Looking at what's happened so far, this seems about in line with what the character seems capable of.

[Shroom Man 777]

If hiding and going into a safe point or staying low and waiting for further instruction is the protocol for Israeli submarines after they've launched nuclear missiles, the captain's going to follow it irregardless. I mean, shit, would you want your officers throwing your nuclear-launch protocols out of the window willy nilly just because they felt like it? Those orders are there for a reason, and he's gotta follow it unless he wants to go home and explain to his officers why he suddenly disobeyed protocol, and ends up facing a court martian.

[Old Peculier]

If hiding and going into a safe point or staying low and waiting for further instruction is the protocol for Israeli submarines after they've launched nuclear missiles, the captain's going to follow it irregardless. I mean, shit, would you want your officers throwing your nuclear-launch protocols out of the window willy nilly just because they felt like it? Those orders are there for a reason, and he's gotta follow it unless he wants to go home and explain to his officers why he suddenly disobeyed protocol, and ends up facing a court martian.

That's fine, but it's not the explanation Stuart gave.

EDIT: One might think that they'd have changed the protocols, given the situation. But perhaps they didn't get around to it. It wasn't really a high priority.

[Shroom Man 777]

Just because the world is waging a war against God doesn't mean that Israel, or any other nuclear-armed nation, would suddenly rewrite protocols regarding thermonuclear war against other nations. The USA has fucking war plans for Canada and the Vatican, for Christ's sake. I mean, even in WW2 Britain had plans for waging war against the Soviets - who were then their allies - in some possible scenario post Victory-in-Europe. This plan even used fucking captured/surrendered Nazi soldiers to fight with the Brits/Americans against the then-Allied Soviets! So, yeah, things are still NOT kum-ba-yahweh in the sunshine and nations, particularly nuclear-armed ones, and particularly one in the situation of Israel, probably maybe possibly most definitely really sure as hell WON'T get too complacent at all with their nuclear protocols involving killing the fuck out of their fellow man - be it human, demon, angel or Russian.

The Israeli captain, as Stuart said, literally did not "think about it" because there WAS nothing to think about. That's what you DO when you launch nukes, that's what you only do! No questions, soldier!

[thegreatpl]

Surely he also had a decent amount of time between fleeing and realizing he was being hunted to say 'Wait, why am I doing this? Let's surface and get some orders/intel'.

isnt that what he was doing when he got strafed? in addition to snorting.

also, giving such orders to "clear Datum" would probably be reflex. drilled into his mind on every drill and training operation. he probably didnt even really think about it.

how long is it until the communications officer is found out i wonder. that is the most logical position for a traitor, since you cut off communications, then you control the actions of the ship. surely the captain has to get suspicious sometime, and try the equipment himself, or get someone else to take a look. there must be several communication specialists on board, for different watch's. then again, i'm not military or from a military background, but it just seems to be a glaring weakness if you dont have multiple skills for each job on board, even on a ship with an extreme manpower limit like a sub. cross training would take care of that though.

indeed, everyone has plans for waging war against the most likely suspects, even if they are your allies. its just common sense.

[Darth Ruinus]

"Where? What type? How far? Get a hold on yourself Lieutenant."

"Twin-engined propeller job. Green. Five miles out, bearing oh-nine-three."

What does "green" mean? Friendly?

Anyways, I love the update, and look forward to whenever the Tekuma figures out what is going on, if ever.

[Stuart]

That's fine, but it's not the explanation Stuart gave.

It is really, Shroomie and I just said the same thing different ways. When nuclear weapons are around, everything is done exactly by the book, no improvisions, no judgement calls. There are procedures laid down and they are followed.

There's a good reason for that and it goes back to Saint Curtis and the early days of SAC. When LeMay took over SAC it was in appalling condition with none of its units ready for combat and the whole organization in turmoil. Saint Curtis had his faults but he was probably the best "operator" the USAAF/USAF ever had; he had a unique talent for taking things and making them work. When he took over SAC one of the first things that caught his eye was the accident rate; it was atrocious. Now, obviously, an accident with a nuclear weapon on board tends to be something better avoided. So, LeMay looked at that accident rate, assuming that it was inexperienced crews going in. To his surprise it wasn't. It was the more experienced crews that were crashing. The novices turned in mediocre performances but survived; the veterans turned in better performances until they crashed. Cutting a long story short, it turned out that the reason behind this was that the novices read their checklists and followed them exactly. As crews got more experienced and more confident, they started taking shortcuts and that eventually bit them in the ass. So Saint Curtis had manuals and checklists made for every operation and insisted they be followed to the letter - and those checklists were read, never done from memory. The accident rate fell dramatically and returned to the situation where the majority of crashes were novices making mistakes.

From that lesson came the habit of making everything a play-by-play list that is followed religiously. Fire missiles - then clear datum. It's not thought about or decided on, it's just done. This, by the way, is why mixing strategic forces with tactical forces is a very bad idea. Rigid protocols are excellent when handing strategic weapons such as nuclear devices, they are lethally dangerous in tactical situations. That was always a problem when we had tactical nuclear weapons around. For safety and security reasons they had to be treated strategically but for operational reasons they had to be treated tactically and the two just did not mix. That was why, had WW3 gone hot, the first strategic weapon employed would have been the 10-pound wrench used to hit the nuclear security officer over the head while he was reading his checklist.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I would've thought the FIRST strategic weapon would have been a flashlight to knock out the American attache with the launch codes to all the US missiles stationed in Britain so they could launch without our say-so.

[Simon_Jester]

What does "green" mean? Friendly?

It might simply mean that the aircraft is colored green.

[tortieconspiracy]

So Saint Curtis had manuals and checklists made for every operation and insisted they be followed to the letter - and those checklists were read, never done from memory. The accident rate fell dramatically and returned to the situation where the majority of crashes were novices making mistakes.

Interesting. I hope you don't mind me wandering off-topic a bit, but recent studies have shown that requiring health care workers to follow similar protocols (i.e. detailed checklists) cuts down on in-hospital infections and fatalities.

[Stuart Mackey]

That was why, had WW3 gone hot, the first strategic weapon employed would have been the 10-pound wrench used to hit the nuclear security officer over the head while he was reading his checklist.

Having worked with USAF types, I can see that happening. I can also see in the minds eye who would be doing it, and it is most amusing.

[Stuart]

I would've thought the FIRST strategic weapon would have been a flashlight to knock out the American attache with the launch codes to all the US missiles stationed in Britain so they could launch without our say-so.

That's the ten-pound wrench. Remember the first rule of hitting things; don't tap it, thump it.

recent studies have shown that requiring health care workers to follow similar protocols (i.e. detailed checklists) cuts down on in-hospital infections and fatalities.

Doesn't surprise me at all. Checklists are a marvellous tool towards getting things done properly as long as they are read, never done from memory. Even domestically they're a great help; they avoid the last-minute scramble and the "did we remember to" angst when leaving home for a period. They also avoid the frustration of the "how did I forget that" moment when something simple slipped somebody's mind (like the time somebody near where I live went to his car one morning, started up, put the car into reverse and backed out - only he'd forgotten to open the garage door. He was sitting there in the wreckage actually mumbling "how could I have done that?"). I have great faith in checklists

[Darth Ruinus]

What does "green" mean? Friendly?

It might simply mean that the aircraft is colored green.

I suppose so, but, they asked "What type?" and describing what color it is seems kinda irrelevant to what type of plane is coming at them. Don't militaries have rules against letting uselss/irrelevant chatter coming in during important situations?

Unless the color is somehow important? Again, I know next to nothing about militaries so I might just be missing the obvious "the plane is green."

[Panaka]

What does "green" mean? Friendly?

It might simply mean that the aircraft is colored green.

I suppose so, but, they asked "What type?" and describing what color it is seems kinda irrelevant to what type of plane is coming at them. Don't militaries have rules against letting uselss/irrelevant chatter coming in during important situations?

Unless the color is somehow important? Again, I know next to nothing about militaries so I might just be missing the obvious "the plane is green."

The starboard running light is green if I'm not mistaken. The guy could be saying that it's comming in from the right side of the sub.

[Burak Gazan]

The starboard running light is green if I'm not mistaken. The guy could be saying that it's comming in from the right side of the sub.

It is, but he also said 'bearing zero-nine-three' - if he had said aircraft bearing Green 0h-nine-three, that's 93 degrees relative to starboard; 093 degrees implies a true bearing. It's a nautical thing

[Torben]

Given that the US has set color schemes for its ground vehicles, ships, and aircraft, it is entirely possible he is simply reporting the color to help identify the country of origin. At the very least, for some reason he felt the color was relevant information to be passed on to his CO. But then, it is late, I am hopped up on cold medicine, and may be talking out of my ass. Take your pic

[Stuart]

Given that the US has set color schemes for its ground vehicles, ships, and aircraft, it is entirely possible he is simply reporting the color to help identify the country of origin. At the very least, for some reason he felt the color was relevant information to be passed on to his CO. But then, it is late, I am hopped up on cold medicine, and may be talking out of my ass. Take your pic

No, you're quite right. He was just reporting the color of the aircraft (which is significant; ASW aircraft are always gray).

[JonB]

No, you're quite right. He was just reporting the color of the aircraft (which is significant; ASW aircraft are always gray).

So, asking as a dumb Civvie, does that mean that Green is a training ship?

[Darth Ruinus]

Given that the US has set color schemes for its ground vehicles, ships, and aircraft, it is entirely possible he is simply reporting the color to help identify the country of origin. At the very least, for some reason he felt the color was relevant information to be passed on to his CO. But then, it is late, I am hopped up on cold medicine, and may be talking out of my ass. Take your pic

No, you're quite right. He was just reporting the color of the aircraft (which is significant; ASW aircraft are always gray).

Oh jesus.
Don't I feel silly. Seriously, the only times I ever see military jets they are always gray or blueish gray, but then again, this is whenever I see modern jets.

Oh ok, so he reported the color to signify "this is not a plane equipped to deal with submarines"? Why are ASW (antisubmarine warfare?) aircraft gray?

[starslayer]

Why are ASW (antisubmarine warfare?) aircraft gray?

I would guess for the same reason that most other naval aircraft are painted gray: it provides the best average visual camouflage over all weather conditions, IIRC.

[Simon_Jester]

So he probably just reported the color because it's so unusual to see a green warplane flying around out there.

Getting positive visual ID on a plane from five miles out isn't trivial, especially when it's a type that hasn't been on anyone's military identification charts in decades. So the person who reports the contact just describes the plane to the limit of their ability (range, direction, number of engines, color); the captain takes a closer look and figures out exactly what it is.

[JBG]

So he probably just reported the color because it's so unusual to see a green warplane flying around out there.

Getting positive visual ID on a plane from five miles out isn't trivial, especially when it's a type that hasn't been on anyone's military identification charts in decades. So the person who reports the contact just describes the plane to the limit of their ability (range, direction, number of engines, color); the captain takes a closer look and figures out exactly what it is.

The "colour" most used, on USN F/A-18s for example, is haze grey. To fit in with the near surface sea haze.

The second officer obviously knows his warbirds if at distance he can pick out a B-25! Even the Captain may need a recognition manual (in WW2 terms) or a quick download of a digital picture into a database search scenario to pick out such an old bird!

As a side point for those who enjoy firepower, the solid nose version of the B25J had another six I believe .50 calibre machine guns, mounted in the nose. Hmmm, double the .50s firing forward

The glass nose version though was the better one for the narrative's sake as it was a training flight and the need to train navigators in the olden ways was mentioned.

A thought - the aircraft sent a message basically describing the action and damage done. A short while later the nav notices the sub going north but the captain did not direct the radio operator to report the sub's observed bearing after submerging. Even if only to confirm a previous course, I think that that info should have been sent, if only as a CYA in later de-briefs.

[Blayne]

Maybe they're code words? "Green" for bombers, "Grey" for ASW capable aircraft etc and not the actual colour.

[Shroom Man 777]

No.

No, you're quite right. He was just reporting the color of the aircraft (which is significant; ASW aircraft are always gray).

This is the plane:



So, yeah. It's a twin-engined propeller job colored green, five miles out, with a bearing of oh-nine-three.

[Simon_Jester]

Hah! I knew it!

The military uses a lot of code-words, but it seems to me that when you get into the mindset, most of them are visibly related to the things they're codes for. The exceptions are mostly being used in complicated situations where people are too busy concentrating to figure out long sentences. Thus "Fox Two" instead of "I just fired a heat-seeking missile."

There's no reason to use "green" or "gray" as codes for various aircraft types.