SDN In the Sea of Time

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, yeah. If that idea comes up in Council, I'd like to have words with whoever was fool enough to suggest it.

If I was on the council, I would be voicing the need for Debriefing, Quarantine and Protective custody of Packer and his companion to all who would listen, and even those who wouldn't.

Trouble is, it makes sense to talk to him, to debrief him. It makes sense to put Nara into quarantine for medical reasons, though she's not the main threat in any case. But it makes less than no sense to do something that will predictably be seen as a punishment against Packer, let alone something that really is a punishment.

It's not even a question of "legitimacy versus survival." It's a question of keeping both, or losing both.

Authors permitting, I've got a lot to say about this...

[Scottish Ninja]

If - as he seems to be doing with the Machinists right now - he's planning on lying low for the moment, it's a possibility that the Council will feel unable to react. With Packer clamping down on political activity, if the Council moves now they may expose their true motives.

The council does not know what Packer is up to at this point nor what his intentions are, and was not expecting Nara at all. He's a variable, and much to big of one to be left to his own devices.

This is true, but I'm suggesting they may lack the political will to act pre-emptively. They will certainly react if Packer stirs up public trouble (as opposed to what he's done simply by returning), but

People may have discounted the wild conspiracy theories before, but if they see the Watch come and arrest Packer shortly after his Triumphant Return From a Successful Mission™, they may start believing them now. It would be almost as if the FBI had gunned down the makers of Loose Change. Things like that tend to lend credibility to someone's claims of conspiracy.

Political legitimacy takes second fiddle to survival. I'm not sure how many members of the forum recognize this. Packer didn't when his charter got shot down, and his followers don't now.

And I'm saying that the kind of hit the Council would take to their legitimacy under those circumstances may spell doom to their long-term survival. Remember, at this point things have stabilized a bit more on the island. They're already having trouble justifying some of their actions.

Of course, the Council could have the Watch arrest him and pretend that he's being "debriefed", but I imagine that explanation wouldn't hold for too long; a few days max. After that people are definitely going to suspect something's up. Quarantine wouldn't work as an explanation since he's already in the hospital. Either way they've got trouble on their hands.

Two words: Protective Custody. You can even hold him at the hospital if you need too, but he needs to be kept away from everyone for his own safety. What happens when some young guy on a tear-down crew realizes that his hero doesn't want to overthrow the council? Could the young nut go after him with some tools? What if they go after Nara?

That's an interesting point, and certainly one I hadn't thought of, though I still feel that many people would remain suspicious of "Protective Custody" if it's done before anyone says or tries anything. Like I said, I think the Council's lost the initiative here, and the steps that they could take to regain it could be their road to ruin, given that they'd generally be viewed as heavy-handed.

[Tiwaz]

This is true, but I'm suggesting they may lack the political will to act pre-emptively. They will certainly react if Packer stirs up public trouble (as opposed to what he's done simply by returning), but

You forget that there is strong core around Shark who do not lack will to act immorally to preserve their position. This far in story we do not see an opposing force of equal cohesion and strength. Most of others are more or less passive and appear to be within his ability to manipulate.

People are prepared to accept stuff Shark throws at them because they serve their own interests.
While also soothing the conscience by making them able to think that they managed to wash their hands from the dirty deeds by letting Shark pull it off.

Mere return of Packer is huge blow to position of the Council as power structure. Not only returned, but returned with wife and tale of success in the harsh mainland. Not to mention fear that the real story behind Packers "voluntary" trip might get out now.

Packer is now a hero, with all the perks that come with that title. Like getting a large, strong throng of followers easily.

And I'm saying that the kind of hit the Council would take to their legitimacy under those circumstances may spell doom to their long-term survival. Remember, at this point things have stabilized a bit more on the island. They're already having trouble justifying some of their actions.

Stabilized yes, with the Council still on top. With nearly a year to get comfortable at thought and position as top dogs. They have trouble justifying their deeds, but they still have will to remain there as oligarchy. Or at least lack significant will to break up the oligarchy.

That's an interesting point, and certainly one I hadn't thought of, though I still feel that many people would remain suspicious of "Protective Custody" if it's done before anyone says or tries anything. Like I said, I think the Council's lost the initiative here, and the steps that they could take to regain it could be their road to ruin, given that they'd generally be viewed as heavy-handed.

What is there to prevent from manufacturing either successful or failed attempt on Packer?
Also there is option of medical quarantine which can be imposed. It is more easily justified if you also put those who came to contact with Packer and Nara when they arrived into similar conditions.

While making it possible to pile up accusations on Packer for risking whole next generation of babies by bringing his wife to maternity ward straight from boat, which came straight from mainland which, as admitted by Packer himself, is loaded with pathogens that can put healthy male down for nearly a week.

With that the Council can both isolate Packer and try to add some dirt on him.

[Formless]

You realize that their current plan to get more women will eventually force the into exposing themselves to those mainland pathogens, right? All packer has done is expose them early, presumably at a stage where they are more equipped still to deal with them.

[Tiwaz]

You realize that their current plan to get more women will eventually force the into exposing themselves to those mainland pathogens, right? All packer has done is expose them early, presumably at a stage where they are more equipped still to deal with them.

And since when politics has been about logic and rationality?

It is useful way to capture Packer to hopefully keep him from causing more problems to the Council, and as excuse is much more valid than debriefing or protective custody.

And to extrapolate on point about them presenting pathogens with native women. You have to remember that they can also control how and when these pathogens are introduced. Namely by keeping pregnant women without immunity away from native women. Nara was simply brought to maternity ward, where she comes into contact with pregnant women.

It is one thing to introduce the pathogens first to the portion of population which has best chances to survive it, and another to introduce it to the pregnant women directly.

Once modern woman has been introduced to pathogens and developed resistance it will not be a threat to her pregnancy, but if you introduce pathogens in the middle of pregnancy you are presenting greater risk.

But ultimately, it would be less about quarantine and more about imprisoning Packer.

[Formless]

And since when politics has been about logic and rationality?

It is useful way to capture Packer to hopefully keep him from causing more problems to the Council, and as excuse is much more valid than debriefing or protective custody.

We're dealing with people from this board. Sure, we aren't completely rational, but we specialize in seeing through that kind of bullshit smokescreen. You said that this is one more misdeed they can pin on Packer, when its completely out of his control. If anyone is to blame for exposing the maternity ward to potential pathogens (if indeed its even a real danger) its the hospital staff, and even then no one at the hospital was prepared for this event due Packer's plans and marriage being secret from everyone by necessity. If they try to claim that Packer acted unethically by exposing the town to native pathogens people are going to call bullshit. And in a scenario as volatile as this one, that could mean Very Bad Things for the status quo.

Now, if they used quarantine as an excuse to detain him, that might be valid. But that can't last forever. Quarantine usually means waiting until the person is decontaminated or otherwise safe to risk exposing the population to. Protective custody on the other hand is not only valid, its something Packer might not even object to, for his wife's sake. Which of these options do you really think the council is going to use?

And lets not forget that Packer is now a potential asset as well as their enemy. He knows the native's language and he married into their tribe. From the Council's point of view Packer could be just what they need to make their relations with the natives a peaceful one. Or, if you want to give a more paranoid sounding spin to it, for all they know if Packer and Nara don't come back in one piece the natives could take that as a warning that the White Men From Nantucket are not to be trusted. After all, they weren't privileged to the conversation Packer had with Nara's father, so they have no idea that he specifically warned him not to try and fight. This is a big fucking deal, and something the council is sure to consider before making any moves.

[Tiwaz]

We're dealing with people from this board. Sure, we aren't completely rational, but we specialize in seeing through that kind of bullshit smokescreen. You said that this is one more misdeed they can pin on Packer, when its completely out of his control. If anyone is to blame for exposing the maternity ward to potential pathogens (if indeed its even a real danger) its the hospital staff, and even then no one at the hospital was prepared for this event due Packer's plans and marriage being secret from everyone by necessity. If they try to claim that Packer acted unethically by exposing the town to native pathogens people are going to call bullshit. And in a scenario as volatile as this one, that could mean Very Bad Things for the status quo.

And yet, as has been argued very well in this very thread, people would not see through equally bullshit smokescreen set up regarding Packer suddenly having change of heart, seeing that the Council is right and deciding to go for single man expedition to the mainland.

If we have case of valid concern for introduction of various pathogens into the pregnant population vs sudden change of heart of guy who makes big compelling speeches for democracy I would say that it is more likely that the people would question someone having so sudden change of heart and not actual medical concern.

As for blaming hospital staff... Nobody can be really blamed beyond Packer who was only one who knew whom and where he was going to bring.

Now, if they used quarantine as an excuse to detain him, that might be valid. But that can't last forever. Quarantine usually means waiting until the person is decontaminated or otherwise safe to risk exposing the population to. Protective custody on the other hand is not only valid, its something Packer might not even object to, for his wife's sake. Which of these options do you really think the council is going to use?

How are they going to justify the protective custody? They need valid reason to presume that Packer and/or his wife are in actual danger.

Furthermore, they have to manage to convince people that Packer and his wife are safe amongst the people who are seen as loyal to the Council, as opposed to having for example bodyguard of the machinists.

And lets not forget that Packer is now a potential asset as well as their enemy. He knows the native's language and he married into their tribe. From the Council's point of view Packer could be just what they need to make their relations with the natives a peaceful one. Or, if you want to give a more paranoid sounding spin to it, for all they know if Packer and Nara don't come back in one piece the natives could take that as a warning that the White Men From Nantucket are not to be trusted. After all, they weren't privileged to the conversation Packer had with Nara's father, so they have no idea that he specifically warned him not to try and fight. This is a big fucking deal, and something the council is sure to consider before making any moves.

And have you thought that neither they do know how Packer intends to use his powerbase with the natives? Not only would Packer now have support from ranks of the machinists and hogriculturists but natives as well. That would make him bigger threat, to level where it can easily outweight any possible potential of Packer as an asset.

Biggest issue for the Council right now is how they keep their own throne steady and keep anyone from rocking the boat. And Packer has managed to earmark himself as a grade-A boat rocker.

[Formless]

And yet, as has been argued very well in this very thread, people would not see through equally bullshit smokescreen set up regarding Packer suddenly having change of heart, seeing that the Council is right and deciding to go for single man expedition to the mainland.

If we have case of valid concern for introduction of various pathogens into the pregnant population vs sudden change of heart of guy who makes big compelling speeches for democracy I would say that it is more likely that the people would question someone having so sudden change of heart and not actual medical concern.

Tiwaz, I am a part of this board, and I saw through it without even resorting to knowledge privileged to the audience's perspective. The simple fact is that Packer isn't responsible for the health of Nantucket's population or mothers-- the doctors are because keeping people healthy is the job they are trained to do. Its entirely plausible that Packer wouldn't think of this because he does not have medical training. If the council tries pinning that against Packer I would be calling bullshit, as would many other people here.

As for blaming hospital staff... Nobody can be really blamed beyond Packer who was only one who knew whom and where he was going to bring.

Wrong. Packer is the only one who knew the specifics, but no one is suggesting that you shouldn't treat a guy who has been in the wilderness among a native population as if he is potentially carrying something. The doctor even asked him about it, so clearly they understand this concept. Again, it is the medical professionals and NOT Packer who is responsible for the health of their patients and the island at large. If anyone fucked up, its them.

How are they going to justify the protective custody? They need valid reason to presume that Packer and/or his wife are in actual danger.

In a society as blatantly divided and volatile as this one? Give me a break. Its pretty obvious that a demagogue/legend like Packer is not safe here.

Furthermore, they have to manage to convince people that Packer and his wife are safe amongst the people who are seen as loyal to the Council, as opposed to having for example bodyguard of the machinists.

This is a much better point, you should have used it sooner. However, I must point out that as has already been established not all of the Watch is 100% loyal to the council, and they are the one's who would be protecting him. There is some wiggle room for political correctness there. Also, if Packer is going to say to Jason Terrence what I think he is going to say to Jason Terrence, and the contents of said conversation make it around the Island, the plausibility of "protective custody" is going to go up a lot for reasons already stated by others.

And have you thought that neither they do know how Packer intends to use his powerbase with the natives? Not only would Packer now have support from ranks of the machinists and hogriculturists but natives as well. That would make him bigger threat, to level where it can easily outweight any possible potential of Packer as an asset.

No, they obviously don't know, but they can guess. The problem is he now has a lot more power than he previously did. This means they can no longer afford not to be cautious around him. However, he does have knowledge they need in order to peacefully interact with the natives. This cannot be understated-- their long term survival depends on getting native women, remember?

Biggest issue for the Council right now is how they keep their own throne steady and keep anyone from rocking the boat. And Packer has managed to earmark himself as a grade-A boat rocker.

I disagree. Right now the council needs to be prudent and see what Packer will do next. Remember that a good number of them aren't Sharks, there are Simons and Mikes among them still. I know at least some of these people would be willing to consider the possibility that Packer may in fact be a changed man-- he is married, you know. That's a big fucking deal. You don't start a family while simultaneously trying to fight a war.

[Tiwaz]

Tiwaz, I am a part of this board, and I saw through it without even resorting to knowledge privileged to the audience's perspective. The simple fact is that Packer isn't responsible for the health of Nantucket's population or mothers-- the doctors are because keeping people healthy is the job they are trained to do. Its entirely plausible that Packer wouldn't think of this because he does not have medical training. If the council tries pinning that against Packer I would be calling bullshit, as would many other people here.

Really? Could you tell me how you can avoid having the knowledge audience is permitted to from affecting your estimate?

I would expect someone who just came from area where there are potentially dangerous pathogens around to figure out that it is NOT safe to waltz into part of hospital where pregnant mothers are located.

My wife is expecting a child right now, we actually went through most of the pig flu craze in this situation. They had disinfectant bottles loaded at every junction at the clinic where they performed ultra examinations. And maternity ward is off limits to everyone but immediate family (as in, dad and kids) due to H1N1 risk.

I would never absolve Packer from blame if his actions resulted in some of the expecting mothers to catch pathogen he or his wife brings in.

Wrong. Packer is the only one who knew the specifics, but no one is suggesting that you shouldn't treat a guy who has been in the wilderness among a native population as if he is potentially carrying something. The doctor even asked him about it, so clearly they understand this concept. Again, it is the medical professionals and NOT Packer who is responsible for the health of their patients and the island at large. If anyone fucked up, its them.

True enough, medical people fucked up yes, but I am prepared to admit that Packer blindsided them totally with his approach. They had just about zero previous knowledge on the issue.

They were prepared to treat guy who came from mainland, as such there was one nurse expecting him. Reduced ability to give people nasty virus.

Nara on other hand was taken into maternity wing, fuckup of medical profession yes, and Packer even arranged for one expecting mother to go talk to her.

In a society as blatantly divided and volatile as this one? Give me a break. Its pretty obvious that a demagogue/legend like Packer is not safe here.

Where is proof of his danger? You can't just say "things are really dangerous here for Packer so we took him into protective custody". Fuck, if you are one of the councilmen and came out with line like that you are basically saying "We don't like Packer, we are putting him in custody."

You need some valid concern of danger before you can isolate Packer. Saying that someone might in such volatile situation be a threat is not enough.

This is a much better point, you should have used it sooner. However, I must point out that as has already been established not all of the Watch is 100% loyal to the council, and they are the one's who would be protecting him. There is some wiggle room for political correctness there. Also, if Packer is going to say to Jason Terrence what I think he is going to say to Jason Terrence, and the contents of said conversation make it around the Island, the plausibility of "protective custody" is going to go up a lot for reasons already stated by others.

And the Council would want Packer surrounded by his own armed goons because?

Because it is not fair if your potential enemy in uprising does not have armed guard?

The Council wants Packer in it's OWN custody, not hand over armed bodyguard to someone who has ability to go Robespierre on their heads.

No, they obviously don't know, but they can guess. The problem is he now has a lot more power than he previously did. This means they can no longer afford not to be cautious around him. However, he does have knowledge they need in order to peacefully interact with the natives. This cannot be understated-- their long term survival depends on getting native women, remember?

But the councilmen depend on status quo in terms of government. They very well can accept loss of Packer and his contacts with natives if it means their position remains stable on the top.

I disagree. Right now the council needs to be prudent and see what Packer will do next. Remember that a good number of them aren't Sharks, there are Simons and Mikes among them still. I know at least some of these people would be willing to consider the possibility that Packer may in fact be a changed man-- he is married, you know. That's a big fucking deal. You don't start a family while simultaneously trying to fight a war.

You know, amount of marriages during wartime is often far higher than amount of marriages outside wartime conditions. It is direct result of immediate danger making people grasp int0 the moment they have instead of thinking far into future.

As for Simons and Mikes, there are those. But they appear to be in minority compared to Sharks and Lambs. And Sharks lead Lambs.

We are talking about guy who wanted to kick the Council out of their comfortable, cushioned chairs. Now we speak of date nearly half a year later when that seat is getting even more cushy and nice to keep.

Do you honestly think that amount of people in the Council who consider themselves to be entitled to their cushy position has been reduced as time has gone by? Longer the delay, greater the resistance to change is bound to be.

Last time Packer was rocking the boat, the council felt that the future of the community required that he is removed. Now, the Council will again feel that the future of the community, and specifically their future, requires him to be removed.

There is a reason why people who gain great power and later on voluntarily relinquish it are spoken so reverently in history, because they are extremely rare. Give average man power and time to get used to it, and they try to grip to it ever tighter as the time goes by.

Anyway, I'll leave this discussion here for time being so we do not hijack the thread too badly.

[Scottish Ninja]

Don't forget that the Council is not a monolithic bloc, either. Many of them were on Packer's side the first go-round. More still were at least vaguely in favor of the Charter, but were convinced by the Shark that it wasn't a good idea at the time. And speaking of him, I imagine his credibility and influence took a hit when Kaley dumped him, given the influence the women have on Island politics. I wouldn't be too sure that he's still really in a position of power. On the Council still, probably, but less influential than he was.

[Shermpotter]

The difference between then (when Packer left) and now at his return is the fact that he succeeded at the task the council ostensibly sent him to do. To do anything now, when it is very obvious that the council is rather lacking in support even amongst the Watch would be suicidal. I am in politics, and I know how they play the games. It is dirty and it truly sucks, but seldom do politicians do anything that would be suicidal. You are right, they want to hold onto their jobs, but they also don't want to rule over a wasteland or worse yet suffer the Louis XVI treatment. I think that is coming if this continues along this track. A descent in chaos is almost inevitable if the council doesn't live up to their promises. It is clear from reading this that the Watch is beginning to lose faith in the council. The Old Man's actions seem to speak volumes to this in the last chapter before this one in how the guy who broke the rules was handled. I am very interested to see where this is going.

[Simon_Jester]

You realize that their current plan to get more women will eventually force the into exposing themselves to those mainland pathogens, right? All packer has done is expose them early, presumably at a stage where they are more equipped still to deal with them.

I'm a little iffy about whether this really was a "mainland pathogen" that got him so sick. It's certainly possible. But remember the way things actually worked out during the Columbian Exchange, there are no confirmed cases of an infectious disease spreading from the Native Americans to Europeans. The only one I can think of that might have come from the New World is syphilis, and that could just as well have already been an Old World disease (possibly mistaken for leprosy).

It seems more probable to me that Packer was suffering from severe food poisoning or some kind of parasite that his immune system wasn't prepared to cope with- which wouldn't be nearly as infectious as an actual disease.

Where is proof of his danger? You can't just say "things are really dangerous here for Packer so we took him into protective custody". Fuck, if you are one of the councilmen and came out with line like that you are basically saying "We don't like Packer, we are putting him in custody."

You could give him visitor rights. Or, hell, you could let him out to talk to people once in a while, without letting him sneak around the island at night (theoretically) stirring up revolutionary sentiment. It's not exactly difficult to convince people that Packer isn't being held in a dungeon and tortured for his heroic resistance to the Council if Packer himself is willing to cooperate.

Which, incidentally, has a lot to do with why people believed the Council's story about Packer going off alone to scout the mainland. For two weeks, Packer was walking around and talking to the people who were giving him a crash course in survival skills, and (because his friends were threatened), he acted as if he seriously intended to go do this. That has a lot more to do with convincing people than anything the Council can say directly. If you can get the person you're supposedly holding against their will to testify to outsiders that you are not so holding them, it kills a lot of rumors in a hurry.

As for Simons and Mikes, there are those. But they appear to be in minority compared to Sharks and Lambs. And Sharks lead Lambs.

Heh. I have my own take on Council politics; more on that later.

[Formless]

Really? Could you tell me how you can avoid having the knowledge audience is permitted to from affecting your estimate?

Because Packer is not a trained medical professional, and the doctors should have known better. Are you really this dense? Its not his hospital, he does not have a duty to care for the patients there. He went in to seek medical help for his wife, and the doctors were the ones who let him into the maternity ward. He didn't demand that they do so, he didn't threaten anyone. The doctors told him to go there rather to a quarantined area. How is any of this his fault?

I would expect someone who just came from area where there are potentially dangerous pathogens around to figure out that it is NOT safe to waltz into part of hospital where pregnant mothers are located.

Do you realize how many people don't understand the first thing about disease? Or how to run a hospital? Seriously, dude. Think for just two seconds. Packer did not force his way into the maternity ward, the doctors let him in. That means they are to blame, not Packer

My wife is expecting a child right now, we actually went through most of the pig flu craze in this situation. They had disinfectant bottles loaded at every junction at the clinic where they performed ultra examinations. And maternity ward is off limits to everyone but immediate family (as in, dad and kids) due to H1N1 risk.

I would never absolve Packer from blame if his actions resulted in some of the expecting mothers to catch pathogen he or his wife brings in.

Congratulations, you are now thinking with your emotions and not logic.

That's not a compliment, FYI.

True enough, medical people fucked up yes, but I am prepared to admit that Packer blindsided them totally with his approach. They had just about zero previous knowledge on the issue.

They were prepared to treat guy who came from mainland, as such there was one nurse expecting him. Reduced ability to give people nasty virus.

Nara on other hand was taken into maternity wing, fuckup of medical profession yes, and Packer even arranged for one expecting mother to go talk to her.

Of course he blindsighted them. He couldn't do it any other way. There was no way for him to safely communicate that he was even coming back, let alone that he was married and expecting a child. Furthermore, at this point Packer obviously has other things to attend to, so its understandable that he might be a bit distracted and not realize that there is a problem. Consider that the RL Packer didn't think of this, I'm not surprised the fictional one didn't either. The man isn't a medical professional, why expect him to act like one?

Where is proof of his danger? You can't just say "things are really dangerous here for Packer so we took him into protective custody". Fuck, if you are one of the councilmen and came out with line like that you are basically saying "We don't like Packer, we are putting him in custody."

You need some valid concern of danger before you can isolate Packer. Saying that someone might in such volatile situation be a threat is not enough.

This is ridiculous. The island is divided over ideas Packer espoused. How can you miss something so blatantly obvious? OR are you just being stubborn because you don't want to admit you are being stupid?

And the Council would want Packer surrounded by his own armed goons because?

Because it is not fair if your potential enemy in uprising does not have armed guard?

No, because they want to save face over the entire debacle, and this makes it look like they are on his side. OR Vice Verse. I'm not saying it would work, because at this point they are damned if they do damned if they don't, but I am saying that its a possibility.

But the councilmen depend on status quo in terms of government. They very well can accept loss of Packer and his contacts with natives if it means their position remains stable on the top.

And in so doing they have (potentially) selfishly doomed the entire population by making enemies of the natives, thus forfeiting all pretense of existing for the good and survival of their society. If they did this, they would forever lose whatever legitimacy they might have had. They were the one's who suggested contact with the natives as the best course of action to ensure Nantucket's long term survival, if they do a 180 on that now people will know these SOB's aren't worth the blood flowing through their veins. I for one would no longer have a problem with throwing them to the wolves at that point. And I don't see myself as being someone who would take a side up till that point.

Do you honestly think that amount of people in the Council who consider themselves to be entitled to their cushy position has been reduced as time has gone by? Longer the delay, greater the resistance to change is bound to be.

Very well, but what I'm trying to tell you is that if they don't treat Packer delicately, they could be in for far worse than just losing their jobs and social status. We're talking about something that could lose them their lives at spear point or French Revolution style, or both.

[Alferd Packer]

Of course he blindsighted them. He couldn't do it any other way. There was no way for him to safely communicate that he was even coming back, let alone that he was married and expecting a child. Furthermore, at this point Packer obviously has other things to attend to, so its understandable that he might be a bit distracted and not realize that there is a problem. Consider that the RL Packer didn't think of this, I'm not surprised the fictional one didn't either. The man isn't a medical professional, why expect him to act like one?

Actually, I did consider and even wrote a bit about quarantine, and I will be frank: it was some of the most awful, boring stuff I've ever written, even counting the stories I wrote when I was 12. I could not make it even remotely interesting, and it brought the entire story to a screeching halt. Remember, I'm writing this from a single character's perspective. I can't look at what's going on outside. Let's say I run my characters through a 72 hour quarantine; afterwards, I'm exactly where I was if I hadn't, except I've got some exposition about Packer and Nara looking out of the windows, sleeping, and undergoing periodic blood tests. Also, now the Council has had time to prepare, and I, as an author, have to spend time bringing Packer and, by extension, the audience, up to speed in the most boring way possible.

Seriously, unless you're trying to escape from or maintain one, quarantines make for an awful story. I tried. I really did. I recognize the practical necessity, but not the dramatic one. In fact, the doctors failing to implement a quarantine makes for much better storytelling. For example, can you punish literally irreplaceable doctors? Do you just cross your fingers and hope that no one gets sick? Cordon off the entire maternity wing?

Finally, remember that the damage is done. While pregnant women are more vulnerable, there are still some twenty-seven hundred other people on Nantucket. If Packer or Nara has something nasty, it's already spread to Miles Jameson and the Horticulturists who escorted Packer and Nara to the hospital. They've been running around like lunatics for hours now, spreading the word and Cthulhu knows what else. Quarantine was blown in minute Packer and Nara stepped on shore.

[TimothyC]

Finally, remember that the damage is done. While pregnant women are more vulnerable, there are still some twenty-seven hundred other people on Nantucket. If Packer or Nara has something nasty, it's already spread to Miles Jameson and the Horticulturists who escorted Packer and Nara to the hospital. They've been running around like lunatics for hours now, spreading the word and Cthulhu knows what else. Quarantine was blown in minute Packer and Nara stepped on shore.

And the fact that he paid no heed to the public health (even if the situation is he just didn't think about it) can be brought up against him. In fact I could see the charge of criminal negligence being brought up against him:

"Why didn't you stop off shore and submit to a quarantine?"

"I didn't think----" (Obviously going some place but cut off)

"That's the problem you never do! First you start a political movement by filling the heads of young impressionable members of society that they can effect change by just asking for it without thinking through the consequences, leading to a militant reaction when the movement fails. Now you potentially bring a whole host of diseases to the island without the slightest concern for the public health!..."

Edit: One thing I do like is that Packer now gets it that 'long term' situations are not next year or even five years out, but are in point of fact, ten, twenty, or even thirty years down the line.

[Simon_Jester]

Although, just to reiterate, the historical record gives us no reason to expect that the Native Americans (and, by extension, Packer) are carrying infectious diseases likely to threaten modern immune systems. Europeans who went to the New World were rarely laid low by "exotic" diseases, as often happened in Africa and the Indies. Except for a few things things like malaria that exist everywhere, the Americas were not a dangerous disease environment.

On top of this, I'm given to understand that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle in the Americas was not conducive to the spread of infectious disease: you had lots of relatively small groups, too small to support lethal epidemics, that rarely came into contact. But I'm getting that from Jared Diamond, so I don't know how much salt to sprinkle on top of it.

[Sute]

Considering that Miles and Kevin have been to the mainland, been intimate with natives, and returned to Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard well before Packer and Nara arrived on Nantucket, I think that there has already been plenty of chances for any contamination that was going to occur, to occur.

[Tiwaz]

Because Packer is not a trained medical professional, and the doctors should have known better. Are you really this dense? Its not his hospital, he does not have a duty to care for the patients there. He went in to seek medical help for his wife, and the doctors were the ones who let him into the maternity ward. He didn't demand that they do so, he didn't threaten anyone. The doctors told him to go there rather to a quarantined area. How is any of this his fault?

So Packer is an imbecile? Everyone past their first decade in modern world knows how bacteria and virus spread. That he never thinks about danger he can present to population by getting his wife and himself into maternity wards shows that he is either imbecile or just does not, as pointed out by others, think seriously.

Do you realize how many people don't understand the first thing about disease? Or how to run a hospital? Seriously, dude. Think for just two seconds. Packer did not force his way into the maternity ward, the doctors let him in. That means they are to blame, not Packer

Maybe where you come from people are stupid enough not to know about bacteria and viruses, but over here we know how that crap works well before we hit 20 years.

He did not force his way in physically, but he DID push his agenda without letting medical professionals time to consider the situation.

PACKER had days and weeks to think what he does when he comes to Nantucket with his wife, nurses and doctors had to react to situation they had never perhaps even given previous thought in matter or hours at best.

While medical staff did commit mistake, bigger mistake is on Packer for failing to think ahead. And that is definitely something which can be used against him.

Congratulations, you are now thinking with your emotions and not logic.

That's not a compliment, FYI.

Apparently you are unable to think with logic...

Guess what I just pointed out in my post? That pregnant women in our current, functional and developed world have to be protected from introduction of potentially hazardous pathogens very carefully. To point where during any serious threat of epidemic of simple flu there are serious restrictions on visiting rights and increased amount of hygiene requirements in areas where they are gathered.

In Nantucket this is bit different. Pregnant women are not likely to be introduced to any dangerous new diseases as long as island is isolated. Packer alone could have been kept far enough of pregnant women to present minimal danger. But then he essentially pushes using his advantage of surprise his wife to maternity ward.

Doctors never had a chance to think the issue through very well thanks to Packer never revealing such relevant information until situation was at hand. Doctors are not automatons, they do not (specially in community like Nantucket where there is little need for it) have automated biohazard programming. They need time to think things over.

Of course he blindsighted them. He couldn't do it any other way. There was no way for him to safely communicate that he was even coming back, let alone that he was married and expecting a child. Furthermore, at this point Packer obviously has other things to attend to, so its understandable that he might be a bit distracted and not realize that there is a problem. Consider that the RL Packer didn't think of this, I'm not surprised the fictional one didn't either. The man isn't a medical professional, why expect him to act like one?

Because RL Packer has much more things in his mind than try to live life of his alter ego.
Story Packer had days and weeks to mill this whole issue over.
He knows more than enough of diseases and how they work to figure out his family might be packing something dangerous to Nantucket population.

This is ridiculous. The island is divided over ideas Packer espoused. How can you miss something so blatantly obvious? OR are you just being stubborn because you don't want to admit you are being stupid?

Yeah, which ones are going to attack Packer? His supporters or supporters of the Council?
Packer also told flat out that he was wrong. And after that was gone for ages.

Can't you admit that you are being stupid by pretending that Packer, if feeling that he is under threat, would want to have ANYTHING to do with the Councils "protective custody"?

No, because they want to save face over the entire debacle, and this makes it look like they are on his side. OR Vice Verse. I'm not saying it would work, because at this point they are damned if they do damned if they don't, but I am saying that its a possibility.

You really do not think straight. Put yourself in shoes of the Council for a moment and think realistically.

Last time they saw Packer, he was rocking the boat and trying to kick down the Council. After that, they managed to blackmail him into what was supposed to be a fucking suicide.

Now they presume that all the bad things are things of the past and hugs of friendship shall be shared by all and Packer will go along with their protective custody?
And if they hand him armed core for his potential new uprising, far easier now with strong discontent in the population, he would never dream of taking advantage of it!

Of course not.

And in so doing they have (potentially) selfishly doomed the entire population by making enemies of the natives, thus forfeiting all pretense of existing for the good and survival of their society. If they did this, they would forever lose whatever legitimacy they might have had. They were the one's who suggested contact with the natives as the best course of action to ensure Nantucket's long term survival, if they do a 180 on that now people will know these SOB's aren't worth the blood flowing through their veins. I for one would no longer have a problem with throwing them to the wolves at that point. And I don't see myself as being someone who would take a side up till that point.

Natives? ONE tribe of natives. We have knowledge that natives of North America were never unified group. They might lose touch with one of the tribes which does not mean they lose touch with the rest.

Furthermore, Packer is not going to be executed straight away or anything as stupid as that. He would be most likely put into medical quarantine, something nobody can fault the Council for establishing.
It does not matter that quarantine was breached already, it is valid concern until it is proven that Packer and Nara are not danger and will buy time to prepare and plan. It does not matter if Miles and rest have been on mainland, it does not matter if damage is done. They have valid case of trying to minimize the damage (and would most likely have other people in quarantine to increase the credibility).

While handily give them ability to restrict whom and when will see Packer and eavesdrop on the discussion. After all, purpose of quarantine is not to let just anyone wander into the room, so discussions would not take place at intimate range where whispering is an option.

They can, and will, make it clear how careless Packer was when he pulled his surprise entry to hospital and maternity wing. Because everyone with head on their shoulders should and would think of the danger of potentially introducing dangerous diseases to pregnant female population. This reduces to some extent his credibility and helps establish him as hothead who never thinks about consequences of his actions beyond his own nose.

But if nothing else helps, the Council would hardly shed much tears if Packer had to be dealt with in final way. At that point danger of rebellion would be imminent anyway and the Council could not trust that if they lost they would come out with their heads attached to their shoulders.

So why not go for broke? Specially if you can go for pre-emptive strike and try to deal rebellion serious blow before actual fighting begins.

If they lose, they are fucked either way. If they win, they are in serious trouble with loss of population, most likely ruined relations to one native tribe and so forth, but can try to sort out their way and remain on top. But it beats the option "end up sent to Muskeget for next couple of years or with your head on the pike".

Before they get to that point, there are still many stages to go through unless someone does something monumentally stupid. But that is scenario to which the Council has to prepare for.

Very well, but what I'm trying to tell you is that if they don't treat Packer delicately, they could be in for far worse than just losing their jobs and social status. We're talking about something that could lose them their lives at spear point or French Revolution style, or both.

Because of which they cannot go down the "protective custody" route. Nobody would buy that shit and Packer would never offer himself into custody of the Council.

Handing him actually loyal armed bodyguard from the Watch would be equally idiotic. If things go south, Packer would have ready core of people with guns and training. Would take an idiot or person with suicidal tendencies to think that it is a good idea, unless you have some guarantee that Packer would or could not use this resource against the Council.

[Simon_Jester]

So Packer is an imbecile? Everyone past their first decade in modern world knows how bacteria and virus spread. That he never thinks about danger he can present to population by getting his wife and himself into maternity wards shows that he is either imbecile or just does not, as pointed out by others, think seriously.

There's two problems with that:

One: Packer does not know what arrangements have been made on the Island for the safety and health of pregnant women, or what maternity setup they have. He left months ago, and had neither the time, the motivation, nor the authority to be poking around the hospital before he left. He comes to the island, in secret because he doesn't want to die. Nothing wrong with that so far. What's his first action? To go to the hospital, where they have been informed of his arrival. After he enters the hospital, what does he do? He tells the nurse on duty that his wife is pregnant and asks if they have an OB/GYN. So far, still so good as far as I'm concerned.

Packer is not under an obligation to deduce from first principles that he and his Nara need to be quarantined away from the islanders more than the islanders need to be quarantined away from Nara. For several reasons, one of the bigger ones being that it probably isn't even true.

Two: As I said, the entire history of European interaction with the New World gives us reason to expect that Nara is not carrying dangerous infectious diseases. When Europeans first got to the Americas, terrible virgin-field epidemics spread out across the continent. Millions of natives were killed by airborne and waterborne pathogens. No such disease spread to Europe. As far as I know, there is no confirmed evidence of even one dangerous, easily transmitted disease anywhere in the Americas that could infect people with a modern immune system. The only one I know of is syphilis, which is an STD (hard to transmit) and which Nara couldn't easily pass to others.

Now, it is still possible that such a disease might exist, and might somehow survive in the small pool of hosts that is Nara's tribe. Since the risk exists in principle, demanding that Nara be kept under quarantine isn't as foolish as keeping the Apollo astronauts under quarantine in case they brought back deadly Moon germs. But it comes pretty close. Demanding Packer's head for the "crime" of not making such a quarantine his top priority, over and above finding an obstetrician for his pregnant wife? Now that is foolish.

Maybe where you come from people are stupid enough not to know about bacteria and viruses, but over here we know how that crap works well before we hit 20 years. He did not force his way in physically, but he DID push his agenda without letting medical professionals time to consider the situation.

What are you talking about? The only agenda he actively pushed was to get Nara to an examination room and wait for the OB/GYN. That does not involve direct contact with any of the pregnant women; it was about the minimum that was consistent with Nara's health.

You really do not think straight. Put yourself in shoes of the Council for a moment and think realistically.
Last time they saw Packer, he was rocking the boat and trying to kick down the Council. After that, they managed to blackmail him into what was supposed to be a fucking suicide.
Now they presume that all the bad things are things of the past and hugs of friendship shall be shared by all and Packer will go along with their protective custody?

Looking at it from the Council's point of view, it's the best possible option; at the very least it's worth a try.

It is no longer possible for the Council to marginalize Packer and make him look like a stupid hothead. It's too late; too many people already think he's a hero and are inclined to overlook any relatively honest mistake he might make (like not doing... whatever you would have wanted him to do with Nara on the quarantine issue). Too many people dislike the Council. Attacking Packer, either physically or in the sphere of public opinion, is all too likely to backfire horribly.

[Tiwaz]

There's two problems with that:

One: Packer does not know what arrangements have been made on the Island for the safety and health of pregnant women, or what maternity setup they have. He left months ago, and had neither the time, the motivation, nor the authority to be poking around the hospital before he left. He comes to the island, in secret because he doesn't want to die. Nothing wrong with that so far. What's his first action? To go to the hospital, where they have been informed of his arrival. After he enters the hospital, what does he do? He tells the nurse on duty that his wife is pregnant and asks if they have an OB/GYN. So far, still so good as far as I'm concerned.

True, but he has to know that OB/GYN would need suitable room to perform the examination with. Which, by nature, is one which is close to maternity ward unless examination is performed at separate facility. Even if there were such facilities, nature of Nantucket situation means that pregnant women are bound to be treated in the hospital.

Packer having left months ago is again in my view no excuse not to know that maternity issues are handled at the hospital. There were pregnancies underway when he left. Thus it is fair to assume that practices for handling the pregnancies were already set. And I find it very questionable that there would be huge shroud of secrecy around these proceedings.

Packer is not under an obligation to deduce from first principles that he and his Nara need to be quarantined away from the islanders more than the islanders need to be quarantined away from Nara. For several reasons, one of the bigger ones being that it probably isn't even true.

No he isn't. But neither is he under some right to ignore the potential threat his actions present to islands population.

Two: As I said, the entire history of European interaction with the New World gives us reason to expect that Nara is not carrying dangerous infectious diseases. When Europeans first got to the Americas, terrible virgin-field epidemics spread out across the continent. Millions of natives were killed by airborne and waterborne pathogens. No such disease spread to Europe. As far as I know, there is no confirmed evidence of even one dangerous, easily transmitted disease anywhere in the Americas that could infect people with a modern immune system. The only one I know of is syphilis, which is an STD (hard to transmit) and which Nara couldn't easily pass to others.

Now, it is still possible that such a disease might exist, and might somehow survive in the small pool of hosts that is Nara's tribe. Since the risk exists in principle, demanding that Nara be kept under quarantine isn't as foolish as keeping the Apollo astronauts under quarantine in case they brought back deadly Moon germs. But it comes pretty close. Demanding Packer's head for the "crime" of not making such a quarantine his top priority, over and above finding an obstetrician for his pregnant wife? Now that is foolish.

It is not crime, it would simply be something that can be used as example of Packer not thinking beyond his own nose. It is not criminal trait, but it is trait most people consider to be a flaw in person.

What are you talking about? The only agenda he actively pushed was to get Nara to an examination room and wait for the OB/GYN. That does not involve direct contact with any of the pregnant women; it was about the minimum that was consistent with Nara's health.

And as said, where are OB/GYN facilities going to be?

Furthermore, Packer specifically asked Kayley, pregnant female, to go talk with Nara. Now it is of course on head of Kayley if she does this, but asking such thing is on other hand fault of Packer.

]Looking at it from the Council's point of view, it's the best possible option; at the very least it's worth a try.

But point was that he would be taken into protective custody. Do you see Packer voluntarily going into protective custody for "his own protection"?
Keeping him temporarily in quarantine for fear of germs, and tossing others who have had most contact with him in along with him, is something you cannot argue with. It can be seen as excessively careful, but it is still valid concern.

It is no longer possible for the Council to marginalize Packer and make him look like a stupid hothead. It's too late; too many people already think he's a hero and are inclined to overlook any relatively honest mistake he might make (like not doing... whatever you would have wanted him to do with Nara on the quarantine issue). Too many people dislike the Council. Attacking Packer, either physically or in the sphere of public opinion, is all too likely to backfire horribly.

Many people see him as hero regardless of his mistakes. But there are also those who are going to be concerned over this issue and can be lured bit further away from Packer end of scale.

Specially there is going to be concern in the ranks of pregnant families. I do not know how many here have kids in general, but one thing in common I have noticed in pregnant couples around me is that they are VERY acutely concerned over health of their family and fetus. Specially during the most critical first months when chance of miscarriage is greatest.

I agree that Packer cannot be attacked directly or too obviously, which is why I have said repeatedly that medical quarantine would be method of buying time first and foremost. And statement of him being careless in his return would not be all out assault but more attempt to point out personality flaw in Packer.
The council can hardly go offer Packer protection from "dangerous elements of society" after what they pulled off with him. I just can't see any reasonable person just trusting people who sent him to die that much.

Packer might see need for protection, and he indeend in story has stated so much, but he is going to rely on his friends for it. Not the Council.

Best bet for the Council is indeed buy as much time as they can to collect their wits and prepare. And then dance with Packer carefully and hope he commits huge blunder which enables them to heave ton of shit on him.

But they also have to prepare for the worst case scenario where things go monumentally bad for the Council. Which would include shifting least loyal portions of the Watch to guard duty in Muskeget and Martha's Wineyard while planning on committing the loyal portions to critical locations in Nantucket.

Frontlines are not yet being drawn, but right now I see it as everyone figuring out what cards are on the table. Loyal elements, indifferent elements and potentially hostile elements are being inventoried.

[Formless]

He did not force his way in physically, but he DID push his agenda without letting medical professionals time to consider the situation.

Okay. This is just stupid. Going to a hospital seeking treatment does not an agenda make. You are grasping at straws so hard in this statement I swear the Shark could have been modeled after you. Lucky you are a newb.

PACKER had days and weeks to think what he does when he comes to Nantucket with his wife, nurses and doctors had to react to situation they had never perhaps even given previous thought in matter or hours at best.

While medical staff did commit mistake, bigger mistake is on Packer for failing to think ahead. And that is definitely something which can be used against him.

Why? Because you say so?

Lets also remember that unless any actual harm comes of this then any accusation of wrongdoing boils down to a bunch o crap. As Simon mentioned, the Colombian exchange was extremely one sided as far as germs are concerned-- most of the really nasty one's were bugs the Europeans gave to the natives. Its simple, really: most of the really nasty diseases didn't originate in the human population, they were bacteria and viruses that jumped the species barrier from domesticated animals. Since domestication puts people into much closer proximity to animals on a daily basis, the civilizations that had a lot more livestock were the one's which gave out the diseases. The natives in America (north and south) had nothing that the Europeans weren't already resistant or immune to other than syphilis. Syphilis if I remember correctly is a few thousand miles south of Nantucket, and besides Packer isn't planning to sleep around. If anything, the Beagle's return is going to be a far greater health risk.

(and BTW, Simon, near as I can tell Jared Diamond needs no salt for flavoring. Most of his observations are actually quite similar to some of the things people like to point out here-- higher technology confers vast advantages over more primitive people. For the most part, the only really original insights he had were the role geography played in granting some civilizations a head start over others technology wise)

He knows more than enough of diseases and how they work to figure out his family might be packing something dangerous to Nantucket population.

Maybe he's read Guns Germs and Steel? If anything, he should have been more worried about introducing something to the natives. Of course, modern medicine and all that meant he got lucky.

Yeah, which ones are going to attack Packer? His supporters or supporters of the Council?

Depends on what Packer does next. Right now they both could be dangerous to him.

Packer also told flat out that he was wrong. And after that was gone for ages.

And people were already getting suspicious about that.

Can't you admit that you are being stupid by pretending that Packer, if feeling that he is under threat, would want to have ANYTHING to do with the Councils "protective custody"?

Why do I smell fish? Oh, right, because we were talking about what the Council is going to do, not Packer. They already got him to play along with them once, why wouldn't they attempt to do so again? And by the way, at this point in the story I would not be surprised if Packer sincerely accepted protective custody because he clearly has a vested interest in his wife and family's safety.

You really do not think straight. Put yourself in shoes of the Council for a moment and think realistically.

Last time they saw Packer, he was rocking the boat and trying to kick down the Council. After that, they managed to blackmail him into what was supposed to be a fucking suicide.

Now they presume that all the bad things are things of the past and hugs of friendship shall be shared by all and Packer will go along with their protective custody?

No, you moron. If they could blackmail him once, they can do so again. The "protective custody" is a PR thing, but then so was your proposed "quarantine" bullshit. The thing is, he is too popular to attack openly, or they wouldn't have sent him out on a suicide mission in the first place. If they put him under "protective custody" they are accomplishing two things: 1) making sure Packer is under their control and not out plotting revenge with the chartists/"spirit of testing" assholes 2) making sure that no one can accuse them of abusing their power or otherwise admitting that his mission was a facade in the first place. "Quarantine" has the problem that it can only last so long before people will realize its a sham, and "Debriefing" similarly should only last a couple of hours at most. I am thinking like the Council right now, and this is the most pragmatic option they have. Justifying it is, as I said before, pathetically easy considering the already tense situation on the island.

Natives? ONE tribe of natives. We have knowledge that natives of North America were never unified group. They might lose touch with one of the tribes which does not mean they lose touch with the rest.

You aren't thinking paranoid enough for a councilman. One tribe may be all it takes to ruin them. If they have to fight one tribe, the others may follow suit and assume the White Men are hostile. Good luck getting any women if that happens.

Furthermore, Packer is not going to be executed straight away or anything as stupid as that. He would be most likely put into medical quarantine, something nobody can fault the Council for establishing.

When it has been a month and Packer is still under quarantine, no one is going to be suspicious of that?

While handily give them ability to restrict whom and when will see Packer and eavesdrop on the discussion. After all, purpose of quarantine is not to let just anyone wander into the room, so discussions would not take place at intimate range where whispering is an option.

And you are ignoring that its too late to quarantine these people because the rest of the island has already been exposed by them. Further, if suddenly a dozen dissidents get put under quarantine, you might as well have had a guy with a loudspeaker in the middle of town declare war. Its just too obvious.

They can, and will, make it clear how careless Packer was when he pulled his surprise entry to hospital and maternity wing. Because everyone with head on their shoulders should and would think of the danger of potentially introducing dangerous diseases to pregnant female population. This reduces to some extent his credibility and helps establish him as hothead who never thinks about consequences of his actions beyond his own nose.

Every dumbshit who doesn't know squat about history. Or medicine. Or ethics. THINK, MORON. USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN. Alternatively, lurk more. You have no idea what kind of people inhabit this place. This would not fly with these people.

But if nothing else helps, the Council would hardly shed much tears if Packer had to be dealt with in final way. At that point danger of rebellion would be imminent anyway and the Council could not trust that if they lost they would come out with their heads attached to their shoulders.

So why not go for broke? Specially if you can go for pre-emptive strike and try to deal rebellion serious blow before actual fighting begins.

If they lose, they are fucked either way. If they win, they are in serious trouble with loss of population, most likely ruined relations to one native tribe and so forth, but can try to sort out their way and remain on top. But it beats the option "end up sent to Muskeget for next couple of years or with your head on the pike".

Before they get to that point, there are still many stages to go through unless someone does something monumentally stupid. But that is scenario to which the Council has to prepare for.

I'm trying to tell you this is precisely the situation they are going to try to avoid. Again, like someone already said, politicians have nothing to gain by acting suicidally. Besides, does it really have to be pointed out that there are still people on the council who support Packer? You overestimate how much they want him dead. A lot of those people are very hesitant to use the death penalty on principal, yet you seem to think that they would sacrifice their ethics at the drop of a hat just because a few of them have acted like politicos so far. These aren't just generic dumb politicians/aristocrats, you know.

Because of which they cannot go down the "protective custody" route. Nobody would buy that shit and Packer would never offer himself into custody of the Council.

Handing him actually loyal armed bodyguard from the Watch would be equally idiotic. If things go south, Packer would have ready core of people with guns and training. Would take an idiot or person with suicidal tendencies to think that it is a good idea, unless you have some guarantee that Packer would or could not use this resource against the Council.

Based on.. what exactly? Your say so?

[Formless]

I had another thought-- Quarantine requires the hospital staff's compliance as well as Packer's. So far they have made no indication of being anything but neutral, and may refuse to be used in such an underhanded manner that would quite likely disrupt their ability to do their job. Being that they are the most essential skilled labor on the island, I can only imagine the Council's reaction when the doctors tell them to take a long walk off one of the harbors shorter piers.

[Tiwaz]

Okay. This is just stupid. Going to a hospital seeking treatment does not an agenda make. You are grasping at straws so hard in this statement I swear the Shark could have been modeled after you. Lucky you are a newb.

You should pay more attention to understanding what you read and less trying to imitate people who are smart enough to throw around rude comments you try to present.

Going to hospital does not agenda make. Who gives a damn? It is politics. In politics, agenda less relevant is than how it presented is.

Why? Because you say so?

Because anyone with half a brain will be concerned over potential pathogen introduction from completely unknown area.

Lets also remember that unless any actual harm comes of this then any accusation of wrongdoing boils down to a bunch o crap. As Simon mentioned, the Colombian exchange was extremely one sided as far as germs are concerned-- most of the really nasty one's were bugs the Europeans gave to the natives. Its simple, really: most of the really nasty diseases didn't originate in the human population, they were bacteria and viruses that jumped the species barrier from domesticated animals. Since domestication puts people into much closer proximity to animals on a daily basis, the civilizations that had a lot more livestock were the one's which gave out the diseases. The natives in America (north and south) had nothing that the Europeans weren't already resistant or immune to other than syphilis. Syphilis if I remember correctly is a few thousand miles south of Nantucket, and besides Packer isn't planning to sleep around. If anything, the Beagle's return is going to be a far greater health risk.

And of course this must be true in this case as well because?

You are assuming that there must be nothing dangerous on the mainland as well. You cannot say for certain that there is nothing dangerous on mainland.

There is no absolute guarantee for population of Nantucket to presume that everything in the world is just the way the historians have discovered. This far yes, but there is no absolute guarantee, thus precaution is absolutely necessary.

Since whole concept of being transplanted few millenia to past throws away huge bundle of science you cannot presume that world where Nantucket was placed is exact replication of our timeline or exact replica of conditions in that timeline.

Maybe he's read Guns Germs and Steel? If anything, he should have been more worried about introducing something to the natives. Of course, modern medicine and all that meant he got lucky.

You again start with assumption that this world is exactly like our Earth pre-Columbian Earth. There is no guarantee that it actually is. It might be, but people of Nantucket have limited ways of making sure of it except try it out. And such situation would warrant being extremely careful of making assumptions like "I am more dangerous to them with my germs than they are to me".

Depends on what Packer does next. Right now they both could be dangerous to him.

Which is why he has been planning on relying friends he has made. They are least likely to be threat to him.

Why do I smell fish? Oh, right, because we were talking about what the Council is going to do, not Packer. They already got him to play along with them once, why wouldn't they attempt to do so again? And by the way, at this point in the story I would not be surprised if Packer sincerely accepted protective custody because he clearly has a vested interest in his wife and family's safety.

What are they going to blackmail him with this time? Oh yeah, maybe with his wife's safety once they have her in protective custody! Ages old tradition of holding family members as hostages to guarantee the docile behavior of someone.

No, you moron. If they could blackmail him once, they can do so again. The "protective custody" is a PR thing, but then so was your proposed "quarantine" bullshit. The thing is, he is too popular to attack openly, or they wouldn't have sent him out on a suicide mission in the first place. If they put him under "protective custody" they are accomplishing two things: 1) making sure Packer is under their control and not out plotting revenge with the chartists/"spirit of testing" assholes 2) making sure that no one can accuse them of abusing their power or otherwise admitting that his mission was a facade in the first place. "Quarantine" has the problem that it can only last so long before people will realize its a sham, and "Debriefing" similarly should only last a couple of hours at most. I am thinking like the Council right now, and this is the most pragmatic option they have. Justifying it is, as I said before, pathetically easy considering the already tense situation on the island.

Blackmail him with WHAT? They can't just keep beating the same horse, saying how Packers friends will suffer. He has other issues in his mind now, and clearly the Council was unable to do a damn thing to his friends despite them being far more obnoxious than Packer was. That blackmail material has lost it's usefulness.

Best way to blackmail him would be to have his wife in "protective custody" but that would require Packer submitting to it voluntarily. No fucking way he would be that stupid. And forcing him into one would just blow the whole situation sooner rather than later.

Quarantine for medical reasons is valid case, it would be temporary method only lasting until doctors manage to get reasonable certainty that Packer and Nara are not huge health hazard. But it is still far superior to attempting to force him into "custody" which stinks to high heavens like imprisonment.

You have to have few screws loose if you think it is pragmatic. For the council it might be pragmatic, but they are not apparently as nuts as you that they would assume Packer would ever voluntarily go with it. And as said, without his agreement they can't forcefully detain him.

You aren't thinking paranoid enough for a councilman. One tribe may be all it takes to ruin them. If they have to fight one tribe, the others may follow suit and assume the White Men are hostile. Good luck getting any women if that happens.

Because of course that is how it always happens... Have you read history? Tribes who fight with one another are eager to actually make friends with those who are enemies of their enemies.

It has been standard part of civilization since times ages gone. Caesar went into Gaul with his legions, but he also obtained aid from variety of native tribes who wanted to improve their position by having Roman support for defeating their competitors.

History of USA does see various native American tribes allying with various European powers in order to obtain guns which they could use both against enemies of their ally and rival tribes.

Fall of Aztec empire came when the Spaniards arrived, but first contact with the natives was not peaceful. In fact, Cortez was attacked and defeated the attackers obtaining 20 young women from it. Including one who became his mistress.

From there onward, there was no unification against Cortez, rather opposite but I am sure anyone who has bothered to read history knows this already.

So risk is rather small.

When it has been a month and Packer is still under quarantine, no one is going to be suspicious of that?

Who said it would be a month?

Week, few days... That would be easily achieved and would give the Council time to prepare and plan.

And you are ignoring that its too late to quarantine these people because the rest of the island has already been exposed by them. Further, if suddenly a dozen dissidents get put under quarantine, you might as well have had a guy with a loudspeaker in the middle of town declare war. Its just too obvious.

You put Packer, Nara, doctor/nurse and who came to prolonged contact with them into quarantine. Trying to use it as some kind of dissident hunt would be pointless. Same way Miles and Kevin would be if they arrive there before quarantine is dismantled.

Every dumbshit who doesn't know squat about history. Or medicine. Or ethics. THINK, MORON. USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN. Alternatively, lurk more. You have no idea what kind of people inhabit this place. This would not fly with these people.

Yeah, because everyone here knows how they would act if taken away from their comfortable little life and thrust into scenario like Nantucket here. Idiot.

I'm trying to tell you this is precisely the situation they are going to try to avoid. Again, like someone already said, politicians have nothing to gain by acting suicidally. Besides, does it really have to be pointed out that there are still people on the council who support Packer? You overestimate how much they want him dead. A lot of those people are very hesitant to use the death penalty on principal, yet you seem to think that they would sacrifice their ethics at the drop of a hat just because a few of them have acted like politicos so far. These aren't just generic dumb politicians/aristocrats, you know.

And you idiot have not figured out that wanting to avoid situation does not mean you do not plan and prepare for it.

In case you have not figured it out, idiot, read what Stuart had to say in his story about war with Heaven.

USA has fucking plans to invade Vatican and Canada. Is it because they want this to take place or because they do not want to have it take place without having planned for it in advance?

Based on.. what exactly? Your say so?

Oh, I don't know... Common sense? The stuff you are seriously lacking!

[Shermpotter]

Tiwaz, I don't have a dog in this fight, just someone who has lurked here for years and occasionally says a few things. I really like this story. It is one of the few I have actually commented on. Listen to me when I say this. Let it go. The author has already spoken that quarantine was dropped for dramatic license. Besides, as has been pointed out by others, the risk was minimal. Let the authors continue to develop this story.

Speaking of the risks, I know this board has a lot of intelligent people, but how much of the actions towards sending the Eagle to Spain and the interactions on the mainland and with any natives is just familiarity breeding contempt? It was safe uptime so we might just take it for granted it is safe now. Stuff happens, y'know?

Looking forward to more!

[Tiwaz]

I quite enjoy the story and am in no way trying to have it stopped.

Point in discussion here is not in trying to stop the story, quite the opposite in my view, discuss how the situation is developing in our interpretation. Perhaps some issues can even give ideas to authors.

Fact that quarantine is not written in should not mean that this issue should not in come out in the story somehow. My point is that it is only easily justifiable tool for the Council to use in attempt to confine Packer even for limited time to permit the Council to figure out what they do to him and how.

This does not mean that the Council should have their way of course, Packer can fight against the argument in the story but it is option which WOULD most certainly come out in the Council because it can be presented as valid concern.

Quarantine tales are bad story, yes. Does this mean that nobody in Nantucket should come up with concern of what Packer is bringing with him and nobody even thinks of quarantine? In my opinion that would be just as bad writing.

One of the biggest mistakes in writing in my humble opinion is that when something does not make good story, but is also logical result of something that is done in the tale... You just ignore it. Nobody asks the inconvenient questions and situation is averted by writer fiat.

If something like quarantine is logical to that situation, but it does not make good story, you can try to work the tale around it. Have demand for it made and receive refusal. It can even build up tension in the story. Instead of just having it so that nobody notices to ask what else Packer might be bringing from mainland besides cool new wardrobe and wife.