Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by KrauserKrauser »

How will he do it, you ask?
(CNN) -- Say you were to give Bill Gates a really great present -- like the ability to cure crippling diseases or to pick all U.S. presidents for the next 50 years.

Gates would like those gifts, sure.

But you wouldn't have granted his one, true wish.

The Microsoft-founder-turned-philanthropist said at a recent speech in California that, more than new vaccines for AIDS or malaria or presidential selection power, what he really wants is clean energy at half its current cost.

To do that, he said, we'll need new technology.

Gates -- a father of the personal computer and quite the tech powerhouse -- said one of the brightest hopes for clean, cheap power is a new form of nuclear power plant that reuses waste uranium from existing nuclear reactors.

It's kind of like radioactive recycling, and, on its face, can sound like a miracle.

Gates actually described energy innovation in those terms: To prevent famine, poverty and the hardship that will come with global climate change we need "energy miracles," he said at the TED Conference in Long Beach.

Some nuclear scientists and critics say the nuclear technology Gates highlighted is misguided, naive and expensive.

Others, like Craig Smith, a nuclear engineer at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, said Gates is helping put the world on the verge of a "nuclear Renaissance" that could provide cheap power for everyone in the world -- forever.

"There's a new enthusiasm not only in the United States but, I think, worldwide for the use of nuclear energy," Smith said.

Smith's argument is bolstered by the fact that President Obama on Tuesday announced $8.3 billion in loan guarantees for a new nuclear power plant.

The proposed project, to be located in Burke County, Georgia, would be the first nuclear power plant built in the United States in three decades.

How it works

Most nuclear power plants today use radioactive elements like uranium to create nuclear fission and then produce electricity.

One problem: That reaction leaves behind uranium waste. To make matters worse, the United States hasn't identified a safe place to store the waste from the country's 104 nuclear reactors in the long term.

That's where the technology promoted by Gates comes in.

Gates has invested tens of millions of dollars in a Bellevue, Washington, company called TerraPower, according to TerraPower CEO John Gilleland.

TerraPower is working to create nuclear reactors that generate hyper-fast nuclear reactions able to eat away at the dangerous nuclear waste.

This has a number of potential benefits, Gilleland said. Among them:

• The Uranium isotope that's food for the new nuclear reactors doesn't have to be enriched, which means it's less likely to be used in atomic weapons.

• The fission reaction in the new process burns through the nuclear waste slowly, which makes the process safer. One supply of spent uranium could burn for 60 years.

• The process creates a large amount of energy from relatively small amounts of uranium, which is important as global supplies run short.

• The process generates uranium that can be burned again to create "effectively an infinite fuel supply."

Gilleland said it's not a matter of if the technology works.

"It's going to work -- for sure," he said. "The question will be precisely how well and how economically. But right now there are lots of people in the world who think it could begin to see common application in the 2020s."

'Pie-in-the-sky'

Others scoff at the idea.

Gates is looking for a "silver bullet" technology to fix the world's climate problems, but no such technology exists, said Thomas B. Cochran, a nuclear physicist and senior scientist at the Natural Resources Defense Council, an environmental advocacy group that opposes new nuclear power plants.

"The idea that Gates is going to throw some money at a couple of guys that think they've got a new idea and this is gonna blossom into something that really works is a pretty low probability," he said.

Cochran compared Gates' call for investment in nuclear technology that would reuse uranium to Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme. It's a scam, he said.

Researchers have been working on similar, utopian ideas for more than 60 years, he said, and with no tangible result.

Action needs to be taken now to blunt the effects of climate change, he said; and new nuclear power technologies will take too long to develop and will be too expensive.
"If you're trying to address climate change mitigation, this is not the way to go in any case because it's too far into the future," he said.

"We need the solutions now. The focus on research and development ought to be on improvements in near-term applications, not these pie-in-the-sky reactor concepts that won't be deployed for decades."

Michael Mariotte, executive director of the Nuclear Information and Resource Service, an environmental and public-safety group, said the timeline is too slow.

The technology could be ready for testing in 20 years and ready for commercial use 20 years after that, Gates said in California.

"Our belief is that we need to make near-term carbon emissions reductions -- and in that sense, this doesn't help," Mariotte said.

"It diverts resources away from technologies that do work."

Optimism

Others applaud Gates, one of the richest men in the world, for taking on a big problem like climate change with gusto and optimism.

"Look, I think this is the backing of a creative and innovative reactor concept," said Smith, the nuclear engineer at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

"That is a very good thing -- to allow people to stretch their minds and come up with new concepts."

It's unclear where the best clean-energy technology solutions will come from, Smith said, but many varieties of next-generation nuclear tech are under development, and the U.S. government has invested in several.

Ted Quinn, a former president of the American Nuclear Society and a consultant for the nuclear industry, said it's important for the United States to find a valuable use for nuclear waste.

"This is like an ultimate design that can burn a different type of fuel than we burn today. This burns the part of the fuel that we can't burn," he said of the Gates-backed project. "It helps the fuel cycle issues."

In his remarks in California, Gates said there will be no easy fix for climate change.

He encouraged optimism, along with heavier investment in solar, wind, battery and nuclear technologies.

That's the only way he will get his biggest wish, he said. "We have to drive full speed and get a miracle in a pretty tight timeline."
So Bill's plan to solve the energy crisis is..... nuclear reprocessing?

Maybe instead he should invent a time machine and smack Jimmy Carter with a clue by four and get back the 20+ years we lost because of his stupidity.

Is there something I am missing? Is this something more than reprocessing previously spent fuel?
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by Broomstick »

A better marketing plan for it, perhaps?

Because that's the real roadblock to developing better nuclear technology - it has a bad rap. Let's face it, Chernobyl didn't help the industry one bit. Most folks don't know enough to understand why another such accident is unlikely, why other designs are safer, and so forth. Something needs to be done change the technology from something feared to something desirable.

So, OK, maybe it's just repackaged reprocessing. So what? If Gates can make it commercially viable AND appealing to the general public that will be a good thing, won't it?
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by KrauserKrauser »

I'm all for it, don't mistake my questioning for opposition.

I just thought there would have been more to it. Reprocessing repackaged is good but the ability to even build MORE nuclear plants would be nice.

In all honesty, he's 100% correct and I hope this is followed on in Congress, though I don't see Pelosi getting in bed with the Nuclear industry in my lifetime. Crazier things have happened I guess.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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The technology could be ready for testing in 20 years and ready for commercial use 20 years after that, Gates said in California.

"Our belief is that we need to make near-term carbon emissions reductions -- and in that sense, this doesn't help," Mariotte said.

"It diverts resources away from technologies that do work."
And so where does that kind of thinking leave us 40 years down the line? In exactly the same place we are now. That's a brilliant idea.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by KrauserKrauser »

That's the thing, reading through the article it sounds like nuclear reprocessing which is an established technology throughout the world and shouldn't need 20+ years of research and testing to be put into place.

I know the US is unique in it's approach to a bunch of issues but as far as I know the same laws of physics and chemistry apply here as in the other countries that are already using reprocessing of fuel.

I reiterate, is there something I am missing?
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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I thought we had similar devices to these with some of the reactor types.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by Eleas »

Until the turn of last milennium, Microsoft managed to sell horrible software and still dominate the market (pick any product up to Windows NT, really). There were no shortage of nice alternatives, but that didn't matter. What was needed was business savvy, marketing, and a deft but Invisible hand. And by now, it's pretty clear that Bill Gates has demonstrated all three.

I don't care how clumsy the attempt looks now - all I know for certain that even if he's hawking dried turds at a fast-food joint, it's because Bill Gates is reasonably sure he's found a way to sell it to everyone for profit. That's what Gates does. And even "reasonably sure" is better than what we have now, which is a lot of people fighting over who gets to stick their head in the same patch of sand.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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Hey, if he can repackage and market nuclear waste reprocessing into something that the general public will accept, by all means Bill, go ahead!
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by Davis 51 »

Hawkwings wrote:Hey, if he can repackage and market nuclear waste reprocessing into something that the general public will accept, by all means Bill, go ahead!
He already did that. Remember Vista?

All kidding aside, this is a great idea. If he can pull it off, then maybe we can pull our collective heads out of our ass as a country with regards to nuclear power.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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This is not Carter era death reprocessing in any way. This is a new type of traveling wave reactor, a form of fast neutron reactor, which would run primarily on depleted uranium, all the U-238 uranium leftover when you enrich U-235 fuel levels to make normal reactor fuels. It would also be able to run on unenriched fuel. It would not run on high level spent nuclear fuel waste we used to break down chemically to reprocess.

The idea of a DU powered reactor is old, but before now no one has ever done serious engineering work to make it work in practice. Once it does work, we have a super breeder which can turn the US 750,000 ton DU stockpile into energy. That’s a huge FREE source of energy that right now and only use to shoot at people or in tank armor.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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If Bill Gates' name and marketing savvy can sell the idea of nuclear power to people, I'm all for it. We can't just stick our heads in the sand and scream "NIMBY!" every time the word "Nuclear" comes up.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by KrauserKrauser »

Thanks Sea Skimmer, I knew there had to be something more to this than "Let's start reprocessing!".

The timelines make sense given that a test site would need to be constructed before it could be marketed in any way.

Now if only we could get gag orders on idiots like Keith Olberman and his "curies of radiation scares the crap out of me" mind set, we might actually get some movement on this issue.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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Bill Gates bought DOS from a programmer in Seattle and sold the POS to IBM because Gary Kildall at DEC was out flying his aeroplane and couldn't be bothered to meet with IBM and sell them the superior CP/M.

He "borrowed" the GUI and mouse form Xerox' Palo Alto Research Center (as did Steven Jobs) to create, after much effort, Windows.

He copied VisiCalc (to be fair, so did others) to create Excel.

He copied Palo Alto Research Center's Bravo to create MS Word.

He copied FileMaker to create MS Access.

etc.

etc.

etc.

Now he's re-positioning breeder reactor technology (that in its current configurations uses toxic, 24,000 year half life Plutonium-239 as the reactant and highly poisonous liquid sodium as a coolant) as a "clean energy" source? Coincidentally, breeder reactors are how we get fissile material and plutonium for our nuclear arsenal IIRC. If Gates pulls off this one, it will be a marketing triumph to dwarf any (hell ALL) Windows release. I can see the marketing slogans now: "Clean Energy, and Peace through Superior Firepower!"

The 40-year timeframe, especially attached to a sponsored corporation that presumably has to show results and make a profit at some point, smacks of pie-in-the-sky, Apple-like enthusiasm more than it does realistic expectations. Mr. Gates would do better, for more people, if he used his foundation's money to push for the reintroduction of DDT instead of ineffective mosquito nets in Africa to eradicate malaria.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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KrauserKrauser wrote:Now if only we could get gag orders on idiots like Keith Olberman and his "curies of radiation scares the crap out of me" mind set, we might actually get some movement on this issue.
I don't know if you're being facetious or not. I suspect that you are. Nevertheless, the way to win the PR battle for nuclear energy isn't getting someone like Olberman to shut up, it's to convince him to get onboard the bandwagon.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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One thing about the article in the OP really worries me.
• The process generates uranium that can be burned again to create "effectively an infinite fuel supply."
I am not a physicist, but I do recall the first law of thermodyanmics; Energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. It can only be converted, and even then at a loss owing to imperfect techniques from such sources as waste heat.

Presumably, the process in use would be intended to generate electrical energy by extracting it from the spent uranium from other reactors, by means of the usual rotary-magnetodynamic turbine method, (roughly, as I am not a Nuke-E) by putting this stuff somewhere it can get hot as hellfire, heating up coolant which (ultimately, possibly through secondary and even tertiary coolant loops) drives a turbine which generates electrical energy by rotating ferrous metals through a coil of other metals.

There is no free energy. It has to come from where - and while you might be able to aquire it in a form that is otherwise 'free' in that it will be emitted anyway and you can either choose to harness it or not (solar power, wind, tidal motions, geothermics,) this doesn't seem to be the case here. How can you burn the same fuel twice?

I probably don't understand the complicated physics behind this, but I do understand that there's no getting around thermodynamics. If this stuff is being used to generate energy, then it has that energy stored inside itself in some form. If it's being used to generate, then that energy is being converted. Once it's been converted, that energy has been released from the fuel; dissipated into heat in the cooling liquids, and from there radiated as further waste heat through the insulation of the power station (ultimately) into the atmosphere, and dissipated in the form of physcally rotating the turbine(s) and from there, ultimately dissipated into the national power grid.

How's it getting back into the fuel for another run? Or rather, how is the fuel getting pumped back up for another run, and where is the energy to do that coming from?


I mean, I'm all for more nuclear power stations, especially those that can put the otherwise-useless-but-hazardous wastes from prior nuclear fuel use to work again. But when I hear the Dark Lord of Microsoft making this kind of claim, the first thing that jumped out at me was "where's the catch."

That said, if Bill Gates is going to put his money where his mouth is and actually do something towards promoting viable nuclear energy, I'm glad. If it takes rebranding and repackaging to shut the NIMBYs up, so be it, get out the marketing crew.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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I think there are several so called generation 4 reactor designs that can run on spent fuel from light water reactors, so fundamentally this is nothing new, just another type of breeder reactor.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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Sky Captain wrote:I think there are several so called generation 4 reactor designs that can run on spent fuel from light water reactors, so fundamentally this is nothing new, just another type of breeder reactor.
I'm still fuzzy - from the way the OP's article wrote, it gave the impression that it was saying that kind of reactor was fundamentally a free energy generator - set it up and maintain it, and you never ever have to refuel it or deal with the stuff inside, since it regrows as quickly as it burns off.

That's got me confused. It seems to be on it's face a bald lie, or else completely in violation of the first law of thermodynamics.

It's something else entirely if it can take the spent fuel from our older reactors and just use those to keep refueling it. In that sense you'd be burning the same fuel twice, but extracting different energy each time.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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ShadowDragon8685 wrote: I'm still fuzzy - from the way the OP's article wrote, it gave the impression that it was saying that kind of reactor was fundamentally a free energy generator - set it up and maintain it, and you never ever have to refuel it or deal with the stuff inside, since it regrows as quickly as it burns off.
That was obviously the reporter not having any idea how idiotic this sentence sounds. Breeder reactors are simply means of extracting more energy from nuclear bonds that's left there after the fuel is burnt once, or using fuel that was thought as useless before.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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PeZook wrote:That was obviously the reporter not having any idea how idiotic this sentence sounds. Breeder reactors are simply means of extracting more energy from nuclear bonds that's left there after the fuel is burnt once, or using fuel that was thought as useless before.
I concur, it was either intentionally dumbed down to the reporter because the latter did not have a clue on matters technical, or the journo assumed that the reading public is daft (not entirely incorrect...) and put it up in crayons and big letters. All said and done, I think the Borg Gates is smart enough to know that in this universe one does not violate the laws of thermodynamics...

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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

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On the other hand "LIMITLESS ENERGY" is something that can excite the average nuclear skeptic. You will never win an argument convincing nuclear power is safe to someone who already made up their minds. They will just go Chernobyl, Hiroshima, radiation bla bla bla. To them one single stray alpha particle is unacceptable...

Why not then just re-brand nuclear energy as some proverbial source of "LIMITLESS ENERGY" ? Yeah it's scientifically grossly incorrect but if the people you are trying to convince were scientific minded to begin with they would not be so adamant. Marketing can work wonders. It has done everything from convincing every a crappy mobile phone is the best/first smartphone ever to convince Americans to invade Iraq. Strangely for all the money involved in the nuclear sector they do very little public outreach to change opinions. I wonder what a trendy version of nuclear power will look like on the media....
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by Tanasinn »

I agree - nuclear power needs a public eye lobby, and they need it to be one that both softens the view on their product while dunking the opponents in shit. I'm sure there's plenty of West Virginian coal miners who would be glad to attest to the evils of big coal, for example.
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

It seems to me it's the same old problem with politics: people listen to a storyteller before they listen to a scientist.

The China Syndrome came out, and everyone was all "nnnnnnh," hand-wavering about the issue, then OMG THREE MILE ISLAND! And then Chernobyl literally blew the roof off, and now everyone is terrified that anything with the word "nuclear" in it will make their faces melt off.


The soloution that then occurs to me is that the scientists must become storytellers - or else hire some storyteller.

Things like...

Putting out television adverts that call bullshit on that 'clean coal' stuff. Use footage over and over showing smoke-belching coal plants and the areas surrounding it. Get in-your-face autopsy pictures of people who've died from blacklung. If people will tolerate it on CSI, they won't freak out because it's on a commercial. Use a tagline like "clean coal is like a clean sewer. The only clean sewer is the one that hasn't been used."

Challenge the 'clean gas' myth and the myth that oil is cleaner than coal. Natural gas and oil are still hydrocarbon combustion processes that generate power the same, tired old way. I'm not familar enough with the in-depth explaination of how bad they are, but I'm sure people more familar with the topic (and with more time to research it) can likewise come up with horror stories about the polloution put out by 'clean gas and oil'.

Challenge the perceptions that wind turbines and solar power will solve our energy problems: Calculate however many wind turbines would be required to, say, power New York City, then show a CGI'd panning of the coast off New York City filled with a literal ocean of wind turbines - the sheer number of them should make it clearly obvious how preposterous it is, but just for added effect be sure to have an image of a vessel sailing straight towards it.

For solar, show a house out on a wind-swept, dusty plain with a single, aged incandescent bulb in the porch socket - the day should be completely clouded-over, and the light should dim and fade as the camera pans in on it. Then the bulb simply goes off, and the screen dims to blackness.

Basically, the idea is to shamelessly propagandize. People don't care if they're being propagandaized to, their lizard brains eat up the 'story' regardless. Then the second wave should be a series of simple diagrams about how any given power plant works - coal, oil, gas. Make it really hugely obvious that the smoke coming out of the stacks at an oil, gas, and coal plant is black and disgusting, and emphasize just how much the sucker eats up. Then use the same kind of diagram - art style especially - but show a nuke plant - it gets fueled once, and use bright green colors to indicate which loops are radioactive - the primary coolant - and make it equally obvious that the bright green stuff never gets released. Make it clear that, when the plant is re-fueled, the old stuff is firmly sealed up in casks and not leaking radiation, and then it gets shipped to somewhere suspiciously similar to Yucca Mountain, sealed away what appears to be miles and miles underground.

Heck, go all-out with it: make a movie called Chernobyl and make it all about the Chernobyl disaster - and make it very, very clear that the only reason that incident happened was because safeties were disabled and unauthorized tests were being conducted.... Well, I'm not so sure that would be a good idea. To me it seems that way, since I'm smart enough to know that, even with the relatively unsafe Soviet reactor, Chernobyl never would have popped without the idiotic 'tests' being conducted. Would John Q. Lizardbrain come away with that understanding, or would he come away with "Scientists are idiots?"

Maybe that last one's not such a good idea. But the point remains - propagandize the hell out of it. Slanderize the holy hell out of coal, gas and oil by making it clear that they will kill you, deride and belittle wind-turbine and solar as insufficient, inefficient, and dependant upon vagaries of weather.




As an aside, I do wonder: is it possible to use solar-reflected heating of gigantic boilers to drive turbines to extract significantly useful amounts of electricity? It would be a way of harnessing solar power without the toxic rare earth elements in solar panel power gatherers. Obviously it would really only work somewhere like nevada, and still suffers the usual problems of solar power plants in that it's dependant upon the sun, only works at daytime, and the reflective surfaces would need to be cleaned frequently, but I know you can heat water to boiling with reflective surfaces aiming lots and lots of sunlight at something - heck, you can set ships on fire with enough mirrors, why not superheat water in a boiler?
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Dude...

Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
I am an artist, metaphorical mind-fucks are my medium.
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Sarevok
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by Sarevok »

I thinking convincing people that nuclear power is safe is a losing battle. Their mind has been set and it is difficult to undo a negative impression once made. So it would be better to just drop the issue and start anew focusing on benifits of nuclear power.

Perhaps nuclear energy, properly marketed, can rally people the way some people are passionate about renewable energy, global warming or some other bandwagon. If someone thinks nuclear power is cool they will apply the same stubborn mentality defending it. Once people get fixated on something they only see the positive sides and tend to ignore the negatives whether that be their country, favorite computer OS or nuclear energy.
I have to tell you something everything I wrote above is a lie.
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ShadowDragon8685
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Sarevok wrote:I thinking convincing people that nuclear power is safe is a losing battle. Their mind has been set and it is difficult to undo a negative impression once made. So it would be better to just drop the issue and start anew focusing on benifits of nuclear power.

Perhaps nuclear energy, properly marketed, can rally people the way some people are passionate about renewable energy, global warming or some other bandwagon. If someone thinks nuclear power is cool they will apply the same stubborn mentality defending it. Once people get fixated on something they only see the positive sides and tend to ignore the negatives whether that be their country, favorite computer OS or nuclear energy.
You're probably right - nobody cares about the untold millions or even billions of hours of safe, productive nuclear power generation have happened, they just think of Chernobyl and set their minds.

But minds can be unset if you can sell them a story and sell it well enough. And hey, everybody likes a good post-apoc flick, right? Set one in 2066 or something, peak oil came, went, most of civilization collapsed, people are fighting wars over trucks of oil, and the only guys living well are the guys who were smart enough to cluster around the old nuke.

Or... Something. I dunno. The point I'm trying to make is that if you can't convince people that nukes are safe, then you need to convince them that the alternatives are worse.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Dude...

Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
I am an artist, metaphorical mind-fucks are my medium.
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ray245
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Re: Bill Gates wants to solve America's Energy Crisis

Post by ray245 »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote: You're probably right - nobody cares about the untold millions or even billions of hours of safe, productive nuclear power generation have happened, they just think of Chernobyl and set their minds.
Yeah, but those people don't care about that. They think that despite the fact that Nuclear plants have numerous hours of safe and efficient operation, the risk of something like Chernobyl happening again is too big of a risk.

I suspect that unless the government started teaching the importance of adopting nuclear energy in Primary school, such a mindset will not be removed.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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