SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Coyote]

Anothet thing to bear in mind: Chain of Command or Government, as it may apply. I propoe-- and it is obvious as well-- that Lord Wong be "Lord Wong" in truth as well as in title. We'll clearly have a military chain of command, with our officers such as Jegs2 near the top and he NCOs (Rob and myself, for example) fulfilling our roles. The military personnel will have an easy time figuring out their pecking order.

Others will fall into their callings-- we'd clearly have a R&D section, where the engineers and physists will be developing new inventions or improvements on local tech... part of this will be the biomedics section, working on health and welfare.

Agriculture will be another section, probably small since few of us seem to be farmers, but Agro will also have a mission to help Biomedics develop things such as ricin or phosgene, etc.

I propose a General Staff, composed primarily of the officers of military rank and those who are well-versed in such areas whos judgement is sound. I'd advocate the Duchess for a seat on the General Staff. These people will help coordinate overall strategies, goals, and ways to implement them as well as social goals to meet with allies. Lord Wong of course will be the presiding member of this staff as well. A couple good writers, willing to start to work, will act as scribe-assistants to the GS, keeping minutes of meetings and translating our books of knowledge into locla tongue so that the learning is not lost after we leave or die.

Mechanical and Maintenance will be just that, from keeping the electricity and plumbing going to maintaining motor pool vehicles, running the machine shop, etc. A sub-section would be Personnel Services, seeing to cleaning, laundry, and cooking staff.

Those whose knowledge is too general or broad-based to have a seat on any one of these boards/labs would pretty much be general population, and assist with chores and military training.

The Gen Staff will essentially be the "government" of the compound as this is basically a quasi-military operation, and base operations must be tailored to suit this end. After the conflict ends we can choose to melt into the ME populace, remain as a Duchy of our own and select a government, or return to Earth as we see fit. I suspect a combination of all of the above will be seen...

[Cpt_Frank]

I meant to say that everyone should have two knives, but that officers, those capable of riding, and perhaps NCOs, should have the option of a sabre.

Bringing along that flintlock could well be worth one less M-14, depending on if pertinent materials in the library included such plans. Probably not, so a model would be very good. We'll be dealing with a lot of illiterate but intelligent craftsmen who could work much better off an example, too.

I guess I'll also bring my M-1866 Chassepot along together with it's awesome bayonet. (good thing single shot guns can be acquired without license here in Germany )

There's nothing wrong with 5.56. It is actually more lethal than 7.62, we can carry more ammunition for it, and we can fire the weapons easier.

That'd also free the 7.62 for the light machine guns.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I meant to say that everyone should have two knives, but that officers, those capable of riding, and perhaps NCOs, should have the option of a sabre.

Bringing along that flintlock could well be worth one less M-14, depending on if pertinent materials in the library included such plans. Probably not, so a model would be very good. We'll be dealing with a lot of illiterate but intelligent craftsmen who could work much better off an example, too.

I guess I'll also bring my M-1866 Chassepot along together with it's awesome bayonet. (good thing single shot guns can be acquired without license here in Germany )

There's nothing wrong with 5.56. It is actually more lethal than 7.62, we can carry more ammunition for it, and we can fire the weapons easier.

That'd also free the 7.62 for the light machine guns.

Are we really going to be able to bring along any light machine guns? It's basically what we pack - IE, two guns, two knives per person, plus the 50cals and 40mms fixed to the base, if we can find a way to rip those out and get portable mounts for them. I think the upper limit would be the SAWs. (Or M-60s if you want to argue over what's better. I say use the 5.56mm for the support weapons, go M-14s for infantry rifles - We could debate this until we're blue in the face, though).

Hrmm. Well, if you bring those two, that will cover flintlock and perhaps even breachloader manufacture, though you'll need an assault rifle from one of the extras someone else packs along (I'm assuming that in weight terms nobody can handle more than two guns and two knives, if you count magazines and consider that, thinking of duration, we will need to pack in other things as well in the limited weight a person can carry even over the short distance of "standing up, teleporting, taking it off" due to space concerns).

Patrick, could we use the Chassepot as a model for a production run of breachloaders? I'm near-salivating over the thought; it was an excellent gun, yet seems to be sufficiently simple that we could in fact do it. I'd say yes, at least, but I may be biased - I like them.

Between the Chassepot and that flintlock all we'd need are two appropriate pistols, which maybe we could work out without examples if we have plans in our library, or even without them by guesstimate once we seem some guns of that era. For carbines there were carbine variants of the Chassepot and we can create those going from the rifle (especially if we have diagrams, not a great loss if we don't).

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I just don't like putting the weak hitting power of a 5.56mm battle rifle up against armour and some of the potentially big creatures we might be facing.

A modern 5.56x45mm M995 ball round can penetrate 6mm of RHA steel. We're talking pathetic medieval armor here- they might as well fight naked.

As for big creatures, they're still soft flesh- spray them till they die



The whole 7.62 versus 5.56 debate has been over since he 1960s. There's not a single first rate military anywhere in the world that uses 7.62 NATO as the standard rifle round, for good reason. There's nothing wrong with 5.56. It is actually more lethal than 7.62, we can carry more ammunition for it, and we can fire the weapons easier.

I'll wait on what Patrick says. But I want the issue settled decisively - I think the infantry should have a single type of rifle, using a single ammunition. If we don't use the M-14 I think we should seriously consider a Soviet rifle that uses the 5.56mm round, then - The reliability in poor field conditions will probably be better. Let's definitely keep away from the M-4 and its short barrel.

[Cpt_Frank]

Are we really going to be able to bring along any light machine guns?
*snip*

I thought the military people were allowed to bring them along in addition to the other guns.

Hrmm. Well, if you bring those two, that will cover flintlock and perhaps even breachloader manufacture, though you'll need an assault rifle from one of the extras someone else packs along (I'm assuming that in weight terms nobody can handle more than two guns and two knives, if you count magazines and consider that, thinking of duration, we will need to pack in other things as well in the limited weight a person can carry even over the short distance of "standing up, teleporting, taking it off" due to space concerns).

Well earlier someone said he'd bring along two 98k with scopes so I'd happily settle with that one.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I think we should minimize noncombatants. Sure, as many people as possible should have a job when not fighting, possibly even a military job, but when we're out on the field, as many people as possible should be shooting at the enemy. So, even if you were assigned to the General Staff for some particular skill in knowledge - You'd still be required to stand in the ranks with everyone else.

The Greeks expected their generals to lead in the first rank, and though obviously we will need commanders to coordinate, and a supply train, beyond the absolute minimum to organize and support the force, everyone should be producing fire from their weapons (not necessarily rifles of course). This means that your civilian or even pre-combat military position (or multiple ones thereof, even) is not necessarily important - you must be ready and willing to accept orders and stand in the ranks when it comes time to fight. It's really the only thing we can do considering our numbers.

I think this makes a clear distinction between the military and civilian operations important, and when one is operative and when the other is - Or, more properly, between "Bellum" and "Pax". We can function democratically when we're not campaigning, or when the base is not threatened, under a constitution establishing a form of Direct Democracy, with elected adminstrative officials. I don't think the lack of nobilis in actual authority will be a big deal. People like "Lord" Wong having titles, and those who have abilities of respect in the society, may still gain us similiar influence even without having clear power over the masses (in the same way that there were nobles even in democratic Athens).

In aiding the local nobility to stay in power from the threat of social upheaval caused by our innovations we can indebt ourselves to the whole of society there - Whilst the threat of our military power, and ideological strength so to speak, remains entirely present. For military affairs, of course, once war is decided on as a course of action or forced upon us, then as appropriate, the military laws and military chain of command takes over from the civilian, and remains in effect until the crisis or campaign is deemed over. In this fashion we can effectively manage a democratic government, with the needs for us to be a fighting democracy. I think this is crucial considering that we must wield together the desires and interests of many people, who will have to be disciplined into fighting in some cases, and we ought do that with the carrot as well as the stick, so to speak.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Well, each person was originally limited to a pistol and a rifle, while those with military experience could also have a "SAW or M-60". However - Why the limit? Weight limit, I suspect. You can only carry so much on your person.

But if you just show up and set it down and then store part of what you carried somewhere in the base, it's going to be on your body for just a few seconds, so really it's "how much you can stand up with", not how much you can walk with.

In that case each person can probably come with two rifles along with a fair amount of gear, even if not physically fit. In the case of the military personnel they may very well be able to stand up dangled with a bunch of stuff on.

I'm assuming both in this case and in the case of the guns on the fort that the limitations are inherently rational: IE, anything you bring will be transported, as long as you can physically lift it and it fits on your body, can be held, strapped on, etc, somewhere. Or in the case of the MGs and grenade launchers, they're only limited to the fort because of mounts impossibly heavy to make mobile; but they could perhaps be physically seperated from these mounts, and new ones manufactured.

[Cpt_Frank]

Well, each person was originally limited to a pistol and a rifle, while those with military experience could also have a "SAW or M-60". However - Why the limit? Weight limit, I suspect. You can only carry so much on your person.

But if you just show up and set it down and then store part of what you carried somewhere in the base, it's going to be on your body for just a few seconds, so really it's "how much you can stand up with", not how much you can walk with.

In that case each person can probably come with two rifles along with a fair amount of gear, even if not physically fit. In the case of the military personnel they may very well be able to stand up dangled with a bunch of stuff on.

sounds logical.

[Rob Wilson]

After reviewing a thread on SB, I'll put a similar one here with modification and see what ya'll think.

The top 200 posters on SB, the top 75 posters here on SD and anyone with military experience from either are sent to Middle Earth around TA 3000 (one year before the beginning of FOTR). The main war does not begin until TA 3018.

Assume, for a moment, that we do not immediately kill each other (except BigBryan and Laird).

Present there is a large-sized military base, with .50 cal machine guns and 40mm grenade launchers fixed in armored towers with vast ammo stores that cannot be removed. There are thick concrete walls and a trench, which is spanned by a drawbridge.

Inside are ample barracks and training facilities, a well-stocked medical clinic, a fully functional chemistry lab with supplies, a library of pertinent books, and 150 of the various unarmed versions of the Hummer (tanker, truck,).

Munitions are comprised of a massive supply of rations, uniforms, body armor, fuel, and the following ammo types: 9mm NATO, .40 S&W, 7.62mm NATO, and 5.56mmm NATO, as well as various 12ga shotgun shells.

All those teleported get to choose a pistol and a SMG, Pump-action shotgun, or rifle, but they have no ammo other than that listed above. People who are experienced with firearms may additionally bring a SAW or M60, as well as their personal weapons. They can carry one backpack each. They are automatically immunized to any middle-earth diseases, cured of any current infectious diseases, and know Westron fluently with decent Sindarin. Command is shared by IXJac and Painrack, as they actually have some military experience.

The objective: Neutralize Saruman's forces, and distract the forces of Mordor long enough for the Fellowship to sneak in. Any who completes this operation will recieve a doubled life expectancy (triple for the commanders), treasure, and the ability to return home if you desire.

What do you bring, and how well do we do?

Ok, I've just been pointed here, so Forgive me if I repeat anything already said (in 21 pages... FUUUUUUUUUCK!), I've only read the irst 5 pages so far.

1. As anyone with Military training is allowed in, that means the entirety of the Warwolves are present regardless of post count. Therefore we have FARAM for demolitions! Myself, Perinquus, Coyote, Knife and EmperorMing as training NCO's on top of our specialities. Also the Warwolves have a command and assignment structure in place, ready to roll.

2. The Base has 7.62mm ammo so the default longarm should be the SLR (single fire variant of the FN FAL), this encourages fire discipline, has long range accuracy and hitting power. Pistols should be either Brownings (unless we can change the 40 S&W to .45 then we can get some Colts in for personal preferences).

3. The Personnel need to be fitted to natural roles, this is us as us not a fanfic, therefore if you are naturally bookish and don't like violence then your better off serving in the labs, research, diplomacy or beauracracy. Remember these will doubtless have greater roles in the 19 years before the conflict and impact on our success than the fighting force (who only have a role for one time only, maybe 2).

4. We need links to Middle-Earth kingdoms (knowing about the problems with Grima, we cannot interfere there so need to be wary in our dealing with Edoras). Our base is a great idea and placing it in the the middle of the Gap of Rohan will give us a central location with wide open views all round. We can influence the direction of the URUk hai when needed to come to us so they are decimated before they can reach Helms Deep and we can properly prepare the land. Also as we can choose where the Base goes, it should be on th top of a raise or hill with a natural Aquifer for water.

5. Agriculture. We need indiginous peoples to create a town around our base (outside the moat, and with at least a 100m gap of clear ground between the town and the moat.). They will deal with our agricultural needs, plus the impress for our militia. For evac, a specific tunnel from the main gates to a secured local insode the base where they cannot interfere needs to be created. The fields will be planted using local info and aquired info from books on crop rotation and such. The irrigation of these fields can produce a secondary effect later. Having a town also sots out the sex problem and gives our base a legitimate cover story.

6. Vehicles - are useless in Middle Earth! Even if converted to ethanol they will not go further than a few hundred miles and the terrain will make them barely faster than horses. Instead they will be our means for fast transport of supplies in the base when attacked, and emergency power generators as well.

7. We need horses, and to be trained in how to ride them. there's no other way to get about at speed that is reliable.

8. Chemistry students we need idea's for chemical weapons that are non-persistant, easily stowed and where possible prone to staying within 2-3m of the ground like a low lying mist (so we are safe on the raised walls of the Base incase of wind changes). A suggestion would be to have Rock Salt on stand by and as the town is evacuated the salt is dumped into the irrigation channels for the fields (which will be extensive) and electrical cables laid to the start of the channels. The Uruk hai arrive and we pump in a charge producing Chlorine gas over a wide area. Obviously I expect better idea's from those that know their chemistry.

9. Faram and trained Dems guys will wire the town for dets. I wnat the Uruk hai to use it as cover when they attack, the more of them in there, the more of them get fucked when we start the fireworks. Books on stable explosives and proper trading (another reason for the Gap location, we need to be near trade routes), will enable the Chem lab to create PE4 which will be safe until we det it. All we need do then is set up the Remotes (no worries about ECM so a proper radio det system can be used, and no give away wires).

10. To facilitate trade we need a wagon fareway a roman type design (we have 19 years to build it). This will also induce the Uruk Hai to come down it and so cn be built with Mines (Faram to supervise).

11. Mortars are the easiest artillery to build and supply, plus they have the capacity for close support of thier own position (we can literally keep hitting them when they are next to our walls - if they get that far).

12. Spies. Mordor and Saruman have a way of subverting the inhabitants of Middle-Earth, therefore only the Militi members and selected individuals will get into the base and these will be vetted. The ordinary Towns people get to enjoy the profit of the trade and their own work. As long as we are not heavy handed in our admin of town, they will not complain about not getting into the Base on a daily basis (just so long as they now they can get in there in times of trouble).

13. We cannot get involved in the Fellowship. Much as I like the idea of shadowing the Fellowship and providing help, the Ring can influence even the best of Men and Elves. The Fellowship would have stopped dead if it had been me instead of Boromir that had succumbed! At most we can clear a path (the real scout-trained individuals) and help from a tangenital path - we do know where they will be at any given time. But unfortunately no direct contact or close proximity to the Fellowship - also rotations of Scouts, so no one is exposed for too long.

14. The decision of who's incharge is settled immediately. The Military is already sorted, but we need a civil and overall leader.

15. Everyone from the board gets firearms training, but will hopefully not have to use it.

16. Firearms stay in the base! Bows and swords outside the base. That means we need proper training in them. I can fire a bow, ad use any sort of staff weapon and Knife, but the Swords and Axes and such need experienced people to train in them, so we have to have Elaes, Keevan and any others of that type. I say we expand the range to top 100 posters rather than 75.

The only people that can have Firearms are the Scouts and that's probably only pistols!

17. Bio-weapons are more trouble than they are worth, short duration chem attacks are better.

18. No wheel locks, no gunpowder. Nothing that can be seen and copied by the enemy forces prior to thier attacks. I don't want to face a 10,000 strong Uruk Hai force armed with muskets thank you very much.

Right I'll get on with reading this thread and see how much of what I've just said has already been posted.

[Rob Wilson]

The only people that can have Firearms are the Scouts and that's probably only pistols!

Obviously that Firearms OUTSIDE of the base.

[Coyote]

Ideally, yes, everyone would fight but let's face it there are going to be some who cannot and (while I doubt it) there may be a few who are opposed to the idea of fighting in general. For whatever reason. Remember, we are being chosen by either military experience or post count, which means that we may be getting someone in a wheelchair or with some chronic condition that precludes hard activity...

In the long run everyone who can will get training but we need to play to our strengths and those are our ideas and ability to implement them. Remember, we are not going to be a primary fighting force. We are going to be a command nucleus, an information and technology center, and a training base. At most we'll provide fast recon and will probe the enemy, or act as special forces.

We are there to get the local up to snuff and able to fight a stand-up battle on their own on superior terms than the orcish hordes. Our tiny force will have its hands full as it is, we cannot be expected to carry the battle on our own no matter what our innovations.

[Rob Wilson]

hmm top 200 SB people mean RSA will be tagging along.......should we introduce him to the concept of Fragging?

What difference would it make? He would keep talking and talking and talking and talking even if you put a full clip into him.

Trust me, it would quickly and quietly become the SB top 199 if he didn't toe the line in a survival situation.

[Rob Wilson]

What do we do about power? Diesel generators are a start but it would be good if we had something a little more heavy duty (MHD generators?).

The Humvees running on ethanol.

[Balrog]

Yeah, and Darius III drastically outnumbered Alexander the Great, too - And managed to cut off his line of supply at the battle of Issus no less. It did him very little good. Neither did the tactics of the Mamelukes at the Battle of the Pyramids. The thing is that if we play this right we'll have years to make not only ourselves and anyone we recruit directly into our ranks, but also our auxiliaries, quite disciplined.

Squares of napoleonic infantry, or even pike-and-arquebus blocks, supported by artillery, and highly disciplined, perhaps with some of us serving as NCOs in their ranks, would be exceptionally hard for Sauron's forces to crack. Oliphants will be vulnerable to gas, and to recoilless rifles.

Yes, but this still doesn't account for the fact that Sauron or Saruman might (or will, depending on their spy network) learn not only how to make and operate blackpowder weapons, but how towill train using the weapons. Saruman is already set up for mass-production, and probably as is Sauron, and both can probably train their orcs into using the guns (or Sauron can just use the Easterlings and Harads to handle the gun, there's more then enough of them). I'd just hate for you guys to march up to the Black Gate and find some 100k gun-touting orcs come charging out against you

[Patrick Ogaard]

I'm not entirely convinced of the actual need for or utility of a naval presence, but I'm willing to have a go at it. 

The one thing the taskforce's navy does not need is big warships. Before the age of cannon, the only ways to victory were to ram the enemy to hole the hull or to grapple the enemy's ship to board and turn the naval battle into an infantry engagement. The navy of Byzantium had the advantage of flamethrowers, but that's as far as firepower normally went. Big ships with high sides could accommodate large numbers of troops and gave their personnel the advantage of holding higher ground, but they had low maneuverability. Small ships were maneuverable but had lower sides and small complements of troops.

What the taskforce's navy also does not need is a galley or sailing warship. Sailing ships had to rely on favorable winds for tactical and strategic mobility, whereas galleys could rely on oarsmen for tactical maneuverability but were then limited by the need to carry oarsmen by the dozens or hundreds. That's why galleys normally pulled ashore every evening for rest and resupply.

The taskforce navy should have a completely different concept. Small ships the size of a small caravel or a dhow would be entirely adequate. Think a small to medium-sized modern fishing cutter, or a slightly oversized Vietnam-era PBR (Patrol Boat, Riverine). Oars should be omitted completely, except possibly for a pair of sweeps at the back. Two Humvee diesels will be installed, powering two screws. If the screws are spaced widely apart, and the reverse gear of the Humvee's transmission is retained, crude differential steering could be used to improve maneuverability. If a mast is fitted, it should normally be unstepped and reserved for emergency use.

Installed at the front of the boat is a standard gun pit mounting an 81mm recoilless gun with a gun shield. The gun should not be allowed to fire directly forward or directly aft, to avoid scouring the deck with backblast or scoring a kill on one's own ride. The remainder of the foredeck is left clean, with hatches giving access to the belowdecks area, and possibly a rowboat or two. That way, the taskforce boat can transport additional gear or personnel on the foredeck as needed.

Toward the rear of the boat is installed the bridge, the usual wooden box, but with windows scavenged from a Humvee or two. Direct steering control is provided from there, and someone had best figure out some navigation skills and work out how well compass needles work in Middle Earth. The bridge has a second story, reserved for lookouts, navigators and battle snipers. From that second story the ship's riflemen (and riflewomen, naturally) and machine gunners can safely take the enemy's on-deck personnel under fire.

Behind the bridge is another short stretch of clean deck space. If available, another gun pit, this one with a falconet or additional recoilless rifle, can be installed there. Alternatively, if bombarding a coastal installation or a town, an 81mm mortar might be installed in the gun pit.

An important safety feature is a bilge pump system. In addition to the conventional manual bilge pumps, at least one larger pump should be hooked up to the transmission system, to be turned on as needed. The flip of a switch in the engine room or the bridge should allow a drenching system to be activated, making the boat much less vulnerable to fire damage than other wooden vessels.

Offensively, the taskforce's cutters would never close with the enemy. Rather, the superior speed and maneuverability of the cutters is used to sink vessels at ranges of several hundred meters. Even one hit from a conventional 81mm HE shell should be enough to mortally wound most vessels. A hit below the water line should lead to massive holing of the vessel, while a hit to a wooden fighting tower should destroy the tower and kill or severely injure anyone inside.

A half-dozen such cutters should be adequate to exert considerable control over the major river systems and coastlines. Simply being able to disengage from the enemy at will and withdraw to friendly territory is a telling advantage. If everyone thought to bring a pair of hand-held two-way radios, tactical command and control should be possible, especially if some of the units can be cannibalized to produce larger sets with longer reach. Of course, if selected persons bring CB base stations and the rest bring hand-held CB radios…40+ completely secure channels.

If there is not adequate time to get that kind of work going, and those vessels should take several months to construct, one would simply acquire a half-dozen likely-looking caravels, dhows or the nearest non-union equivalent and do as much conversion work as possible.

These things will not have to compete against modern military speedboats and corvettes, or even against a motor torpedo boat from a century or so past, but rather vessels in a class with triremes, caravels and dhows. This means the taskforce's weapons and speed could be pathetic by modern standards and still leave a Middle Earth fleet a mass of splintered wreckage and floating corpses.

If six of these military cutters are available, two could be held in reserve, occasionally patrolling near the main base, with two others normally on coastal patrol and a further two on river patrol. Locally recruited pilots and mariners will be a must.

[Rob Wilson]

Also:

1) Even if Sauron can identify the location of the Ring, we have superior mobility with our Hummers and can move it far away from its last known location much more quickly than he can get people to it.

Actually no we don't. Horses are infinitely more preferable for the sort of terrain in the Books, than motor vehicles (with the exception of Motorbikes and they simply don't have the fuel load to make it worthwhile).

2) If we've given up on melting it down on our own, we can put it in the lockbox and weld it shut, thus making it extremely difficult to open. Even if we don't have oxy-acetylene torches, we can just battery-weld it (I'm not making this up; you can weld with a car battery).

You can weld with a Microwave emmiter if you really want, but the Destryoing the Ring part is unfortunately precluded as in the Reality of LOTR the only thing tht can destroy it is the fires of Mount Doom (you can invoke magic to explain that if you wish as I doubt it has anything to do with temperatures).

If you prevent the Fellowship from taking and destroying the ring, all you do is strengthen Sauron. The best thing you can do is let Frodo and company carry it (we know it's safe with him upto the FOTR) and then keep a remote watching brief on them as they travel to deal with rogue elements.

[Rob Wilson]

Yes, but this still doesn't account for the fact that Sauron or Saruman might (or will, depending on their spy network) learn not only how to make and operate blackpowder weapons, but how towill train using the weapons. Saruman is already set up for mass-production, and probably as is Sauron, and both can probably train their orcs into using the guns (or Sauron can just use the Easterlings and Harads to handle the gun, there's more then enough of them). I'd just hate for you guys to march up to the Black Gate and find some 100k gun-touting orcs come charging out against you

If we are daft enough to make Muskets and the weapons that require huge numbers of people to effectively use them, then yes he will find out about them and can see how we drill (hiding massive formations of musketmen as they drill is a problem).

We stick to the Small Local Militia (500 tops); The weapons (SLR's or whatever) stay in the Base and massed rifle training can be done in the base (indoor ranges). For the long range training, then these are done on a small group basis, the schedule is randomish and only the instructors know it. The teams are taken out to a locale at least 2 miles away and given the opportunity to shoot at targets 5-600m away.

Our Crew served weapons are operated only by members of the Boards and thier training can be done at the very start, before anyone even knows we exist.

[Rob Wilson]

I gotta disagree. Standard rifle must be 5.56x45mm calibre for all. 7.62x51mm NATO is big, but it goes straight through the target instead of causing much worse wounds than a NATO 5.56. In addition, 7.62mm rifles are inherently heavier and harder to fire. We need weapons that are easily handled.

We don't want them wounded, we want them DEAD! They aren't going to go,"oh we must help evacuate this poor wounded orc."

Massive hydrostatic shock and penetrating power are the orders of the day. The Orcs bulk and armour will work against them.

[Rob Wilson]

M-14; accept no substitute. They had a version chambered for 7.62mm NATO, and they're heavy enough to deal a killing blow with the stock if it gets to hand-to-hand. Also much more rugged than any later western firearm -- And it's complete with a twenty-round magazine.

FN FAL (or SLR) is sturdier (I've used them to batter down blockaded doors, and we used to use them as hoists - held between two people - to get people over walls. Easier to maintian to and holds it's zero well.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Hey Rob, what type of rifle did you use to snipe?

[Rob Wilson]

*VEG* let em use Barret 82 .50 cal sniper rifles?

IIRC, Rob is skilled in the L96 and probably should use what he knows.

I've fired the Barrett. *shrug* Bit of a fucker to lug around though. Just how susceptible to a sneak attack would Saruman be though? He's paranoid, the sheer height of Isengard would preclude clean shots, meaning I have to fire when he's out on the grounds, and how often does that happen? I'm all for it, but until he declares himself as a baddie - in the eye's of Middle Earth we become Baddies and we don't need that as an obstacle.

I think we need to prevent interfering on a grand scale and just prevent the Uruk Hai from getting to Helms Deep in any real numbers.

[Rob Wilson]

Hey Rob, what type of rifle did you use to snipe?

Accuracy International L96-A1.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Ahh, I think my dad had a go on one of those once, but he used the SLR as his service rifle in the RAF.

I forget the name of the best sniper rifle made in the UK, I know the PSG-1 is amazing from all accounts.

[Rob Wilson]

I just discovered to my intense delight that I'm one of the top 200 on spacebattles; scratch my earlier disgust at not getting dragged along. Ooh... This going to be so much fun! Do we get jodhpurs and pith helmets? (NO, that is not a fetish. Really.)

Thoughts?

Cuddles in jodhpurs.... *brain melts* Declaration, all women are to be issued Jodhpurs, all lesbian women are encouraged to chase women who wear Jodhpurs. I get the film rights!

[Admiral Valdemar]

I just discovered to my intense delight that I'm one of the top 200 on spacebattles; scratch my earlier disgust at not getting dragged along. Ooh... This going to be so much fun! Do we get jodhpurs and pith helmets? (NO, that is not a fetish. Really.)

Thoughts?

Cuddles in jodhpurs.... *brain melts* Declaration, all women are to be issued Jodhpurs, all lesbian women are encouraged to chase women who wear Jodhpurs. I get the film rights!

Lol, Marina and the other SD.net and SB.com women.