Major and the Occupation

[Anguirus]

It's not as if casualty totals significantly higher and quicker are unheard of.

Enough of this irrelevance, please.

[Thanas]

sort of. I mean, Odo and her were friends, but it did strike me as strange she'd just forgive him. That's Trek writing for you, everything has to be neatly wrapped up by episode's end, few things are carried forward in terms of character arcs (meta plots like the war with the Dominion are a different story, but I'd argue the writers dropped the ball on that one too). On the other hand, Quark is different to Odo. Quark is an amoral opportunist who'd sell anyone out for a quick buck. Odo is a principled law man who hates injustice and chaos (he claims he hates injustice but the other Founders say it's really that he hates chaos and wants to impose order on his surroundings). He did the wrong thing but the episode showed he was contrite. It was implied that their friendship was strained by the revelations, but not over. Meanwhile, Kira never had a friendship with Quark.

I don't think you give Quark enough credit. If he was as opportunistic as you claim he wouldn't have sold the Bajorans food and medical supplies at a rate that was (for him) blasphemously low. He also wouldn't have covered for his brother Rom during the Dominion occupation of DS9 and help the resistance. Or give up numerous opportunities for wealth because he wasn't ruthless enough (see his loss of the potential Gamma Quadrant profits). And the strange thing was that Odo was contrite, but that never mattered for anyone else but Odo. And Kira had shown a willingness to damn any Cardassian, no matter how contrite or redeemed, for past wrongs they may or may not have committed (exception, the episode Duet). I think we're both in agreement here though that the writer's dropped the ball.

I am not sure about that, I think it is far more logical for Kira to forgive Odo than Quark. Odo, for example, has been her friend for as long as she has been on the station and her closest ally. Which is obviously quite important to Kira, who otherwise has nobody on the station to confide in. So the bond between them is a much different one than the one between her and Quark. Kira dislikes Quark, at best she thinks him a scoundrel (most likely however she regards Quark as a useful, but nasty insect). Then, there is the fact that Odo was, in the majority of cases, very fair, certainly more fair than Bajorian or Cardassian justice was. So it makes far more sense to forgive him a misstep than Quark.

If your only friend messes up, but acknowledges it and is contrite and truly remorseful, you will forgive him far quicker than the known scoundrel across the room who is up to all kinds of things you find offensive.

As for Kira and Cardassians, that perceptive changes. For example, there is the whole Legate Ghemor arc, which ends with Kira burying a Cardassian in her family grave, despite him admitting to atrocities committed against Cardassian. Seriously, anyone who thinks Kira did not change at all should watch that arc and of course season 6, where she is perfectly happy to joke with Damar of all people.

[Crazedwraith]

And of course in Season 7; when she helps run the Cardassian Resistance against the military. Again with Damar; despite him killing a close friend of her. (Tora Ziyal; who was, in fact, half cardassian herself)

[Thanas]

I meant Season 7 and am now eternally ashamed for I had forgotten that DS9 had seven, not six seasons....

[Crazedwraith]

I meant Season 7 and am now eternally ashamed for I had forgotten that DS9 had seven, not six seasons....

Ahh, I just assumed I'd forgotten some Damar/Kira scenes from when DS9 was occupied.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

If your only friend messes up, but acknowledges it and is contrite and truly remorseful, you will forgive him far quicker than the known scoundrel across the room who is up to all kinds of things you find offensive.

I see your point, but the ease with which she did it bothered me. And the difference in their acts was also quite significant as well.

Edit: Removed irrelevant tangent about Odo

As for Kira and Cardassians, that perceptive changes. For example, there is the whole Legate Ghemor arc, which ends with Kira burying a Cardassian in her family grave, despite him admitting to atrocities committed against Cardassian. Seriously, anyone who thinks Kira did not change at all should watch that arc and of course season 6, where she is perfectly happy to joke with Damar of all people.

I don't know, the whole Legate Ghemor thing seemed to be more the result of her pitying him a bit and remembering her regret about her father's death than actually changing her attitude towards him (or at least that's the impression I got). On top of that, he didn't actually commit any atrocities. He participated in the killing of admitted members of the resistance. Major Kira just viewed that as an "atrocity" and "evil."

I'll get back to you about the Damar bit when I see that again, but then look at that min-arc where DUKAT almost charmed her over. It sounds like another one of those little bits of her character where the writers just didn't portray it consistently.

[Thanas]

I meant Season 7 and am now eternally ashamed for I had forgotten that DS9 had seven, not six seasons....

Ahh, I just assumed I'd forgotten some Damar/Kira scenes from when DS9 was occupied.

^Well, those were certainly no joke unless you like to see Damar suffering from impotent rage.

[Thanas]

If your only friend messes up, but acknowledges it and is contrite and truly remorseful, you will forgive him far quicker than the known scoundrel across the room who is up to all kinds of things you find offensive.

I see your point, but the ease with which she did it bothered me.

Hmmm. I think the episode made it quite clear that she would need some time to reflect on it. In fact, I do not think the two were seen together having fun until some episodes later and Iirc there was some comment from her that Odo and I had some trouble at the moment in an episode following that one...

And the difference in their acts was also quite significant as well.

I am not sure I get you there, could you elaborate?

As for Kira and Cardassians, that perceptive changes. For example, there is the whole Legate Ghemor arc, which ends with Kira burying a Cardassian in her family grave, despite him admitting to atrocities committed against Cardassian. Seriously, anyone who thinks Kira did not change at all should watch that arc and of course season 6, where she is perfectly happy to joke with Damar of all people.

I don't know, the whole Legate Ghemor thing seemed to be more the result of her pitying him a bit and remembering her regret about her father's death than actually changing her attitude towards him (or at least that's the impression I got). On top of that, he didn't actually commit any atrocities. He participated in the killing of admitted members of the resistance. Major Kira just viewed that as an "atrocity" and "evil."

I'll get back to you about the Damar bit when I see that again, but then look at that min-arc where DUKAT almost charmed her over. It sounds like another one of those little bits of her character where the writers just didn't portray it consistently.

No, I think it is pretty logical. Kira the character has seen no cardassians that were not monsters in her eyes. In fact, she has spent her whole life killing cardassians based on the view that they took her mother, raped the planet and generally were murderous jerks. In fact, her rage and anger is what drives her. To be honest, she clearly is a bit messed up.

What gradually happens over the seasons (Duet, second skin) is when she gets more exposure to Cardassians as persons instead of just killing them and is forced to interact with them, she discovers that they are not just soulless killing machines. Think back to WWII - a lot of the occupying forces thought Germans were monsters and based on the KZ's alone it was quite understandable. However, in a pretty short time we have marriages, alliances, friendships etc between Germans and occupiers.

In fact, that is Kira's arc - her prejudices and anger and rage gradually get changed by exposure to other species and to other cardassians. As for her taking pity on Ghemor, that might explain some things, but it clearly does not explain why she buried him in her family pit. It also does not explain her chosing to complete the ritual, thereby becoming his daughter (not in the literary sense, but the ceremony symbolizes that). I too recently rewatched DS9 and IMO Kira got more and more soft the longer she was exposed to aliens and cardassians, something that is also exemplified by her former rebel friends being much more radical than she is.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

I am not sure I get you there, could you elaborate?

I meant that Quark's "collaboration" with the Cardassians and his petty crimes are an order of magnitude less harmful than Odo's execution of 3 innocent Bajorans.

Hmmm. I think the episode made it quite clear that she would need some time to reflect on it. In fact, I do not think the two were seen together having fun until some episodes later and Iirc there was some comment from her that Odo and I had some trouble at the moment in an episode following that one...

I think that comment was following the episode where future-Odo confessed his love for her, not the execution episode. And I don't recall seeing any real change in their relationship immediately after the execution issue arose. I will review the episodes in question and double check.

In fact, that is Kira's arc - her prejudices and anger and rage gradually get changed by exposure to other species and to other cardassians. As for her taking pity on Ghemor, that might explain some things, but it clearly does not explain why she buried him in her family pit. It also does not explain her chosing to complete the ritual, thereby becoming his daughter (not in the literary sense, but the ceremony symbolizes that). I too recently rewatched DS9 and IMO Kira got more and more soft the longer she was exposed to aliens and cardassians, something that is also exemplified by her former rebel friends being much more radical than she is.

Duet seemingly got ignored by the writer's after it finished, as she almost immediately reverted to "all cardassians are evil" business after it, so I'm not sure how much that affected her. In the Ghemor arc, I didn't see that same change you saw, as I was positive Kira agreed to the ritual before she knew that Ghemor had been involved on Bajor. She may have felt a lingering obligation, and I'm not sure where else she could have buried Ghemor. The fact that she buried him with her father still ties in nicely with her using the incident to resolve her guilt over her father's death. And Kira's rebel friends were more radical than her even in season one, so I don't really see that as a change.

I'm really not seeing this same shift in behavior you are. I'm seeing her being kind to one or two individual Cardassians, but no real indication of a shift in attitude. There are still episodes like the one where her rebel friends get killed, and they seem to at least hinder the notion of a shift in general attitude towards cardassians. Plenty of racists have the attitude of all blanks are like blank except this one or that one, their ok.

[Thanas]

I am not sure I get you there, could you elaborate?

I meant that Quark's "collaboration" with the Cardassians and his petty crimes are an order of magnitude less harmful than Odo's execution of 3 innocent Bajorans.

That depends. Quark was quite willing to give people up when pressure was applied to him etc. In the larger scheme, what was more useful to the resistance - having an impartial arbiter of justice on the station or a petty criminal, especially considering what might have happened had Odo been replaced by a cardassian.

I think that comment was following the episode where future-Odo confessed his love for her, not the execution episode. And I don't recall seeing any real change in their relationship immediately after the execution issue arose. I will review the episodes in question and double check.

I think they are shown walking alone etc over the promenade. The show does not make a huge point of it and it is quite easy to miss. It might be just coincidence and they really dropped it, but I think it is noticeable.

Duet seemingly got ignored by the writer's after it finished, as she almost immediately reverted to "all cardassians are evil" business after it,

When? Can you name a specific quote or episode?

so I'm not sure how much that affected her. In the Ghemor arc, I didn't see that same change you saw, as I was positive Kira agreed to the ritual before she knew that Ghemor had been involved on Bajor.

She stopped the ritual when she learned about Ghemor's role in the death of her colleagues and eventually came back to complete it.

She may have felt a lingering obligation, and I'm not sure where else she could have buried Ghemor.

It is not as if there is a shortage of space on Bajor.

I'm really not seeing this same shift in behavior you are. I'm seeing her being kind to one or two individual Cardassians, but no real indication of a shift in attitude. There are still episodes like the one where her rebel friends get killed, and they seem to at least hinder the notion of a shift in general attitude towards cardassians. Plenty of racists have the attitude of all blanks are like blank except this one or that one, their ok.

I think you'd have to be blind to not see it, but okay. If you are not seeing it then I guess it is pointless to do so. IMO the major Kira of Season 1 would never have agreed to serve with Dukat in any capacity, but then again, if you are not seeing it, I cannot make you.

[Eframepilot]

Kira was supposed to be partially in the wrong about her past terrorist actions in "The Darkness and the Light". It was an ambiguous situation. The vengeful Cardassian had a genuine grudge against her. Sometimes the main characters are wrong and are never called out on it. That's part of complex characterization.

In the other direction, there is stuff like Kira practically becoming a friend of Dukat at the height of his near redemption arc despite Dukat basically being Hitler or even Satan to her.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

When? Can you name a specific quote or episode?

Kira was supposed to be partially in the wrong about her past terrorist actions in "The Darkness and the Light". It was an ambiguous situation. The vengeful Cardassian had a genuine grudge against her. Sometimes the main characters are wrong and are never called out on it. That's part of complex characterization.

This was one of the moments I was going to mention as a regression from Duet. Her statement at the end of the episode, along the lines of "innocence is just an excuse of the guilty," seemed to me a real regression from her character at the end of Duet.

In the other direction, there is stuff like Kira practically becoming a friend of Dukat at the height of his near redemption arc despite Dukat basically being Hitler or even Satan to her.

Her relationship with Dukat was always confusing to me. One minute she hates his guts, the next she's saving him and being friendly, then she hate's his guts again, then she's extremely close to him and only barely resists his charms, and then she hates him again.

[Anguirus]

^ Is it really that confusing? They built up to a high of mutual respect that Dukat smashed into a zillion pieces when he joined the Dominion. They were later forced to interact on DS9 but they were still working against each other. Certainly no one trusted him after that.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

Is it really that confusing? They built up to a high of mutual respect that Dukat smashed into a zillion pieces when he joined the Dominion. They were later forced to interact on DS9 but they were still working against each other. Certainly no one trusted him after that.

But she did, she was chatting amicably with him, had several awkwardly intimate moments with him, only barely caught herself from accepting a dress from him and going to a party wearing it. And her initial mutual respect thing was weird too. He was her archenemy, the symbol of all that was evil to her, and all it took to build up trust (and tear down most of that hatred) was a few days of cooperation.

[Anguirus]

Like I said, it's been a good long while since I've seen the show, but being friendly with a guy in order to stab him in the back (even if you "catch yourself" feeling a touch of genuine amity) and being genuinely friendly with the guy are two different things.

As for the "initial mutual respect thing," I actually agree it's weird, but on the surface it appears to blow a hole in the OP. There was a whole long chunk when Kira was fairly forgiving to Dukat based on his more recent actions. He played the DS9 crew as a whole pretty masterfully for awhile.

[Chris OFarrell]

No, it's annoying me that no one calls her on her hypocritical bullshit regarding what she did in the occupation, and what everyone else is allowed to do anywhere else ever. Her blatant racism that no one ever questions, her ludicrous double standards regarding the Cardassians attacks on people working for the resistance (it was murder she says, a massacre) versus her standards regarding resistance attacks on civilians (it was war she says, terrible but necessary).

You are rather visibly failing to provide sources here. And to be frank, I can't remember very many examples where we see Kira sitting in judgement over what other people do in situations similar to the Bajoran occupation, at all.

Actually, we don't know whether the Cardassians had any pretext or reason for occupying, as that wasn't given in the show,

There is plenty of evidence strongly suggesting the Cardasians simply wanted to strip Bajor of all its resources for as long as it was profitable to them. I mean in the damn PILOT its spelled out by Picard and Sisko;

SISKO
Yessir... I understand they've spent
the last half century robbing the
planet of every valuable resource...
before abandoning it...

PICARD
(nods)
They've left the Bajorans without
any way to be self-sustaining...
the relief efforts we've been
coordinating are barely adequate.

The Cardasians clearly arrived, took control of the place and systematically took everything they could. They withdrew, evidence suggesting that they were convinced they had exhausted most of the easy resources and, with the political pressure from the UFP increasing, it just wasn't worth it. Note that the SECOND the wormhole was discovered, despite Starfleet having a presence on DS9, a Cardasian patrol at ONCE screamed across the boarder into the Bajoran system and tried to seize a beachhead to restart the whole occupation because suddenly, the place was valuable to them. Only Sisko stopped them with the threat that he controlled the wormhole on behalf of Bajor. But it still didn't stop them trying to sneak their influence and then their control back in through the Circle.

and I'm not sure that's relevant. As for the rest, where is this evidence?

There is plenty of it scattered through episodes if you just LOOK for it.

Some of it, maybe even most of it, comes from the Bajoran resistance (not exactly a reliable source for commentary Cardassian actions),

Kira is perfectly relaible source UNLESS YOU HAVE CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT SHE/ THEY ARE LYING. Seriously, your entire stance appears to boil down to 'we know they are lying about what the Cardasians did because they are the people the Cardasians did this to'; its entirely circular. No-one even calls them on it saying 'oh it wasn't THAT bad', there is clear agreement from poeple like Picard and Sisko that they are telling the truth, you have to actually provide EVIDENCE that they are lying, not simply ASSUME it because you don't like Major Kira for some reason...

we see evidence of ONE nasty labor camp

No, we see evidence of plenty of them mentioned to exist all over Bajor. Terrak Nor *itself* was a Labor camp, and the workers were slaves kept to work until death, at which point more would be brought in to replace them. I mean they even went so far as to build in nerve gas systems that would kill ANY uprising by gassing the slaves and all the quaters filled with Bajorans. Duet has an example of ONE OF THE MORE BRUTAL camps, it also clearly specifies that there were a LOT of them that might not have been QUITE so bad, but were still death camps none the less! We even have Bajorans being kept offworld in Cardasian space in labour camps well after the occupation ended simply because they can do it! In fact, Dukut gives as one of his 'kind' gestures when he took over the job as cutting the labor camp quotas by 50% (camps MULTIPLE, not single), abolishing Child Slave labor (meaning it was state policy until then) and increasing medical care and food to the workers, which led to the dramatic drop in deaths of 20%
And he honestly hates the Bajorans for not appricating these wonderful gestures of kindness!

and ONE doctor performing medical experiments (and that's truly horrendous and inexusable, yes), but even then, the evidence comes from the Major's testimony on how awful it was and the Cardassian file clerk (who was outright lying for the majority of his testimony in order to make the Gul he was impersonating look worse).

The POINT is that the Doctor did what he did and was AWARDED A MEDAL FOR IT. He was allowed to kill hundreds of Bajorans for medical research as a matter of STATE POLICY. We never got a top to bottom look at every single bad thing done in the occupation, it is yet more evidence that the lives of Bajorans were utterly worthless to the Cardasians, free to be used and disposed of only as tools to help the Greater Glory of Cardasia. Its simply part of a patton.

And the Cardassian file clerk was lying about who he was, there is NO evidence that he was making up jack shit. In fact the point is that he HAS such exacting detials about everything that happened led everyone to honestly think that he really WAS the Gul in charge. The Bajoran Government had indicted peopel from said camps for War Crimes, and Kira when she heard about his disease knew there was a good chance he came from said camp, ALREADY having full knowedlge of just what went on there, long before 'Gul Darhe' started confessing to what hapepned, or when he broke down at the end of the episode in utter horror as he relived the nightmare of what happened.

Oh, and I'll also point out that early in said episode, Kira stepped aside and put Odo in charge of the investigation of this Cardasian BECAUSE SHE WANTED SOMEONE IMPARTIAL to investigate him and see if he was guilty of any crimes. Funny how your rabid foaming at the mouth Kira would do such a thing...

Do we know who went to Galitep? Was it mostly resistance members? Was it something close to Guantanamo, or was it more like a concentration camp?

It was said to be a forced Labor Camp, NOT a prison. Ergo, it is a labor camp.

We don't know. But what we do know, is that for Major Kira and the DS9 staff (people willing to forgive Odo for executing innocents

Completly different situation in all respects, and Kira was fucking clearly SHOCKED at Odo and SAID to his FACE that she could never look at him the same way again. If the ST writers forget this a few episodes later, well, thats hardly anything new, but they are COMPLETLY different situations. Odo had *plenty* of evidence to suggest that the 3 innocent people were in fact guilty. Perhaps he conducted a sloppy investigation, under great pressure, but he DID NOT SIMPLY PICK THREE PEOPLE AT RANDOM AND SAY 'those three, kill them'. There is no evidence in the episode he KNEW they were innocent, he simply made mistakes in that investigation and with decades of hindsight and experience later, he knew they were innocent and was beating himself up over it. Bad work, not a big deal.

and who didn't see the attempted genocide of the Cardassians as something the Founders deserved to die for),

What? You say on one hand Kira is a raving nutcase, and on the other you are condeming her for being AGAINST killing an entire species? Can you please make up your mind where you stand? There is precious little evidence that Kira wanted every Cardasian to die, especially after she started in Season One to mellow out and realize that every Cardasian is not the same. When Tom Riker steals the Defiant she rebukes him when he wonders why she isn't happy about him going and blasting Cardasians saying that she was killing the Cardasians who had INVADED HER HOME, but she wouldn't have gone off on some genocidal rampage against the entire speceis if given the choice.

every single Cardassian is damned by even tangential relation to anything on Bajor.

Patently false as we see Kira is increasly able to work with Cardasians, even become friends with them or gain a grudging respect. I mean FFS, until he betrayed the Alpha Quadret, Kira even started to thaw slightly towards DUKAT, the PREFECT of Bajor whom she had loathed as the head of the occupation, working increasingly close with him. She was able to trust Garak, she accepted being addopted as a Cardasians daughter, even forgiving him for some horrible stuff he had done to Bajor. She supported a true Cardasian/Bajoran treaty as did the Bajoran Government, she even went willingly to work directly with/for the Cardasians under Damar despite having every personal reason to hate him for killing Ziyal.

Your stance that she hated every Cardasian on a genocidal level is clearly false.

If they were there they deserved to die (at least according to the Federation and Bajorans).

They shouldn't have been there. It was an occupation, an invasion, they were all legitment targets. If some grand Iranian army SOMEHOW managed to invade and occupy the US, and brought in a large number of support personnel to support their occupation, do you fucking think that anyone would consdier attacks against said support personnel any less valid then attacking military targets? Go and look up the concept of 'total war' some day. World War 2 would be a good place to start, when you stop thinking that wars are all about the US beating the crap out of some 3rd world nation that can't stand up to the US military, halfway around the world...

This stands in such stark contrast to the tolerance and second chances they show towards every body else, that it staggers me that no one mentioned it or called out Major Kira on it.

Because there is nothing to call her on, except in your strange mind...

Fifty million does sound rather low, but it DOES NOT mean that the rest of the population who 'lived' were in the fucking land of milk and honey. The population of Zimbabwe stands at something like 12 million, only a fraction of that have been killed in the insanity of Mugabe, but it doesn't mean that huge chunks of the rest are having a nice time of it! Especially given Star Trek medical technology; the fact that so few died doesn't mean that their lives were anything but utter missery

Really? I think you overstated the casualties by a factor of five AND would need to show evidence that less than a percentage of the population died unnaturally despite living in supposedly awful conditions.

Yes, canon says 10 million, my memory was wrong there. Of course this brought to you by the same writers who were convinced that 2000 Romulan troops could take a core Federation memory world, go figure.

And the facts are simple. When the Cardasians left, they left the planet in such a state that without the Cardasian support, the world was litearally left with NOTHING, it couldn't even FEED itself, a situation that would remain a constant plot point through season One. Get that? The ENTIRE PLANET was in such bad shape that if not for the massive Federation aid efforts, even with 24th century technology, the planet would have starved to death. THAT is the level of support the Cardasians were providing to keep the planet viable and as soon as they packed up and left, the planet was on the brink.

Why would they have access to premium medical tech if they were living in such horrible conditions?

Who said anything about 'premium' medical tech? Keeping them alive long enough to die in the labor camps a lot older then they would otehrwise would be more then sufficent for their needs.

How come none of the Bajorans we see have any malnutrition, even immediately after the occupation?

Because the Bajorans we are seeing are in all cases the 'elite' and not the grunts who DO have access to 24th century medical care and food. In the episode where Kira goes back in time to see her mother and her family, she was SAID to be malnurished, and a lack of any food is a day to day state of being for her and the other people in the cave that is their 'home'. The entire planet is in a food crisis for at least a season, despite large scale outside help from the Federation.

We hear about the utter collapse of the Cardassian medical system after their war with the Klingons and how they are having massive outbreaks of disease, you would think Major Kira or someone else would have mentioned it if that was happening on Bajor.

[/quote]

...Because the Federation was working on rebuilding the place. That WAS the whole point for Sisko going there you know, to act as the senior liason for the Sector in those kinds of things. And again, mass food shortages and famine situations ARE explicitly mentioned, mostly becaus the Cardasians destroyed huge tracts of land across the planet that had once been prime agricultural land. And who knows WHAT state the Bajoran medical system was in, it could damn well be that they didn't HAVE a medical system to speak of in Season One, thus why Kira never brought it up...

Snip the rest because its just going around in cricles.

Fact is that the Cardasians on Bajor all may not have 'deserved to die' any more then ANYONE 'deserves' to die in war. But they were a god damn invading force AND SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. It really is that simple, even before we get into the fact that the Cardasians redefined brutal...

[Steve]

Why do I have a sudden urge to fire up STBC and blow up more Galors and Keldons? Oh, well, aside from being in the middle of another playthrough of it anyway.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

You are rather visibly failing to provide sources here. And to be frank, I can't remember very many examples where we see Kira sitting in judgement over what other people do in situations similar to the Bajoran occupation, at all.

Quark's little stint as an arms dealer comes to mind. More specifically, her attitude towards Cardassians during the occupation. She repeatedly used the excuse "it was war" to justify her actions (to the file clerk in Duet, to the servant in The Darkness and the Light) against cardassian civilians, but condemns cardassians who use that phrase to explain their attacks on members of the Bajoran resistance (Ghemor). That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about. I understand war's a messy business, but it's that way for both sides, something the Major refused to ever acknowledge.

There is plenty of evidence strongly suggesting the Cardasians simply wanted to strip Bajor of all its resources for as long as it was profitable to them. I mean in the damn PILOT its spelled out by Picard and Sisko;

And yet, despite them saying this, Bajor is apparently self-sufficient in short order (definitely by the incident with the Skreeans in season 2)and manufacturing space worthy transport vessels and warships even in season one. Regardless of what Picard and Sisko (or the major says), what we see of Bajor does not indicate a planet completely stripped bare of all natural resources. That would require fairly epic mining efforts and would not have left the numerous completely intact, unexplored, and undamaged ecosystems that Keiko O'Brian investigates. I think the Federation's (if Picard is any indication) views of the situation would seemingly exaggerate the situation (they're much more sensitive to that sort of thing).

The Cardasians clearly arrived, took control of the place and systematically took everything they could. They withdrew, evidence suggesting that they were convinced they had exhausted most of the easy resources and, with the political pressure from the UFP increasing, it just wasn't worth it. Note that the SECOND the wormhole was discovered, despite Starfleet having a presence on DS9, a Cardasian patrol at ONCE screamed across the boarder into the Bajoran system and tried to seize a beachhead to restart the whole occupation because suddenly, the place was valuable to them. Only Sisko stopped them with the threat that he controlled the wormhole on behalf of Bajor. But it still didn't stop them trying to sneak their influence and then their control back in through the Circle.

Actually, DUKAT (who has a persistent personal obsession with Bajor) was already in the area and attempted to enter the wormhole. The Cardassian patrol only arrived in response to Dukat's disappearance, and didn't even believe the wormhole existed. They thought that DS9 had destroyed Dukat's ship (reasonably considering the circumstances) and were going to make it surrender in retaliation. They weren't trying to start a beachhead, nor did they express any interest in reoccupying Bajor (Dukat excepted). The whole circle thing was more of an attempt to kick that UFP out than get the Cardassians back in, and even then all speculation on Cardassian motives was exactly that. The only Cardassian who ever expressed any interest restarting the occupation was Dukat.

Kira is perfectly relaible source UNLESS YOU HAVE CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT SHE/ THEY ARE LYING. Seriously, your entire stance appears to boil down to 'we know they are lying about what the Cardasians did because they are the people the Cardasians did this to'; its entirely circular. No-one even calls them on it saying 'oh it wasn't THAT bad', there is clear agreement from poeple like Picard and Sisko that they are telling the truth, you have to actually provide EVIDENCE that they are lying, not simply ASSUME it because you don't like Major Kira for some reason...

If the visual evidence of Bajor, the its capabilities and resources after the occupation, and the death toll given by the resistance all contradict the claims that the planet was stripped of every resource, then I think its far to say that it probably wasn't. The fact that the death toll is so low (for a fifty year planetwide occupation) seems to contradict the idea that there were tons of labor camps with high mortality rates (hence why I mentioned we only see one NASTY one). They certainly weren't death camps (I see zero evidence for that, they weren't attempting genocide) and I don't recall it ever being mentioned that every Bajoran sent to the camp worked until death. The doctor and Galitep are horrible true, but if they weren't exceptions, then the death toll should be a lot higher. The holocaust shows the kind of casualties actual death camps and concentration camps cause over a much shorter period of time and a much smaller target population.
I won't deny the existence of multiple labor camps, but if they were more like Gulags (less than 5% mortality) than death camps, that would fit the available evidence much better. I don't see any indication that Galitep was the norm rather than an exception. The occupation certainly had its atrocities, but so does any prolonged fighting, and the Bajorans kept by the Cardassians after the occupation seemed to be resistance fighters. As for Dukat, he was completely insane and having full blown hallucinations by the time he made the quote your referencing, so I would regard his statements as dubious at best.

And the Cardassian file clerk was lying about who he was, there is NO evidence that he was making up jack shit. In fact the point is that he HAS such exacting detials about everything that happened led everyone to honestly think that he really WAS the Gul in charge. The Bajoran Government had indicted peopel from said camps for War Crimes, and Kira when she heard about his disease knew there was a good chance he came from said camp, ALREADY having full knowedlge of just what went on there, long before 'Gul Darhe' started confessing to what hapepned, or when he broke down at the end of the episode in utter horror as he relived the nightmare of what happened.

Oh, and I'll also point out that early in said episode, Kira stepped aside and put Odo in charge of the investigation of this Cardasian BECAUSE SHE WANTED SOMEONE IMPARTIAL to investigate him and see if he was guilty of any crimes. Funny how your rabid foaming at the mouth Kira would do such a thing...

I see no reason why the File Clerk wouldn't exaggerate Darheel's personality and motivation to make a point. He wasn't the Gul and I see no reason to believe that he was portraying the Gul accurately rather than conforming to the Major's expectations so she would get him quickly to trial. He did research her specifically, and seemed intent on using her to get himself to trial. Why should we take his performance as an accurate rendition of Gul Darheel? Galitep may have been full of actrocities (and all indications point to this being the case), but that doesn't mean the file clerk is an authority on the motivations and beliefs of Darheel.
As for the Odo thing, SISKO wanted Odo to take over because he was worried Kira wouldn't be objective. KIRA assured him she would. Your recollection of these episodes is inaccurate.

It was said to be a forced Labor Camp, NOT a prison. Ergo, it is a labor camp.

]
Which does nothing to say who went there. It does nothing to say how high the mortality was. The term labor camp encompasses a variety of possibilities in severity, cruelty, and justifiability (not to say a labor camp is ever entirely justified, but some are certainly more justified than others).

Completly different situation in all respects, and Kira was fucking clearly SHOCKED at Odo and SAID to his FACE that she could never look at him the same way again. If the ST writers forget this a few episodes later, well, thats hardly anything new, but they are COMPLETLY different situations. Odo had *plenty* of evidence to suggest that the 3 innocent people were in fact guilty. Perhaps he conducted a sloppy investigation, under great pressure, but he DID NOT SIMPLY PICK THREE PEOPLE AT RANDOM AND SAY 'those three, kill them'. There is no evidence in the episode he KNEW they were innocent, he simply made mistakes in that investigation and with decades of hindsight and experience later, he knew they were innocent and was beating himself up over it. Bad work, not a big deal.

Kira may have said that, but their relationship does not reflect any change. The reality is that show showed her getting over it almost instantly, not any real lingering problems with it. That's the hypocrisy. If you want to say the writer's dropped the ball, fine. I AGREE. It was almost as bad as the reset after the Empok Nor episode.But that doesn't excuse the character within the context of the show. Odo DIDN'T have plenty of evidence, nor did he claim he was under great pressure. He attributed the speed and sloppiness of the investigation to his own enthusiasm, not too the Cardassians.

What? You say on one hand Kira is a raving nutcase, and on the other you are condeming her for being AGAINST killing an entire species? Can you please make up your mind where you stand?

The difference is that due to their unique biology, the every single Founder in the great link is equally culpable (if the Female changeling is to be believed regarding how it works anyway). And the danger that the dominion (which actually attempted genocide, and has committed it in the past) posed was on a completely different level than that of the cardassians. Furthermore, the attempt to wipe out the Founders was conducted within the context of a war and the failure to do so could very well lead to another one that will kill billions. The difference in scale is so staggeringly huge it beggars the imagination. The changelings of the great link have the blood of at least trillions on their hands if their methods to conquer their own space even remotely resembled the Alpha Quadrant war. The casualty estimate for beating just the klingons and federation was 900 billion (mostly civilians from what Bashir said). Can you imagine what kind of casualties must have resulted from the continuous wars the Dominion participated in to conquer the Gamma Quadrant? The sheer scale of death (and the fact that every Founder seems to be equally culpable) is mind-boggling. The two situations aren't really comparable in the crimes and consequences committed by the various parties.

Patently false as we see Kira is increasly able to work with Cardasians, even become friends with them or gain a grudging respect. I mean FFS, until he betrayed the Alpha Quadret, Kira even started to thaw slightly towards DUKAT, the PREFECT of Bajor whom she had loathed as the head of the occupation, working increasingly close with him. She was able to trust Garak, she accepted being addopted as a Cardasians daughter, even forgiving him for some horrible stuff he had done to Bajor. She supported a true Cardasian/Bajoran treaty as did the Bajoran Government, she even went willingly to work directly with/for the Cardasians under Damar despite having every personal reason to hate him for killing Ziyal.

She worked with Cardassians whenever it suited her interests or that of Bajor. I'm not sure where you get her ever trusting Garak, or her supporting the DOMINION/Bajoran treaty (which she only recomended on Sisko's sayso and then proceeded to flagrantly violate). She worked with Damar in order to end the Dominion war, pure pragmatism.

As I mentioned earlier, the Dukat relationship confused me, because it never made any damn sense. I'm inclined to attribute it to Dukat's personal charm and some sort of weakness on the Major's part with regards to him. Or that she cared a lot more for Ziyal then she let on (and she already seemed to view her as almost a surrogate daughter) and that was the sole motivation for her friendliness with Dukat (it was during Dominion Occupation of DS9). As for Ghemor, he participated in a single battle against the resistance during the occupation and Kira felt that was enough to damn him (she had to be convinced otherwise).

They shouldn't have been there. It was an occupation, an invasion, they were all legitment targets. If some grand Iranian army SOMEHOW managed to invade and occupy the US, and brought in a large number of support personnel to support their occupation, do you fucking think that anyone would consdier attacks against said support personnel any less valid then attacking military targets? Go and look up the concept of 'total war' some day. World War 2 would be a good place to start, when you stop thinking that wars are all about the US beating the crap out of some 3rd world nation that can't stand up to the US military, halfway around the world...

There is a difference between someone being a legitimate target/acceptable loss, and them DESERVING TO DIE! You don't seem to be able to grasp this.

I'm out of time, but I reply to the rest of your post later

[Skylon]

If the visual evidence of Bajor, the its capabilities and resources after the occupation, and the death toll given by the resistance all contradict the claims that the planet was stripped of every resource, then I think its far to say that it probably wasn't. The fact that the death toll is so low (for a fifty year planetwide occupation) seems to contradict the idea that there were tons of labor camps with high mortality rates (hence why I mentioned we only see one NASTY one). They certainly weren't death camps (I see zero evidence for that, they weren't attempting genocide) and I don't recall it ever being mentioned that every Bajoran sent to the camp worked until death. The doctor and Galitep are horrible true, but if they weren't exceptions, then the death toll should be a lot higher. The holocaust shows the kind of casualties actual death camps and concentration camps cause over a much shorter period of time and a much smaller target population.
I won't deny the existence of multiple labor camps, but if they were more like Gulags (less than 5% mortality) than death camps, that would fit the available evidence much better. I don't see any indication that Galitep was the norm rather than an exception. The occupation certainly had its atrocities, but so does any prolonged fighting, and the Bajorans kept by the Cardassians after the occupation seemed to be resistance fighters.

Working people to death on a mass scale is something I'd sure as hell define as "genocide." I don't recall any indication Cardassians were working those jobs...they were put into that position of slave labor due to their race.

As for Bajor's capabilities...didn't they nearly have a civil war over some FARM EQUIPMENT in season 3? On the surface, I'd say Bajor was screwed on the order of East Germany post-WWII/post-Soviet occupation in terms of industry, either stealing or destroying any industrial infrastructure. As for resources, I can't remember seeing the Bajorans managing anything except agriculture during the course of DS9, so for all we know their industrail resources are being obtained through trade or Federation assistance.

[Paradox_Fanatic]

Working people to death on a mass scale is something I'd sure as hell define as "genocide." I don't recall any indication Cardassians were working those jobs...they were put into that position of slave labor due to their race.

As I've mentioned repeatedly, the Bajoran death toll means that the Cardassians almost certainly couldn't have been inflicting that high of a mortality rate on the population. There simply aren't enough dead Bajorans for any labor camp system to be both large and have a high mortality rate. Sure the Cardassians weren't working those jobs, but I never denied that only Bajorans (as far as I know) were put there. It's a matter of WHICH Bajorans went there. Innocents, resistance fighters, sympathizers, hostages, we don't know. And whether the camps were indiscriminate or not (or if some, like Galitep were discriminate while others weren't) is something that would make a difference with regards to the claim of genocide.

As for Bajor's capabilities...didn't they nearly have a civil war over some FARM EQUIPMENT in season 3? On the surface, I'd say Bajor was screwed on the order of East Germany post-WWII/post-Soviet occupation in terms of industry, either stealing or destroying any industrial infrastructure. As for resources, I can't remember seeing the Bajorans managing anything except agriculture during the course of DS9, so for all we know their industrail resources are being obtained through trade or Federation assistance.

They were capable of producing interstellar warships in some numbers, so they definitely have an industry. The near civil war was because Kai Winn tried to seize equipment in violation of a previous agreement in order to manufacture cash crops. And they were a little bit more than farm equipment. They were soil reclamators, and apparently capable of massively enhancing soil fertility and removing toxins. But it wasn't simply an issue of the equipment, it was the violation of the agreement on its usage and distribution.

Who said anything about 'premium' medical tech? Keeping them alive long enough to die in the labor camps a lot older then they would otehrwise would be more then sufficent for their needs.

And yet none of the Bajorans we see actually seem to be sick, injured, diseased, or anything. Even when we see Terok Nor, people are exhausted, but there isn't any emaciation or obvious malnutrition. Most of them look quite clean and healthy. Same thing with the Bajoran women that are picked up from the planet. All they need is a bath and they look completely healthy and fine. None of the Bajorans exhibit the signs of physical deterioration and suffering you're claiming they would have undergone. As such, the idea that the Cardassians were simply prolonging their life with barely adequate medical care (something we see zero evidence of) contradicts what we actually see. As much as Major Kira insists that the Bajorans were being worked to death, where are these dying Bajorans? Where are the starving Bajorans? It's possible that Bajor (and Star Trek powers in general) have such ludicrously high living standards that "being worked to death" and "starving are as different from are modern westerner's perception (if it was inflicted upon them) as a modern westerner's perception is from say, a Zimbabwean.

Because the Bajorans we are seeing are in all cases the 'elite' and not the grunts who DO have access to 24th century medical care and food. In the episode where Kira goes back in time to see her mother and her family, she was SAID to be malnurished, and a lack of any food is a day to day state of being for her and the other people in the cave that is their 'home'. The entire planet is in a food crisis for at least a season, despite large scale outside help from the Federation.

Major Kira's an "elite"? Which Bajorans are the "elite"? The only elite would have been the collaborators during the occupation, and they are banned from setting foot on Bajor. It's not like any real time has passed by the time the show starts. Kira's testimony doesn't match up with the evidence we see. And the claims of starvation and malnutrition don't match the physical reality of the Bajorans we see. The food crisis you talk about has Bajor on the edge of self-sustainability. But what makes that it so terribly different from say the USSR post 1950's? Bajor's population might have outstripped its capacity to feed itself, especially if you are right and the Cardassians were shipping in tons of food. And regardless, we see zero evidence there is actually any malnutrition. Even when we see the Bajorans who are fighting to keep their soil reclamators, they look perfectly healthy and well fed.

...Because the Federation was working on rebuilding the place. That WAS the whole point for Sisko going there you know, to act as the senior liason for the Sector in those kinds of things. And again, mass food shortages and famine situations ARE explicitly mentioned, mostly becaus the Cardasians destroyed huge tracts of land across the planet that had once been prime agricultural land. And who knows WHAT state the Bajoran medical system was in, it could damn well be that they didn't HAVE a medical system to speak of in Season One, thus why Kira never brought it up...

We know of one agricultural zone, previously fertile, which was unable to produce cash crops. And we know of one, completely uninhabited zone, that might no longer be fertile. But for all the talk of food shortages and being on the edge of famine, we don't see that reflected in Bajor, as I've mentioned above. And it's consistently portrayed as on the edge of famine, rather than actually being in one. It might be an issue of differing standards (for a society with replicators, who knows what constitutes "a famine"), or it might be that despite us seeing areas that specifically need help with food production (and not seeing anyone suffering from malnourishment), the starving Bajorans are "elsewhere."
As for the medical system, Major Kira is annoyed with the number of vaccinations she has to get (as they were previously eradicated), so clearly the isn't rampant disease (like there is after less than a few months of the Klingon invasion of Cardassia).

Fact is that the Cardasians on Bajor all may not have 'deserved to die' any more then ANYONE 'deserves' to die in war. But they were a god damn invading force AND SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. It really is that simple, even before we get into the fact that the Cardasians redefined brutal...

And your evidence the servant had a choice? Does the fact that they were associated with the invasion make it moral to kill civilians (not necessary or acceptable, moral)? Does their presence make them guilty of crimes by default ? Because I don't think so. As such, i think the major was completely off base when she said that the cardassian is guilty and deserved to die. It's one thing to view them as legitimate targets within a war or as unfortunate collateral damage. It's another to view them as deserving to die.

Really? The Cardassians didn't strike me as any crueler or more brutal than the Romulans, the Klingons, the Jem'hadar, etc. And they certainly didn't do any unparalleled acts of brutality (notice how Quark is STUNNED by the way 20th century humans act with him, a ferengi who lived under the occupation and saw exactly how it went down).