Na'vi Vs. Predator

[takemeout_totheblack]

We're NOT another intelligent lifeform that "makes for an interesting fight from time to time". Jesus Christ, they skin people's skin off and rip their fucking skulls off and bleach them with acid and wear them as necklaces, for Christ's sake. They treated us no differently from any other form of meat. Having them recognize creatures that they previously regarded as mere hood ornaments, after having one of these creatures kill one of their own, is totally silly. I mean, geeze, they kill things and use their bones as decorations - but when one of those things ends up killing them, it's suddenly all cool for them? Isn't that a bit weird?

Well they are aliens, Shroom. It well within possibility that they think differently than we do. Different set of values, different perspective, maybe even a few different emotions. If not that, then their culture would definitely influence how they behave, maybe part of their culture says 'slaughter other species for honor and glory, but if the prey kills you and is intelligent enough to appreciate it then it's worthy of respect' You can't assume they think exactly like us, because they probably don't.
Also, why are you arguing that they wouldn't do something that they have done, onscreen, clear as day, repeatedly? Silly or not, it's canon; they have acknowledged humans as intelligent honorable creatures, and a bunch of the comics have them take a few humans on as disciples or at least fellow hunters!
It's like someone arguing that SW turbolasers are just lasers despite onscreen evidence and EU canon clearly stating that they are not!

[Shroom Man 777]

Yes, it's canon. Doesn't stop it from being silly or weird.

I mean, were the other Predators awed and amazed at Danny Glover's martial hunting skill as he eviscerated their own brethren right there in their own space ship's living room, hence giving him a souvenir and patting him on the back and such as seen in the movie?

I'm not disputing its canonicity, I'm just saying that it's pretty damn weird - and that alien behavior, as you call it, ended up leading to the warrior-alien-culture stuff, as Wong and co. call it.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

This point may have been brought up in similar discussions in the past, but what's preventing the Predators from having different cultures? While the vast majority of them may be honour-wankers, it's pretty clear that there are a few who really are just hunters out on safari looking for stuff to kill. While some Preds may indeed consider humans to be intelligent lifeforms that make for interesting foes, there are those who regard humans as just another kind of meat to hunt.

[Darth Wong]

Oh give me a break. Fucking honour-wanker sci-fi cliche apologists ...

Don't give me this "it's OK, they're alien" bullshit. This stupid honour-wanker Bullshido cliche is not something you can excuse by saying "they're alien"; it is hardly something alien to human society; it is in fact a very old and very tired dramatic cliche.

[takemeout_totheblack]

I fully concede that it's all very silly. IMO they probably would have made more effective and scary monsters if they had ditched the 'honor before reason' bit and kept with the 'I'm going to kill you and tear your spine out' hunter aspect. The honor thing does make for an interesting (to some) element, but ultimately decreases their credibility as an alien entity by adding 'honor' in the first place. That dollop of familiarity decreases their credibility for me personally and just makes them fairly entertaining, not intriguing.

[PkbonupePeter_Kcos8]

This stupid honour-wanker Bullshido cliche is not something you can excuse by saying "they're alien"; it is hardly something alien to human society; it is in fact a very old and very tired dramatic cliche.

The Preds are essentially just a caricature of the old "Tribal Head Hunter" cliche, with some sci-fi wankery thrown in.

While some Preds may indeed consider humans to be intelligent lifeforms that make for interesting foes, there are those who regard humans as just another kind of meat to hunt.

Why can't they treat intelligent creatures like meat? There are plenty of tribal cultures here on Earth which see absolutely no problem with cannibalizing and taking trophies from other human beings. It might even be hypothesized that the Preds are simply extraordinarily ethnocentric. After all, they did basically create human civilization from scratch according to the AvP continuity.

If you think of the Preds as representing a bizarre mix of the bloodthirsty sensibilities of a tribal head hunter and the utter arrogance of a 19th century European colonialist, and then consider the fact that the Preds aren't even of the same species as their prey, its not hard to see how they could be "A-Ok" with hunting other species which they know to be intelligent for sport.

As far as the honor wanking goes, it is pretty silly. However, I could see a human being besting a Predator in combat being enough of a novelty for his Predator buddies that they might be willing to let it slide.

If a group of Redneck hunters in Tennessee saw their buddy get his ass handed to him by a deer, do you think they would shoot the thing or just laugh their asses off? Scale that kind of attitude up accordingly for the warrior society that the Pred's supposedly come from, and you have what happened in the end of Predator 2.

[Stark]

What's sad is it could have just been politics; by honouring the human as an equal(or whatever) it doesn't look as bad that the Predator failed. Maybe it was the captain's son and he was trying to make it look less embarassing. It doesn't have to be space samurai.

[Oskuro]

Or it could have been just that Predator leader being honorable.

The actual cliché here is to model their whole society on the actions of a few individuals. Maybe the Preds that let Danny Glover go had an special respect for humans not shared by the rest of their species, maybe the Preds using Earth as a hunting ground have all this bushido-style rules just because they like to, and Predator office workers back home care nothing about it. It's the same as happened to the Klingons in Trek (or to most alien races in most fiction), a few members show certain traits, and that automatically means their whole culture is built around those traits.

[Stark]

I don't really see how it's 'honourable' to let a guy who just killed your mate go when you've been hunting people just like him for decades. That's like letting a dangerous cow go, or something. A deadly hippo 'honourably' released after goring a family on safari. Identifying the mysterious actions of an alien psychology by human standards seems pretty risky.

But hey, the predators being associated with the Marie Celeste doesn't make a great deal of sense anyway; maybe he was just fucking with Danny Glover.

[Swindle1984]

We're NOT another intelligent lifeform that "makes for an interesting fight from time to time". Jesus Christ, they skin people's skin off and rip their fucking skulls off and bleach them with acid and wear them as necklaces, for Christ's sake. They treated us no differently from any other form of meat.

Right, and humans have never done that to each other.

Having them recognize creatures that they previously regarded as mere hood ornaments, after having one of these creatures kill one of their own, is totally silly. I mean, geeze, they kill things and use their bones as decorations - but when one of those things ends up killing them, it's suddenly all cool for them? Isn't that a bit weird?

I'm guessing you hate the ending of Zulu.

[PkbonupePeter_Kcos8]

I don't really see how it's 'honourable' to let a guy who just killed your mate go when you've been hunting people just like him for decades. That's like letting a dangerous cow go, or something.

It is hardly unprecedented even in human cultures. Certain Native American tribes, for instance; were notorious for "counting coup" during battles rather than actually killing their opponents. It isn't exactly the same thing, but it does demonstrate that the whole "honor before practicality" culture of the Preds isn't really all that far fetched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coo

Apart from that, given the sheer amount of machismo that would probably go along with the kind of warrior culture the Preds seem to possess, I could definitely accept the notion of Glover being allowed to live in order to lessen the embarrassment or "dishonor" of their comrade's defeat.

[Stark]

That's totally different; that's a specific kind of combat that isn't about death. It's NOT 'Tim went out and murdered a bunch of primitives and through a series of unfortunate events was brutally murdered by Danny Glover, so... we let him go with a neat pistol after he penetrated our ship'. The obvious contrast is the predator in the first movie, who upon defeat vengefully attempted the 'winner' while cackling manically.

Turns out the idea of a homogenous 'honour' society in predators is nonsense.

[PkbonupePeter_Kcos8]

That's totally different; that's a specific kind of combat that isn't about death.

Not necessarily. According to the article, it was just a rather specific way of gaining individual honor during battle. Kind of a "I'm so much better than you, that I could've killed you, but I chose not to" kind of deal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup

Counting coup refers to the winning of prestige in battle by the Plains Indians of North America. Warriors won prestige by acts of bravery in the face of the enemy, and these acts could be recorded in various ways and retold as stories. Any blow struck against the enemy counted as a coup, but the most prestigious acts included touching an enemy warrior, with the hand or with a coup stick, then escaping unharmed.

Of course I could be mistaken. I'm no anthropologist.

Turns out the idea of a homogenous 'honour' society in predators is nonsense.

Undoubtedly. However, such behaviors were never homogenous even in cultures where it was considered to be a requirement for acceptance in greater society. Not every knight was chivalrous, and as quite a few WW2-era horror stories from the Pacific can attest; followers of actual Bushido weren't always that honorable.

The Predator in the first movie was alone, pissed off, and had no one to restrain his inhibitions or judge his actions. Glover took down his opponent in front of his entire clan.

[Stark]

Only because the ship actually landed instead of dropping him off. Saying his problem is 'restraint' that needs the support of his 'clan' shows how much stuff we add in to the very limited information when we talk about unknowns.

And seriously gaining honour by not killing people seems totally inapplicable to predators, whose every action is based around killing hostiles.

It's sad because the P1 and P2 scenarios are obviously very different, but the 'EU' just ran with a simple interpretation of a single scene in the second movie and ignored everything else.

[PkbonupePeter_Kcos8]

Saying his problem is 'restraint' that needs the support of his 'clan'

I'm just saying that the clan was around to serve as an objective observer to the battle, and had to decide Glover's fate afterwards. That doesn't mean that the Predator himself wasn't still a spiteful dick (he tried to blow himself up before Glover cut his hand off at the wrist).

And seriously gaining honour by not killing people seems totally inapplicable to predators, whose every action is based around killing hostiles.

Like I said, its not the same. It just highlights the fact that certain cultures have adopted seemingly ridiculous practices purely for the sake of honor.

But hey, the predators being associated with the Marie Celeste doesn't make a great deal of sense anyway; maybe he was just fucking with Danny Glover.

Wow...How did that play out exactly?

Captain: "OH MY GOD...It's using the masts!!"

[Stark]

Yeah but we don't know it's his 'clan', or that predators are bestial, or anything like that, but we unconsciously apply all this EU silliness even when we're talking about how broken it is.

I want to know if the ship really has no furniture, or if they cleared the decks when they heard Armless Predator was running home.

[Balrog]

Out of curiosity, where exactly in the Predator EU (or whatever is it called) does it say their entire society revolves around this silly Bushido/Klingon/Mindless Honor and such? I've only ever watched the movies, and while there is a hint of that with Danny Glover, it doesn't really show up anywhere else.

And as an aside, after having just watch the original on TV, there is little doubt that a Pred is a lot tougher to kill than a Na'vi, especially after the hunter had a freakin' log dropped on his head and was conscious, never mind alive, long enough to cackle madly and activate the mini-nuke. Sure it was fatal, but that's a level of durability I don't think we ever saw from any Na'vi.

[adam_grif]

I've only seen the movies and played the AvP games. I suppose it's probably from the comics or something?

The shittacular AvP movie had the predators coming to some pyramid on Earth to hunt aliens as a rite of passage.

[Oskuro]

Heh, two things.

First, the whole letting Danny Glover live might have been just about that Pred leader. It reminds me of bullfighting around here, where a bull can be pardoned if he performs admirably (and thus has value for procreation purposes).

Of course, bullfighting is cruel and stupid bullshit.

Secondly, about the first Pred activating the Nuke and the second not doing it. WRONG! When hanging off the building, the Pred actually engages his Nuke, but Danny Glover chops off his hand and cancels it.
Yeah, the bastard was about to nuke a whole neighbourhood of unarmed civilians (many probably children), a neighbourhood, incidentally, wich lied on top of his ship, thus he might have killed his mates too.
Not very honorable, mind you.

[adam_grif]

Of course, bullfighting is cruel and stupid bullshit.

But hunting Austrian Bodybuilders and their colleagues for sport isn't.

I like the way you think.

[Ilya Muromets]

Having them recognize creatures that they previously regarded as mere hood ornaments, after having one of these creatures kill one of their own, is totally silly. I mean, geeze, they kill things and use their bones as decorations - but when one of those things ends up killing them, it's suddenly all cool for them? Isn't that a bit weird?

I'm guessing you hate the ending of Zulu.

Okay, I've stayed out of this discussion so far since I prefer to mostly just watch, but this is just too stupid a line of reasoning to call out. How is Predator 2 even remotely comparable to Zulu? Zulu was a fucking battle in a war, not some glorified honor-testing hunting trip. and let's not even start with how that entire ending was contrived and never happened in the real Battle of Roarke's Drift.

Using that to deflect that point that the Predator's action didn't make sense and isn't realistic is already funny on that point alone, since that "we let them go because they are fellow braves" was also a complete fantasy the movie makers tacked on. In fact, it just supports the whole point that the Predators in Pred 2 were following that whole "honorable hunter/tribesmans/Bushido-wanker" cliche since that's exactly what the end of Zulu was: a proud savage but honorable warrior trope THAT WAS COMPLETELY MADE UP.

[Sinewmire]

What? A captive human became accepted into the hive by doing HORRIFIC STUFFS

Oh dear god, this is why I hate the Aliens EU. A friend once earnestly attempted to explain to me that you could turn aside an Alien's attack by thinking hard, and that Aliens see your soul.

He also seemed to believe the "Xenomorphs" originated in comics, despite the fact that H.R. Geiger invented them for the first movie. Urgh.

I'd always seen the whole letting-danny-glover-go like a bunch of hooting redneck drunks watching their brawler friend fight a scrawny local, betting him $500that he won't win. When he wins, they're not happy. Their leader chucks him his reward and tells him to get lost or they'll kick his ass.

I'd always seen predators as a bit of a pastiche on the Great White Hunter - see how you like being hunted by someone with the technilogical equivalent of a rifle to your claws. Still feel like firing at lions from your SUV?

As for Predators vs Na'vi? Well, either the Predator wins lots, or the Na'vi win, and get themselves upgraded to Something Cool To Hunt. Not a great proposition, there.

Predator vs Na'vi: Whoever wins, the Na'vi lose.

[Shroom Man 777]

Of course, bullfighting is cruel and stupid bullshit.

But hunting Austrian Bodybuilders and their colleagues for sport isn't.

I like the way you think.

Unless the bull can throw improvised exploding arrows at you, smash your face in a rock, and ruin your shit hard enough for you to spontaneously nuclear-explode, yeah.

Illya brings up a good point. Zulu's ending was bullshit because, IRL, it was never about bullshit warrior honor. The battle was resolved because of the staunch British defense and because the Zulu had a whole bunch of losses and were exhausted or something.

Jesus Christ. If non-Predator warriors who worthily defeat Predators are given butt-slaps and stupid trinkets, then why the hell do they even bother carrying around nuclear explosion bracelets with them? They should be packing congratulatory leaflets or something, to give to whoever bests them in honorable duel.

So, yeah. I guess maybe the Predator chief in Predator 2 was just some weirdo or something. Maybe, yeah, like what Lord Osuko said he thought that Danny Glover should be kept alive so that the spawn of his loins would procreate worthier prey within the human genepool or something.

[Eviscerator]

At what point do other contributions made by comics, game stuff and other what else must not be entered into an discussion?
If we confine ourselves fully to the first movie, IIRC there was reference made that a single warrior/drone can on it's own possibly restart an own hive. Or was it in an deleted scene....

Nevertheless i always have enjoyed the Aliens EU, or else how would we have such fun stuff as Gorilla Alien, Bull Alien, Flying Alien Queen etc etc .... anyone remember the APEX armor?

[Oskuro]

I'm also thinking that maybe the Pred leader from Predator 2 (let's call him Bob) was scorning the rest of the Preds. After all, the handless Predator (let's call him Luke) just barged into the ship looking for a gun or something because a lowly man-animal was kicking his ass. I can totally see Bob telling the other Preda-kiddies: "See what happens? Now I'm going to let this man-dude go so you kids learn not to be such wusses as Luke here"


Now, more seriously, it bothers me what they did with the Pred culture. I liked Bob. He was different, he was honorable, it looked like he had visited Earth so many times he kind of respected humans (He had taken a gun as a trophy, instead of a skull), it was an interesting twist on the hunter-monsters that made you think there might be more to them or something.
And then they homogenized that attitude all accross their species. Yech, honor must be an STD.

The other cool Pred was the one from the godawful AvP2, he was so badass you could almost picture him saying "Earth is thirty minutes away. I'll be there in ten". And I liked that an Alien infestation on Earth only prompted a lone fixer to go and solve it, rather than mobilizing the whole Pred culture to stop the OMG-So AWFUL Aliens from eating the universe, I liked because it said: Earth sucks, and so do the Aliens, and the Preds hunting there are a minority, not the WHOLE SPECIES. I bet the Pred army had more interesting things to do, like, I dunno, talking about trigger guards or something.

But fanboys have to keep ruining it. What the hell.

But hunting Austrian Bodybuilders and their colleagues for sport isn't.

I like the way you think.

Well, of course! Actually, I was just stating my serious opinion on bullfighting, lest someone believe I was claiming that it is in some way honorable.

Unless the bull can throw improvised exploding arrows at you, smash your face in a rock, and ruin your shit hard enough for you to spontaneously nuclear-explode, yeah.

I take it you've never seen bullfighting?