Starcraft II Beta Live!

[adam_grif]

I didn't bother signing up, because no RTS has been able to scratch the itch left by Company of Heroes.

Try World In Conflict adam.

I was going to recommend it as well. Speaking of Company of Heroes, I still haven't played it.

I gave it a shot, but I didn't enjoy it all that much. Plus it runs like a dog on my obsolete PC, whereas CoH runs fine.


CoH? Try it at once sir! Best RTS in years.

[Losonti Tokash]

I gave it a shot, but I didn't enjoy it all that much. Plus it runs like a dog on my obsolete PC, whereas CoH runs fine.


CoH? Try it at once sir! Best RTS in years.

That's...interesting. WiC runs waaaay better on my old laptop then CoH ever did.

[Stark]

He's probably got it configured wrong; WiC always outperformed CoH on my systems too. WiC is ludicrously scalable if you're smart enough to turn it down a bit. WiC'll get 60fps on a 6600GT.

[[R_H]]

I started playing CoH (the tutorial) yesterday. The DoW games should have been more like it, especially the resource model. The only thing that it doesn't do that well is vehicular combat (compared to WiC). But, the possibility of mobility killing a vehicle is pretty neat.

[ArmorPierce]

You know 'strategic zoom' is a buzzword that refers to single-button movement to fullscreen, right?

Anyway, you don't 'include' the ability to zoom out; zoom distance is a cap. It's not about 'different game'; it's a clear indication that they're just replicating an ancient game for fanboys, because unless their engine sucks there's no reason to limit viewport zoom.

Getting a clear idea of battle should involve either squinting at totally useless minimaps or panning furiously, I guess. Good thing Blizzard has a market so easy to please.

I recall that some games people would mod their games so that they can view the entire map at the same time. It was considered cheating. This was in AoM I think.

[Covenant]

EDIT -- I'll probably still end up buying it, but only because that's what my friends and I will be LANing up for awhile.

There's no LAN-play in SC2.

So one step back there and few steps forwards elsewhere. I've got to say I was disappointed. This looks exactly like SC2--I was hoping they'd at least consider some of the dramatic fun-and-function innovations of the modern RTS era. I understand why they didn't (a market of slavering idiot fanboys) but it seems like the most dumbed-down form of RTS on the market. We can only hope that there's layers of environmental strategy that we're not seeing.

[[R_H]]

EDIT -- I'll probably still end up buying it, but only because that's what my friends and I will be LANing up for awhile.

There's no LAN-play in SC2.

Wait, no LAN-play? What the hell is Blizzard thinking?

[Steel]

We can only hope that there's layers of environmental strategy that we're not seeing.

Oh, but of course! Haven't you heard, theres these big piles of rock you can blow up (with sustained fire from pistols!) to get a back passage into enemy bases!

[Stark]

You know 'strategic zoom' is a buzzword that refers to single-button movement to fullscreen, right?

Anyway, you don't 'include' the ability to zoom out; zoom distance is a cap. It's not about 'different game'; it's a clear indication that they're just replicating an ancient game for fanboys, because unless their engine sucks there's no reason to limit viewport zoom.

Getting a clear idea of battle should involve either squinting at totally useless minimaps or panning furiously, I guess. Good thing Blizzard has a market so easy to please.

I recall that some games people would mod their games so that they can view the entire map at the same time. It was considered cheating. This was in AoM I think.

It IS cheating if everyone else can't do it too. Do you honestly think cheats are relevant to game design? Selecting more than four units in Warcraft would be cheating too - but does anyone give a fuck?

[ArmorPierce]

I did think that it was cheating. Then again, Modded UI's that allowed people to have a larger view of the screen was not considered cheating.

[Stark]

ITT we learn communities of gamers have obscure house rules. Its not relevant.

[Covenant]

Wait, no LAN-play? What the hell is Blizzard thinking?

It's a pretty grotesque measure, but they're trying to clamp down on piracy, and with a cash-cow like Starcraft I can't blame them. What I don't understand is how they'll insure that people can play online at good speeds for tournament play, which is what half of the SC community masturbates thinking about.

My first guess, not having read very much, is dedicated server-space on Battle.net mark 2 or something similar.

In any case, yeah, it sucks. Frankly, I'd give up LAN play if they actually had advanced the game though.

[adam_grif]

It's a pretty grotesque measure, but they're trying to clamp down on piracy, and with a cash-cow like Starcraft I can't blame them.

Wait what? Wouldn't it make more sense for a game that wasn't guaranteed to break 5 million copies sold to take drastic anti-piracy measures?

People always talk about how antipiracy measures screw the legitimate customer, but removing LAN play from Starcraft to prevent piracy is like kneecapping your daughter to protect her from potential sporting injuries.

[The Jester]

It's more complicated than the piracy issue. There's been a lot of deadlock in disputes between Blizzard and KeSPA (the body that manages professional Starcraft events in Korea) and it's part of a measure to gain control of broadcast rights indirectly since all multiplayer--including professional events--would have to go through their servers.

On a different note, I've discovered that in order to build 24 Zerglings from 12 selected lava you have to hit the 'Z' key 12 times. Jesus-fucking-christ that's retarded even compared to the original Starcraft (you only had to hit 'Z' once). I mean it's one thing to have to select five individual hatcheries, select their lava and command them to morph, but to literally sit there and spam a single key every time you want to produce a round of units is really turning the tedium up to eleven.

[adam_grif]

There's been a lot of deadlock in disputes between Blizzard and KeSPA (the body that manages professional Starcraft events in Korea) and it's part of a measure to gain control of broadcast rights indirectly since all multiplayer--including professional events--would have to go through their servers.

Are you telling me that they're doing this so they can have a monopoly on broadcasting rights?

Shit, it's like they just woke up and decided that they had generated too much goodwill over the years and that they had to get rid of it as fast as possible.

[The Jester]

Are you telling me that they're doing this so they can have a monopoly on broadcasting rights?

Shit, it's like they just woke up and decided that they had generated too much goodwill over the years and that they had to get rid of it as fast as possible.

I wouldn't know about monopolising, but they certainly want a slice of the pie (at the moment I don't recall them receiving anything substantial). At the moment, KeSPA controls everything related to Starcraft in Korea and they aren't exactly the best bunch either.

[Nephtys]

Surprise surprise. Blizzard makes jack shit attempts to innovate or actually make a better game. Instead, it's the totally expected reskin of the same goddamned game. The same game that has enough mindless fans to just accept a clunky outdated UI, rock paper scissors unit balance, uninteresting combat modeling and pointless micro for stupid powers that units should do automatically.

'Features' like the 12 unit select are just anachronisms from an earlier, cruder age that are tolerated by 'skilled' players who think dealing with an obsolete UI is somehow a valuable gameplay experience. SupCom showed that you can eliminate a lot of tedious micro with a flexible control system, and that variable zoom is a wonderful thing for a traditional RTS.

I remember when Blizzard stood for quality games, instead of appealing more and more to a conservative niche that refuses to change with the times.

And no LAN play? That's just stupid.

[White Haven]

I'm more and more glad that I wasn't intending to buy SC2 short of the bargain bin anyway, especially with Supreme Commander 2 about to come out. Kinda funny, given that Total Annihilation was out alongside with Starcraft in the first place.

[Covenant]

It's hard not to see why game companies constantly put innovation and depth aside, it simply doesn't have a large correlation with sales. When you look at the stuff that makes the most end profit it's either a blockbuster success or some relatively stupid little product that just took off, the latter of which being extremely valuable to companies due to their low overhead. Anyone who didn't expect this move was lying to themselves

People say they want depth and intelligent, nuanced gameplay and certainly a good number of people do. But there's still lots and lots more people that would rather spend their money to buy new hats for their avatar, or spend an hour and a half a day checking their online stock market / farm simulation games. When you look at the XBox or PS3 markets, the indie games are especially chilling, especially considering how much innovation actually occurs in the indie market. If people really did like clever, new styles of play, that's what would be booming. The indie markets do generate funds, but the real winners are fairly rare, still expensive to produce, and either derivative or entirely banal--such as where the line between 'app' and 'game' blurs. How many "massage" games for a rumble controller does a system need?

Overall, Blizz has no excuse for this asinine behavior except that it makes them money to do it this way, and that's basically what it boils down to. Given the amount of very good, very interesting and very well received new-style RTS games (CoH, WiC, SupCom) they could have easily redefined the market, rather than underlined the old one. Still, Blizz has never been keen to innovate, just to put high production values into a last-generation method. It's why their games end up rather balanced and extremely playable, if intellectually dull.

[White Haven]

I was somewhat hopeful they'd do with SC2 what they've done over time in WoW and shamelessly rip off everyone else's recent/current good ideas, put a layer of polish on them, and call the result their own. Instead, they've decided to polish a turd.

[Uraniun235]

I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard's ability to produce a quality RTS when their own fanboys will attempt to argue that intensive micromanagement adds strategy by creating a scarcity of clicks that can only be applied in so many places. Games like Total Annihilation and Supreme Commander had some pretty severe flaws of their own but god damn you don't see many TA/Supcom fanboys arguing that the UI should be an impediment.

[Oskuro]

A Starcraft mod for WiC would at least have been interesting

That would be Ground Control 2, the direct predeccessor to WiC, a very nice game that went mostly unnoticed.

On one hand, the notion of keeping things simple and classic I understand, it's Star Craft 2 after all, the gameplay should be similar for it to be a sequel, unlike the mess that was Warcraft 3.

On the other hand, innovation is always good, and I think the problem is more about there being no attempts at other approaches. Blizzard makes SC2, a few copycats will pop-up, and that'll be it. It'd be nice if Blizzard itself mixed things up with alternative titles set in the Star Craft universe, exploring new gameplay mechanics and all like.... Starcraft Ghost? What the hell happened there? They could also release a squad based Starcraft game, even a Diablo-esque one. But hey, it's just THE game, and we're stuck with the same gameplay.

Any word on the single player campaign? Are they still planning on selling the campaigns separately?

[Nephtys]

I have a great idea for a game that requires MAXIMUM SKILL. In fact, this will be the most elite, competitive, SKILLFUL game ever.

- First, the viewing area of the screen will be approximately 640x480. The rest of the screen will be filled by minimaps and important gauges you must monitor at all times.
- Every single unit you have has 6 different special powers, such as 'fire grenade' or 'reload gun' or 'stab enemy'. They will not do any of these actions without you telling them to. If a gun is out of ammo, you need to use reload or switch to a knife or else it will not fight the enemy. Realism.
- Because of the extreme bravery of your soldiers, they will not move when shelled from beyond their range unless ordered to, and will die without responding at all.
- You may only select four units at a time. But you can set them to groups 1 through 10.
- You are not allowed to queue up production at multiple factories. Skilled commanders will make do clicking the bottom bar every ten seconds.
- The minimap will be color coded for two colors: Enemy and Not-Enemy.
- All of your units gain a damage bonus for each click you perform vaguely in the direction of the enemy.
- The highly advanced combat model will have two states: Hit and miss. This represents the most accurate possible way to model weapons fire ever.
- Scale is very important to us. A giant flying capital ship will not be shot down by six soldiers with rifles. It will require eight.
- All 20 of your resource gatherers must be told to pick a separate resource pile, or else they will put down their tools and take a fiver.
- There are 3 damage types and 3 armor types. Armor A resists Damage A, but is vulnerable to damage B. Armor B resists damage B, but is vulnerable to damage C. This is extreme design brilliance.
- Pathfinding will be perfected so that instead of shuffling back and forth when blocked by a friendly trooper or obstacle, they will stand still and do nothing instead.
- In two years we will release an expansion pack adding 3 to 5 units total. This will be hailed as brilliant and game-changing.

I eagerly wait to receive the combined fortunes of all Koreans.

[Covenant]

I can't even play these games because they hurt my wrist. I don't have carpal tunnel but I get intense wrist pain from using my art tablet, mouse and keyboard so much. Lots of clicks just makes it flare up a ton, even for a game like STALKER where I only have to click once-and-a-while to kill dudes. SC2 and other click-fests really do ruin the experience because it actually becomes physically uncomfortable to click that often. My APM is always very low because I try to find ways to use my non-drawing hand to help me out a bit.

[PkbonupePeter_Kcos8]

Starcraft Ghost? What the hell happened there? They could also release a squad based Starcraft game, even a Diablo-esque one. But hey, it's just THE game, and we're stuck with the same gameplay.

You should be able to mod some of this in using the editor if the hype from Blizzard is to be believed. That's basically the only reason I'll be buying this game anyway.