SD+SB in Middle Earth

[Rob Wilson]

.223 has almost the same stopping power as 7.62 NATO. The cartridge is lighter, has less recoil and it needs less training.

Not at range it doesn't, at 500m it'll barely knock down an Electronic target (used for "Fall when hit" ranges). We're going to need to engage and kill them at range to stand a hope of stopping their charges effectively. At 100m it doesn't make a difference, but we don't want to start shooting that late in the day. The further they are when they drop the better!

[Sea Skimmer]

Our base is established to be a the mouth of the river Isen per the original thread.

What knobhead came to that brilliant bit of stratgic positioning?

Well we can do sooooo much so far from all the action, and with so few assets to project our power effectively. Which SB military genius came up with this? And I've noticed a lot of threads at th begiingin were concerned with where to place our base for maximum effectivness. If SB want to be all the way over there, let them, however lets have the people with the brains in the best plac to use them.

A squadron of Pave Low's and an laden Arsenal ship would aid us even more. The remote location both adds a challenge, and provides some seclusion. That's actually useful, since we can have some significant infrastructure outside our walls but not need to worry about technology being easily stolen.

If you don't like the premise of this thread, then start your own.

[Rob Wilson]

As for being slaughtered. By who? We have 18 years before the war really begins. There is no Orc hoard in Isenguard yet. Where going to need to leave often to build up forces and keep our selves going.

So you want to attack Isengard immediately, and have everyone on Middle Earth after our guts, as Saruman is still thought of as a Good guy at that point. So with the Armies of the west concentrating on us instead of Mordor you want to make Saurons job easier??? Um, ok. you do that.

WTF? Where the hell did I say that? In fact I've stated I'm AGINST an outright attack on Saruman for exactly those reason.

Sorry, I read your "no Orcs at Isengard" as a reason to attack it (after all the No slaughter bit did suggest attacks). For foraging we can't risk our weapons being out in the world where they could conceivably be captured. (not because of danger of replication, but more because we can't afford to tip our hand).

As to forces, I say bring a town to us and use th locals for foraging and a basic Camo deception. It allows the opening of trade routes for materials and also increases our (carefully selected) manpower base for the Militia.

Sorry about the misunderstanding there, I'm only up to page 18 at the minute

[Cpt_Frank]

.223 has almost the same stopping power as 7.62 NATO. The cartridge is lighter, has less recoil and it needs less training.

Not at range it doesn't, at 500m it'll barely knock down an Electronic target (used for "Fall when hit" ranges). We're going to need to engage and kill them at range to stand a hope of stopping their charges effectively. At 100m it doesn't make a difference, but we don't want to start shooting that late in the day. The further they are when they drop the better!

I see your point, but the problem is, do you think most of our people here will be able to hit a target that is 300 or 400 meters away with iron sights?
I for one get serious problems above 200-250 meters (but then again I've never had military training nor do I have regular access to modern battle rifles since I don't have a license.)

[Rob Wilson]

A squadron of Pave Low's and an laden Arsenal ship would aid us even more. The remote location both adds a challenge, and provides some seclusion. That's actually useful, since we can have some significant infrastructure outside our walls but not need to worry about technology being easily stolen.

If you don't like the premise of this thread, then start your own.

How is the seclusion useful? We can't act all the way from over there, we'd have to ride out on horses and that limits what we can take and use. The Humvee's would be too slow and need to much fuel to get anywhere useful, and we haven't the wherewithall to set up a decent supply chain. The location is quite possibly the worst thing about the scenario. Also where in the First post here does it say we are located at the head of the River Isen?

Present there is a large-sized military base, with .50 cal machine guns and 40mm grenade launchers fixed in armored towers with vast ammo stores that cannot be removed. There are thick concrete walls and a trench, which is spanned by a drawbridge.

Inside are ample barracks and training facilities, a well-stocked medical clinic, a fully functional chemistry lab with supplies, a library of pertinent books, and 150 of the various unarmed versions of the Hummer (tanker, truck,).

Munitions are comprised of a massive supply of rations, uniforms, body armor, fuel, and the following ammo types: 9mm NATO, .40 S&W, 7.62mm NATO, and 5.56mmm NATO, as well as various 12ga shotgun shells.

All those teleported get to choose a pistol and a SMG, Pump-action shotgun, or rifle, but they have no ammo other than that listed above. People who are experienced with firearms may additionally bring a SAW or M60, as well as their personal weapons. They can carry one backpack each. They are automatically immunized to any middle-earth diseases, cured of any current infectious diseases, and know Westron fluently with decent Sindarin. Command is shared by IXJac and Painrack, as they actually have some military experience.

The objective: Neutralize Saruman's forces, and distract the forces of Mordor long enough for the Fellowship to sneak in. Any who completes this operation will recieve a doubled life expectancy (triple for the commanders), treasure, and the ability to return home if you desire.

What do you bring, and how well do we do?

[haas mark]

I'm also going to say that I'm good with linguistics (another reason for a diplomat). I pick up on math and science just as quickly, and I would prefer chemistry to any sort of biology. I haven't gone through the whole thing, and so am probably going to be asking some stupid questions.. But it's a long thread, you understand, right?

A couple of questions, though:

1. How much time to prepare? I mean, are we on this earth before going to Middle Earth? If so, how long do we have to prepare on our Earth?
2. I may have missed it, but what sort of things would deal with hand-to-hand combat?
3. If/when machinery breaks down/is impractical, when would it be practical to use transportation such as horses for ground cover?

Hope I don't bug too much with my questions, but I'm actually learning a lot about miltary stuff in this thread alone.

~ver.

[Rob Wilson]

I see your point, but the problem is, do you think most of our people here will be able to hit a target that is 300 or 400 meters away with iron sights?
I for one get serious problems above 200-250 meters (but then again I've never had military training nor do I have regular access to modern battle rifles since I don't have a license.)

That's why we have Myself and others to train yo, and why we use those best suited to th role as fighters. We use selected Locals as our Militia and they will hit their targets.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

What knobhead came to that brilliant bit of stratgic positioning?

The guy who invented this concept. Phong copied it without that part. People were wondering where we would start. I figured we wouldn't get to choose where our own base would be - That'd be too easy - So I looked for the original SB thread and found that location.

Well we can do sooooo much so far from all the action, and with so few assets to project our power effectively. Which SB military genius came up with this? And I've noticed a lot of threads at th begiingin were concerned with where to place our base for maximum effectivness. If SB want to be all the way over there, let them, however lets have the people with the brains in the best plac to use them.

Well, I still think a careful agro-military policy and a buildup based around projection of power through a large 18th century-type military force supported by a navy would be ideal. By the time Saruman is able to respond, we'll have the strength to defeat him while on the defensive. After that, Sauron himself will be facing force projection to take us on while going pretty far beyond Gondor, which is not yet subdued.

I understand the concern about proliferation, but I seriously think it is not a concern. The Ottoman Empire, for example, possessed equal military technology to the west for several centuries, but was never able to capitalize upon it, as evidenced by the failure of the second siege of Vienna and the rollback of their Balkans territories in the 17th century. It was a matter of troop discipline. At least in the books, anyway, which is what I assume we're going on, absolutely none of Sauron's troops are more than an undisciplined rabble of barbarians, or an eastern despot's mass levies.

Even if they are able to copy and create primitive firearms (which would probably be limited to arquebuses at first, at the very best), Sauron would still not have the realistic ability to instill western military discipline into his troops, and we would still have a technological advantage, even among our auxiliaries - We could have Chassepots for some, and fusils for the rest - Whilst I don't think the design of a flintlock would be easily replicated by Sauron and put into mass production in the period allowed, based on spy reports only (an Arquebus is another story).

It would and will always be discipline that carries the day, and the number of disciplined soldiers we can field in the middle earth is far more important than our technological advantage IMO. When combined with our core technological advantage, which obviously Sauron cannot replicate in the time available or perhaps at all, a cautious strategy of building alliances, allowing our good intentions to be decisively proven, and building the maximum strength of a highly trained and maximumed sized force, seems quite reasonable.


P.S. Is it settled in favour of a 7.62mm NATO rifle, then, at least?

[Enforcer Talen]

Okay, I slugged through the first 10 pages (soemwhat) and noticed something on Diplomacy.. negotiations. I may not be too good at many war/battle-related things, but I know I'm antisocialist, and insane, enough to do negotiations. I've played Diplomacy for a couple of years now, and it's all about negotiations... ie, lying, cheating, deceit, the whole nine yards. Something I can claim to be somewhat good at.

I'll work with you there ; ). Ive been playign games like diplomacy for years, and have gotten rather good at it. I nominate us for ambassadors. ^_^

and hell, just shoot saruman when we arrive. how many people visit him? who's going to know it was us who did it?

[haas mark]

Okay, I slugged through the first 10 pages (soemwhat) and noticed something on Diplomacy.. negotiations. I may not be too good at many war/battle-related things, but I know I'm antisocialist, and insane, enough to do negotiations. I've played Diplomacy for a couple of years now, and it's all about negotiations... ie, lying, cheating, deceit, the whole nine yards. Something I can claim to be somewhat good at.

I'll work with you there ; ). Ive been playign games like diplomacy for years, and have gotten rather good at it. I nominate us for ambassadors. ^_^

and hell, just shoot saruman when we arrive. how many people visit him? who's going to know it was us who did it?

In that case, we lie our way out of it, should we get caught. And as for knowing who did it, would Sauron know? Does he keep tabs on everyone?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'm also going to say that I'm good with linguistics (another reason for a diplomat). I pick up on math and science just as quickly, and I would prefer chemistry to any sort of biology. I haven't gone through the whole thing, and so am probably going to be asking some stupid questions.. But it's a long thread, you understand, right?

A couple of questions, though:

1. How much time to prepare? I mean, are we on this earth before going to Middle Earth? If so, how long do we have to prepare on our Earth?
2. I may have missed it, but what sort of things would deal with hand-to-hand combat?
3. If/when machinery breaks down/is impractical, when would it be practical to use transportation such as horses for ground cover?

Hope I don't bug too much with my questions, but I'm actually learning a lot about miltary stuff in this thread alone.

~ver.

1. No prep time here. Just there. We get a year before the big stuff starts to happen.
2. Bayonets and brass butt plates. Sabres for officers and cav people. Knives for emergencies.
3. Yes. We'll need to acquire horses rather soonly on, methinks.

[haas mark]

1. No prep time here. Just there. We get a year before the big stuff starts to happen.

Okay.

2. Bayonets and brass butt plates. Sabres for officers and cav people. Knives for emergencies.

All right, but what about possibly having options such as archers?

3. Yes. We'll need to acquire horses rather soonly on, methinks.

Okies.

~ver.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I'll work with you there ; ). Ive been playign games like diplomacy for years, and have gotten rather good at it. I nominate us for ambassadors. ^_^

and hell, just shoot saruman when we arrive. how many people visit him? who's going to know it was us who did it?

For diplomacy we may actually want our military guys, like jegs. In fact, I'd nominate him already if he can ride a horse. This is largely because the rulers in the Middle Earth are horse cavalry warriors - You'd be conducting diplomacy with a military ruling caste. The best people to do that are those who at least understand a little of what they think. Anyone who's go through one of the military officer academies would be a great choice, as well, since they're heirs of the same lineage (officers being "gentlemen" and all that in a literal sense, once!).

[Rob Wilson]

What knobhead came to that brilliant bit of stratgic positioning?

The guy who invented this concept. Phong copied it without that part. People were wondering where we would start. I figured we wouldn't get to choose where our own base would be - That'd be too easy - So I looked for the original SB thread and found that location.

Well as far as I can see, on this board, the location is open to choice. The head of the Isen is useless.

Well, I still think a careful agro-military policy and a buildup based around projection of power through a large 18th century-type military force supported by a navy would be ideal. By the time Saruman is able to respond, we'll have the strength to defeat him while on the defensive. After that, Sauron himself will be facing force projection to take us on while going pretty far beyond Gondor, which is not yet subdued.

And the thousands of people we wouldneed just for the military come from...?

At best in 18 years we could set-up a town with an infrasctructure to support a decent militia that can slaughter them from a fixed base with the wepaons we have (remember we have to temt these people to come to us). Unless you favour simply taking over Gondor (which would result in a civil war I don't doubt) we can't amass the forces we need for your plans to work.

As to proliferation, I'd be more worried about them being able to copy muskets, than copy our firearms. Better a smallish, well-armed and selected Militia than large unit we don't have the mapower to stock or supply in the field.

P.S. Is it settled in favour of a 7.62mm NATO rifle, then, at least?

I would hope so, but you never know. I favour the ability to start killing them at range, so that they are broken long before they get close. We still have non-military dissenters though.

[haas mark]

I'll work with you there ; ). Ive been playign games like diplomacy for years, and have gotten rather good at it. I nominate us for ambassadors. ^_^

and hell, just shoot saruman when we arrive. how many people visit him? who's going to know it was us who did it?

For diplomacy we may actually want our military guys, like jegs. In fact, I'd nominate him already if he can ride a horse. This is largely because the rulers in the Middle Earth are horse cavalry warriors - You'd be conducting diplomacy with a military ruling caste. The best people to do that are those who at least understand a little of what they think. Anyone who's go through one of the military officer academies would be a great choice, as well, since they're heirs of the same lineage (officers being "gentlemen" and all that in a literal sense, once!).

In that case, you may need a translator, depending on where one would go, correct? I dunno.. have only read the first book to begin with.

[Rob Wilson]

I'll work with you there ; ). Ive been playign games like diplomacy for years, and have gotten rather good at it. I nominate us for ambassadors. ^_^

and hell, just shoot saruman when we arrive. how many people visit him? who's going to know it was us who did it?

For diplomacy we may actually want our military guys, like jegs. In fact, I'd nominate him already if he can ride a horse. This is largely because the rulers in the Middle Earth are horse cavalry warriors - You'd be conducting diplomacy with a military ruling caste. The best people to do that are those who at least understand a little of what they think. Anyone who's go through one of the military officer academies would be a great choice, as well, since they're heirs of the same lineage (officers being "gentlemen" and all that in a literal sense, once!).

Maybe as the Spokesperson, but I would want as many business canny advisors for him as possible, plus I'd prefer him to head our Recce and Intel effort.

[Rob Wilson]

What knobhead came to that brilliant bit of stratgic positioning?

The guy who invented this concept. Phong copied it without that part.

Always knew Phong was Intelligent.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

All right, but what about possibly having options such as archers?


~ver.

That isn't hand-to-hand. Our weapons will be superiour to most likely anything out there, even an elven archer. Semi-automatic and the ranges that have been reached on iron sights combine from some very impressive possibilities.

That isn't to say, however, that if some elves showed up and volunteered we wouldn't take them - Their archery is incredibly good and combined with incredibly good eyesight and means more firepower without needing to make more breachloaders.

The first gun to match the ROF and range of an English Longbow was a Martini-Henry Rifle of the 1870s; the Chassepot would do at least as good if not better, and with less hitting power (the Martini-Henry was a nasty piece on the shoulder from recoil, though) - Still, elvish archery is also better than an English longbowman.

OTOH, they're not exactly plentiful, which makes them even more inefficient than English Longbowmen. Pre-trained they're nice, however.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Always knew Phong was Intelligent.

I was just trying to be fastidious. Anyway, would you expect the guys back at the War Office to put a base you were assigned to in real life in the right place, either? See! Makes perfect sense to have to deal with it being there. Though I'm sure that just like any planner back home our friend at SBs thinks he made a brilliant placement decision.... Hrmm. Do you think that's where home-assigned staff pukes come from?

[haas mark]

Okay, then. Like I said, though, I did miss a lot of it because I'm just skimming, and I am learning.

But may I ask, given the experience of many here, would archers be more practical in any instance? I know that it is more difficult to shoot someone with a gun that is coming toward you.. does the same hold true for a bow and arrow? Or is it more difficult?

~ver.

[Rob Wilson]

Ok there's a lot of Idea's getting thrown around (including from myself) but we need to settle somethings here before continuing.

1. Location. The Head of the Isen is the worst place in the West for us, we need a location from which we can act if neccesary, and fight from when required.

2. Our Role. What are we on ME to do?
A) Are we there to destroy the One Ring and make th FOTR redundant?
B) Are we there to Provide Support to the quest by focusing Saruman's forces on us?
C) Are we to provide support by Aiding in the defence of Gondor?
D) Do we Provide support by remotely aiding the FOTR "off-screen" as it were, with small scout parties?
E) B,C, & D?

3. A plan to implement that role. How do we plan to do any of this? From there we can get down to the real nitty gritty.

Settling the first 2 points shouldn't take more than a few posts to get real contenders (Mines for a location in the Gap Of Rohan as per my first post in the thread on Page 22), and as to the role, well I'm working from E). Hopefully we can get this sorted so the real fun can be made.

[Rob Wilson]

Always knew Phong was Intelligent.

I was just trying to be fastidious. Anyway, would you expect the guys back at the War Office to put a base you were assigned to in real life in the right place, either?

I wouldn't get a choice of which bae, But they would tend to put the bases in the right area's to start with. Anyway, we get the choice of where it goes as this is the SD.net thread and location was never specified.

If we start at the Head of the Isen, we lose. we can't put together a large enough force to do anything of consequence, we don't have the supply lines to mount a long firefight, and we are too far away to react to new events our actions cause. We are off every trade route so have no mieral supplies or means to even create a rudimentary spy/info network. We would find it impossible to get enough people to make an army, and we cannot effctively project any real power if needed.

I say we choose where this base is going and we provide a good reason for that selection so it can be settled once and for all. After all Phong modified the premise already and part of that Modification was the removal of a fixed location.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The idea, Rob, is to work with the surrounding governments, using knowledge to improve the crop yields and agricultural productivity of their territory, and hygiene of the peasantry, along with make suggestions to improve the simple local industry - better water wheels and so on. Simple things like this, combined with more extensive improvements in our immediate area, can result in massive crop surpluses, and a noticeable reduction in disease.

Now, since such a thing would be destabilizing to the local power structures, we would work to establish ties with them at the same time, suggesting ways in which they could benefit from these changes themselves, and accomadate the social upheavals to their own advantage - Or at least retain their power at any rate (history books on Europe and making it plain this is inevitable and could be a LOT more painful - Whilst leaving out WWI and afterward - Might be quite useful).

At the same time we could manipulate these two forces with mass propaganda, as it would be relatively easy for us to establish some printing presses. In this ashion we could more easily guide them, distributing fliers and broadsheets and so on and affecting the literate bodies in a fashion as totally impossible before (while broadsheets using a pictoral method could affect the illiterate). This propaganda, of course, would be anti-Saruman and anti-Sauron, the former depending on circumstance.

In this fashion, the people and nobility both made grateful to us, and potentially reforms being implemented; the whole of the region driven to a fervour by propaganda, and with an agricultural surplus to support a very large muster, we could in fact field a napoleonic muster - Technically, our allies would be doing so, but we would be its head and driving force.

[Cpt_Frank]

I see your point, but the problem is, do you think most of our people here will be able to hit a target that is 300 or 400 meters away with iron sights?
I for one get serious problems above 200-250 meters (but then again I've never had military training nor do I have regular access to modern battle rifles since I don't have a license.)

That's why we have Myself and others to train yo, and why we use those best suited to th role as fighters. We use selected Locals as our Militia and they will hit their targets.

I'd say we should have as much of our own people fighting as possible.
With some training I believe almost everyone can be a decent marksman if he's not severly handicaped.

[Rob Wilson]

Okay, then. Like I said, though, I did miss a lot of it because I'm just skimming, and I am learning.

But may I ask, given the experience of many here, would archers be more practical in any instance? I know that it is more difficult to shoot someone with a gun that is coming toward you.. does the same hold true for a bow and arrow? Or is it more difficult?

~ver.

As a foraging force sure. But our rifles have them beat in every other regard. As to shooting a person running towars you, that's the easiest type of shot, it's the zig-zagging bastards that take more skill to hit (and if they are closing the distance, it makes it easier anyway).