Phantom Menace and bad writing

[Crazedwraith]

It shows exactly how and why Obi-Wan ended up teaching Anakin, and how and why he totally fucked it up.

It shows how Obi-Wan ended up training Anakin, but none of the prequels really show us why this was a bad thing. Obi-Wan didn't appear to be incompetent as a master in either AOTC or ROTS so how do we know Qui-Gon would have fared any better?

This may be more subjective but it seemed clear to me that Obi-Wan was being a total condescending jackass to Anakin through out the entirety of AotC. (the whole 'well done my young apprentice' shtick)

As Qui-Gon fairing better, well I can't know obviously, but it seems common sense to me. Obi-Wan was depicted as the hide bound jedi's jedi. And he's still a Padawan in TPM. From there he jump straight to the rank of master and has to train someone fresh out of his own training, on top of that his apprentice isn't even of the convential type. Rather than being his padawan, taken from temple training. Obi-Wan has to start from total scratch.

Qui-Gon would have the advantages of already having Anakin's trust, prior experience in training (with at least Obi-Wan if not prior apprentices) and a less conventional mindset to match Anakin's non-conventional circumstances.

He'd have probably also had the smarts and the confidence in his authority to make sure Palaptine doesn't get his claws into the boy.

[Channel72]

Oh for fuck's sake. Of course, its consequential you stupid fucking imbecile. For exactly the reasons I explained in my post and you have failed to address. It shows exactly how and why Obi-Wan ended up teaching Anakin, and how and why he totally fucked it up. Directly leading to the creation of Darth Vader, the Empire and all the events of the main trilogy.

Wrong; that's what it should have showed. What it actually showed was only the circumstances surrounding Anakin's apprenticeship with Obi-Wan. So again, who gives a shit? Why did we need to see Anakin as an 8-year old? We could have figured out that Anakin was Obi-Wan's apprentice by watching AotC, or even ANH for God's sake. So again, nothing that happened in TPM contributed dramatically to the creation of Darth Vader that wasn't readily apparent from the other two films. (With the exception, I'll grant, of Anakin's attachment to his mother.) So yes, the film was mostly inconsequential. If it was an otherwise great movie I wouldn't be complaining... but it wasn't.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh for fuck's sake. Of course, its consequential you stupid fucking imbecile. For exactly the reasons I explained in my post and you have failed to address. It shows exactly how and why Obi-Wan ended up teaching Anakin, and how and why he totally fucked it up. Directly leading to the creation of Darth Vader, the Empire and all the events of the main trilogy.

Wrong; that's what it should have showed.

Everything I've just stated, is directly inferable from TPM as we saw.

What it actually showed was only the circumstances surrounding Anakin's apprenticeship with Obi-Wan. So again, who gives a shit? Why did we need to see Anakin as an 8-year old? We could have figured out that Anakin was Obi-Wan's apprentice by watching AotC, or even ANH for God's sake.

Again you're an idiot. What ANH or AotC doesn't establish is Why Obi-Wan trains Anakin. (And not because he wants to, its because his late master made him promise) And Why this training was for all intents and purposes the training got botched. (Because of Obi-Wan's inexperience as a master and trainer and that je was trying to train someone straight out of his own training)

[Galvatron]

This may be more subjective but it seemed clear to me that Obi-Wan was being a total condescending jackass to Anakin through out the entirety of AotC. (the whole 'well done my young apprentice' shtick)

By ROTS the two men had overcome their differences and settled into a close friendship. There's no indication that Obi-Wan somehow fucked up Anakin's training when all was said and done.

So unless we have some reason to believe that Qui-Gon would have stymied Palpatine's influence or prevented the death of Shmi, I agree that his death was ultimately inconsequential in both the short and the long term.

[Stofsk]

He'd have probably also had the smarts and the confidence in his authority to make sure Palaptine doesn't get his claws into the boy.

Obi-wan and Anakin had a brotherly bond and were friends as well as master/apprentice. RotS implicitly states that the reason why Anakin fell was because he and Obi-wan were deliberately separated due to Palpatine's manipulation of events.

The implication that Obi-wan was somehow deficient as Anakin's master trainer and friend is not borne by the facts of the movies. He blames himself because of the tragedy involved in the story, but really it wasn't his fault. He couldn't have prevented it because he was half a galaxy away at the time in question, and there was nothing in AotC or RotS that showed Obi-wan failed to train Anakin properly. If anything, the two films show that separating master from apprentice has bad consquences (like Obi-wan not being around to steer Anakin away from slaughtering the Tusken tribe).

[Channel72]

This may be more subjective but it seemed clear to me that Obi-Wan was being a total condescending jackass to Anakin through out the entirety of AotC. (the whole 'well done my young apprentice' shtick)

Yeah right; more like Anakin was a temperamental asshole who resented Obi-Wan's authority for no good reason.

[Crazedwraith]

This may be more subjective but it seemed clear to me that Obi-Wan was being a total condescending jackass to Anakin through out the entirety of AotC. (the whole 'well done my young apprentice' shtick)

By ROTS the two men had overcome their differences and settled into a close friendship, so there's no indication that Obi-Wan somehow fucked up the training.

Other than his apprentice formed un-jedi like attachments under his nose and then fell under dark influence and then, oh did that little thing like spent almost the rest of his life trying to wipe out the Jedi.

The concept of Anakin being poorly trained and that of Anakin and Obi-Wan being friends are not mutually exclusive. Obi-Wan basically gave up and accepted Anakin as he was instead of training him.

So unless we have some reason to believe that Qui-Gon would have stymied Palpatine's influence or prevented the death of Shmi, I agree that his death was ultimately inconsequential in both the short and the long term.

Well done for not addressing any of the points I raised as to why Qui-Gon would have made a better teacher and friend to Anakin.

Edit1:

This may be more subjective but it seemed clear to me that Obi-Wan was being a total condescending jackass to Anakin through out the entirety of AotC. (the whole 'well done my young apprentice' shtick)

Yeah right; more like Anakin was a temperamental asshole who resented Obi-Wan's authority for no good reason.

Its six on one side; half a dozen on the other.

Anakin was temperamental but he also had valid complaints about Obi-Wan. Take the changling chase sequence. In it he saves Obi-Wan's life. Single handedly out flies, out fights and corners Zam and when Obi-Wan catches up all he gets for his work is a scolding about losing his lightsabre.

Edit2:

He'd have probably also had the smarts and the confidence in his authority to make sure Palaptine doesn't get his claws into the boy.

Obi-wan and Anakin had a brotherly bond and were friends as well as master/apprentice. RotS implicitly states that the reason why Anakin fell was because he and Obi-wan were deliberately separated due to Palpatine's manipulation of events.

More like, he failed to instil any sense of duty, honour or higher purpose in Anakin. Why does Anakin fall? Because in the end, he was so obsessed with Padme that he decided that the entire Jedi Order and the Republic and civilisation was less important that his wife to him.

And for bonus points; the danger his wife was in was a self-fulfilling prophecy, If he'd followed the jedi code and paid it no mind. It wouldn't have come true.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Here's some weirdness: the call for no-confidence was called because the chancellor wanted to send a commission to see if the Queen was lying about the invasion.

Why the fuck didn't they just call in the Jedi, whom the chancellor already sent and saw the whole thing - and he talked to them personally when they got back - to testify about the situation?

Palpatine's plan didn't work because it was brilliant, or adapted well to changing situations. It worked only because the writers wanted it to work.

It's worse than that. Even if she didn't have the Jedi to testify, there still was absolutely no need for a No-confidence vote. In fact that entire part of the plot was wholly unnecessary because it had no impact on the events at Naboo. Let's say the Jedi aren't there, and she decides to avoid calling a no-confidence vote, what happens?

Well, she goes back to Naboo with the Chancellor's commission.... which is exactly what ended up happening, minus the commission! In the movie Naboo was won back from the trade-feds with NO help from the republic other than a pair of Jedi acting semi-autonomously. The No Confidence vote did absolutely nothing to help her cause, and actually removed an entirely valid avenue she could have taken to get help with Naboo, at no additional cost because it involved making a trip she was already going to make in the first place!

There is literally no reason why she should have made the no-confidence vote other than the plot dictating she should. She didn't ask for the testimony of the Jedi first, she didn't accept a commission going back to Naboo with her which would have helped immeasurably as it would have provided an immediate official verification of the alleged Trade Fed abuses. Exactly what did the no confidence vote do to help her? Did the newly elected Palpatine send an army to help them? Did he order the Trade feds to stop the blockade? No. Instead she throws the one person offering to help her directly under the bus because... it's the plot.

[Channel72]

And Why this training was for all intents and purposes the training got botched. (Because of Obi-Wan's inexperience as a master and trainer and that je was trying to train someone straight out of his own training)

What the hell are you talking about? Where is it implied that Anakin's fall to the dark-side was a result of Obi-Wan's inexperience? Even if you're right, it only further serves to highlight the horrendous writing here: you're basically saying that the Jedi entrusted the training of young Anakin Skywalker, the prophecy-fulfilling, immaculately-conceived Christ-Jedi, whose future deeply troubled them, to a fucking rookie like Obi-Wan. Unless the Jedi order is unfathomably more incompetent than we already suspected, I would hope that Anakin initially must have had other trainers, such as Yoda. Regardless, there is nothing to suggest in any of the films that Obi-Wan somehow "botched" the training.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

So unless we have some reason to believe that Qui-Gon would have stymied Palpatine's influence or prevented the death of Shmi, I agree that his death was ultimately inconsequential in both the short and the long term.

The death of Shmi is another sticking point, actually. During TPM, it's kind of understandable, only one of them could be taken. But seriously, in the ten or so years between TPM and AotC, NO ONE involved with Anakin even thought about going back to Tattoine and purchasing his mother? At any point during Anakin's training did he ever speak up and go, "Hey, I'd really like to see my mother at some point."

Even if the training involves extended separation from his mother, doesn't anyone involved give enough of a shit to go and purchase her so at least they can put Anakin's mind at ease with a simple, "Oh by the way, your mother's no longer a slave, so you don't have to worry about that at all"? I can understand it not being done at the time of TPM as they're on a time-table, somewhat undercover, and have limited resources. But I have a very hard time believing that Obi-Wan and everyone else who allegedly gave a shit about Anakin never had the time or resources for a quick trip over to Tattoine to free his mommy.

Again it seems like everyone (aside from the moisture farmer who bought her, cared for her and was genuinely torn up that the sand people took her) turned into callous jackasses in regards to Anakin's mom, INCLUDING ANAKIN, until the plot dictates that he go see her die and get torn up over it. Again people are morons because of the necessities of plot.

[Crazedwraith]

And Why this training was for all intents and purposes the training got botched. (Because of Obi-Wan's inexperience as a master and trainer and that je was trying to train someone straight out of his own training)

What the hell are you talking about? Where is it implied that Anakin's fall to the dark-side was a result of Obi-Wan's inexperience? Even if you're right, it only further serves to highlight the horrendous writing here: you're basically saying that the Jedi entrusted the training of young Anakin Skywalker, the prophecy-fulfilling, immaculately-conceived Christ-Jedi, whose future deeply troubled them, to a fucking rookie like Obi-Wan. Unless the Jedi order is unfathomably more incompetent than we already suspected, I would hope that Anakin initially must have had other trainers, such as Yoda. Regardless, there is nothing to suggest in any of the films that Obi-Wan somehow "botched" the training.

He didn't as far as we know. Qui-Gon's last request was that Obi-Wan train him as so Obi-Wan does. Even at the end of TPM it states Obi-Wan will now train Anakin. None of the Council wanted anything to do with it, they were more or less against the whole idea remember? The 'honouring of the last request' however is pretty much a staple of mythic storytelling commonly seen in Star Wars.

And Again, I'm not arguing on the quality of writing. I'm simply disputing that Qui-Gon's death was inconsequential in the movies as shown.

To be fare I should concede my initial statement was overly strong. Obi-Wan's training is a factor in Anakin's downfall and I believe I have shown good reason that it was a large factor but it was obviously not the only factor. The sith lord actively trying to seduce was obviously a major factor as well but the whole training issue left him more vulnerable to that than he might otherwise have been.

[Stofsk]

He'd have probably also had the smarts and the confidence in his authority to make sure Palaptine doesn't get his claws into the boy.

Obi-wan and Anakin had a brotherly bond and were friends as well as master/apprentice. RotS implicitly states that the reason why Anakin fell was because he and Obi-wan were deliberately separated due to Palpatine's manipulation of events.

More like, he failed to instil any sense of duty, honour or higher purpose in Anakin.

That's why he tells Padme in AotC that a Jedi's life is sacrifice for the greater good.

Why does Anakin fall? Because in the end, he was so obsessed with Padme that he decided that the entire Jedi Order and the Republic and civilisation was less important that his wife to him.

No, he fell to the dark side for the reasons I laid out. You didn't bother replying to that, instead posting the above as a 'rebuttal'. The events of RotS and even AotC make it clear that Anakin and Obi-wan work best as a pair. Conversely, whenever Obi-wan is away or incapacitated, Anakin takes one step closer to falling to the dark side - which shows just how influential Obi-wan is to Anakin:

-in AotC, without Obi-wan around, he cannot stop Anakin slaughtering the Tusken tribe.
-in RotS, Dooku knocks Obi-wan out. Anakin draws upon the DS at Palpatine's egging on, and executes Dooku even though he was unarmed and helpless (again due to Palpatine's influence)
-Anakin has so much scorn for Obi-wan as a teacher and hates him so much, that he defies Palpatine and carries his friend and mentor away, who would otherwise have been left behind to die if Palpatine had had his way.
-Despite being made a member of the Jedi Council, only Obi-wan really supports Anakin. The rest of the council are uneasy, and Mace Windu is downright hostile at Anakin.
-Anakin and Obi-wan are separated by Palpatine's machinations. With his principle Jimminy Cricket influence absent, Palpatine can now move in.

Note that the novelisation outright states this, while the movie 'merely' implies it.

And for bonus points; the danger his wife was in was a self-fulfilling prophecy, If he'd followed the jedi code and paid it no mind. It wouldn't have come true.

How the hell can you say that from his perspective? In AotC he has prophetic dreams of his mother's death. Those dreams come true. Then in RotS, the woman he loves and the mother of his unborn children is seen to be dying in similar dreams; he ignored those dreams before until it was too late to save his mother. He had no way of knowing his actions would ultimately lead to Padme dying by his own hand, but his motivations are completely believable. That's the whole point of the tragedy in RotS's story.

[Anguirus]

Meh, the movie should be able to stand alone too. But even conceding that, he serves no more purpose to the trilogy than the random stormtroopers who shot up Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

Exactly. He's Episode I's Boba Fett. He's a plot device. Why anyone wants his life story is beyond me.

Do note that the revolving door of pre-Vader Sith apprentices is also quite important to the metaplot.

The only thing presented to them was Padme's account, and she is naturally biased. The Jedi sent into negotiate though would be as reliable as anyone could expect out of the Republic, and were there. But, they weren't testifying.

No...they weren't testifying on screen.

It is easy to dismiss Palpatine and Padme as biased and reporting heresay. Maybe the senators from planet greed wouldn't buy a Jedi's account, but surely the majority must.

We see in Attack of the Clones that the Senate relies entirely upon the Jedi to keep the republic together. Should we believe that they trust them to independently deal with all these random situations, including civil war, but not to testify before them?

They didn't even try to have the Jedi tell a story!

I think you misread what was going on in that scene. It's not important for the Jedi to testify (in story terms) because they don't need to convince the Senators. Amidala convinces them in a bloody speech, which meant they were halfway to being sold already.

Valorum's malicious advisors tied him down in legalities and convinced him to kowtow to the Trade Federation. As far as the other Senators were concerned, he could suck shit for doing that. That's why they immediately strip him of his position for being a spineless fool.

Remember that the whole point of what Palpatine is doing, aside from putting himself in charge, is to set off the spark that initiates a full-on populist war against the Trade Federation and the other future Seperatists. Watching Valorum bow and scrape in front of the Neimoidians (again, because Palpatine's catspaw convinced him to do so) cost him his position.

The governor dude, right? Of course he is agitated, he's being told his people are starving and he's going to be killed too if he doesn't comply, and his queen is of course fleeing capture, with him not knowing what happened to her. From his perspective, he has plenty to worry about, if the stories are true or not.

So your thesis is that the governor dude knows less about the situation than a member of the audience? Despite the fact that he's on the ground, and quite probably in a camp himself?

Remember that the governor, the queen, and everyone else were on their way to "Camp 4."

Really, they could have showed just about anything to back up those words and it would have been better.

Sure. I agree with many of your stylistic points. However, I think that's just the way Lucas does things in the Star Wars universe. The destruction of Alderaan was positively antiseptic.

For alleged mass murder?

Considering that it's more power than exists in our entire solar system, yeah, it's a pretty big deal. Clearly, putting him on trial for murder right there would have been the thing to do, but it's strongly implied that this is politically untenable.

Remember that the Republic itself does not have a fleet at this point. It's be like the Hague trying to have George W. Bush shot.



As far as the greater general point of most of TPM being somewhat of an irrelevant shaggy-dog story, I completely agree. The handling of the Anakin character was criminal (no offense to Jake Lloyd) and 45 minutes of main plot was stretched into that whole long movie by an interminable Tatooine segment (the Coruscant stuff is zippy by comparison). What I'm objecting to is the use of nitpicks and a seeming refusal to comprehend many of the plot elements that are presented in a non-spoon-feeding manner to present a seemingly serious critique of a movie that had a seriously flawed structure and an excruciatingly juvenile sense of humor.

Episode I works as a film, just not as a particularly good film. It is not, however, ridden with plot holes and it does confidently introduce story elements that pay off later in a big way. George Lucas is many things, including a bit clumsy, but he's not an idiot and he does avoid getting bogged down in irrelevant trivia.

The single BIGGEST problem with Episode I is an almost complete failure to reconcile its two BIG plotlines until the very, very end. Anakin is either dominating the story or he has nothing to do. Obi-Wan, too, flits in and out of the film with abandon. And in a situation like that...I know I'm flogging a dead horse...the last thing you do is devote long stretches of film to Mr. JJB.

[Anguirus]

Again it seems like everyone (aside from the moisture farmer who bought her, cared for her and was genuinely torn up that the sand people took her) turned into callous jackasses in regards to Anakin's mom, INCLUDING ANAKIN, until the plot dictates that he go see her die and get torn up over it. Again people are morons because of the necessities of plot.

I agree. AotC had the clumsiest plot elements of all. Remember how the "Jedi cannot love" thing came out of NOWHERE? Suddenly the Jedi obsession with avoiding attachment became magnified so that the only point was to place restrictions on everything that Anakin tried to do.

I enjoy parts of AotC but overall it's the weakest of the saga. The other gaping, yawning, bleeding plothole is why the Jedi aren't concerned by the obvious connection between the two armies (Jango Fett). Instead, it seems that they gamely leap into the Clone Wars without any real cognizance of how they got played.

[Galvatron]

Meh, the movie should be able to stand alone too. But even conceding that, he serves no more purpose to the trilogy than the random stormtroopers who shot up Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

Exactly. He's Episode I's Boba Fett. He's a plot device. Why anyone wants his life story is beyond me.

Do note that the revolving door of pre-Vader Sith apprentices is also quite important to the metaplot.

Boba Fett had more lines and did less fighting; and at least Fett had a clear motive.

One throwaway line about how the Jedi overthrew the Sith (thus connecting the dots and explaining the revenge motive) would not have paralyzed the movie with needless exposition.

[Channel72]

Episode I works as a film, just not as a particularly good film. It is not, however, ridden with plot holes and it does confidently introduce story elements that pay off later in a big way. George Lucas is many things, including a bit clumsy, but he's not an idiot and he does avoid getting bogged down in irrelevant trivia.

I'm extremely critical of Phantom Menace and the Prequels in general, but it's obvious that George Lucas is a creative genius with the capacity to tell an excellent story. Since the Prequels came out, it's been fashionable to downplay Lucas's role in the OT, but that line of argumentation can only take you so far.

The single BIGGEST problem with Episode I is an almost complete failure to reconcile its two BIG plotlines until the very, very end. Anakin is either dominating the story or he has nothing to do. Obi-Wan, too, flits in and out of the film with abandon. And in a situation like that...I know I'm flogging a dead horse...the last thing you do is devote long stretches of film to Mr. JJB.

That's a fair analysis. As a stand-alone movie, Episode I has incredible structural problems, but as an entry in the wider saga, I would say the biggest problem with Phantom Menace is that it exists in the first place. The core of the Prequel Trilogy was the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker, and yet for all intents and purposes Anakin is not even in Phantom Menace. Instead, the circumstances surrounding his seduction and fall are mostly compressed into the last act of the third movie. We barely even know him as a character, or see his relationship with Obi-Wan come to fruition until RotS. In light of that, making an inconsequential movie like Phantom Menace seems like a terrible waste.

The other gaping, yawning, bleeding plothole is why the Jedi aren't concerned by the obvious connection between the two armies (Jango Fett).

I'm sure RedLetterMedia will have a field day with that in the AotC review.

[Channel72]

Valorum's malicious advisors tied him down in legalities and convinced him to kowtow to the Trade Federation. As far as the other Senators were concerned, he could suck shit for doing that. That's why they immediately strip him of his position for being a spineless fool.

Again, I'm compelled to ask - how do you know any of this? The movie never depicts Valorum as under the influence of the Trade Federation; it merely depicts him as somewhat indecisive and unpopular. In fact, his request to send a commission to Naboo is not even really that unreasonable. I find it hilarious that everytime someone tries to explain plot or character motivations in Phantom Menace, they have to resort to hypothesizing about things that happen off-screen. Do you honestly not see how that's a problem in a medium like film?

Remember that the whole point of what Palpatine is doing, aside from putting himself in charge, is to set off the spark that initiates a full-on populist war against the Trade Federation and the other future Seperatists. Watching Valorum bow and scrape in front of the Neimoidians (again, because Palpatine's catspaw convinced him to do so) cost him his position.

What a surprise: more guessing and filling in blanks about off-screen events. In reality, none of the movies ever even explain why the Separatists want to break away from the Republic. There is nothing mentioned about some kind of anti-corporate populist-movement. All we know is what it says in the opening crawl of AotC: "There is unrest in the Galactic Senate. Several hundred solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic."

[Anguirus]

^ This is my problem with the TPM criticism in this thread in a nutshell...it's really, really, really stupid.

Again, I'm compelled to ask - how do you know any of this? The movie never depicts Valorum as under the influence of the Trade Federation; it merely depicts him as somewhat indecisive. In fact, his request to send a commission to Naboo is not even really that unreasonable. I find it hilarious that everytime someone tries to explain plot or character motivations in Phantom Menace, they have to resort to hypothesizing about things that happen off-screen. Do you honestly not see how that's a problem in a medium like film?

I'm not inferring anything, I'm describing the scene!

Valorum caves after ONE SENATOR speaks against Amidala, ONE SENATOR backs up the first guy, and then his advisors whisper in his ear. Then, Amidala gives a slightly angry speech, and THE ENTIRE CHAMBER TURNS ON VALORUM.

It's a problem to criticize any piece of film that you are apparently too dim to comprehend. The politics of TPM might as well be a bunch of poo-flinging monkeys for all their complexity...so why don't people get it? Eleven years ago I was, well, 11, and I got it just fine.

What a surprise: more guessing and filling in blanks about off-screen events. In reality, none of the movies ever even explain why the Separatists want to break away from the Republic. There is nothing mentioned about some kind of anti-corporate populist-movement. All we know is what it says in the opening crawl of AotC: "There is unrest in the Galactic Senate. Several hundred solar systems have declared their intentions to leave the Republic."

What filling in blanks? The Trade Federation is the corporation, and some random fucking yahoo gets himself elected CHANCELLOR OF THE GALAXY by telling them to eat a dick.

What part of VOTE NOW! VOTE NOW! is too subtle for you idiots? And then in Episode II, the interstellar equivalents of General Electric, Standard Oil, etc are SECEDING FROM THE GALAXY because the chancellor who was elected on a wave of populist tax-the-corporations backlash is riding them so hard.

[Galvatron]

And then in Episode II, the interstellar equivalents of General Electric, Standard Oil, etc are SECEDING FROM THE GALAXY because the chancellor who was elected on a wave of populist tax-the-corporations backlash is riding them so hard.

Wait, I thought Palpatine opposed the taxation.

"A tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

[Anguirus]

And then in Episode II, the interstellar equivalents of General Electric, Standard Oil, etc are SECEDING FROM THE GALAXY because the chancellor who was elected on a wave of populist tax-the-corporations backlash is riding them so hard.

Wait, I thought Palpatine opposed the taxation.

"A tragedy has occurred which started right here with the taxation of trade routes and has now engulfed our entire planet in the oppression of the Trade Federation."

Hmm. I'll grant you that that's pretty ambiguous phrasing. However, the TF blockaded Naboo over the taxation issue. The only other alternative is that they are collecting the taxes, some law was passed that prevents them from doing so in Naboo's sector, and so they are blockading it to make sure there isn't any trade without their cut.

In either case, we clearly get elements of the Senate putting the squeeze on the corporations.

I don't so much want his life story as just see him as being a waste of screen time; I'd be happy if he was just excised entirely.

Qui-Gon can die of a heart attack I guess? Yes, by all means, let's excise visually interesting elements from Star Wars and see what's left.

What about convincing Valorum? He's a supporter of her, but a guy calling them liars and another guy whispering something about a commission is enough to make him back off?

It is one thing to have a spineless fool as a character, but this just goes too far for me to believe.

You've clearly never met a politician.

It's hard for you to believe that a guy would waffle on military action when powerful corporate interests are pressuring him?

It's also possible that Valorum was employing double-talk when he met Amidala before. It's not like he swore in the name of Krypton to protect her interests.

Which tells me that if the Jedi were there to back her up, the situation would have probably been resolved right there and then.

The situation was resolved right then and there, you twit.

Your entire point rests on the dubious notion that Jedi testimony was not accepted because Lucas didn't waste time shooting more Liam Neeson against a green screen for the benefit of the slow kids in the audience. The Jedi do not have the ability to magick away the pressure on Valorum.

And what was the point of what Amidala was doing? If she was looking to convince the Senate to help Naboo, having the Jedi testify about the situation comes to mind as a solution well before the no-confidence vote. As she said when they were discussing it previously, Valorum was one of her best supporters! The bad guy there was the senator calling her a liar, not the chancellor proposing a shitty solution.

That she was following Palpatine's advice because she's a stupid kid is the best explanation I have.

1) Jedi testimony was certainly available to the Senate.
2) Amidala is a stupid kid, she's fourteen fucking years old and she's being advised by the fucking Dark Lord of the Sith. Welcome to 1999, congrats, you figured out the plot. Palpatine told her that the chancellor would wuss out of helping her and that the best and fastest way to get help to Naboo was to fuck him once he fucked her.

I guess I know how she feels, since Harry Reid and Barack Obama kinda do the same thing. But she had the option of arguing it right there and then and failed to even try. (On screen anyway.)

It comes back to that she's 14 and feeling the responsibility of an invaded planet on her shoulders. There may well have been other political options available to her in a sensible universe. However, in story terms, Palpatine's machinations (he is manipulating the Trade Federation, the Chancellor's advisers, AND Amidala, and who fucking KNOWS how many mind-tricks he's pulling at any given time) are well within reason to create the situation he wants. It is the screenwriter's, director's, and editor's job to sell it concisely. In my opinion they did a more than adequate job. The supposition that the whole thing would have been resolved perfectly if Qui-Gon hadn't been fucking around at the temple is eye-searingly ridiculous and predicates that the entire Republic is run not by morons (which may well be the case) but by uneducated children.

This might be a bigger problem... what, exactly, did Amidala expect them to do for her anyway? I suppose a part of the backstory is that the republic is impotent, but how does that come together with her urgency to see them?

Send in the Jedi, presumably. The Trade Feds would have bent over the presence of two if not for Sidious, who nobody knows about.

If Palpatine's plan had gone off without the Player Characters sailing back to Naboo and fighting over it, then he probably would have showed up with a token fleet contributed by member-states and bringing a bunch of Jedi with him. Then, as Sidious, he TELLS Gunray to cave. Then, just as we hear in AotC, he as Palpatine rakes Gunray over the legal coals but carefully avoids actually stripping him of his power, so his anger and paranoia form the kernel of the Seperatist movement.

[Channel72]

It comes back to that she's 14 and feeling the responsibility of an invaded planet on her shoulders. There may well have been other political options available to her in a sensible universe. However, in story terms, Palpatine's machinations (he is manipulating the Trade Federation, the Chancellor's advisers, AND Amidala, and who fucking KNOWS how many mind-tricks he's pulling at any given time) are well within reason to create the situation he wants. It is the screenwriter's, director's, and editor's job to sell it concisely. In my opinion they did a more than adequate job. The supposition that the whole thing would have been resolved perfectly if Qui-Gon hadn't been fucking around at the temple is eye-searingly ridiculous and predicates that the entire Republic is run not by morons (which may well be the case) but by uneducated children.

The point is that the whole affair is poorly written. You seem to think TPM includes some kind of clear, compelling, politically relevant story about corrupt politicians and corporate influence. Sure, that's probably what Lucas was going for here, but the way it actually comes off on-screen is just a mess.

Firstly, Valorum isn't exactly portrayed as the bought-and-sold corporate politician you seem to think he is; regardless of how much the Trade Federation was pressuring him, what we actually see on screen is only this: Amidala claims there was an invasion, and then the Trade Federation denies it. Since Valorum has two conflicting claims from Senators of equal standing, what the fuck is he supposed to do? Proposing to send a commission to verify what Amidala is saying isn't so unreasonable, and it doesn't indicate to me that Valorum is bought and sold by corporate interests.

Secondly, you still haven't provided any satisfactory answer to the question "why weren't the Jedi called to testify", other than to hint that it happened off-screen. If it happened off-screen that's even worse, because whether the Jedi testified matters to the story; presumably, if they testified there wouldn't necessarily be a need for a no-confidence vote. If Amidala's sob-story was enough to convince the Senate to boot out Valorum, then the Jedi testimony should work in her favor as well.

Thirdly, as Oni Koneko Damien explained, Amidala's vote of no-confidence comes off as contrived. She basically had 2 options: A) return to Naboo with Valorum's commission to verify the atrocties, or B) return to Naboo herself and... do what exactly? She chose option B for no real reason, and returned to Naboo with no plan. The no-confidence-vote really didn't help her in any way. Obviously I realize she was manipulated into calling for the vote, but it's still pointless in terms of storytelling.

Fourthly, there's no fucking urgency to any of this. The movie seemingly wants us to believe that as every second goes by, more people on Naboo are dying. But we never see anything remotely like that actually happening. For all we know Amidala could have stayed on Coruscant for 2 months while they debated endlessly, with no real consequences.

Finally, for all intents and purpose, the entire final-act is pointless. At this point in the movie, Palpatine already has what he wants, so the ultimate outcome of the Naboo invasion is meaningless. So basically we have to sit and watch an inconsequential series of action sequences, none of which matter in the long run or really have any effect on the saga as a whole. You could argue, as Crazedwraith did earlier, that QuiGon's death had some meaning since it led to Anakin's apprenticeship under Obi-Wan, but even if I grant that, it's not enough to justify the utter inconsequentiality of the final act.

[Dooey Jo]

I'd just like to point out that Anakin slaughtering the Tusken raiders was a pretty big failure on the part of Obi-Wan. He shouldn't have to be there every time Anakin gets angry, to tell him he shouldn't murder a village. Anakin is incapable of controlling his feelings, which seems to be basic Jedi training, so there's obviously something that has gone wrong here. Anakin himself recognises this, but apparently, he didn't trust Obi-Wan enough to even tell him about the whole thing and instead went to Palpatine, so Obi-Wan didn't even know how messed up he really was.

As for why no-one freed Shmi: Yoda and the Jedi Order are clearly very into the "no attachments" idea and surely felt the best course of action would be to train Anakin to let go of his mother, which obviously backfired. And again when they advised him to let go of Padmé. One of the points of the prequels seems to be that the Jedi Order has become so inflexible and buried in formalities, they forgot about the whole "compassion" thing. It's my understanding that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda as a child, and the things he was taught would by then come so natural to him that he might not have a good idea of how to properly pass such information on to an adolescent. Anakin's trust issues with Obi-Wan and the Order could also probably be traced back to them telling him to let go of his mother whenever he missed her.

Maybe this isn't clearly spelled out in the films (though I would argue otherwise), but it seems to me that Lucas wanted to focus on how Anakin fell to the Dark Side, rather than explicitly why Obi-Wan failed.

[Anguirus]

The point is that the whole affair is poorly written.

That's not your point at all. Your point is that you are less able to comprehend the plot than I was at age eleven. I cannot agree with your thesis that TPM needed to be either a more politically complex or a dumber movie.

Firstly, Valorum isn't exactly portrayed as the bought-and-sold corporate politician you seem to think he is

This is a transparent strawman. The point is what Amidala has been led to believe he is by Palpatine.

regardless of how much the Trade Federation was pressuring him, what we actually see on screen is only this: Amidala claims there was an invasion, and then the Trade Federation denies it. Since Valorum has two conflicting claims from Senators of equal standing, what the fuck is he supposed to do? Proposing to send a commission to verify what Amidala is saying isn't so unreasonable, and it doesn't indicate to me that Valorum is bought and sold by corporate interests.

This is a total red herring. It doesn't actually matter what Valorum's intentions were or how reasonable he was, the point is that he appeared to cave. In fact, the real point is that Palpatine fucked everyone in the ass without them knowing it, but this seems perpetually lost on you.

Did it really not occur to you that the advice Palpatine gave to Amidala, and the advice that he HAD his proxy give to Valorum, was not, in fact, in those two party's respective interests?

Secondly, you still haven't provided any satisfactory answer to the question "why weren't the Jedi called to testify", other than to hint that it happened off-screen. If it happened off-screen that's even worse, because whether the Jedi testified matters to the story; presumably, if they testified there wouldn't necessarily be a need for a no-confidence vote. If Amidala's sob-story was enough to convince the Senate to boot out Valorum, then the Jedi testimony should work in her favor as well.

What in the fuck is your obsession with this? You state, in the section that I've just quoted, right above you, that if the Jedi testimony that you claim to be absent was in fact present would have resulted in the same fucking thing happening!

There is NOTHING that indicates that a few seconds of Liam Neeson blathering to the audience would have convinced the TRADE FEDERATION SENATOR not to do the same exact fucking thing that he did. Then Mas Amedda, Palpatine's personal pet, would have told Valorum the same thing, and Amidala, who has been counseled by Palpatine, does the same exact fucking thing.

Your interest in Valorum's political fortunes is frankly tiresome. He's about as important to the movie as everyone's favorite punching bag, Darth Maul.

Thirdly, as Oni Koneko Damien explained, Amidala's vote of no-confidence comes off as contrived. She basically had 2 options: A) return to Naboo with Valorum's commission to verify the atrocties, or B) return to Naboo herself and... do what exactly? She chose option B for no real reason, and returned to Naboo with no plan. The no-confidence-vote really didn't help her in any way. Obviously I realize she was manipulated into calling for the vote, but it's still pointless in terms of storytelling.

The story that's actually being told is of Palpatine's rise to power, in the context of the saga, so I hope you understand how ridiculous the bolded part is.

It is a CONSTANT motif of the films that the bureaucracy of the Republic is very difficult at getting anything done in a timely fashion. Valorum's commission was not going to HAPPEN anytime soon.

Fourthly, there's no fucking urgency to any of this. The movie seemingly wants us to believe that as every second goes by, more people on Naboo are dying. But we never see anything remotely like that actually happening. For all we know Amidala could have stayed on Coruscant for 2 months while they debated endlessly, with no real consequences.

Fine. I agree that the movie isn't quite urgent enough. However, Amidala's words and actions provide her with the motivation to fuck over Valorum and fly back home that you claim makes no sense.

Finally, for all intents and purpose, the entire final-act is pointless. At this point in the movie, Palpatine already has what he wants, so the ultimate outcome of the Naboo invasion is meaningless. So basically we have to sit and watch an inconsequential series of action sequences, none of which matter in the long run or really have any effect on the saga as a whole. You could argue, as Crazedwraith did earlier, that QuiGon's death had some meaning since it led to Anakin's apprenticeship under Obi-Wan, but even if I grant that, it's not enough to justify the utter inconsequentiality of the final act.

Look up "Xanatos Gambit" on TVTropes and get back to me. Oh, and consider who would fucking watch Star Wars if, as the masses in this thread demad, all "gratuitous" visually interesting elements and battle scenes are excised.

[Darth Hoth]

As for why no-one freed Shmi: Yoda and the Jedi Order are clearly very into the "no attachments" idea and surely felt the best course of action would be to train Anakin to let go of his mother, which obviously backfired. And again when they advised him to let go of Padmé. One of the points of the prequels seems to be that the Jedi Order has become so inflexible and buried in formalities, they forgot about the whole "compassion" thing. It's my understanding that Obi-Wan was trained by Yoda as a child, and the things he was taught would by then come so natural to him that he might not have a good idea of how to properly pass such information on to an adolescent. Anakin's trust issues with Obi-Wan and the Order could also probably be traced back to them telling him to let go of his mother whenever he missed her.

This is my belief also, and the best explanation I can find for their inaction with regards to her. For those to whom it matters, this is also what the EU suggests; the Jedi phobia for attachment is even more clearly spelled out there, where it is explicitly stated that the Jedi forbid any contact whatever between parent and conscripted child.

[Darth Yan]

hoth for the love of crap please stop referring to all children as "conscripted." Other then that I agree with you.