Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Hat tip to Tucker in the Chat for bring this to our attention.


http://www.chicoer.com/news/ci_14388171
DA links fundamentalist "training" to Paradise girl's death
By TERRY VAU DELL - Staff Writer
Posted: 02/12/2010 12:50:43 AM PST

OROVILLE -- A fundamentalist religious philosophy that espouses corporal punishment to "train" children to be more obedient to their parents and God is now being investigated in connection with the death of a young Paradise girl and serious injuries to her sister.

Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey confirmed Thursday that other children in the home who have been interviewed told investigators "this philosophy was espoused by their parents."

Ramsey said he is also exploring a possible connection to a Web site that endorses "biblical discipline" using the same rubber or plastic tube alleged to have been used to whip the two young ridge girls by their adoptive parents.

In court Thursday, a judge granted a two-week postponement before the children's parents, Kevin Schatz, 46, and Elizabeth Schatz, 42, enter a plea to murder and torture charges that could carry two life terms in prison.

The delay will allow the mother to retain legal counsel as her husband did earlier.

The father's attorney, Michael Harvey, declined to comment regarding the specific allegations against the couple until he has a chance to review the evidence.

"All I can say is the family is shocked; they are grieving the loss of their daughter and (ask) that people of faith will pray for everybody involved," the defense attorney stated outside of court Thursday.

The Schatzes were arrested Saturday morning after their adopted daughter, Lydia, age 7, stopped breathing. She was subsequently
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pronounced dead.

Her 11-year-old sister, Zariah Schatz, remains in critical condition at a Sacramento children's hospital, though she is showing some signs of recovery. The two were adopted at the same time with an infant girl, now 3, from the same African orphanage about three years ago,

Prosecutors allege the two victims were subjected to "hours" of corporal punishment by their parents on successive days last Thursday and Friday with a quarter-inch-wide length of rubber or plastic tubing, which police reportedly recovered from the parents' bedroom.

Police allege that the younger girl was being disciplined for mis-pronouncing a word during a home-school reading lesson the day before she died.

The two young girls reportedly sustained deep bruising and multiple "whip-like" marks on their back, buttocks and legs, which authorities believe resulted in significant muscle tissue breakdown that impaired their kidneys and possibly other vital organs, said Ramsey.

He said investigators are researching a possible connection to an Internet Web site set up by "fundamentalist Christian people" that recommends use of the same whip-like implement "as an appropriate tool for biblical chastisement ... to train a child from infancy to make them a happier child and more obedient to God because they are obedient to the will of their parents," said Ramsey.

The district attorney said some of the Schatzes' six biological children, who were removed from the family home for their protection following the parents' arrest, have made statements suggesting the ridge couple shared this philosophy.

The other children in the home said the same rubber or plastic tube was used on all of them "as a standard method of discipline, but certainly not to the extent of these two girls," Ramsey added.

He said it's not clear at this point whether the Schatzes ever visited the Web site in question, which Ramsey stressed "does not endorse hurting or beating a child," nor is connected to any specific church.

From the research he has done, the district attorney pointed out that "even within the fundamentalist Christian community," parental use of corporal punishment "is subject to a great deal of debate."

The ridge couple remain held on $2 million bail pending entry of plea in two weeks to the murder and torture charges.


http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2010/ ... index.html
Godly discipline turned deadly
A controversial child "training" practice comes under fire -- this time from Christians themselves

By Lynn Harris

Feb. 23, 2010 |

Four years ago this month, a 4-year-old boy named Sean Paddock died when his adoptive mother wrapped him in blankets so tightly that he couldn't breathe. His adoptive mother, Lynn Paddock, was later convicted of his murder. The case brought some mainstream attention -- including a 2006 Salon story -- to the popular, pervasive and controversial child "training" practices of Michael and Debi Pearl, which Lynn Paddock was said to have followed. The teachings of the Pearls and their Tennessee-based No Greater Joy ministry, which brought in $1.8 million last year in sales of books, DVDs and the like, are widely known and normalized across many conservative Christian churches and home-schooling communities. Perhaps the most popular of several ultra-conservative Christian figures to carry forward this centuries-old strain of Christian thought, the Pearls advocate a specific program of even-tempered, non-injurious corporal punishment, or "chastisement," designed to bring about total obedience -- even by infants -- to their sovereign parents. (The Pearls' ministry and principles are described in greater depth, and broader context, here.) By no means do the Pearls advocate suffocation with blankets; they are emphatically against "abuse." But they do not spare the rod. From their Web site: A length of quarter-inch plumbing supply line is a "real attention-getter."

This month, another child has died: 7-year-old Lydia Schatz, an apparent victim of repeated beating with -- as it turns out -- quarter-inch plumbing supply line. Her parents, Kevin and Elizabeth Schatz of Paradise, Calif., who reportedly called 911 to report that she was not breathing, stand charged with her murder. They are expected to enter a plea on Thursday. According to the authorities, forceful and numerous whippings, apparently with plumbing line, may have caused tissue breakdown so massive that Lydia's vital organs could no longer function. The Schatzes also face torture and abuse charges for significant injuries sustained by Lydia's also-adopted sister Zariah, 11, who was hospitalized in critical condition, as well as for extensive bruising on a 10-year-old biological son. (The Schatzes have six biological children and three adopted from Liberia.) Though the remaining children showed no visible signs of abuse, they told police they'd been "disciplined" with the tubing as well. Butte County District Attorney Mike Ramsey told Salon that the Schatzes had explicitly described to police their adherence to the Pearls' philosophy, which, as one of many horrified anti-Pearl bloggers within the conservative Christian community observes -- recalling precisely what prompted the Schatzes' call to 911 -- includes the admonition that a proper spanking leaves a child "without breath to complain."

It's one thing for those of us outside the fundamentalist Christian/Christian home-schooling world to point fingers at the Pearls and voice outrage at their methods. What really matters, and what stands to have actual impact, is the outrage inside the Pearls' world. And right now, more than ever, an anti-Pearl movement within the conservative Christian community is rising up in heated, if sometimes whispered, fury. Some say -- even pray -- that Lydia Schatz's death will bring Michael and Debi Pearl exactly the kind of attention they deserve.

"I think many in the Christian and/or home-school community wanted to see Sean Paddock as an 'extreme' example. Lynn Paddock was 'just' a foster mom. She already had issues. Whatever someone could use to rationalize away the influence of Michael and Debi Pearl, they would. Because they did not want to admit that a 'normal' home-schooling mom could abuse her child to death, they did not want to admit that a book that has been normalized in home-schooling circles was a factor in the death, they did not want to admit their own vulnerability to being deceived or hurting their child," says Alexandra Bush, 35, a "home-schooling mom and theologically conservative Christian" in Sarasota, Fla., who grew up with Pearl-style teaching around her (though not in her family) and who is an oft-heard anti-Pearl voice online. "Now, with Lydia Schatz, it is harder to explain away. I have seen a stronger response than before to her death and her sister's hospitalization. The defensiveness has cracked a bit. This is the logical outcome of the spank-until-submissive teachings of the Pearls. People are no longer able to see it as just an 'exception.'"

In a statement issued in response to the Schatz arrest, Michael Pearl said, "We do not teach 'corporal punishment' nor 'hitting' children. We teach parents how to train their children, which sometimes requires the limited and controlled application of a spanking instrument to hold the child's attention on admonition ... No Greater Joy does not advocate spanking to the point of serious injury. If indeed these parents were abusive, and that has not yet been proven by the courts, it is regretful that our teachings were not able to turn them from their predisposition to abusive habits."

Many critics of "biblical chastisement" -- notably, those close to the controversy, and even to the Schatz family -- might say that Pearl has it backward. They suggest that his teachings, with all the weight of their godly imprimatur, could exacerbate, or even create, the impulse to abuse. Paul Mathers, 32, a used bookstore owner in Chico, Calif., knows the Schatzes well, or thought he did. They attended his church for about eight months. He and his wife, Laurie -- who wrote in a wrenching blog post about her special bond with "little Lydia" -- have had dinner at the Schatzes' house; the Schatzes, remembering that the Matherses needed a bookcase, dropped off an extra just to be nice. "There is nothing about the Schatzes that would ever have made us think abuse of any kind was going on," Mathers says. "They are the dearest, sweetest people. This is completely unimaginable." Could the Pearls' principles have triggered abusive tendencies out of nowhere? Obviously, Mathers -- who says he finds the Pearls' "chastisement" philosophy "morally repugnant" -- can only speculate. "But one of the things the Pearls suggest is to have the piece of piping in every room and possibly even hang around your neck as you go around the house to keep the child in line," he says. "If you're going around wearing an instrument with which you hit things many times a day -- I could imagine that does do something to people."

As Laurie Mathers wrote on her blog: "The Pearls' system does not just mold children, it molds well-meaning parents into the kind of people who think they can and should expect perfect obedience and perfect behavior from imperfect and defenseless little creatures. In fact, it teaches them that if they don't succeed in this, they are not fit to be parents at all."

Or take Meggan Judge, interviewed by the Raleigh News & Observer and then by Salon in 2006, who found that her postpartum depression and the Pearls' principles were such a toxic combination that she had to lock herself in a separate room for fear she would "beat [her son] senseless."

"Obviously, I don't think Mr. Pearl stood over Lydia's body with plumbing line in hand," says Rebecca Diamond, a Bible Belt-born observant Christian and home-schooler in eastern Canada whose blog is critical of the Pearls. "But when he uses phrases such as continuing to whip until the crying turns into a 'wounded, submissive whimper' or 'without breath to complain,' I'm not sure how he doesn't bear moral guilt for this. Legally, I don't know if he can be charged. But morally? I believe that absolutely, anyone who advocates treating children like that bears responsibility."

It's not just about parents who lose it or children who die. A Pearl spokesperson says that more than 1,400,000 copies of their book "To Train Up a Child" are in print worldwide, distributed at conferences, in church-member welcome baskets, and to military families. What about the kids who live with this "discipline" every day? Diamond, for example, recalls hearing a mother talk about hitting her 6-month-old with a glue stick because the child "cooed and wriggled during a two-hour-long church service, and she wanted to 'train' the child to be silent."

"My wife and I are Christians and the Pearl system is one of the most anti-Christian systems I've ever heard of," says Mathers. "Part of what unnerves me is how many Christians I've encountered in the past week who either follow the Pearl system or step around it, saying, 'They may be a little extreme, but there's some good principles in there.' It scares me that there are people walking around with such things being acceptable in their heads. It scares me that people who call themselves Christians are willing to be so mean and merciless, or at the very least, that they feel OK condoning people like that." (Mathers is also not alone in believing that -- long hermeneutical story short -- the Pearls’ entire ministry is based on flawed, even heretical, theology.)

He adds: "Not to be crass, but you slap the title 'Christian' on something, and all of a sudden it's the 'Christian' thing. Sometimes, in my experience, that's all it takes for Christians to start following something. There's not a whole lot of discernment."

There are other, more concrete hypotheses as to why the Pearls' extreme philosophy -- though based on principles that are hardly brand-new -- has taken such hold now. Some see it as another weapon, taken up out of fear, in the ever-escalating conservative Christian vs. "secular" culture wars. Diamond's theory: "Pearl's books play on common fears in the subculture of the deeply religious home-schooling family, who is already by their own choice on the fringes of society: the fear that 'the world' will steal children away, the fear that somehow the parents will be to blame."

Also, the particulars of child-training are only one aspect of the Pearls' ministry. "The focus when their teachings are promoted isn't on the spanking, but on the 'tying heartstrings' and enjoying your kids," says Alexandra Bush. "It is easy to filter out the harsher teachings, the extremism, when surrounded by word pictures of peaceful, loving, fun families. The Pearls seem to tell parents that they just have to 'win' once and make sure their children know who is in charge, and then they will never have to spank again. That's how parents get sucked in -- promises of a fun, peaceful home, minimal confrontation, doing the 'right thing' for their children. Basically, the BS detectors are turned off by the pretty promises that are made."

Bush believes that's why the Pearls' teachings hold so much appeal for conservative, home-schooling parents who are, overall, "highly motivated to spend time with their children, love their children, willing to make sacrifices for their children, want the best for their children. They are not, in general, people prone to neglecting their kids or motivated by abuse and anger," she says. "So when people criticize the Pearls and in the same breath misrepresent parents who use Pearl parenting, those parents easily tune out the criticism."

And that's where the Pearls get their relatively "free pass," she concludes: "People know parents who are amazing and love their kids and don't abuse them -- and recommend the Pearls -- and so they have trouble believing the truth about the awful teachings. After all, if your home-school neighbor family looks like they have it all together, has sweet children and a calm mother -- and they use the Pearls, and they don't beat their kids -- then obviously it must be the critics who are wrong. Add to that the loyalty home-school parents have to the home-school movement -- hard to criticize one's own. Finally, even if someone can see the problems with the Pearls' words, they may be unwilling to admit that the Pearls are completely wrong and off their rocker, because that would be admitting that they themselves were susceptible to bad advice and may have harmed their own kids."

In other words, says Diamond, Pearl devotees are "loving people, people who take joy in their children, in their marriages, who like to participate in the community and do good for others. They aren't monsters. It would be easier, I think, to speak up loudly if they were."

Well, with the Schatzes, the anti-Pearl agitators have their monsters. Diamond believes that the already growing criticism of the Pearls within conservative Christianity -- which, beyond child-"training," also involves complex doctrinal differences and quasi-feminist debate over Debi Pearl's view of "heavenly marriage" -- will now continue to gain in volume. It's already happening, Diamond says: "I know of many women and men who are quietly speaking out. When material from the Pearls is suggested for parenting classes or Bible studies, they are speaking with the pastor, refuting the materials, begging people to really read what is being said. When another parent mentions the material, they politely respond with the reasons why they'd never use or endorse it. And they are often successful."

Bush reports the same thing. "In my local circles I've seen [Lydia Schatz’s death] as a catalyst for people and leaders in the church to speak up," she says. One church is planning a Sunday school event to focus on abusive parenting, aimed at parents and at grandparents, given that they might also be effective at intervention. In other churches, a mothers’ group director and other lay leaders have vowed to remain silent no more when they hear someone promoting the Pearls.

Christian and home-schooling bloggers are also voicing increasing anti-Pearl sentiment, and not just the ones who already reject any form of punitive parenting, Bush notes. Timberdoodle, a highly regarded and influential resource for conservative home-schoolers, responded to Lydia Schatz's death by exhorting its community to speak up: "Read, be informed, and share with your friends. There are many new, well-meaning parents who are looking for instruction and help in parenting. Use your knowledge to help them keep away from this dangerous path."

But discrediting the Pearls shouldn't depend on word-of-mouth or the grass roots, Bush argues. "As a Christian, I believe it has been a failing of the evangelical church in the U.S. as a whole for not warning their members about this type of harmful teaching. It is something the church cannot, biblically, ignore," she says, noting that increasing resistance to the Pearls comes at a time when even those in the most conservative Christian circles are reevaluating, on theological grounds, the evangelical movement's embrace of the practice of corporal punishment.

Still, Bush doesn't believe that the Pearls will ever be fully discredited or lose their influence in the Christian home-school community. "But," she says, "I do believe that their teachings will be more vocally warned against, more critically evaluated."

At the very least, critics of the Pearls are holding fast to the hope -- or, rather, growing evidence -- that Lydia's death will, somehow, not be in vain. "I hope that this will wake up enough people who follow them," says Rebecca Diamond. "If everyone stopped buying their books and hiring them to speak, they'd be as powerless and voiceless as all the children who have suffered under their teaching."

Paul Mathers shares that vision. Though unlikely to be fully realized, it's a pure expression of his and his wife's grief and rage -- for 7-year-old Lydia, for their friends the Schatzes, who had them for dinner, who gave them bookshelves. "If there were a strong enough popular opinion against the Pearls you wouldn't have a large number of Christians in a system like this, and then you wouldn't have a small number of Christians who go too far or make a mistake," he says. "I would love to see the people rise up and say no to the Pearls, that this will not stand. I would love to see the Pearl system become anathema, disgusting, and shunned by the world. I would love to see the Pearls out of a job. Before another child dies."

-- By Lynn Harris
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Broomstick »

:banghead:

I'm not going to quote the relevant parts of the OP to illustrate my point, because I just can't bear to do it. At best, these people are in denial. Are you using an inanimate object on your child? Yes? Then you are hitting them, you are using corporal punishment. To perform these actions on an unrelated adult would be, at a minimum, felonious assault. It is, indeed, systematic torture. It's wrong. These parents should lose custody permanently and their children sent to homes with sane adults that don't abuse children, much less beat them to death.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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The power of christ compells you to beat the shit out of your kids?


Interestingly, I recentely met a protestant christian who said he uses a wooden stick to teach his children discipline, because the good book says so. The way religious people keep saying the christianity is love while doing things like this is fucking terrifying, as its the same as 1984's Inner Party mentality.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Not real shocking, if you ask me. I was raised in a fundie church. Saying that most of those idiots were angry sadistic fucktards would be a total understatement. I still remember shit like one church lady getting mad at my younger when he was in his teens because he was wearing a T shirt with a skull (this wasn't even in church). She eventually yelled, "but you're a Christian" and literally tried to knock some "sense" into him by giving him a hard shove. Whether it's fundie parents beating their own kids or nuns trying to "correct" the behavior of students through violence, or whatever, lots of fundies really seem to enjoy hurting others. As long as its for Jebus, of course.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Yeah, but beating them until they've cried so much they don't have the breath to complain anymore? Even assuming that we take the stance of corporal punishment being the correct and proper way of doing things, how does a parent go from a quick swat on the behind to beating a child breathless with a piece of tubing?
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Damn this is disturbing. :shock:
It makes me glad I grew up in a moderate home and sickened at cruelty of my fellow humans to say nothing about fellow christians.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Marcus Aurelius »

Spekio wrote:
The way religious people keep saying the christianity is love while doing things like this is fucking terrifying, as its the same as 1984's Inner Party mentality.
Doublethink is the word in newspeak. Indeed, the more I think about it, the more I a come to the conclusion that all credal religions require some kind of doublethink from their adherents, just the amount varies. Christian fundamentalism quite obviously requires a lot of it. This is just one example, although among the more ugly ones.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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Six biological children and they are "saving" more children by adopting them from Africa.

Of course the adopted children need more "saving" than their biological children, so they get beaten more.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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My take on this:

The problem is that you start with a small amount of doublethink, around the edges (for theological problems such as "if God is good, why is there evil in the world?"). That's practically necessary in any religion. And as long as it's kept to specific areas it's... fairly benign.

But there's a whole different category of doublethink that arises in insular fundamentalist circles, where you spend your whole life surrounded by people who all believe basically the same things, who cannot even understand the idea of being truly wrong about anything, and who are constantly exhorted to keep operating that way by charismatic preachers.

At that point, doublethink is to the fundie as water is to fish. That's when things really start to get poisonous, because to do it, you have to smother the little voice in your head that tells you you're making a mistake. Otherwise that voice will be ringing all the time. So you need so much doublethink to operate that you have to permanently disable your ability to detect inconsistencies and errors in your own behavior.

But normal people use that ability for a conscience. To replace it, you need something, and (as a fundie) you get that from religious authority figures. And once you've done that, anyone who can convincingly impersonate a religious authority figure can push the right buttons, effectively hack into your new prosthetic conscience, and reprogram it to do whatever appeals their perverted little mind. As the Pearls seem to have done.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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I grew up with this teaching. My parents keep a dozen or so of the Pearl's book, To Train Up A Child, on hand to give to people who ask them for help or advice in discipling their children. And actually, they gave me a copy when the wee one was born; it's on the bookshelf at this moment. Needless to say, my parents are devoted to this teaching. They also receive the Pearl's monthly magazine, No Greater Joy; I poured over that magazine as a child, reading every story. My mom loves the book Created to Be His Helpmeet, written by Debi Pearl. Thanks to her, I own a copy of the book. Check it out here: http://nogreaterjoy.org/blogs/createdtobehishelpmeet/. It's the worst of the worst of the worst of the submissive wife bullshit. The Pearls are widely followed among fundamentalist Christian homeschoolers, including my parents.

Only one time did my parents stop following their teaching in a situation, and that was because my sister would likely have died if they continued. My two year old sister refused to say please. Now, she knew how to say please, and had said it before; she just decided that she would not say it. They refused to give her her food if she wouldn't say please, because they figured hunger would eventually drive her to give in and say please. The same with water. This is the Pearls' teaching. After a day and a half, my sister was weak and flaccid. She only wanted to be held. That night, my mom had a dream that my sister died from starvation and dehydration. The next morning, the gave her food and water without asking her to say please. Instead, the only asked that she say please for desert or snacks. After several days of food and water but no snacks, she gave in and said please for a popsicle. Another time, a different sister, at around the same age, refused to eat her tomatoes. After a day without food, she gave in and ate the tomatoes.

Bear in mind that my mom is a nurse, and my parents loved their children. We were spanked, but not with a rubber hose (they used their hands or wooden paddles), and never to the point of bruising or blood (okay, one time my mom left a bruise on another of my sisters, and she was mortified, and was careful not to do that again). So, physically, our discipline never went beyond simple paddling.

The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:
When you tell some parents they need to switch their children, they respond, "I would if I could find someone willing to trade." I have had children in my house that would be enough to give an electric wheat grinder a nervous breakdown. The parents look like escapees from a Second World War, Polish boxcar. Another hour with them, and I would have been searching the yellow-pages for discount vasectomies. While we try to sit and talk, the children are constantly running in and out of doors, complaining of ill treatment from the others, begging to go or stay or eat, or demanding a toy that the other children will not relinquish. The mother must continually jump up and rescue some breakable object. She says, "No" six-hundred and sixty-six times in the space of two hours. She spanks each child two or three times--usually with her hand on top of a diaper. Other than misaligning the child's spine, it seems to have no effect.

When we speak of consistently rewarding every transgression with a switching (not a karate chop to the lower backbone), this mother can only see herself as further brutalizing children for whom it will do no good. Her discipline is just "laying down a field of fire" to give herself sufficient cover to get through to the next task. She doesn't hope to conquer their wills, just create enough diversion to accomplish her own mission.

Another mother walks in with her little ones and sits down to talk. She says to them, "Go out in the sun-room to play and don't bother Mama unless you need something." For the next two hours we are not even aware the children are present--except when a little one comes in holding herself saying, "Pee-pee, Mama." They play together well, resolve their own conflicts and don't expect attention when one turns the rocking horse over and gets a knot on her head. They don't come in and out--they have been told not to. This mother never spanked her children while at my house. And she never needed to rebuke them. She looks rested. When the children are called to go home, one says, "Mama, can I stay and play with Shoshanna?" Mother answers, "No, not today. We have work to do at home." As he lifts his arms, the little fellow is picked up. Hugging his mother's neck, he says, "I love you Mama."

This young mother said to me, "My children want to please me. They try so hard to do everything I say. We have such fun together." She is looking forward to more children. They are the joy of her life. But there was a time when this was not the case.

By the grace of God and through the simple, Biblical principles found in these pages, with determination and an open heart this mother has trained up children who bring her joy and honor.
Oh, and you'll probably get a kick out of the Pearls' views on pornogarphy in this tract, Pornography: The Road to Hell (http://famguardian.org/Subjects/SexualI ... ToHell.htm). Oh, and the Pearls teach that wives owe their husbands sex, and that if wives turn down having sex with their husbands, their husbands will naturally (and justifiably) go elsewhere for sex. Having this teaching ingrained in me as a child and teenager causes me problems today, as it is hard to change old thought patterns.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:
Wow, that's like saying the best way to make someone a better baseball pitcher is to break every bone in his hand. Unbelievable.
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Themightytom
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Themightytom »

Simon_Jester wrote:

At that point, doublethink is to the fundie as water is to fish. That's when things really start to get poisonous, because to do it, you have to smother the little voice in your head that tells you you're making a mistake. Otherwise that voice will be ringing all the time. So you need so much doublethink to operate that you have to permanently disable your ability to detect inconsistencies and errors in your own behavior.
I wonder how onset schizophrenia ties into this. I have long harbored the suspicion that as auditory hallucinations or emergent personalities are so difficult to detect via MRI they might be a lot more prolific than is generally apparent, but for the majority of people, such miscues are easily dismissed, or can be coped with. Emergent personalities are "doubts" or a "Conscience" or ::gulp "The voice of the lord"

I grew up catholic, I still hit the ol' church every now and then and I have to explain SURPRISINGLY OFTEN that no, I have never heard God tell me to do anything and no, there is no little voice in my head that whispers hope and possibly touches my genitalia.

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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by PkbonupePeter_Kcos8 »

I grew up catholic, I still hit the ol' church every now and then and I have to explain SURPRISINGLY OFTEN that no, I have never heard God tell me to do anything and no, there is no little voice in my head that whispers hope and possibly touches my genitalia.
I still attend church from time to time, but I've never heard anyone seriously talk about "hearing voices." I've always assumed that they meant the whole "do what you feel God calls you to do" bit metaphorically.

Prayer has always struck me as being more of a form of meditative self-assurance than anything else.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

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The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:
And that's probably what makes so many Fundies into violent, near-sadistic monsters. (At least when it comes to discipline).

The religion is full of nothing but victims.

The difference between a the type of person that subscribes to this kind of discipline and a rape victim commiting sex crimes is that the religious nut is going after their own flesh and blood.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

What do you call it when a story drowns out your Internet Tough Guy with a huge saddening that makes you feel slightly like crying and slightly ill?

I'm there.


How did the adoption agency not get that these lunatics were given to fucking torture-conditioning their children? That's what this is, pure and simple: disobey me, and I will beat you until you can cry no longer!


For the love of fuck, I hope these worthless sadistic sons of bitches get thrown under the jail! Is it remotely possible to go after the worthless shitsmear that originated this idea? I imagine it's not; free speech and all, but free speech ends when you're inciting calls to violence, doesn't it?

IE, as I understand it (IANAL) you can gripe about some class of people, but you can't exort your listens to go out and beat their brains in. Could you get this worthless shitnugget under those laws?
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Way to overwork a metaphor Shadow. I feel really creeped out now.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Serafina »

The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:
Wow...just...wow.

That really explains a lot about fundies.
And i AM against censorship - but what that book is advocating is fucking ILLGEAL and IMMORAL by all conceivable standards. Why the fuck is it not yet banned?
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

Serafina wrote:
The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:
Wow...just...wow.

That really explains a lot about fundies.
And i AM against censorship - but what that book is advocating is fucking ILLGEAL and IMMORAL by all conceivable standards. Why the fuck is it not yet banned?
Actually, corporal punishment is not illegal in the United States.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

Here's the part on their website about using piping:
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... nt-part-2/

What instrument would I use?

As a rule, do not use your hand. Hands are for loving and helping. If an adult swings his or her hand fast enough to cause pain to the surface of the skin, there is a danger of damaging bones and joints. The most painful nerves are just under the surface of the skin. A swift swat with a light, flexible instrument will sting without bruising or causing internal damage. Many people are using a section of ¼ inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument. It will fit in your purse or hang around you neck. You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Serafina »

Liberty Ferall wrote:
Serafina wrote:
The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:
Wow...just...wow.

That really explains a lot about fundies.
And i AM against censorship - but what that book is advocating is fucking ILLGEAL and IMMORAL by all conceivable standards. Why the fuck is it not yet banned?
Actually, corporal punishment is not illegal in the United States.
Wait...WHAT?
Are you serious?
Wow...talk about...well, i don't know, i am speechless.
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"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Liberty Ferall wrote:
Serafina wrote:Wow...just...wow.

That really explains a lot about fundies.
And i AM against censorship - but what that book is advocating is fucking ILLGEAL and IMMORAL by all conceivable standards. Why the fuck is it not yet banned?
Actually, corporal punishment is not illegal in the United States.
But we do have laws against abuse, neglect, attempted homicide, and so on.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Aaron »

Serafina wrote:
Wait...WHAT?
Are you serious?
Wow...talk about...well, i don't know, i am speechless.
It's not surprising, the US is a predominately religious nation and the bible and Christianity in general have never been light on physical punishment for kids.

Mind you, what we're discussing in this thread isn't corporal punishment but flat out abuse. Spanking is one thing but beatings with pipes, suffocation and starvation cross into child abuse. Theres no possible way to spin it otherwise. Especially when it's infants, who aren't developed enough to speak, let alone know that hot=bad.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Formless »

Hell, if you beat an adult with a pipe you get charged with assault and possibly attempted homicide, why should it be any different if you beat a child with one?
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

Formless wrote:Hell, if you beat an adult with a pipe you get charged with assault and possibly attempted homicide, why should it be any different if you beat a child with one?
I'm on your side here, but I thought you'd find it interesting to see why the Pearls think it's different:
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... nt-part-1/
The rod mimics human government.

Governments are established to protect the good and punish the evil. They do so with a great deal of consistency. If you speed, you will eventually get caught and pay a fine. If you steal, they have the power to put you in jail. If you murder, the government has the power to take your life. If government did not have the power to inflict painful consequences on its subjects, it would no longer be government; it would be a hollow nuisance. When it spoke, it would fill the air with meaningless words. Before a child is old enough to be subject to government, he is nonetheless in need of governing. Parents must have the rod available as a last resort if they are to reflect human government and command respect. It is not good for the child to be allowed several years in which to live and act without fear of ultimate consequences. It is the just and timely application of the rod that prepares children to obey the laws of the land. Where the rod is either abused or not used, there is a great deal of juvenile delinquency and crime.

Our present laws make exceptions for children. Parents excuse the behavior of their children, and children learn to live outside the law. When they finally get old enough for the courts to impute blame to them, they are already conditioned to be irresponsible. Children raised under this kind of unruliness, find it hard to fear any law, especially the law of an unseen God, whose threats are equally unseen. In their formative years, proper application of the rod will condition children to believe there is a day of certain reckoning, in this life and in the next. The rod makes better citizens.
So basically, the parents are the government over their children. Thus, it is appropriate for parents to punish their children when they do wrong, just as the government can punish its citizens when they do wrong. I'm not saying I agree, but that's their argument.

Oh and for more on exactly what the Pearls teach about capital punishment, see this page: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... nt-part-2/
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Aaron »

Formless wrote:Hell, if you beat an adult with a pipe you get charged with assault and possibly attempted homicide, why should it be any different if you beat a child with one?
It isn't (or shouldn't be), it's just easier to get away with and spin to your advantage (not sure thats the right word), because kids aren't necessarily the greatest at describing what goes on. Though I suspect that all involved in this sort of thing will get nailed eventually.
LF wrote: *stuff*
Uh huh and what about folks that don't use corporal punishment and have well behaved kids?

Edit: This whole thing is really teaching kids only two things:

1. Fear. Do what your told or your getting hit.
2. Your bigger then me and that makes it ok to beat on me.

Guess where #2 leads.
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Re: Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

Post by Liberty »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Formless wrote:Hell, if you beat an adult with a pipe you get charged with assault and possibly attempted homicide, why should it be any different if you beat a child with one?
It isn't (or shouldn't be), it's just easier to get away with and spin to your advantage (not sure thats the right word), because kids aren't necessarily the greatest at describing what goes on. Though I suspect that all involved in this sort of thing will get nailed eventually.
I really think that part of the reason it's "easier to get away with" is that parents are expected to make sure their parents obey the law and behave appropriately. Thus it's easier to justify hitting someone under your authority in order to keep them in line than it is to justify hitting a random person for no apparent reason.
LF wrote: *stuff*
Uh huh and what about folks that don't use corporal punishment and have well behaved kids?
Oh, I know, I'm not saying I agree with the Pearls. I used to, growing up, and my parents still do. And since these ideas are ingrained in my mind, I have to admit that I'm (irrationally) afraid that my little wee one will grow up to be a horrible child because I don't plan to spank her or "break her spirit." I'm really afraid that not spanking her is going to result in a selfish, spoiled brat, and I have to keep telling myself that that's not true.
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