Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

[Aaron]

I know you don't agree Ferall, I didn't mean to imply that you did.

As for your plans with Baby, your doing the right thing, trust me you don't want to go down that road. PM me if you need too, been there.

Back to the topic, its almost as if their trying to "raise soldiers", what with the talk of "breaking spirit" and shite. Except kids (really young ones) don't have much to break down and build up. May as well just have them on the parade square FFS.

[Formless]

The rod mimics human government.

Right, because we're so happy to just let government torture people who disobey or disagree with it at a whim. Oh, wait, I'm being sarcastic. Biblical governments behaved this way, but modern law is not Hammurabi's code. Harming criminals IS wrong, but the benefits of imprisoning lawbreakers (increased security from deterrence and simply having such people off the streets, rehabilitation, labor and so on) outweigh the negatives. Ideally there is a better way, we just haven't discovered it yet.

So basically, the parents are the government over their children.

These people honestly don't understand that its the government whose job is to be the government to adults and children alike and the parents job to raise the child? Nah, this is just apologetics, the real reason is that the bible says to do it this way, and out of tradition.

[eion]

...I have to admit that I'm (irrationally) afraid that my little wee one will grow up to be a horrible child because I don't plan to spank her or "break her spirit." I'm really afraid that not spanking her is going to result in a selfish, spoiled brat, and I have to keep telling myself that that's not true.

I know you don't really feel that way, but even if you did end up with a brat for not "disciplining" a child, the alternative as we've seen here is putting your kid in ICU, possibly killing them.

I'd rather have the brat.

Licensing parents the way we do drivers is sounding better every day.

[Superman]

So basically, the parents are the government over their children. Thus, it is appropriate for parents to punish their children when they do wrong, just as the government can punish its citizens when they do wrong. I'm not saying I agree, but that's their argument.

Their argument really doesn't amount to shit if what they do were to fall under the legal definition of "child abuse." Yes, it's legal to spank your child, but there's still a line parents aren't supposed to cross. You can't just beat the shit out of your kid to the point of injury and call it a form of punishment. Admittedly, there's some gray area here, but if religious idiots can't adapt to the norms and laws of society, then I'd say they've got something of a problem. And abusers always have some kind of screwy rationalization for what they do (whether they're shitty parents, a battering spouse, etc); that's when it's up to society (hopefully) to step in and do what's best for the children.

Personally, I was spanked quite a bit as a child. If we ever have kids, there's no way I'll put them through that bullshit. All I have to do is remember being scared shitless of my dad and the pain I had to endure, and sometimes it was for nothing more than being a hyper kid. I'd like to think I can enlighten myself beyond mindlessly repeating what I was raised in.

[Broomstick]

What instrument would I use?

As a rule, do not use your hand. Hands are for loving and helping. If an adult swings his or her hand fast enough to cause pain to the surface of the skin, there is a danger of damaging bones and joints. The most painful nerves are just under the surface of the skin. A swift swat with a light, flexible instrument will sting without bruising or causing internal damage. Many people are using a section of ¼ inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument. It will fit in your purse or hang around you neck. You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.

For centuries in Europe, the first step in torturing confessions out of heretics was showing them the instruments of torture. How repugnant, to treat children as criminals and heretics from day one. I have no doubt that will compel obedience, but it will not instill love or good character or happiness.

[Liberty]

What instrument would I use?

As a rule, do not use your hand. Hands are for loving and helping. If an adult swings his or her hand fast enough to cause pain to the surface of the skin, there is a danger of damaging bones and joints. The most painful nerves are just under the surface of the skin. A swift swat with a light, flexible instrument will sting without bruising or causing internal damage. Many people are using a section of ¼ inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument. It will fit in your purse or hang around you neck. You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.

For centuries in Europe, the first step in torturing confessions out of heretics was showing them the instruments of torture. How repugnant, to treat children as criminals and heretics from day one. I have no doubt that will compel obedience, but it will not instill love or good character or happiness.

When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

[Superman]

When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

I would think that, no matter what, there are times when kids are going to be brats. And so what if your child is bratty once in a while? Why are you afraid of this? I guess what I find almost disturbing is your willingness to subject someone else to the bullshit you had to go through. I don't know, maybe your dad didn't hit as hard as mine did. Regardless, there are plenty of alternatives to hitting your kid.

[Aaron]

Ironically, smacking your kid around often has the opposite effect. Kids crave attention and if the only attention they get is negative, they'll still act out to get it.

[Serafina]

Seriously, are those people unable to recognize that you can raise a child to have a morality?
Simple stuff like compassion for others and understanding why it is bad to hurt others?

Oh, wait - their religion teaches that the only morality comes from blind obedience. Nevermind then.

Seriously, i still can not wrap my mind about the fact that such people are so widespread in a first-world country.

When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

Just keep that in mind and you should be fine.
A child that is raised to feel compassion for others and whichs mind is not supressed by fear will be much more moral and way better to recognize danger for itself and others.

And don't give up when your child misbehaves - that is inevitable and not a sign of failure.

[Superman]

Ironically, smacking your kid around often has the opposite effect. Kids crave attention and if the only attention they get is negative, they'll still act out to get it.

Yeah, I was going to mention this too. I was reading something just the other day that referenced some studies that demonstrated a link between acting out and being spanked.

[Liberty]

When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

I would think that, no matter what, there are times when kids are going to be brats. And so what if your child is bratty once in a while? Why are you afraid of this? I guess what I find almost disturbing is your willingness to subject someone else to the bullshit you had to go through. I don't know, maybe your dad didn't hit as hard as mine did. Regardless, there are plenty of alternatives to hitting your kid.

Um, did you misread what I said? I said I won't spank my kid. I said I don't want her to be afraid of me. I did say that because I was raised to think that the only way to make a kid not turn out to be a druggie, pregnant, etc, is to spank them, that thought pattern is still there in my brain in some form. But I know it's wrong, and I do NOT intend to spank my children. So why are you finding what I'm saying "disturbing?"

[Raesene]

[...]When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

I'm sure you'll find other ways to punish the child for bad behaviour than beating her. Removing/granting privileges worked for my parents when raising my sister and me.
In my view, beating a child is assault, even more serious as it's against a person you are entrusted with. If someone wants perfect obedience, they should get a dog.

[Broomstick]

When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

I would think that, no matter what, there are times when kids are going to be brats. And so what if your child is bratty once in a while? Why are you afraid of this? I guess what I find almost disturbing is your willingness to subject someone else to the bullshit you had to go through. I don't know, maybe your dad didn't hit as hard as mine did. Regardless, there are plenty of alternatives to hitting your kid.

I don't think Liberty is in favor of this "system" and I don't think she's "willing" to hit her kids... I think she's talking about her childhood and the baggage that comes with it.

And frankly, I always thought "spank" meant an open-handed slap on the butt that left no mark on either party. What the Pearls are advocating are whipping and beating. Seriously, that bit about hitting skin-to-skin causing damage to bones and joints is a tip-off - WTF? How can you justify hitting a child hard enough to injure either the child or yourself? Their advocating using an implement to "chastise" children is just a way for them to be sadistic without putting their own flesh at risk.

[Broomstick]

If someone wants perfect obedience, they should get a dog.

I've had dogs. They don't obey perfectly, either.

If you want perfect obedience buy a doll. Something that isn't alive.

[Superman]

Um, did you misread what I said? I said I won't spank my kid. I said I don't want her to be afraid of me. I did say that because I was raised to think that the only way to make a kid not turn out to be a druggie, pregnant, etc, is to spank them, that thought pattern is still there in my brain in some form. But I know it's wrong, and I do NOT intend to spank my children. So why are you finding what I'm saying "disturbing?"

I did misread it then. My bad. I see you're just being honest.

[Raesene]

[...]
I don't think Liberty is in favor of this "system" and I don't think she's "willing" to hit her kids... I think she's talking about her childhood and the baggage that comes with it.

And frankly, I always thought "spank" meant an open-handed slap on the butt that left no mark on either party. What the Pearls are advocating are whipping and beating. Seriously, that bit about hitting skin-to-skin causing damage to bones and joints is a tip-off - WTF? How can you justify hitting a child hard enough to injure either the child or yourself? Their advocating using an implement to "chastise" children is just a way for them to be sadistic without putting their own flesh at risk.

Using a whip ("to fit into your purse or around you neck") sounds like they want to keep and punish slaves, not raise children.

[Dragon Angel]

Really, this does not surprise me one bit. My grandmother on my mom's side once or twice tied me to a chair when I was unruly back then, and was likely to use these methods on me had it not been for my mother, who expressly forbade her from it. I can't recall exactly how long those sessions lasted, but to a child of the lower single digits...it was an eternity.

This method of punishment was actually quite common in my mom's homeland, but instead of blunt instruments, sharp tools such as branches or sugarcanes were used. The more blood, the better, was the common belief... -shudder-

[Stark]

I can't imagine this sort of thing going on without people fighting back. People have tried to use corporal punishment on me, and it's never worked while I've been physically able to resist. How early do you have to start to break someone mentally so they won't fight back?

If my grandmother tried to tie me to a chair I can't imagine how she would ever have been able to do so without my cooperation.

[Liberty]

If someone wants perfect obedience, they should get a dog.

I've had dogs. They don't obey perfectly, either.

If you want perfect obedience buy a doll. Something that isn't alive.

Oh, but don't buy a barbie doll, because everyone knows (or at least the Pearls do) that barbie dolls make little girls have sexual daydreams :
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... aby-dolls/

[Aaron]

I can't imagine this sort of thing going on without people fighting back. People have tried to use corporal punishment on me, and it's never worked while I've been physically able to resist. How early do you have to start to break someone mentally so they won't fight back?

If my grandmother tried to tie me to a chair I can't imagine how she would ever have been able to do so without my cooperation.

Early, as in infant.

[Serafina]

[...]When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

I'm sure you'll find other ways to punish the child for bad behaviour than beating her. Removing/granting privileges worked for my parents when raising my sister and me.
In my view, beating a child is assault, even more serious as it's against a person you are entrusted with. If someone wants perfect obedience, they should get a dog.

That's always good.
Just make sure that it is not seemingly at random and that they are actual privileges.
Food, water, heat, elecricity and contact to others are NOT privileges.

But not allowing your child to drink softdrinks? That's ok.
Taking away those sweets? Fine - and perfect if it is related to, say, bad mouth hygiene or an eating problem (say, not eating those vegetables).
Confining your child to its room? Ok, as long as it is not too long and good if it is related to the misbehaviour (say, being rude to a friend).
Taking away toys? Sure, if it has done something wrong with them.

Generally, it's best if the punishment is related to the "crime" (for lack of a better word).
Also, it really does not work that good if it is a long punishment, unless it includes a form of redeeming (say: you are not allowed to do X until you clean up that mess).

Hitting is never an option, since it fails as a punishent - it only reinforces fear.

[Aaron]

Oh, but don't buy a barbie doll, because everyone knows (or at least the Pearls do) that barbie dolls make little girls have sexual daydreams :
http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/articles/ge ... aby-dolls/

That article is fucked. Aside from the usual BS involving lustful thoughts, Barbies in barracks? Give me a fucking break, any guy who brought one in and displayed it would be ruthlessly mocked and accused of being gay.

[Stark]

I'm curious because my parents smacked me when I was young, but when I was school-age I'd just get away from any attempt to use 'serious' corporal punishment. I wonder if Superman has any information about the mentality of child abuse victims? Is there some kind of guilt that makes it impossible for them to be anything but passive participants?

[Aaron]

I'm curious because my parents smacked me when I was young, but when I was school-age I'd just get away from any attempt to use 'serious' corporal punishment. I wonder if Superman has any information about the mentality of child abuse victims? Is there some kind of guilt that makes it impossible for them to be anything but passive participants?

I suspect its more along the lines of it being "normal" for you. What your describing (to me) sounds like the regular smack on the bottom, rather then hard core beatings. Theres no hard and fast rules in human psychology though.

[Serafina]

I'm curious because my parents smacked me when I was young, but when I was school-age I'd just get away from any attempt to use 'serious' corporal punishment. I wonder if Superman has any information about the mentality of child abuse victims? Is there some kind of guilt that makes it impossible for them to be anything but passive participants?

It's more like "he is right to beat me, since he is stronger" (not necessarily limited to physical strenght).
Which, "incidentially", is also a reoccuring theme in the bible.

And yes, that carries over to other aspects of life - they do not get violent against everyone, but the compulsion for power-usage no matter what is greater.