Christian Fundamentalists Caught Torturing Children to Death

[Stark]

Yeah; my parents didn't try anything crazy like this. I'm just struggling to understand how you can (for instance) let someone tie you up and beat you.

[Aaron]

It's more like "he is right to beat me, since he is stronger" (not necessarily limited to physical strenght).
Which, "incidentially", is also a reoccuring theme in the bible.

And yes, that carries over to other aspects of life - they do not get violent against everyone, but the compulsion for power-usage no matter what is greater.

That is certainly what I've been told by psychologists (child and other wise). It's similar to being a battered wife I suppose, at some point the child starts to blame themselves for the behaviour. "If I was only better behaved", "if I could only make Mom/Dad happy", "I must deserve it", etc.

[Liberty]

I can't imagine this sort of thing going on without people fighting back. People have tried to use corporal punishment on me, and it's never worked while I've been physically able to resist. How early do you have to start to break someone mentally so they won't fight back?

According to the Pearls, age five months. Not even kidding.

Back to the topic, its almost as if their trying to "raise soldiers", what with the talk of "breaking spirit" and shite. Except kids (really young ones) don't have much to break down and build up. May as well just have them on the parade square FFS.

Check out this passage from page 8 of their book:

One father tells of his training sessions with each new toddler. He sets aside an evening for "booty" camp, which is a boot camp for toddlers.

In this case, toddlers means children ten-months-old.

[Liberty]

That is certainly what I've been told by psychologists (child and other wise). It's similar to being a battered wife I suppose, at some point the child starts to blame themselves for the behaviour. "If I was only better behaved", "if I could only make Mom/Dad happy", "I must deserve it", etc.

Incidentally, I responded by doing my godawful best to be the "perfect" child. By high school, I was pretty much succeeding; I was my dad's little "mini-me." The problem then was that once I went to college and learned to think for myself, all hell broke loose.

[Formless]

The analogy to Battered wife syndrome is a good one. Stockholm syndrome too-- after all, the kid is in your care, there is no way for them to escape the system without outside help.

[Superman]

I'm curious because my parents smacked me when I was young, but when I was school-age I'd just get away from any attempt to use 'serious' corporal punishment. I wonder if Superman has any information about the mentality of child abuse victims? Is there some kind of guilt that makes it impossible for them to be anything but passive participants?

I think it's a role people learn as they grow up. Lots of abuse victims even learn to blame themselves and start to think they "deserve it." I remember when I was working with people in recovery, we'd hear this kind of thing all the time from women who were abuse survivors. Most would grow up being victimized by an abuser (usually a father, in the case of women), then later end up in a relationship with a guy that would turn out to be abusive. Not only would they manage to find an abuser, some would endure multiple abusive relationships with multiple abusive guys. It's like some people who survive abuse unknowingly learn to play the role of a victim, and that role is so ingrained in their minds that they unknowingly develop a "radar" for the guys who will end up repeating the cycle (or vice versa, but we didn't hear about that much). On some level, they're also attracted to this kind of person. Maybe it's a simple matter of familiarity. I've also heard psychiatrists talk about abuse victims learning to survive and endure childhood abuse by "dissociating," something that's almost like how an animal might play dead.

Anyway, there are probably some folks, maybe like you and I, who eventually got just got really angry about being hit or whatever by parents and rebelled. I don't know about you, but what I went through would easily be labeled as abuse. Maybe the flip side to enduring the abuse of a violent parent is eventually becoming angry and fighting back. I think we're probably in the minority though.

[Stark]

I just remember being five and having the principal call my parents because when I was recieving some punishment (I think it was some bizarre 'belt to the palm' business) I just stood there silently glaring at him instead of crying or whatever normal kids do. I didn't learn contrition; I learned to be angry and fight back. I think this was still a reaction to shame, though; maybe you either go to 'avoidance' or 'revenge' attitudes dependent on your personality.

[Aaron]

Incidentally, I responded by doing my godawful best to be the "perfect" child. By high school, I was pretty much succeeding; I was my dad's little "mini-me." The problem then was that once I went to college and learned to think for myself, all hell broke loose.

I served with tons of women (and men like that). Mom and Dad where dicks and after they sign up they go nuts; drunk all the time, fucking anything that moves. And then they get married and do exactly what their folks did.

[Aaron]

I just remember being five and having the principal call my parents because when I was recieving some punishment (I think it was some bizarre 'belt to the palm' business) I just stood there silently glaring at him instead of crying or whatever normal kids do. I didn't learn contrition; I learned to be angry and fight back. I think this was still a reaction to shame, though; maybe you either go to 'avoidance' or 'revenge' attitudes dependent on your personality.

Fight, flight or freeze; basic human (and animal) reaction to situations like these. The body picks one and there usually isn't a way to tell which way you'll go prior to it happening.

[Stark]

Thinking about it in those general terms I think you're right; I don't freeze up under pressure (generally doing something poorly thought-out instead, like fighting). I've heard it's pretty common for men to be 'active' when under stress though (wanting to resolve or move past crises, etc) rather than passive.

[Aaron]

Thinking about it in those general terms I think you're right; I don't freeze up under pressure (generally doing something poorly thought-out instead, like fighting). I've heard it's pretty common for men to be 'active' when under stress though (wanting to resolve or move past crises, etc) rather than passive.

Generally thats how it seems to be, the animal won't crawl on the plate for you, ya know.

Thats why the military still does all that boring drill and repetition, so that the "fight, flight, freeze" becomes "fight." And even though men in general are more active, you still have to overcome the bodies tendency to choose one at (seemingly) random.

[loomer]

Oh sweet christ, I don't even hit fucking consenting BDSM-minded adults as badly as these lunatics do children. Some of these kids are going to have serious issues when they grow up. Hell, this shit is alarmingly close to some of the crap serial killers like Gacy and Ed Gein went through as kids, so maybe we can thank the Fundies for raising a new generation of them.

[Formless]

I've also heard psychiatrists talk about abuse victims learning to survive and endure childhood abuse by "dissociating," something that's almost like how an animal might play dead.

Wouldn't it be more like "going to your happy place"? From what I know of dissociation its basically a real life defense mechanism-- just as the mind can associate certain experiences with emotions, memories, and so on it can explicitly deny such relationships exist, up to and including the sense of self or reality.

[Bilbo]

I know this is more or less off-topic but I have this gleeful image of over the hill fundies, their mental faculties failing them as fast as their bodies, being beaten bloody by their grown children who have turned the table and now deem the parents to at least mentally be the disobedient child.

Its really not that hard to imagine.

Many elderly over 70 have enough problems that their actions can be as infuriating as the actions of a small child. Wouldnt the proper fundamental solution be to "school" them with the rod over and over again until their behavior is back in line with what is proper?

[Aaron]

Wouldn't it be more like "going to your happy place"? From what I know of dissociation its basically a real life defense mechanism-- just as the mind can associate certain experiences with emotions, memories, and so on it can explicitly deny such relationships exist, up to and including the sense of self or reality.

I usually hear it refereed to as "compartmentalization," emotions are detached from the event itself, common in people with dangerous occupations (fireman, cops, soldiers etc). Unfortunately, they surface years later and the individuals life basically falls apart.

[Superman]

Wouldn't it be more like "going to your happy place"? From what I know of dissociation its basically a real life defense mechanism-- just as the mind can associate certain experiences with emotions, memories, and so on it can explicitly deny such relationships exist, up to and including the sense of self or reality.

I would think so. The same goal is achieved, no matter how our minds might rationalize it.

[Formless]

I usually hear it refereed to as "compartmentalization," emotions are detached from the event itself, common in people with dangerous occupations (fireman, cops, soldiers etc). Unfortunately, they surface years later and the individuals life basically falls apart.

More or less yeah. Cognitive dissonance is related, I believe. Its not usually unhealthy, but for victims of abuse and other trauma it can cause a lot of problems down the road. PTSD, psychologically based amnesia, depersonalization, heck even multiple personalities (to the extent they exist) are believed to be caused by it. Mostly PTSD. Fun stuff.

[Simon_Jester]

I grew up with this teaching. My parents keep a dozen or so of the Pearl's book, To Train Up A Child, on hand to give to people who ask them for help or advice in discipling their children. And actually, they gave me a copy when the wee one was born; it's on the bookshelf at this moment.

I have an image of you printing out a copy of the news article in question, burning the book, and mailing them the ashes in a bag with the news article pinned to the outside.

This is probably a very bad idea, and you probably shouldn't do it, but... tempting, no?

The mother must continually jump up and rescue some breakable object. She says, "No" six-hundred and sixty-six times in the space of two hours. She spanks each child two or three times--usually with her hand on top of a diaper. Other than misaligning the child's spine, it seems to have no effect.

And now I know the soulless bastard is making this up.

How did the adoption agency not get that these lunatics were given to fucking torture-conditioning their children? That's what this is, pure and simple: disobey me, and I will beat you until you can cry no longer!

I wonder if we can convince state governments to use "are you now or have you ever been a fan of the works of Mr. Pearl?" as a pass-fail question during adoptions...

Wow...just...wow.
That really explains a lot about fundies.
And i AM against censorship - but what that book is advocating is fucking ILLGEAL and IMMORAL by all conceivable standards. Why the fuck is it not yet banned?

Actually, corporal punishment is not illegal in the United States.

On the other hand, this specifically would probably be outlawed by a vast majority of Americans- the bit about beating children with a rubber hose until they can't cry anymore. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's already banned, in that child abuse is illegal and that would qualify as child abuse. The book itself is not banned, but there are a lot of unrelated reasons for that.

The kind of corporal punishment that is still socially accepted in the US by a majority is... way, way less horrific than this.

Using a whip ("to fit into your purse or around you neck") sounds like they want to keep and punish slaves, not raise children.

I'm betting they do.

This school of Christianity is basically completely out of touch with civilization; they haven't gotten word of the Enlightenment. Or, for that matter, the Renaissance.

[Formless]

Or, being fundies, they actively spit on such modern frivolities as love and compassion.

[Surlethe]

Or, being fundies, they actively spit on such modern frivolities as love and compassion.

Don't be retarded. Fundamentalists aren't some breed of soulless monsters out to crush joy and happiness out of the world; they're people like you and me who happen to have a very strong and particular belief system. Nothing more, nothing less. Or were you just posting hyperbolic nonsense instead of trying to make an actual point? PS- I very much doubt love and compassion are "modern" concepts.

In fact, I think I saw something similar on page 1 ...

And that's probably what makes so many Fundies into violent, near-sadistic monsters. (At least when it comes to discipline).

What a load of bullshit. "Violent, near-sadistic monsters"? Have you ever met a fundamentalist, let alone enough to claim some broad understanding of the population? Why is it so goddamned easy for you to paint an entire subculture of humans with a broad brush -- as "violent, near-sadistic monsters", or a "religion [there is no unified fundamentalist 'religion', by the way]... full of nothing but victims"? Do everyone a favor and do some research before you post out of your ass again.

I'm about as far as you can get from fundamentalists on most issues (including corporal punishment), but these sorts of comments are just fucking ridiculous. Jesus Christ.

[Formless]

Its called "humor" Surlethe. I know these people aren't all monsters, and yes love and compassion aren't modern-- although I would point out that their belief system doesn't place much emphasis on either so much as it does to blind obedience to authority, even when said authority tells you to do fucked up things. Hence the joke, as it were.

[Surlethe]

You can be funny, but at least make a decent point while you're at it.

[Formless]

Alright, how about this: Jester was pointing out that this school of christianity is out of touch with modern values, when it may also be that they know what those values are and don't care because of their belief system, because their parents abused them this way when they were kids, and some of them may in fact be sociopathic/sadistic and attracted to this kind of corporal punishment doctrine for that reason. I hoped to get that across with the joke, but I can see why you might have thought I was making a blanket statement about all fundies.

[Alyrium Denryle]

When I do get nervous that my kid will turn out to be a brat if I don't spank her, I think about the times when I was literally scared shitless of getting spanked and how it felt to be ordered not to talk back even when I felt like I simply had a legitimate point or question. I want my relationship with my little girl to be one of love, mutual understanding, and trust, not perfect obedience.

And thus you will end the cycle of abuse.

The Pearls teach that you must break a child's spirit, and that I think is the biggest problem. You must get a child to the point where he (or she) will obey you immediately, without question, no matter what you ask. This and this alone, they believe, will create happy, well-adjusted children:

It creates abused and frightened children... They behave nicely and dont complain about things (and thus seem happy and well adjusted), do well in school etc because they are afraid of being beaten and basically have stockholm syndrome...

[FSTargetDrone]

As a rule, do not use your hand. Hands are for loving and helping. If an adult swings his or her hand fast enough to cause pain to the surface of the skin, there is a danger of damaging bones and joints. The most painful nerves are just under the surface of the skin. A swift swat with a light, flexible instrument will sting without bruising or causing internal damage. Many people are using a section of ¼ inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument. It will fit in your purse or hang around you neck. You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.

I'm sitting here just imagining one of these clods going into a hardware store looking to buy a piece of plastic pipe with which to beat a child. I'm also trying to imagine possessing the mentality to even consider such a thing.

Keep one in every room!

What degenerates these people are.